The real reason people are breaking rods

[superskaterxes]

This woukd explain why people like jumping jackson have blown with the gt28 and people like whoosh survived on the 35.....

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes This woukd explain why people like jumping jackson have blown with the gt28 and people like whoosh survived on the 35.....

what would this explain

that this is just another theory with no proof?

[wassup61]

Originally Posted by LaDouche what would this explain that this is just another theory with no proof?

You are driving a BMW with a better designed rod?

[Jessed87]

This is really interesting info. My friggin head is spinning when I read about all of these threads about why engines are blowing. Although this does seem to be the most likely idea yet, (and the oldest) I'd still like to see a little more conclusive evidence to set my mind at ease. But thanks for the info!

[Laloosh]

thats not a bmw dyno. Thats a caliber srt4 dyno, making 200 mroe wtq than we are and not blowing like we are....sole reason, the engine is stronger.

We've gone through so many theories already its not even funny.
manifolds blow cars
balance shafts blow cars
oil flooding? lmao idiot
no meth equals boom?
no fuel down low equals boom
spiking down low equals boom
i agree that these contribute to blown engines, but they would blow in the first place if the motor was stronger.
Add rods, no boom period. The internals suck, end of story already.

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Ok ... lets say the internals suck ... lets say it ... instead of being a dick and harping about it ... how about some tuning suggestions to MINIMIZE the risk until one is ready to build their engine.

case in point ... here is the WGDC map for this car ... WHY is it requesting it open MORE in the lower rpms. Seems to me thats a good place to start to limit it's opening.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by LaDouche what would this explain that this is just another theory with no proof?

What theory is without proof? The fact that people are blowing motors? Or the fact that the MS3 makes a lot of torque at very low RPMs? Or the fact that low RPM torque is putting stress on the internals?

Not even that CSRT makes 325 ft lbs of torque at 3000RPM. So what's your point?

[Laloosh]

im sorry, but at 3600 it makes over 400...mute point if you ask me.

btw keep in mind where the runs were started grasshoper. start that caliber run at 2k and i bet my ass its gonna make more tq down low

[6SpeedTA95]

Great thread lex

[serium]

Get new rods and our engine wont fail (period)

[Scatt Nasty]

Originally Posted by serium Get new car and our lives wont fail (period)

fixed.

[DaleNixon]

So that's it? Just get some forged rods and let the car knock like a motherfucker and push 15:1 AFR at 20PSI? Can I install these rods under a tree with my screwdriver set?

[glocK23]

Originally Posted by DaleNixon So that's it? Just get some forged rods and let the car knock like a motherfucker and push 15:1 AFR at 20PSI? Can I install these rods under a tree with my screwdriver set?

yes.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by GQ_WhiteMS3 Ok ... lets say the internals suck ... lets say it ... instead of being a dick and harping about it ... how about some tuning suggestions to MINIMIZE the risk until one is ready to build their engine. case in point ... here is the WGDC map for this car ... WHY is it requesting it open MORE in the lower rpms. Seems to me thats a good place to start to limit it's opening.

The reason the WG duty is higher at lower RPM is to promote spool in the stock configuration. The car was calibrated to have very little turbo lag and give you the kick in the pants when you punched it even at lower RPMs. Once you add flow mods you need to recalibrate this. Start by taking 10% off and see what effect it has. This will depend on your breather mods. You can also try limiting boost using the throttle based boost limit table.

Originally Posted by LaDouche im sorry, but at 3600 it makes over 400...mute point if you ask me. btw keep in mind where the runs were started grasshoper. start that caliber run at 2k and i bet my ass its gonna make more tq down low

You see Ladouche, the issue that you can't get through your thick skull is that even if the car has weaker rods than a CSRT4, people want to make the best out of it. With 350 ft lbs of torque in the right place on the RPM band the car can be safer and make more whp. WTF is your solution? Sell the car? That doesn't work for everyone.

So here, we are solving the real issue of current (and future) Mazdaspeed owners. You opted out, no one cares, k, thanks, bye.

[Haltech]

There is no tuning on the market that is going to fix this issue for you... You need to replace the weak components, period.

[DaleNixon]

So pretty much everything Palerider and Darrel Cox Racing are saying about this car is bullshit?

[Haltech]

Im not sure what they are saying, but if you replace the internals with forged, you are good to go assuming your additional fueling is secured for higher hp levels.

Personally, i wouldnt build a forged bottom end unless i could easily get to 500hp.

[bf360]

I remember dcr saying they think the ms3 bottom end is stronger than the caliber

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by 94jedi So the next question is this- has anyone w/ aftermarket forged rods blown yet?

I think Mrlilguy broke a piston, and Palerider spun a bearing, but no catastrophic failures...

[Lex]

Originally Posted by bf360 I remember dcr saying they think the ms3 bottom end is stronger than the caliber

The MS3 rods are quite heavy ... as heavy or heavier than SRT-4 ones. They are 630 grams without bolts. So there's certainly some good meat on them. I consider them on the same playing field as most other modern turbo 4 banger forged rods.

[spheed3]

Lex, what year MS3/6 rods did you get to inspect? I'm curious if Mazda had made any changes over the years..

[lidokrantz]

all this makes sense to me... ATM For folks that want to drive there Speed for longevity...are we saying now the best thing to do is to gradually build speed to 3000 rpm then hit it hard to 5500.....rather than going WOT from low rpms??

Lastly..and i have felt this from day 1... that there is not much room in tis platform to make big power in its stock form unless the engine is moded for it.....everything stock is calibrated to run damn near its level for longevity.....as Lex mentioned add a few bolt-ons and a mild tune and indeed you are at 300 TQ or better....and this engine has told us it can't take it for extended runs over and over again till finally something gives..
LaDouch may have some keen insight and really most welcome it... i do... but why the fuck does it have to be so friggin negative on every post...Brother you have lots of good shit to add, why do you feel it necessary to remind all of us you think this car sucks??? How many times do we have to hear you call out cars shit??? Mazda did not design it for 300 Whp they designed it to be a reasonably safe car at stock 265hp levels...and judging by the engine failure rate...stock cars are holding up rather well Maybe this car in stock form is not as strong as a Caliber, BMW, Subbie....and does not have the room for that much HP/TQ improvement in its stock form,,,..but if built right i do believe it can be made to be reliable, with a good deal more power and also last a long time...i for one would be very happy with a 300-350 WHP caR...IN FWD this would be fine indeed.more than that would be pushing it as a DD in FWD..TQ steer.......Now i am hoping that we can at some point with the help of LEX, OTHER MEMBERS, YOU come up with a positive approach to make moded cars stronger in the right area to take away a good percentage of the engine failures ...If it is as simple as the rods being replaced...damn thats great and i certainly would do this FIRST before i go for bigger power again.. before i take the big power journey and give up my warranty....i would sleep better at night knowing i was doing it right .

[SSinstaller]

Some of us have telling people for years that part throttle boost is the devil, and not to go WOT until >3000 RPM.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by spheed3 Lex, what year MS3/6 rods did you get to inspect? I'm curious if Mazda had made any changes over the years..

These were from Mark's motor that he built. He can chime in if he knows. I have not seen any difference in any of the rods from one year to the next that members have posted.

[lidokrantz]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller Some of us have telling people for years that part throttle boost is the devil, and not to go WOT until >3000 RPM.

agreed...LaDouch mentioned this as well well over a year ago....and i certainly took his advice...but by part throttle boost.....how do we avoid it without going WOT all the time?? I drive the car pretty lame usually and then take it up a little bit and shift or hammer it to 5000 rpms and shift..No problems so far...And my style of driving is not to go WOT all the time///it does not work for me as i like to drive most of the time a little over the speed limit, but i do like to get to the speed limit quick if possible..is this bad?? and lots of cops in my neck of the woods and i really do not like to get tickets...or hassled

[6SpeedTA95]

I've wondered for awhile if there isn't something in the mfg process that is biting on a few of these cars weakening the rods. Obviously its not affecting many cars in the grand scheme of things, but it seems to be affecting more than one would like.

[Haltech]

Powder Rod process is extremely strong and cost effective for whatever their tolerances are
built for. However, there is no marginal room for more power like on other engines out there.

You guys forget that Dodge did their homework. They would be at irwindale speedway EVERY thur night for well over a year, testing the combo on what was to become, the SRT4. Weve seen them splatter engines on stage 2 packages before beefing up their rods. I use to harass them to roll that slug srt-10 off the trailer and run it for pinks

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Haltech Powder Rod process is extremely strong and cost effective for whatever their tolerances are built for. However, there is no marginal room for more power like on other engines out there. You guys forget that Dodge did their homework. They would be at irwindale speedway EVERY thur night for well over a year, testing the combo on what was to become, the SRT4. Weve seen them splatter engines on stage 2 packages before beefing up their rods. I use to harass them to roll that slug srt-10 off the trailer and run it for pinks

I would guess Mazda also did their homework...I think if it were an inherent problem with the rods we'd see a lot more cars blowing up...fact is we're not seeing a whole lot of them given how many are out there and plenty of people drive them hard and I would guess thousands go WOT without downshifting...you'll find this is common practice amongst non enthusiast individuals because they think revving the motor is hard on it, but got WOT in 6th at 55mph isn't

So I think its obvious there's an issue with the rods and as you said there may not be a whole lot of tolerance for modding, but I don't think its from lack of homework...I wouldn't be surprised if Mazda has already found the issue, fixed it and didn't say anything figuring many of the motors popping will be modded to hell and void the warranty and the ones that blow that aren't modded and were maintained are so few and far between that its better to just fix it going forward as opposed to making any sort of mention of it.

[bf360]

is there anyway we can inspect the differences in ecus between the 07-08 and 08.5 and 09? i feel like they changed the ecu calibrations because from what ive noticed the newer cars dont have that huge torque spike like the others do maybe they changed the wastegate or load settings down low in the newer models? take a look at dynos between the different years

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by bf360 is there anyway we can inspect the differences in ecus between the 07-08 and 08.5 and 09? i feel like they changed the ecu calibrations because from what ive noticed the newer cars dont have that huge torque spike like the others do maybe they changed the wastegate or load settings down low in the newer models? take a look at dynos between the different years

I think Aaron has looked into this a little...

[SneakyP86]

I was thinking of trying this on a set of rods. I believe our rods are forged but I dont think they have been to the extent they need to be. Cryogenics is supposed to help take out or fuse some of the imperfections in metal if done correctly. Although it might not be cost efficient as you would need a new set of stock rods and than the cost associated with the cryo process might make it more cost effective to just buy a good set of forged rods. The only reason I was thinking of this is the pistons themselves seem to be fine.

Cryogenic Processing, REM Gear Polishing, Powder Coating, Ceramic Coating, Sandblasting

[bf360]

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...cobaltdyno.jpg
http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/o...c/DSC01508.jpg

cobalts make the same torque we do around the same spot but tend to make that and hp alot easier, btw did i mention no blowing of their motors? not putting you down lex but i think our issue is more a tuning issue than an actual part issue

[ToledoSpeed3]

Originally Posted by Jarods7920 You think its too high? I think you are a little off your rocker. DI is designed to be able to withstand high compression because of the fuel being sent into the chamber directly as it adds a cooling effect. Lower compression gives you a greater ceiling for tuning thats about it.

Originally Posted by Haltech This has NOTHING to do with compression ratio.. Its about cylinder pressure. Same thing with rods, rods are rated for a certain psi, even forged. Mazda did not design the car with much overhead in it. Meaning, they have 15% over their rated power and thats it.

First, let me say, I agree with you Haltech and many others...its pretty obvious that the rods are the weak point and precious little is going to protect us against this limiting factor when striving for more power. Like Lex said, they are what they are.

Here is why I brought up our static compression ratio in this discussion. 1 psi of boost doesn't equal 1psi of added static compression. When you increase the static compression ratio of a motor by 1 psi, the cylinder pressure (i.e. load) goes up exponentially during the compression stroke. It's much more efficient to add the linear pre-cooled boost pressure as you can't remove the heat created by the higher compression ratio in the cylinder, its too late. I can't recite the equations off the top of my head, but I remember that if you compare 1psi of added static compression vs. 1 psi of added intercooled boost pressure, the static pressure will generate a shite more cylinder pressure (like 5 times more for that one psi), not to mention some serious temperature increases during the compression stroke. Yes, DI will help lower the temps, and so will meth, but it probably won't overcome that 1 psi of added static compression.

Who can say this isn't a participating factor in the differences between, say the CSRT motor and our motor and what their limitations are? In my mind (please prove me wrong if you think I am off my rocker), this is the difference between reliably running 15psi vs. 24psi during spurts on these internals...provided we have enough fuel and the tuning to make it work.

On a positive note, at least we have that 9.5:1 compression ratio to carry us through when we lower our boost at lower RPMs to protect our motors.

[killa cam]

interesting read lex. thank you.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by bf360 http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/o...cobaltdyno.jpg http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/o...c/DSC01508.jpg cobalts make the same torque we do around the same spot but tend to make that and hp alot easier, btw did i mention no blowing of their motors? not putting you down lex but i think our issue is more a tuning issue than an actual part issue

How long are these guys lasting at those power levels? I can't find much info on the SS TC since GM went under and SS was disbanded early in production. The LNF engine is a nice one.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by Lex How long are these guys lasting at those power levels? I can't find much info on the SS TC since GM went under and SS was disbanded early in production. The LNF engine is a nice one.

idk well see but ive seen a ton of cobalt dynos and there all up there around those numbers and havent heard of anyone blow, honestly i think your theory is right, but ecu also is playing a major role in the problems were having

[Jarods7920]

Originally Posted by ToledoSpeed3 Who can say this isn't a participating factor in the differences between, say the CSRT motor and our motor and what their limitations are? In my mind (please prove me wrong if you think I am off my rocker), this is the difference between reliably running 15psi vs. 24psi during spurts on these internals...provided we have enough fuel and the tuning to make it work. :

Well with all this talk of caliber srt4s and evos and the like; we are comparting apples to oranges. Lets start comparing a DI motor to a DI motor instead of a port iinjection motor to a DI motor. I mean lets compare static compression ratios.

CSRT4 is 8.6:1
EVO 8 is 8.8:1

Cobalt SS (TURBO) 9.2:1 and the achiece a max pressure of about 17-19 psi stock
Fiat 1.8L DI turbo motor 9.5:1
Ford 3.5L ecoboost 10:1

I mean they didnt just throw high compression pistons in there because they thought it was cool one day. These engines are engineered for higher compression for a reason. Its not the compression. It weak rods and very little headroom in their design. Until we replace the item that fails time and time again...these will remain nothing more than theories. When someone has the gaul to replace the rods with a better set we will know the next limiting factor in this engine. For now thats the only concrete thing we have are broken/bent rods over and over again.

[superskaterxes]

I think I'm making the latest peak torque of any stock turbo car

[bova]

thats because christian knew what he was doing when he tuned your car, haha

[DaleNixon]

Make big torque later in the powerband. I get it. So how exactly do we do this with ATR?