Questions about driving/shifting ...
 

So I just purchased a new MS3 and totally love it. This thing moves and it handling is awesome if you ask me.

Anyhow this is my first new car and first stick shift. I have a few questions about driving and shifting techniques/habbits. I want to make sure Im not doing anything that will cause excessive wear/ damage to my engine/clutch and transmission. Some of these might seem a bit silly or what not, but I want to make sure I am taking good care of my 20k investment. That and Im still suffering from ''new car over-protectiveness syndom''. I guess I will just list my questions and people can chime in on the ones they want to.

1) How bad are my rookie mistakes? I learned stick on a VW passat. The MS3 shifts much tighter and faster then that. Like any rookie with a stick I have had quite a few stalls, almost stalls, starting in 3rd when I thought i was in 1st, etc. My question is how much damage am I doing? I fear i am taking years off the life of my car. Are there any rookie mistakes I that are particuarily bad?

2)1st gear is the hardest for me. When I start the car usually jumps a bit, either because its reved too much or not enough. Is this something I need to worry about? Im workign on getting my starts smoother. Also I usually let up on the clutch very slowly? Will this wear it out faster?

3) I know riding the clutch while coasting is bad. When I coast i just pop it into nuetral. However when manuvering in my driveway, backing up up, creeping in traffic or up to a toll booth during rush hour, I often wind up only letting the clutch out about half to 3/4 of the way. For moving short distance (1-2 car lengths at a time) should i be fully engaging it?

4)When just sitting at a stop light, is it ok to keep the clutch down or should it be in neutral with the clutch released?

5)often when driving through parking lots or short distances I will drive slow, in 1st or 2nd. I keep the revs below 3k while doing this. Any reason to be alarmed here?

6) Any tips on getting through first smoothly would be a blessing.

Ok I think thats it for now... Any and all tips and help is much appreciated. I drive 84 miles each day and I want to make sure im taking good care of my baby as I hope to have her for a while.


Thanks

-Pete

1) I'm not sure how much damage is done when you stall. As you learn, you'll stall less and less, I don't think you'll do any massive damage to the car while you're learning.

2) As you drive it you'll learn the engagement point and get smoother. Pull the clutch out slowly and it'll help you with smoothness. You'll wear the clutch out a little more but thats really not a big deal and you won't notice it until the car is higher mileage.

3) Thats fine, you don't have to fully engage every time you move, just don't go 12 miles with the clutch halfway engaged.

4) I've heard that keeping the clutch in can cause you to wear out your pilot bearing faster. I'm not sure if thats the case or not, but I'm lazy and I just keep it in neutral.

5) should be fine.

6) practice practice practice practice. One thing you can try is sitting on a flat road, don't use any gas, and slowly let the clutch pedal out until you start to feel the car engage. the rpms will drop a bit and you'll feel the car move forward a bit. Then once you can bring the clutch right out to the engagement point easily and just give it a little gas so the rpms don't jump up or dip too much, you'll be smooth.

If you're going to coast, you should leave it in gear. This allows you to move without using any fuel. Since the manual transmission uses gears and physical contact between the wheels and the engine, the wheels will keep the engine turning without using any gas. This is why people see instantaneous MPG's go to 99+ while coasting in gear. If you coast in neutral, you use fuel to keep the engine idling until you start going again.

Also, if you're freaked out about starting in 1st on an incline, pull the handbrake up and use it to hold the car while you move your foot from the brake to the gas. Then let the handbrake down while you're easing out the clutch and easing onto the gas.

I learned manaul right before I got the MS3 as well. I learned on a friends Mustang GT, that thing is easy as hell compared to the MS3. That was also the first time I ever got pulled over by cops. Someone in the strip mall I was practicing at called the cops because it looked suspicious that we were driving around in circles. Got pulled over by not 1, but 3 cops!

I did the same stuff as you at first, put it into 3rd thinking it was first plenty of times. Sometimes I actually got it going, dunno how though lol. Also stalled a lot. I'm at about 21k miles and my clutch seems to be fine, it'll probably die tomorrow just cuz i said that. :pat:

First thing you should do is figure out the best seating position. Find something comfortable that lets you keep your back/shoulders fully back against the seat while operating the clutch/shifter. If you're not fully back against the seat when the car starts to move forward its gonna push you back and probably screw up your clutching and make the car jerk or buck.

Then after that just do as was said above for learning first gear.

Tip for driving smoothly: Be gentle with the shifter. For some stupid reason I find that I drive really smoothly if I very lightly pull/push on the shifter when changing gears. After a while once you get the timing down right you'll even feel the car kind of sucking the shifter into the next gear.

Take it from me I have experience(3 years tractor trailer driver, also been driving performance cars with manual for 16 years and have never burned up a clutch ever)Keep your foot off the clutch as much as possible except when changing gears. Riding and slipping can kill a clutch quick. Dont sit with your foot on the clutch at stop lights. Be careful downshifting! Going to low of a gear can blow things up. Never force into gears. As far as first gear you only need to give it a little bit of gas and as soon as you feel it engage let it out smoothly. Not the best car for your first manual car in my opinion. Remember, get off that clutch! Good luck. I have seen rookies burn clutches up quick.

Some words of encouragement... This is my first manual transmission vehicle too. My friend taught me on a 1988 toyota pickup. The difference is like night and day with this car. I remember my first 3 days with the MS3 were pretty rocky. I had probably a 30% chance of stalling out at lights, and when I did launch I was revving too high and the car would take off like a mad bull. I'd say after 3 weeks you'll be able to drive around passengers without giving them whiplash. Then after a month you'll be speed racer :). I remember at first I was worried I might not get the hang of it or that it would be annoying to drive a stick, but it's still fun and you will get the hang of it.

My advice is to go out to a flat, paved road where there isn't much traffic. Perhaps a Sunday would be best. Just practice starting in first gear. It's all about learning where the clutch engagement point is. I wouldn't worry too much about ruining your car or anything. And I'd say that once you get more familiar with the clutch, you can move on to downshifting when coming to a stop light, but right now just pop it in neutral and use the brake to slowly stop. But yeah, get out there in that deserted business park back street on a Sunday and get some practice.

Or, even better you can just leave the car in gear while coming to a stop at a stop light and put it in neutral somewhere around 1000rpms or before it starts to stall. So yeah, if you're going to coast do it while in gear cuz your if you're in neutral your engine is idling and wasting gas. Plus if you coast while in gear your exhaust will reward you with a nice tone!

Coasting in gear is awesome, especially in stop and go traffic. You just need to leave a bit of a gap between you and the next car, works best in 2nd and 3rd gear. When the cars ahead of you are slowing down take your foot off the gas a little or all the way depending on the amount of engine breaking you need to slow without ever stopping. Just watch out for those people who jump into the gap you leave.

It all depends on what you're doing. Clutches are made to be slipped and stalls are going to happen. Your car is designed to be durable through all of this, however, everything is damaging.

Stalling occurs when the clutch engages a gear and the engine speed does not match the road speed. The result is a shock through the entire driveline while is as unpleasant for the car as it is for you. But, just like it isn't killing you, it isn't killing the car. It will wear parts prematurely, but it shouldn't hurt the car too bad.

Manufacturers know this happens and they design their parts to live through it (or atleast should).

Take a look at how a clutch works. The more you understand it's operation the easier it will be.

Think of your clutch like your brakes. How often you brake, combined with how hard you brake designate the life of your brake pads. Your clutch is the same way. Every time the engine is turned on, and the clutch is either not full engaged or disengaged, it is slipping. Slipping wears your clutch much like braking wears your brakes. How much it wears your clutch is up to you and your input.

Braking from 140mph to 50mph in 200 feet is going to wear your brakes a lot more than braking 60 down to 40mph in 100 feet. The same holds true for your clutch. Engaging first at 1000rpm is a lot easier on your clutch than engaging it at 3500rpm.

Which brings me to the next question...

You should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever need to ride your clutch. Go to a parking lot and learn how to engage first gear without using the throttle at all. It's a seat of the pants feeling, but you will be able to get it. Once you get that, begin to teach yourself throttle control. With first gear fully engaged and minimal throttle usage, your car will be moving slower than the converter creep that you're used to. It's much more controlable, which is the advantage of a manual transmission. You have control over your car that 80% of the other vehicles on the road do not have.

Moving very short distances on a level surface is the only time it's not absolutely imperative to engage first. Anything more than a car length, however, I'd put it in gear.

Your clutch pedal controls a throw-out bearing. The bearing will wear like any other bearing. When coming to a stop sign, it's best to disengage the clutch and put the shifter in first at about 10mph, come to a complete stop, then let off of the clutch and go. For a stop light, come into the stop, do the same thing with putting the shifter in first at 10mph with the clutch disengaged, come to a stop, then put it in neutral and let off the clutch.

Learning to downshift and engine brake will pay off in dividends. You'll feel like a god the first time you drive home in rush hour without touching your brakes... and you'll feel like a moron the first time you get rear-ended by a soccer mom who has no depth perception. It all has to do with the control you have on your car though. Put the miles on and invest the hours in learning it, and it will pay off.

This is good practice for engine break-in. I'd get my oil changed around 500 miles, however, then start getting a little heavier on the engine to finish the break-in. While cruising, the higher gear the better, but be sure to be able to get into a gear with atleast 1800revs when you need to actually put a load on.

The lower the revs, the less the engine is working, the better the economy you're going to get. Just don't get too carried away with it. Especially while learning... you need to be able to call on the gear your need, quickly, as to not lug your engine.

This is a heavy, sporty, clutch. Especially for a cheap little econo-car. Teach yourself true throttle control, learn how to engage first without using the accelerator, learn how to downshift. The better you understand the mechanics of your car, the easier it will be to drive smoothly.

Guys I'm a bit confused. Have engine control systems gotten so smart that when you coast in gear they cut off all fuel to the engine?

I was raised on carburated and not very fancy throttle body stickshift vehicles. To my thinking once you take your foot of the gas wether you are in gear or not the fuel rate goes to the standard idle amount. If so you will coast farther and longer in neutral than if you leave it in gear. In my mind unless I want engine braking for some reason I will coast in neutral.

If things have changed please let me know.

Ed..

No it's still the same principal. The idea is that once you're in neutral you have zero control over the engine. Keeping the car in gear to a certain point helps you maintain control at the price of about two seconds of fuel economy. It's all dependant on the scenario, but it's better to keep the control until you're about two to five seconds away from stopping completely.

thats the best part, especially in parking garages ive set off a couple car alarms lol

Doc I guess you don't coast as much as I do.

If I am in traffic with other vehicles there is only so much you can do. There are many circumstances; however, such as downhill or coming off an expressway ramp to a light that I can easily coast for a hundred yards or more. Unless I want to be in gear taking a turn or so most times I will either push on the clutch or slip it into neutral.

Ed

No, I understand what you're saying and that's fine. The point I'm making about downshifting is if you're in a situation where you could concievably have to accelerate quickly you want to stay in gear. It's the difference between coasting up to an empty toll booth and downshifting from third to second in bumper to bumper traffic when you see that people are slowing down. My explaination above was poor.

Doc I understand what you are saying and it is probably the reason why they tell you on owners manuals and such not to coast out of gear. I never really understood that logic. I can understand if there is traffic and such but many times if I am coming up on a light and can see it far enough away or coming down off an expressway ramp I will coast. In these circumstances I would have plenty of time to pop it in gear if I need power.

If not once you coast a bit you will start lugging the engine and will either have to pop it out or downshift anyway.

Ed.

Doc made some good points but there is no reason to engine brake in this car. Engine breaking is great for commercial trucks (which I drive 500 miles a day) and I do it all of the time but more stressful on the tranny for cars. You may save your brakes more but they are way cheaper to fix.

Newb question here... Lug the engine?

It's when you're in too high a gear for the speed you're going and the engine sounds like it wants to die. Go try to drive 15mph in 4th and you'll know what lugging is like.

Bottom line there is less stress on an engine during acceleration in a lower gear. If you are carrying a large load or accelerating briskly then you want to be in a lower gear.

In my case I avoid going less than 2000 RPM or so when you are accelerating especially in a taller gear such as 4th and above. If you are cruising along you can stay in the 1500 -2000 rpm range as long as you are not requiring fast acceleration - otherwise downshift.

Ed.

There seems to be some confusion between coasting in neutral and in gear. If you're in neutral, your injectors are still injecting fuel to stay at idle. In a MANUAL TRANSMISSION ONLY, there are direct physical links between the wheels and crankshaft (i.e., wheels to axle to transmission to clutch to flywheel to crankshaft) all physically touching each other. This means that when the wheels are turning and the car is in gear, the engine is turning as well. So while you're coasting in gear the ECU cuts fuel and your wheels and momentum are keeping your engine going. You can see this happen if you look at the mpg computer.

KaiserSoze I think wether you are in gear or not I believe that you will get the same amount of fuel as you coast.

Ed

Haaaah..As I was reading this, I almost busted out laughing. I have an 03 Lightning, and run pretty much open headers, with Hi-flow Cats on a 550HP Super Charged V-8.

The parking garage at my office building is 7 stories. I can park on the top floor, and crank "The Beast", and set off every single alarm in the garage as I am descending through the garage.... It is hilarious....:shhh:

I've personally seen it happen on fuel mileage gauges on manual transmission cars. The fuel mileage goes to infinite b/c you're not using any fuel when you coast in gear.

I think you're using some fuel while coasting in gear just not as much as idling. I have a dashhawk and i've seen the engine loads anywhere from 4-10% depending on gear and incline/decline while coasting. Idling, the engine load is around 15-20%. While i'm cruising on the highway in 6th gear with cruise control on the engine load is anywhere from 15-25%. So, if you're idling it's almost equivlent to driving on the highway at 65mph with cruise control on (no AC).

The dashhawk is a good way to help you get better MPG, just add the engine load PIDs and then you just make sure you keep the load at less than 25% as much as possible.

I was wrong actually, I went out and tested again using the dashhawk but added the PID "Fuel Injection mg/cyl". When foot is off the gas and you're still in gear there's 0 fuel going into the cylinders. At idle there's about 550mg/cyl.

Hey Thanks for the good responses. Much appreciated.

I have yet another question. After about a month now with the car things are getting more fluid and fun.

One thing I have noticed, and i'm not quite sure what causes this, is sometimes it wont let me shift into first or second.

The problem seems to show up if I make a mistake in my shifting, usually in a mid range gear like 2-4. Seems to happen around 30-40 mph. Any how when this happens it feel like I am shifting without using the clutch, only in reality I have the clutch pedal all the way down. As I try and shift in I can hear what im guessing is the flywheel make a whirling noise, and if I try and force it it feels like I am griding the gears.

It is almost as if the car has a safety mechanism to keep me from going into first and sometimes second at certains speeds.

Is this supposed to happen or is something wrong?

-Pete

That is typical in most manual transmission cars now a days you can't get into first above a certain MPH to protect shit from going boom. You can force it in if you really want to but that is not a smart thing to do. some modern cars still don't use a synchro in 1st gear and that is the reason you hear the howling noise and it feels like the clutch is still out.