Port injection on a second rail for big power

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider these are the solutions that i cant wait to figure out because these solutions dont invovle physics. and thats whats gonna get us all excited again. trying to fuel a motor with a system that is physically impossible? thats whats driven us bonkers. i feel like i have accepted jesus and im saved forever once i decided to go PI...lol. it was just this wonderful wieght of my chest to know that all this was finally going to amount to something. and the issues weve faced would be gone forever. that we would have a real car again....lol... praise jesus...paraise the lord for pi!!

I still rather yank out the DI altogether I remember his intake mani retail being alot of money but I believe the SB can control extra injectors and if thats the case then alot of people would be good to go.

[Superstretch18]

LOL. Just doing some research and found this article from Modified Magazine when the MS6 first came out:

2006 Mazdaspeed6 Review - Sport Compact Car Magazine

The interesting bit is here:

Originally Posted by Modified Mag ...There is certainly power to be had from uncorking the exhaust. But once power figures start growing, the issue of whether the aftermarket can meet the challenge of a necessary bump in fueling, given the complexity of the ultrahigh-pressure direct-ignition fuel system, remains. In a direct injection engine, the injectors can only fire during the compression stroke vs. constantly in an engine with port injection, which may explain some of the softness we felt after 6000 rpm as injectors struggled to inject more fuel in less time. Our best advice is to use conventional auxiliary injectors in the manifold for added fueling once beyond the capacity of the DI system. Combine those with a front-mount intercooler and larger turbo and you'll have a legitimate powertrain capable of serious numbers....

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Superstretch18 LOL. Just doing some research and found this article from Modified Magazine when the MS6 first came out: 2006 Mazdaspeed6 Review - Sport Compact Car Magazine The interesting bit is here:

5 STAR POST *****

[Darksun280]

Well don't i feel like a fool lolololol

[ms3guy22]

I look foward the seeing what comes of this and I most def hope its fixes the problem.

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Well don't i feel like a fool lolololol

yep, you, me, Meowbert and Snailburt

[dallasms3gt]

Randy, keep up the good fight Bro.. I can't wait to see this come to fruition, and would love to have 600 FWHP....

I'll be torque steering that bitch with a big ass shit eating grin on my face everyday....

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by whoosh 5 STAR POST *****

Snailburt FTW. Your Ms6 now has +5 defense but -5 agility which means its slow LOL

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Snailburt FTW. Your Ms6 now has +5 defense but -5 agility whihc means its slow LOL

hahaha

seriously man
that post is disturbing to me
I feel weird now for some reason....can't explain it


solidifies the route Randy is so passionate about
add the PI rail and move things forward. it's the way to go

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by whoosh hahaha seriously man that post is disturbing to me I feel weird now for some reason....can't explain it solidifies the route Randy is so passionate about add the PI rail and move things forward. it's the way to go

Well Randy wins this one only because I can't make the man come up with an option that doesn't yet exist

[phailerider]

Modified mag.... What do they know? Lol. And as far as a dcr manifold goes, that's just one option. We are well aware of what will happen if we price ourselves out of the market. And for that I am sure more than one option will exist. And if not by us, then someone else.

[jhershorin]

Should be exciting. Nice randy. Jeff at PG dissapproves? Jake at home sad.

[aaronc7]

Aaron @ NATOR PERFORMANCE approves

[ATE BALLER]

There's going to be at least one other company tackling the manifold. I know that.

[cbspeed3]

i am very intersted to see this happen

[winniep]

RANDY! DOOO EEET!!!! I am with laloosh 100%. At the end of the day, all that remains is the power/timeslip you have. 99% of people won't care if you actually DID shoehorn in that 700HP SRT-4 motor, just that your Mazdaspeed 3 now has 700 horses. And a warranty lol. DI is FTL IMHO. I should have done alot more research on this platform before making the jump :-(. Does DCR guaruntee no smoking on thier motors lol? If so, I may be in line for one......... if my trade in on an SRT-4 Caliber doesn't pan out. I see whoosh has beaten me to it....... Anyway, in summary, Port Injection equals the ability to make more power. Port injection FTW! Direct injection limits power to around 350WHP ish..... DI FTL. You need to let DCR know that they should just do thier thing. Whatever it takes. They are, however, the professionals when it comes to making power :-). Good luck Randy! I really hope you hit your 500WHP and then some!

[Deadman]

^ you have no idea what your talking about. But whatever you say son.... DI in general has nothing to do with a 400WHP mark. Control of the injectors may actually make some headway for DI on this car (as it has on the VW's) Time will tell

[redspeed]

WTF, I can't believe so many people were defending DI. All this people trying to convince palerider not to do this, just crazy! You telling me you got a ms3 for the DI? Additional injectors are used down in PR all the time on NA cars converted to FI. No crying of "cheating" at all.

palerider, wouldn't be easier to tap the oem IM for additional injectors, put a fuel rail, and take the fuel line coming from the tank and tap another line from it to feed the injectors. If the oem in tank pump is not up to the task, upgrade as necessary. An additional injector controler or a cheap pressure switch should do the trick at least in the experimental stages or to keep cost down.

[Driverman5777]

Originally Posted by Deadman ^ you have no idea what your talking about. But whatever you say son.... DI in general has nothing to do with a 400WHP mark. Control of the injectors may actually make some headway for DI on this car (as it has on the VW's) Time will tell

I completely agree...

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Deadman ^ you have no idea what your talking about. But whatever you say son.... DI in general has nothing to do with a 400WHP mark. Control of the injectors may actually make some headway for DI on this car (as it has on the VW's) Time will tell

either way... 400whp is the holy grail for us. thats why its bantered around so much. and for me? at this point 400whp is piss if its supposed to be the highest standard for our cars. and im not gonna bother waiting around for that when we havent come any closer in 2 years since ive owned the car anyway. in other platforms there would be people working on it that matter. here? not so much.... or at least it hasnt come to light yet.

we'll investigate it but in the end... whats the point anyway. 2nd injectors are a must for big power and were not spend a shitton of money improving the di when it will only still come up far short anyway. vws ahave gone pi. cobalts are going pi. we need to go pi.
so di/pi hybrid here i come.... just like everybody else. i want 500-600whp. hell, i want more than that eventually, but 500-600whp will be enough for now. the caliber is at 570whp and i want to play with the red shed. i remeber when that used to matter with this community. and now were the laughing stock.
well no longer. time to get our boogie down.

[Driverman5777]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER I'm willing to bet the stock block could take a little more with PI added.

...explain??

Originally Posted by ms3guy22 Randy, come on now. A race car is a race car! Your right, but it sounds like your wondering in the thread if it was be a main stream idea that every tom dick and hairy would put on his ms3. so what is it, it the PI strictly for all out track cars(non dd). Or is it for the person who wants 450 whp,to wrap around a tree? it PI is for a track car than hell yeah. pouring money into a dedicated project is legit...Btw what does DCR and the history of the srt-4 have to do with the current discussion?

Originally Posted by palerider youre not a pioneer and youd be better off getting it back to stock and getting a nice little cobb flash with that mentality. i go to dcr every week and i see dozens of guys blowing up the phones to get their fucking neons on the lift in there. Dozens of guys wanting to spend 10-20k on their car with a built engine and the works, so they can run around with massive power on the street.... it might not be practical to make this kind of power with guys that want a dd with this current community. but as ms3s slowly drop in value and guys are picking them up for under 10k... then having a 600whp ms3 with a built motor as the project car becomes only that more realistic. and theres a fucking ton of 600whp fwd dds out there.... a TON!!! if you dont think thats true than you dont have the first clue about the aftermarket. not one. and if nobody gets behind this then dcr picked the wrong platform. every other platform that makes serious power has guys willing to spend shittons... rsxs, srts, stis, evos, fords, chevys.... the country is full of guys that drop shittons of cash on their cars to make them go fast and fwd usually has nothing to do with it. is the mazda community different? are they? if they are let me know now. i'll tell darrell we should move on... and me with him. im ashamed of the attitude in here.

wow... Randy are you now the only person that can judge who is/isn't a "pioneer"? WTF is the point of even being called a pioneer except to inflate one's ego... jesus, we are a community modifying a car that we all(at one point) love/ed in order to reach a common goal... some people apparently crave the credit and attention of people thinking that they are a godsend to the community and should be held completely responsible for every achievement made... what would we do without you randy...?

Yes I am happy that you are spending time on the MZR platform and that you are blessed enough to have the time/money to burn on it. I really hope we see great things from everyone involved with this vehicle in the future... But the reality is that we all would be doing what you are if we had the time/money to do so...

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Driverman5777 wow... Randy are you now the only person that can judge who is/isn't a "pioneer"? WTF is the point of even being called a pioneer except to inflate one's ego... jesus, we are a community modifying a car that we all(at one point) love/ed in order to reach a common goal... some people apparently crave the credit and attention of people thinking that they are a godsend to the community and should be held completely responsible for every achievement made... what would we do without you randy...?

read the rest of my comments hotshot. none of us are pioneers. why? because we havent accomplished shit in this community.... nothing. nbothing to brag about... any of us.

im simply responding to ms3guy22 calling me out and saying i wasnt going to pioneer something because i was choosing to go with pi... and he felt it was cheating, not mainstream, too much power, whatever..... he felt nobody would be intersted in pi and for that reason it was a waste. btw... he has started threads on all three boards to further investigate it... so maybe i made an impression...lol

all i said.... is that he, like me, is no pioneer for struggling with di and accomplishing nothing for months, as hes flogged along like a joke.... trying to make a car run right with a little more than 300whp. him and me together...jokes. like others.

NOW.... listen to this too you can pick comments like mine to criticize. in context... i dont have a problem. but if youre gonna run around sucking p3s dick and trying to call me out... and whoring my saloon section for those fuckers to boot... then i will get a little upset. with you.

so. read my posts more carefully before you try to make me sound the fool please? its bad enough we gotta deal with them, that they gotta go out and get little local recruits too.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Driverman5777 .. But the reality is that we all would be doing what you are if we had the time/money to do so...

nice addendum... is that really what you think? would everybody be as foolish with their time and money as me?

i doubt it. whoosh? ate baller? ssinstaller? laloosh? phil? ms3guy22? crazyitaliano? speed3shon? theres a bunch of us. all have accomplished squat.

many others have quit long ago. i think Whoosh in particular would laugh at the notion that he didnt have the time or money i have. he just had more common sense.
thats were i win. im gonna beat ron cause i have no fucking common sense with this car. thats why im going port injection. and thats is what this thread was supposed to be about. hopefully in the end he asks why he didnt think enough of that to do it.

[Arrowpoint]

because we havent accomplished shit in this community

Randy, I think you are selling yourself short here. You haven't reached your goals but what you have done is learn. Whatever you have done and will do in the future will benefit us all from an educational point of view. I haven't gone for big power because I haven't seen a safe way to do it yet, but I expect that your progress will uncover things that will help all of us even though and maybe because you are looking at PI. I guess I'm not a purist because I would consider any reasonably priced way of safely making power with this car short of a different motor. We need options and what you are doing has the potential to yield options.
I hope you get a big payday from this some day soon.

[Haltech]

Well just keep in mind Randy, 90% of the negativity in this thread are from persons who never had a built car in their life, let alone, a slew of them. i think a small number of us who have built 7-20 cars over the last 20 yrs could attest, you dont know if something is going to work or not until you try it. Filling the topic up with negativity makes you look more ignorant, then accomplished.

I would like to see a few of these guys with their 700-1100hp cars chime back in <crickets>

[Larimer]

I think you should do it to see if progress can be made, but it isn't something I'd do to my car personally I don't think. Then again, I'm not looking for big power either. I still think that there's power to be found and eventually the ecu will be figured out and it'll come. Pipe dream? Probably, but I'd rather wait to find out.

[Driverman5777]

Originally Posted by palerider read the rest of my comments hotshot. none of us are pioneers. why? because we havent accomplished shit in this community.... nothing. nbothing to brag about... any of us. im simply responding to ms3guy22 calling me out and saying i wasnt going to pioneer something because i was choosing to go with pi... and he felt it was cheating, not mainstream, too much power, whatever..... he felt nobody would be intersted in pi and for that reason it was a waste. btw... he has started threads on all three boards to further investigate it... so maybe i made an impression...lol all i said.... is that he, like me, is no pioneer for struggling with di and accomplishing nothing for months, as hes flogged along like a joke.... trying to make a car run right with a little more than 300whp. him and me together...jokes. like others. NOW.... listen to this too you can pick comments like mine to criticize. in context... i dont have a problem. but if youre gonna run around sucking p3s dick and trying to call me out... and whoring my saloon section for those fuckers to boot... then i will get a little upset. with you. so. read my posts more carefully before you try to make me sound the fool please? its bad enough we gotta deal with them, that they gotta go out and get little local recruits too.

first... that thread about our spring meet should not have been posted in your section I cannot help that and I am pretty certain you have the power to move/delete it as you see fit. P3 is one of our sponsors at the Spring meet and the question posed in the thread is can I get my parts at your spring meet. I answered that both CP-e and P3 could probably bring him the parts if he wanted to purchase them beforehand... How else do you suggest I should have handled it?

And... Sucking P3's dick? nope... I am kinda not siding in your "dispute"... I am tired of you alluding to it in every fucking post you make... It pops up in random threads everywhere and I am tired of you trying to throw blame and whine about it...You both had fault in the affair get over it and learn from it... stop holding grudges.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider i doubt it. whoosh? ate baller? ssinstaller? laloosh? phil? ms3guy22? crazyitaliano? speed3shon? theres a bunch of us. all have accomplished squat.

Whoa!!!!! Me not accomplish anything? I managed to get rid of all those pesky numbers in my bank account so that it reads a more uniform $00.00 balance. Thats mission accomplished in my book.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Driverman5777 first... that thread about our spring meet should not have been posted in your section I cannot help that and I am pretty certain you have the power to move/delete it as you see fit. P3 is one of our sponsors at the Spring meet and the question posed in the thread is can I get my parts at your spring meet. I answered that both CP-e and P3 could probably bring him the parts if he wanted to purchase them beforehand... How else do you suggest I should have handled it? And... Sucking P3's dick? nope... I am kinda not siding in your "dispute"... I am tired of you alluding to it in every fucking post you make... It pops up in random threads everywhere and I am tired of you trying to throw blame and whine about it...You both had fault in the affair get over it and learn from it... stop holding grudges.

how would i liked you to have handled it? i didnt know you were supposed to "handle" it for me, by suggesting multiple times over that the op contact p3 in a thread in my section. dont play dumb. you knew exactly what you were doing you little punk....

and im not gonna stop holding a grudge because it isnt over yet. they continue to try and sabotage my relationship with cpe, and they fucking blew my engine. they tore down my car without my permission and i was told they used parts of it for installs after i left with the intention of replacing them later. they have thousands of my dollars.... money you think i have briefcases full of apparently. they continue to sit around and bash my ass 24/7 up there. it will be over when it no longer affects me. right now it still does.

im not interested in your willingness to coach my attitude. youre a p3 groupie and your voice with this mess is the voice of a mouse.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Whoa!!!!! Me not accomplish anything? I managed to get rid of all those pesky numbers in my bank account so that it reads a more uniform $00.00 balance. Thats mission accomplished in my book.

well.... we all have pioneered that. we all have pioneered how to spend a ton of money in order to learn what doesnt make our car go fast. hows that?

[Driverman5777]

I actually had no idea that it was even in your section because I saw it when I hit the new post button and it was titled... COLLEGE PARK TUNING. which on this forum is pretty much me. Sorry... you are correct Randy everyone is out to get you.

I think the fact that you are the one bringing up the issue with P3 all the time is kind of childish and no I do not see them badmouthing you on here... at all. Which makes you look foolish. Generally Smearing another business is not good PR. I personally would not buy product from either of you.

I still have no idea how I am a P3 groupie... and the voice of a mouse comment kind of perplexes me.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider well.... we all have pioneered that. we all have pioneered how to spend a ton of money in order to learn what doesnt make our car go fast. hows that?

Meowbert approves this post.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Driverman5777 I actually had no idea that it was even in your section because I saw it when I hit the new post button and it was titled... COLLEGE PARK TUNING. which on this forum is pretty much me. Sorry... you are correct Randy everyone is out to get you. I think the fact that you are the one bringing up the issue with P3 all the time is kind of childish and no I do not see them badmouthing you on here... at all. Which makes you look foolish. Generally Smearing another business is not good PR. I personally would not buy product from either of you. I still have no idea how I am a P3 groupie... and the voice of a mouse comment kind of perplexes me.

whatever ace. youre a p3 groupie and youre taking issue with my childish attitude and you think im foolish. anything else? if i agree will.... you stfu and let us talk about the frustrations of the car, and/or port injection?

[MarkyMark]

All of us are slow.

[Blackspeed]

Has anyone looked into doing something like this..

Hahn Racecraft - Automotive Turbosystems

instead of making a new manifold. its a manifold spacer that tapped for injectors.

Hahn has a sunfire that runs an 11.1 1/4 mile on stock internals with their turbo kit and Port fueler.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed Has anyone looked into doing something like this.. Hahn Racecraft - Automotive Turbosystems instead of making a new manifold. its a manifold spacer that tapped for injectors. Hahn has a sunfire that runs an 11.1 1/4 mile on stock internals with their turbo kit and Port fueler.

Something like that would probably work, but our manifold leaves alot to be desired.

A re-designed manifold will actually help us make power in the upper rpms, not just give us mounting points for the injectors..like that part.. It might be a little more expensive, but it will function much better....

[BlackMS3]

Fuel problem solved.....

[Blackspeed]

i understand that a rediesigned manifold would be better. If cost was a factor though....

just wanted to add this too....That sunfire is now running 10.56

Hahn RaceCraft Sunfire 10.58 @ 139.23 MPH 1/4 mile- Video

Hahn RaceCraft Sunfire 10.58 @ 139.23 MPH 1/4 mile- Video

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed i understand that a rediesigned manifold would be better. If cost was a factor though....

After spending ~$8000 for a built motor and the associated parts and turbo system, your not going to worry about another ~750 for a new manifold if it actually gets you the power you want.

Originally Posted by Blackspeed just wanted to add this too....That sunfire is now running 10.56

It's a great accomplishment to be sure, but I'd expect to see some very fast cars when the engine has been around for 10+ years...

[Superstretch18]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but can't the standback control the additional injectors for a PI application?