Port injection on a second rail for big power

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller It's a great accomplishment to be sure, but I'd expect to see some very fast cars when the engine has been around for 10+ years...

the 2.2 ecotec was introduced in 2002 and had a very limited aftermarket support not unlike the mazda.

I guess your right if you spent 8G on the car already, but does everyone need to spend that much money to get to the point where they need (or could use) additional injectors? From what I understand, these cars run into fuel problems very quick. Spend 2G's on a bigger turbo and instantly you could use more fuel.

How many IM's are already out there? how many of the people spending 8G's on their motor are running stock IM's.

I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, just asking some questions since I'm new to the mazda scene.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Superstretch18 Sorry if this has been asked before, but can't the standback control the additional injectors for a PI application?

The pro fuel controller could be used if we ran the injectors batch fire. I expect we'll end up running them in sequential fire and that will require a different controller...

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed the 2.2 ecotec was introduced in 2002 and had a very limited aftermarket support not unlike the mazda.

The original 2.2 L61 ecotec was introduced in 2000 in the saturn LS1, and has been in continuous use in several models, the same engine in different variation has appeared in at least ten different vehicles between 02 and 08. It has a massivly larger market for aftermarket parts and so I would expect to see some large numbers..

Originally Posted by Blackspeed I guess your right if you spent 8G on the car already, but does everyone need to spend that much money to get to the point where they need (or could use) additional injectors? From what I understand, these cars run into fuel problems very quick. Spend 2G's on a bigger turbo and instantly you could use more fuel.

I don't think you really need to go with the port injection until your running a built motor. We had a very poor track record running big turbos on the OEM shortblock. Frankly, anyone running larger than a gt28 on the OEM bottom end is running on borrowed time--all the fuel in the world isn't going to stop a rod from breaking.. meth and the HPFP can provide all the extra fuel the gt28 needs..
Spend 2G's on a gt3071/gt3076/gt3582--expect to spend ~$5000 on a new bottom end within a year...

Originally Posted by Blackspeed How many IM's are already out there? how many of the people spending 8G's on their motor are running stock IM's.

There are no aftermarket manifolds availble, so all of us ar still running the stock IM.. AFAIK all of us want a different IM wether it incorperates port injection or not..

Originally Posted by Blackspeed I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, just asking some questions since I'm new to the mazda scene.

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller After spending ~$8000 for a built motor and the associated parts and turbo system, your not going to worry about another ~750 for a new manifold if it actually gets you the power you want. Do you need to spend 8G's on your motor before needing extra injectors? From what I understand, these cars run out of fuel fairly quick. Spend 2G's on a bigger turbo and you instantly need aux. injectors. Do the people who dump that much money into their motors still run stock IM's? I'm not really sure how many companies have good IM's for the speed It's a great accomplishment to be sure, but I'd expect to see some very fast cars when the engine has been around for 10+ years...

The 2.2 ecotec was introduced in 2001 and I think was last seen in 2005. It has limited aftermarket support not unlike the speed

[whoosh@Realtune]

did anyone read the new book "quoting for dummies"????

BRB....almost done

[Blackspeed]

sorry for the double post...i guess they dont show up right away.

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by whoosh did anyone read the new book "quoting for dummies"???? BRB....almost done

i didnt get that far yet....only on chapter 2


have you thought about changing your name to Dhooosh ?

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed i didnt get that far yet....only on chapter 2 have you thought about changing your name to Dhooosh ?

that was a good one!
let me find my knee so I can slap it

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed The 2.2 ecotec was introduced in 2001 and I think was last seen in 2005. It has limited aftermarket support not unlike the speed

Originally Posted by WIKI The basic Family II architecture was substantially reengineered in 2000, becoming the Ecotec 2.2, model L61 (or L42 for the CNG version). First appearing in the 2000 Saturn LS1, the L61 spread throughout North American GM products, displacing the Quad 4 and its descendents. Unlike its notably harsh predecessor, the L61 was designed for smoothness. Dual in-block balance shafts were integral to the design, and all accessories were mounted directly to the engine block to reduce vibration. The oil filter was cast into the block with a removable cover and replaceable paper element. Displacement for the 2.2 L engine is 2196 cc (134 cu in) with an 86 mm (3.38 in) bore and 94.6 mm (3.72 in) stroke. Compression is 9.5:1 or 10:1, delivering 135 to 143 hp (101 to 107 kW) and 142 to 152 lb·ft (193 to 206 N·m) of torque. The Ecotec line is manufactured in Tonawanda, New York, Kaiserslautern, Germany, and (for Saturn) in Spring Hill, Tennessee. The L61-powered Saturn Ion replaced the Saturn-powered Saturn S-Series. There are a few variations to the standard L61. The new Chevrolet Malibu uses a version with electronic throttle control and a special unitized exhaust manifold and catalytic converter. The 2003 Saturn L-Series has a high output version with higher (10:1) compression and more aggressive camshaft. The Malibu and Saturn versions also use return-less fuel injection. The 2002 Saturn VUE was the first North American variant of the L61 to be equipped with electronic throttle control, whereas other applications did not arise until 2005 in the Saturn ION and Chevrolet Cobalt. The supercharger and inlet manifold from the 2.0 Ecotec engine can be purchased as an official kit from GM and along with modified software in the ECM, can create a 2.2 supercharged version of this engine. In 2007 the L61 was upgraded with a second generation cylinder case, Coil on plug ignition, 58x crankshaft position sensing and a 32-bit computer. The 2.2 L Ecotec is used in the following cars: Year(s) Model Power Torque 2002–2005 Chevrolet Cavalier 140 hp (100 kW) @ 5600 rpm 150 lb·ft (203 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2004 Chevrolet Classic (Malibu) 144 hp (107 kW) @ 5600 rpm 155 lb·ft (210 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2005–2006 Chevrolet Cobalt 145 hp (108 kW) @ 5600 rpm 155 lb·ft (210 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2007–2008 148 hp (110 kW) @ 5600 rpm 152 lb·ft (206 N·m) @ 4200 rpm 2006 Chevrolet HHR 143 hp (107 kW) @ 5600 rpm 150 lb·ft (203 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2007–2008 Chevrolet HHR 149 hp (111 kW) @ 5600 rpm 152 lb·ft (206 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2002–2004 Oldsmobile Alero 140 hp (100 kW) @ 5600 rpm 150 lb·ft (203 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2002–2005 Pontiac Grand Am 140 hp (100 kW) @ 5600 rpm 150 lb·ft (203 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2002–2005 Pontiac Sunfire 140 hp (100 kW) @ 5600 rpm 150 lb·ft (203 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2005–2008 Pontiac G5/Pursuit 145 hp (108 kW) @ 5600 rpm 155 lb·ft (210 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2003–2005 Saturn L-Series (high output) 140 hp (100 kW) @ 5600 rpm 145 lb·ft (197 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2003–2007 Saturn Ion 140 hp (100 kW) @ 5600 rpm 145 lb·ft (197 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2002–2007 Saturn VUE 143 hp (107 kW) @ 5600 rpm 155 lb·ft (210 N·m) @ 4000 rpm 2001–2005 Vauxhall VX220/Opel Speedster 147 hp (110 kW) @ 5800 rpm 150 lb·ft (203 N·m) @ 4000 rpm Opel/Vauxhall/Holden Astra Opel/Vauxhall/Holden Vectra Opel/Vauxhall/Holden Zafira/Subaru Traviq Following the GM-Fiat agreement, the 2.2 L engine is also used in Fiat Croma Alfa Romeo 159

That's a little longer than 01-05, and a huge number of vehicles compaired to the MZR DISI in the MS6, MS3, and CX-7.

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by whoosh that was a good one! let me find my knee so I can slap it

Thats kinda funny that a stock ecotec block can hold 500+ hp but the mazda block that has forged internals cant make it past 300-350.


how many have blown up bottom ends?

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed Thats kinda funny that a stock ecotec block can hold 500+ hp but the mazda block that has forged internals cant make it past 300-350. how many have blown up bottom ends?

mine didn't blow and I made well over 350whp

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller Spend 2G's on a gt3071/gt3076/gt3582--expect to spend ~$5000 on a new bottom end within a year...

so where is this coming from then?

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed Thats kinda funny that a stock ecotec block can hold 500+ hp but the mazda block that has forged internals cant make it past 300-350. how many have blown up bottom ends?

But how many blocks did different companies blow up to get to that number with the ecotec?? I doubt very much they just hit 500 hp out of the gate with no issues along the way...


The difference here is that mazda has never been big in the tuner industry, and until DCR stepped in we didn't really have any companies with the experience and resources to actually tear these motors down and determine why we are blowing them. All we had was a group of well motivated individuals pushing the platform...and that will never make the kind of progress that a dedicated shop can... Ultimatelty after DCR is finished we may have a proven mod path that makes it safe to push 400+ through the stock bottom end, but as of now we're just not there...

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed so where is this coming from then?

it's what most people think
there are a lot of rod failures out there but you rarely get the full story as to what happened

I don't think this platform has the ability to produce power to justify building a forged short block which is why I stopped my project

I'm sure things will change at some point but for right now
same ole'

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed so where is this coming from then?

I've been on these different forums from the introduction of this engine in the MS6. I bought my car in Febuary of 06, and since then I have only seen one car with a turbo bigger than a gt28 that didn't blow up. Whoosh's car.

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller But how many blocks did different companies blow up to get to that number with the ecotec?? I doubt very much they just hit 500 hp out of the gate with no issues along the way...

1 company.....Hahn. no one lese had a turbo kit ( at least at the time) They might have had issues but no blown blocks.


what is DCR doing?
I thought I had seen at least 1 manifold? midevil maybe?

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Blackspeed 1 company.....Hahn. no one lese had a turbo kit ( at least at the time) They might have had issues but no blown blocks.

Do you think they're going to announce that they blew a motor up? If you do you don't know who things work in this industry..

Originally Posted by Blackspeed what is DCR doing?

Right now all we have are forged parts built to the OEM specs--if there is something wrong with the OEM specs causing the issues, just swapping parts isn't going to get us very far...

They are going to tear apart several of these motors and heads and determine why they are failing, and figure out how to fix the issues, and then manufacture parts to fix the problems... Pailrider just picked up two longblocks from me yesterday, one was knocking, and the other had low compression in two cylinders..

Originally Posted by Blackspeed I thought I had seen at least 1 manifold? midevil maybe?

There may have been some mockups posted, but nothing has been delivered...

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller But how many blocks did different companies blow up to get to that number with the ecotec?? I doubt very much they just hit 500 hp out of the gate with no issues along the way...

Oh man I came from a cobalt and we were killing cyl#04 pistons left and right man it was a nightmare. Things only recently started to calm down within the last year since I left them when hptuners did speed density tunning on them and they can bypass the maf all together.. Gm was cracking down on warranties and cars like mine that had 22k in parts and labor weren't getting any love anymore so I had to set my ship to sea....

[PDXImportRacer]

WOW .. 22k into your Cobalt? I am guessing you took a HUGE hit on that one when you got rid of it.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by PDXImportRacer WOW .. 22k into your Cobalt? I am guessing you took a HUGE hit on that one when you got rid of it.

LOL nah man that was all warranty work. The most my cobalt ever made was 262 whp and ran a 14 flat lol. It was a lemon the dealer tried to buy my car back but I told them if they warranty it no matter how it is when I it get towed in there when i brake it i'll keep it. Bet you they wish they never agreed to that. They had my car for a total of 11 months over a 2 year period. I went 5 months straight in a rental car at 10 dollars a day when they had to replace my transmission axles sub frame all this other shit.

Mind you i put 60 thousand miles on this car in two years 11 of whihc the car was broken and at the dealer. I had 1500 miles on it with in the first 3 days learning to drive stick and in 1 year exact 30 thousand miles. The car fax shows this aswell.

mine was an 05 with a complete 06 interior swaped into it
new trans built from ground up since they had no spare saab trannies back then. Gears 1, 3 and 5 needed to be replaced
new diff since it karate kicked out the side of the trans case
new trans case front and rear.
clutch flywheel
pressure plate
3 axles
5 motor mounts
3 dp with cats
1 mani
1 complete header back system
3 02 sensors
whole knew rebuilt head, valve train (droped 5 valves and 3 lifters), and one exhaust cam since im some how cracked that in half.
new aftertercooler
new aftercooler pump
Needed new piston rings once my oil started to look the color of peanut butter from the coolant mixing in but I decided the cobalt had enough and it now sits in PA where no one is stupid enfough to buy it cause of its mechanical history.

I kept all the dealer shop receipts cause it was was a real work of art.

I'll say this this mazda has EARNED the right to be parted out back to stock for surviving having me as its owner. Beside not being able to make big numbers on this motor i have no real complaints. Cars sturdy as fuck.

[MS6_Auburn_Fan]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 LOL nah man that was all warranty work. The most my cobalt ever made was 262 whp and ran a 14 flat lol. It was a lemon the dealer tried to buy my car back but I told them if they warranty it no matter how it is when I it get towed in there when i brake it i'll keep it. Bet you they wish they never agreed to that. They had my car for a total of 11 months over a 2 year period. I went 5 months straight in a rental car at 10 dollars a day when they had to replace my transmission axles sub frame all this other shit. Mind you i put 60 thousand miles on this car in two years 11 of whihc the car was broken and at the dealer. I had 1500 miles on it with in the first 3 days learning to drive stick and in 1 year exact 30 thousand miles. The car fax shows this aswell. mine was an 05 with a complete 06 interior swaped into it new trans built from ground up since they had no spare saab trannies back then. Gears 1, 3 and 5 needed to be replaced new diff since it karate kicked out the side of the trans case new trans case front and rear. clutch flywheel pressure plate 3 axles 5 motor mounts 3 dp with cats 1 mani 1 complete header back system 3 02 sensors whole knew rebuilt head, valve train (droped 5 valves and 3 lifters), and one exhaust cam since im some how cracked that in half. new aftertercooler new aftercooler pump Needed new piston rings once my oil started to look the color of peanut butter from the coolant mixing in but I decided the cobalt had enough and it now sits in PA where no one is stupid enfough to buy it cause of its mechanical history. I kept all the dealer shop receipts cause it was was a real work of art. I'll say this this mazda has EARNED the right to be parted out back to stock for surviving having me as its owner. Beside not being able to make big numbers on this motor i have no real complaints. Cars sturdy as fuck.

WOW I would have never put up with all trouble. You cracked a cam in half that's the first time I've heard of that happening but I guess it's possible

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by MS6_Auburn_Fan WOW I would have never put up with all trouble. You cracked a cam in half that's the first time I've heard of that happening but I guess it's possible

When the service manager pulled me in to show it to me and ask what happened I shrugged and told him I was on my way to get groceries for my mom when I heard a noise and the car stopped moving. Needless to say I don't think he believed me but we had a deal lol. They weren't happy about me tieing up one of there lifts for a long time that i think pisses them off cause they can't use it to make money. also if your wondering how i killed so many exhaust I was tuned to 13.5 a/fs at my request and the heat would clogs cats left and right and grenade the exhaust system. I made the most power with 13 a/fs and 22 degree of timming 7200 redline. When I sold the car it could barely dyno 220's anymore and had 17 degrees of knock lol.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by MS6_Auburn_Fan WOW I would have never put up with all trouble. You cracked a cam in half that's the first time I've heard of that happening but I guess it's possible

That was common back when GM liked running the power steering pump off the cam..

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller That was common back when GM liked running the power steering pump off the cam..

You maybe on to something not sure how it was set up on the cobalt though i remeber them replacing that as well

[winniep]

Originally Posted by Deadman ^ you have no idea what your talking about. But whatever you say son.... DI in general has nothing to do with a 400WHP mark. Control of the injectors may actually make some headway for DI on this car (as it has on the VW's) Time will tell

o.O? So instead of an SRT-4 motor, someone should swap in a VW motor/ECU? As far as DI on THIS car is concerned, for the moment, it is FTL! With "conventional" injection and built motor for this car you can get gobs more power (potentially) NOW, and not have to wait for the technology to catch up (if indeed, PI is not an example of this already.....). Those of us who have had thier MS3 for a good while and been through miles of posts, research, vendors, parts on our cars, and God forbid, motors (Randy) are sick of the tail chasing. This is a legitamate tuning solution for our cars that should, by all means, be utilized. I personally cannot see what the big deal is with DI, other than a bit better (claimed) fuel mileage, a bit higher compression, ability to run bit higher AFRs, dirty valves and such (sans WI), and ALOT bigger PITA to tune. Like I said, I should have done more research on my car before making the purchase. Although, at that time, this car was still relatively fresh and un explored as far as tuning goes. I just knew it was far quicker (stock) and better looking than my VW GTI was.

I have put on and took off (tried) several different parts for this car....... even ran decent times at the track, but ANY car that has less than 15K miles on it and smokes like these do either deserve a motor swap or to be euthenized. Damn you Mazda lol....... That was the breaking point for me. New car that smokes like a chimney, no thanks.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, I have no idea what I am talking about. Back to your regularly scheduled arguing........

OH! I almost forgot! Randy, you still have that GTI of yours? You could do a motor swap with that baby, since APR has DI all figured out! In that instance you would be able to retain the soul of DI and have the power of an SRT-4! Call DCR and tell them to stop what they are doing!

[phailerider]

Need Fueling Solution On Custom GT35RTurbo + Supporting Mods - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com

nice little read on my vw board. usp is doing port injection now and has moved on past their low pressure upgrade for the 600whp gti. i think it was unreliable dyno queen, and they are moving on. theyve been posting more and more here ond on vortex about their auxilary system with the custom manifold and secondary injectors.

im telling you. EVERY DI car is gonna end up doing this. they just have too.

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I'll say this this mazda has EARNED the right to be parted out back to stock for surviving having me as its owner. Beside not being able to make big numbers on this motor i have no real complaints. Cars sturdy as fuck.

lol can i put this in my sig?

[bf360]

i sat in a caliber srt4 at the auto show, why didnt i get that dam car idk

[bf360]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller I've been on these different forums from the introduction of this engine in the MS6. I bought my car in Febuary of 06, and since then I have only seen one car with a turbo bigger than a gt28 that didn't blow up. Whoosh's car.

How many cars with a turbo bigger than a gt30r have blown up?

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by bf360 How many cars with a turbo bigger than a gt30r have blown up?

I haven't been keeping count, but I can't recall one other than whoosh, that ran a BT for any length of time without blowning up--or recently giving up and going back to stock..

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller I've been on these different forums from the introduction of this engine in the MS6. I bought my car in Febuary of 06, and since then I have only seen one car with a turbo bigger than a gt28 that didn't blow up. Whoosh's car.

cough
2 cars

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Laloosh cough 2 cars

true story

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by whoosh true story

Hey I'm not dead yet.

But I don't count I won't have had it on that long owell.....



HOLLA! Whoosh and Loosh looks like I might have a toy to kick you both up and don't the track with this year after all. I'll probably be busting you both up too with only a welded diff and some mud and snow tires.

[Smoker6]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Hey I'm not dead yet. But I don't count I won't have had it on that long owell.....

Originally Posted by SSinstaller I haven't been keeping count, but I can't recall one other than whoosh, that ran a BT for any length of time without blowning up--or recently giving up and going back to stock..

I think that's you.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 I think that's you.

Haha I think your right. But in my defense I've tried 25+ on this big turbo for 2nd through 6th pulls. tired to blow my self up on some 27 psi dyno pulls as well. Car just don't go anywhere 1-4th at least in my head. Some of my friends I give rides to says its fast but I think its a placebo cause I make peak TQ where ever I shift at and that constant high tq thats still going up makes it feel like your always pulling.

[andre0121]

actually theres a bt speed6 here that is on stock internals, stock fuel pump, since 2006

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by andre0121 actually theres a bt speed6 here that is on stock internals, stock fuel pump, since 2006

With a stock fuel pump its probably to slow to break anything major.

The atp options weren't even out back then I think. So proof or Ban....

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Hey I'm not dead yet. But I don't count I won't have had it on that long owell..... HOLLA! Whoosh and Loosh looks like I might have a toy to kick you both up and don't the track with this year after all. I'll probably be busting you both up too with only a welded diff and some mud and snow tires.

OK what's this all about?
share or Snailburt will attack!!!!

you got a 1G talon or eclipse....right?

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by palerider Need Fueling Solution On Custom GT35RTurbo + Supporting Mods - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com nice little read on my vw board. usp is doing port injection now and has moved on past their low pressure upgrade for the 600whp gti. i think it was unreliable dyno queen, and they are moving on. theyve been posting more and more here ond on vortex about their auxilary system with the custom manifold and secondary injectors. im telling you. EVERY DI car is gonna end up doing this. they just have too.

Hey, lets stop talkin about it and let's do it already!

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Hey I'm not dead yet. But I don't count I won't have had it on that long owell..... HOLLA! Whoosh and Loosh looks like I might have a toy to kick you both up and don't the track with this year after all. I'll probably be busting you both up too with only a welded diff and some mud and snow tires.

babahaa, you silly little ricers!