SEX!! with a Carbon fiber Intake Manifold
 

No this thread is not about sex... unless you would like to have sex with an aftermarket CARBON FIBER INTAKE MANIFOLD!!!

No I'm not kidding.
I have been working on a prototype for a while now and just got the drive to finish it.

I have settled on a MZR-R style manifold.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/assem1-1.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/assem2-1.jpg

velocity stacks will be 6061 T-6 Alum. as well as the other metal components.

Here are some projected flow paths.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap1-3.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap2-2.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap3-3.jpg

UPDATE

Sorry guys I've been bust lately.

I got am assembly together of what the plumbing might look like.
The plumbing has directed a lot of air flow to the left of the intake starving the other cylinders (Back to the drawing board) I'm going to make up a set of air straighteners in the mani to try and fix thing. If that doesn't work then I'll remake the model.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap1-4.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap2-3.jpg

This flow test was done @40PSI(120*F) with 06speed6's flow numbers from his big valve head. Still not real world but pretty damn close. You can see at 40PSI the 3.25" plumbing is becoming the restriction.

EDIT: After thinking about the air flow being directed to the left, I wonder in the stock mani is experiencing the same out come?? Possibly another factor in the blown engine saga???

Suggestions are welcome once your done touching your self.

UPDATE:

I'm broke.. lol. what else is new? I'm currently looking for a second job, but the repo man commeth and taketh away... my wife's car that is (2004 mazda 3 sedan, orange).

Needless to say the manifold has been put on the back burner.
I've finalized the design and I'm very happy with it.

I have a shop in town that is going to print the plenum in 3D for me so I can make a mold to wrap the CF around.
I've also scored some machine time at a friends shop. So once we get back on our feet and have some disposable income I can get this thing done.
I'm going to machine a mandrel up to press the runners on. The pipe will be heated up and pressed onto the mandrel shaping it perfectly to the port.
Once the runners are welded to the flanges the rest just bolts together. I should be able to make different runner lengths quite easily.

So that's where I'm at. It will get done, just not before Christmas.

interesting

oooh fap fap fap fap fap

so are you mass producing these?

if you are what is the price looking like?

any expected date of when they'll be done?

looks really interesting.

Take "Mazda" off and put "Nator" plz.

Looks good man, lemme know when u need a hand.

dude this looks awesome, nice work!

Don't know, don't know, 2 weeks...lol don't know

I need a designated beer holder... lol

Thanks.

Your title is misleading, Not the first time I have been let down with promises of sex though..


P.S. Would flushmount runners within the plenum be better? like a flush velocity stack on each runner

Edit: Didn't read that they already were velocity stacks, but still sticking with the flush mount comment

I'll change it and see.

Here's a NATOR pic
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...d404/nator.jpg

Also, You think changing the angle/size of the end(Oppsite Inlet) would help? I'm just looking where some of the dead air areas are. But, sometimes those dead areas effectively help air move away from a restriction. Agh, This is why I didn't choose the engineering path, this kind of stuff would keep me up at night.

i like your honesty. better than some of the vendors we have/have had. lol.

The simulation is just a projected path simulation, So I won't know more until I get a working prototype.
However, this is the 7th position that I have put it inlet at and this one give the best projected flow between the runners.

EDIT: I guess I could put it in the same position as the MZR-R intake.. but it didn't make sense to put unneeded bends in the piping.

Wow nice work! You need to be making parts instead of some vendors!

Ok here are the new projected flow paths.

original
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ress_snap1.jpg

raised lip
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...elocitylip.jpg

Flush lip
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...elocitylip.jpg

The velocity on the flush lip slows down in runners #1 and #3 giving dead spots. Also the flush design starves runners #2 and #3.

I may have not understood what you were saying. Is this what you meant by "flush", or did you mean just a square edge?
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...kemanifold.jpg

Better yet
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...emanifold2.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap1-1.jpg

This thing looks sick.

I love solid works. I just started toying with it, I'm going into mechanical drafting.

That mani does look like sex, I'd bang it.

Just for shits I designed an inlet location similar to the inlet on the MZR-R... No wonder they put it there... The flow is so even its insane! has this dual vortex going on in the plenum during the simulation.
I don't care if it adds a couple extra bends, I'm going that route!
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...404/assem1.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...404/assem2.jpg

that's good shit right there...

Mmmmm... Flow
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap1-2.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap2-1.jpg

I'm gonna go reward myself with some banana bread :)

Try mzr-r location with a smaller diffuser angle.

looking really good though

Nice job dude. This thing looks awsome. You got some skills being able to make something like that.

just get a few prototypes made. don't let PG's people do it, their welding and skills blow.

uhm ... wow... what would that flow translate to in cfm numbers?

wow id be all about this!!!!

whenever ive seen velocity stacks inside IM's ive seen them in this style.

http://image.importtuner.com/f/93249...ity_stacks.jpg

not to say yours arent right but have u tried this? im talking about the lip of the stack and the difference where yours are rounded

That looks amazing!

this looks fucking crazy bad-ass! nice renderings

noted and thanks!

Thanks!... we'll see how my skills with carbon fiber are...lol

I have a professional welder here in Edmonton that is a good firend of mine. His welds are perfect. I can get it welded for free but if I produce them, he will charge.

The only way to tell actual CFM is a protoytpe on a flow bench. This simulation just pressurizes the inlet. I doesn't account other variables and an actual engine connected to the manifold. But it give a good idea.

That being said this test was done at 30PSI in the manifold. you can see the restriction in colour change as the velocity of the air goes up.

THanks! I have not tried that design, but now I have something to do today!

Thanks!

Thanks! hopefully soon it will be more than just a rendering.

The second one you put up was what I was talking about

That looks great..

Woot for being in Canada too ... no BS shipping over the border to me when it's done and ready!

Thanks for the suggestion. The flow greatly improved.

Thanks!

Holy balls man this thing looks great. I REALLY like that mzr-r design, I suggested it nearly a year ago when I wanted to run a L/W top mount IC so I could have a straight shot right out of the IC to the TB. I would have only needed to flip it upside down.

I liked the original raised velocity stack design, instead of the flush inlet design.

I did some research on velocity stacks and came up with these: http://www.velocity-of-sound.com/.me...s/vs36-110.jpg

They are made by www.velocity-of-sound.com They feature a tapered pipe that might promote better airflow.

No BS conversions as well!

I tried an earlier design similar to those but the flow wasn't as smooth. I'll play around some more and see what I can come up with.
The current velocity stacks as tapered, I just hadn't posted a side view.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...od404/side.jpg

The top of the velocity stack starts out round and is lofted to the profile of the flange. If it was round all the way it wouldn't be a smooth transition into the flange/head.

Have you changed the plenum volume at all?

Yes I have been playing around with it.

I thought ide also throw this out there, we have 8 ports not 4 and unfortunately you cant really connect them without major major reworking of the head.

I intend to blend the ports in the head. Although for thoes not wanting to go that far I'm going to rework the flange to divide the runners.

EDIT: The way I see it, if your going this far, chances are your going to get some port work done. Blending the runners isn't much more.

I agree. If you are going this far then you have the ambition and the money to go this far. Then again the secondary injection system that is being created right now may not work with this, or at least the PTP system. Either way I think it is an awsome render and should definately be prototyped.

I looked more into this velocity stack (VS) issue and this is what I have found so far.

VS's are used on N/A motors in order to produce more torque. VS's essentially do the same thing on a turbo motor untill boost kicks in. This is when the air flow dynamics change. The engine is no longer sucking the air in, its more being forced in by the turbo (Duh).

In an N/A application the air speeds up as it travels down the VS due to vacuum. The point where it speeds up is the taper to the VS. Any obstructions (minor) pre VS don't have much effect.


In a turbo application we are dealing with compressed air (more molecules). As the air is crammed in and small disruptions have a more profound effect on flow paths and velocity. The turbo is creating the pressure but the design of the manifold (IC, piping, TB, ect) is providing the CFM to the engine through smooth and even flow.

When I ran the simulation the VS raised up 2.250" from the bottom, them flow was really good under no pressure. Once I added 30psi of boost, a lot of interference occurred around the bottoms the the VS....

Now I lost my train of thought.... fuck.

Actually, the flange that I'm using will be interchangeable with the Vivid motorsports one. I'll just send it out sans flange and you get the Vivid one Tig'd on... PI done.

do u plan of making alot fo these or just one€?

Nice, I am liking this more and more.

I'm going to see how it pans out.
If the cost, time ect. is too much then I'll just release the drawings the the community. That way you can submit the drawings to a shop, get the parts made, and build it yourself. Kind of a DIY kit manifold.

More playing around.
So far the MZR-R design has yielded the best flow characteristics so far (Big suprise)
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap1-2.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap2-1.jpg

I have played around with the diffuser height and angle, and while I can get a more direct flow to the Velocity Stacks, the flow in the Velocity Stacks is not as nice.
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ess_snap22.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ess_snap12.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...ss_snap3-2.jpg

At this point I'm going to stick with the MZR-R design and tweek it a bit.

David










Edit: First post updated






.

Would approaching a company that already makes CF parts be easier and cheaper to mass produce theses? I would guess they could take your rendering and have it rapid prototyped and then a mold created.

Looks great, thanks for the time and effort.

Me likes! Alot!

2 weeks for this sexy piece to be made?

if u guys notice on the reg 2.3L the intake design is the same as the MZR-R. im loving this ish please get this done!!!!

Flow of a 3.2"sq port is:

441CFM @ 28"H2O
453HP @ 28"H2O
8.39FPS @ 28"H2O

1,697CFM @ 15PSI
1170HP @ 15PSI

2,147CFM @ 24PSI
1480HP @ 24PSI

2,401CFM @ 30PSI
1655HP @ 30PSI

EDIT #1 Mind you this is calculated without factoring in humidity, temp, altitude, port shape, port angle, volumetric efficiency, friction coeficient, or anything else that would restrict flow. These calculations are from a world where unicorns roam freely and all women are naked, horny, and hot.

EDIT #2 This is calculated for an ideal round port.

EDIT #3 The CFM is also calculated with the port flowing to the open atmosphere and not to a engine.

EDIT #4 The HP calculation is a generic CFM to HP equation that assumes stoich conditions and 100% efficiency.

Thanks.
I'm going to get a rapid prototype done (3D printer) and create a silicon mold from that. I'm going to pour plaster into the mold and let it dry. Extract the plaster positive and wrap in CF. Once dry, wash out the plaster.
I approached a shop here in Edmonton that does composites but they wanted a 1,000 piece commitment.. F that noise. They did say they would help with the prototype and mold though.

Good. How would you like a 3.25" MAF, TB, and BAT spacer?

That was a joke. Cobb used to say that. I'm trying my best (I'm only one man). I think I've made huge progress in the past 3 days. I'm making no dead lines, but I will keep this thread updated.

Hopefully this will fit the reg 3's as well. I can test it on my wife car.

Well shit. I'm not that far off. I got 1229.86111111111111 CFM for one runner.
Thanks man

I had to Mock up the rest of the intake in order to see the projected flow better. Thought you guys would like a sneak peak.:bukkake:

The entire ID is 3.25".

Included in the pics are:
MZR-R manifold
BAT relocation spacer
3.25" DBW Throttle body
3.25" MAF relocation
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...4/assem1-2.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...404/assem3.jpg
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...404/assem4.jpg

If you come up dry I have the perfect guy in Canada to do that for us. He just visited too and he's ready to take on some projects.

Your numbers are probably more accurate than mine, but in the real world I can assure you that both of our numbers are very very very very far off. At least we can be fairly certain that this new IM will not be a restriction for anyone and the flow loss appears to be minimal compaired to the stock one.

How are you going to shield the MAF so it lasts longer than a few K miles. (blowthrough induces MAF failure quickly)

thats not the MAF thats the MAP.

and BTW from my understanding the MAP should go AFTER the TB cause you arent measuring vacuum pre TB. just update your dwg to reflect that.

EDIT: ok maby that is the MAF im seeing sorry i misunderstood cause u diddent actually have a MAP drawn in. i wouldent do a blow through. its too hard to tune and will never run as well as pull through setup.

You can make a blow through MAF function quite well, especially since this is to be used with the Vivid system which is speed density.

Thanks Mark!
The first one I'm going to hand make myself, and then I'll base future efforts off of that. I'm pretty sure I can build a mani in 2 days including waiting for the CF to dry and TIG welding. While my buddy is welding I can be starting the next one. I'm guessing I can do 5/week with 1 mold.. more molds, more parts.

While we are talking construction, I wonder if there is any info on the net on sizing the thickness of carbon fiber for boosted intake parts. Ill take a look around and see if I see anything.

I don't see any reason why it would degrade faster. It's seeing the same amount of air in blow through as in suck mode. The only thing might be that it will need cleaning slightly more often do to possible oil coming from the turbo. We'll have to wait and see what happens to ATEBALLER's blow thru MAF.

EDIT: LOL @ the MAF being backwards in the pic.


Sorry I haven't mocked up the MAP sensor yet. The spacer is similar to the racing roots one except mine has a connection for a silicon tube (for the intake mani). It's in the pic after the TB
http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/t...404/assem5.jpg

Thanks!

Keep in mind that you don't have to use a blow through MAF to use this setup. You can keep your existing intake (SRI, Cold air ect), and IC.
What you will need is a BAT spacer and 3.25" TB. I'm going to put these in as a kit.

I'm choosing to do a blow through as I'm doing a custom intake with the Battery and ECU relocated. This should allow for some nice real estate for some big smooth tubing. I'm also using a L/A IC and a big turbo (yet to be decided). These are long term plans. First thing I'm doing is the intake manifold.

That would be awesome, Thanks! I just used 0.025" thickness as a nominal value for now. Anything thicker will not change the internal dimensions.

EDIT: LOL@ the MAF being backwards in the pic. (DOH!)

Once you physically make one, see what your time is worth. If the results are favorable, I have no problem making it worth while for you to knock a few out a week or so in your spare time.

Found a couple links with some really good home brew carbon fiber info:

http://www.rotaryeng.net/carbon-intake.txt

www.racingcomposites.net:

You have to register for the racingcomposits forum, but it really has alot of good info.

It seems that you can make this stuff to be really really thin and hold alot of boost.

also what are you gona do about the few vacuum lines we do need like brake booster and BOV/meth? is that what you were talking about with the tubing in the BAT spacer?

Thanks mang... I'll keep it in mind and let you know.

Wow thanks man. I've done a lot of fiberglass stuff so I figured it wouldn't be too different. Looks like I have some reading to do!

I have a plate drawn up that's tapped for vac sources just like this.
http://www.theoldone.com/components/...emanifold2.jpg

Meth can go in the BAT spacer behind the TB, in the post IC piping, or in each runner of the mani.

Not true at all. Take it out and clean it every few months or so and it'll be fine. I wish you would stop going into every thread that says blow-thru in it somewhere and tell everyone how bad it is when it isn't. Just saying.



Also not true. When I had the stock size housing in there it ran perfect, other than blowing the cheap couplers apart at 10psi. If anything, I'd say it ran alot better. It didn't have any choppiness or oscillation that it does in the stock airbox. Hell, when the couplers would blow off, it would still run fine, minus boost. It would get some weird cut if I tried to hammer the gas pedal, but I'd expect that without the turbo hooked up to the intake. I was deffinately able to make it home from work though on a few occations with no boost and it drove and felt fine. The only reason I took it off is cause I switch the housing with a 3" one when I got it all welded together and I have no way to tune it. I dumped money into a Tactrix cable and ECU Edit which turned out to be utter fail, so I have to hold off for now. I'm still in the process of unpacking since I moved into my house a few weeks ago, plus I'm getting married this Sunday and will be in Mexico all next week. After that, maybe I can put some much-needed attention back into my car.

Just my $0.02.

this looks pretty awesome now.

Good progress so far, very curious to see the results of this.
If you need a hand let me know.

I would cut off my own hand and lend it to you if you needed it. I really like your manifold, thanks!

this mock up looks great! would love to see a working piece. keep up the good work. way to look out for the community we need more people like you...im just to busy haha

Ditto on the help / resources ... if you need something post it up, if I can help I'm 100% in to help ... this is great work

Thanks for the info and support ATE.

Thanks man.

Will do Champ.

lol... I think that custom might have a problem with that.

Thanks.

Thanks!

Man, that is a beautiful thing! Please don't let this fall through the cracks! I'm salivating in anticipation. I hope you get this on your car soooon!

Very nice piece!

This is coming along waayy better than I imagined. I thought u were just some dude with a cool computer program. This shit looks awesome, great work!

i would have sex with that manifold...violating each and every velocity stack

Subbing here.... this looks good.

Don't come into my thread a fucking write "subing" to subscribe. That's my biggest pet peve ever! There's a subscription button at the top of the Page!.

That being said, Thanks! and stay tuned.

damn scientists...lol :P

I don't have any experience with carbon fiber other than gun barrels where the bore is a steel sleeve inside of CF. How is it with heat retention/dissipation? I'm sure that whatever it is, it's right for this application since it's used on the MZR-R. Just curious.

Alright, wheres the noob stamp :doh: I did not know that...

lol owned

beautiful work phantom, keep the work up, make this car a monster!

have you considered making the intake runners out of carbon also? the flange may have to be more complicated but you could use adhesive to attach the carbon to the flange. the manufacturablity would be harder if you included the intake runners in the carbon piece i would imagine though. perhaps your flow would be better? i would check myself but i only have access to flowworks xpress and can't specify surfaces and other variables.:( i'm assuming you use solidworks if you gave me your model i could model the part i am thinking of so you could test it. totally understand if you don't want your hard work floating around to people you don't know though. put me on the list if you need any help with anything else.
from what you have though it looks good keep it up!

Phantom's giving out free thanks for complimenting his manifold


Phantom, i just love what you've done with this manifold!

Ok, maybe I'm just out there. But what if you took some of the bulging off the sides and front of the manifold? (Do you see what I'm saying?..on the bulging away from the airflow)..none of that is really being used but is still going to be filled up with excess air. I would think if you kinda shaved off those bulges and it would be more of a direct flow. I think that would help some of your velocity through the stacks.

I dunno but here is a shitty paint drawing for what I'm talking about. If I don't know shit and that is completely wrong then just say so.. I'm just throwing this out there.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/d...anirevised.jpg

That area probably creates a vortex that smooths out the air as it enters the runners.

the point of a "plenum" is to gather air in one large area and then it gets evenly distributed into each of the runner. the velocity stacks help smooth out and speed up the air entering each runner. i wish i knew what whoosh's intake mani looked like when he was designing it.

Yup, it's not like all the valves are open at once.

It was a typical turbo log style design if I remember right.

I had I design similar to this one with CF runners. It was ditched for the exact reasons you just listed. The runners were not identical but the flow was very similar.


No I'm Not....

That was an old design when I was playing around with plenum volume and diffuser angles. The plenum is smaller now and the angle different. Reference my first thread for current pics.

Keep it there, that is where we have installed ours with the Neon SRT4 and where we have it planned with the Caliber SRT4. I would build a manifold for the Mazdaspeed, but we first need to have it become a restriction, that is going to take a secondary fuel system and way more air flow. I really like the design of your manifold, keep up the good work.

Not only that but you have to remember we are boosted, thus allowing us to fill a larger volume area with compressed air. Thus the compressed air will have to "move" to the corresponding port when it opens. Also remember that you will need to have the plenum size match that of the turbo and or motor. If it takes to long to fill the plenum (smaller turbo) then you will never reach the manifolds true potential because the motor will consume all the air that the smaller turbo can provide (PSI is not the same as CFM).

So if the manifold is to big, the stock turbo will loose HP because of it. If it is to small, the larger turbos will have sonic resonance in the manifold and cause the manifold air flow to "stall" inside the manifold.

There is an amazing amount of work that goes into making a manifold that makes power and is proven to work on both stock turbo and larger turbo applications. This is why we abandonded our manifold project with the Speed's, to many motors go boom before people can spend some serious money on making them go fast.

Speaking of sonic resonance... damn yeah I nearly forgot, phantom... you cant have a design that exceeds ~10900in/sec because that is the sound barrier.

As completely ripped off of another site:
"The Mach Index is a mathematical expression of the speed, in this case, of the inlet velocity, relative to the speed of sound. Volumetric efficiency will start to fall off sharply past six tenths the speed of sound (Mach .6) so the engine designer will not want to exceed this .6 mach value at peak rpms. In as much as the speed of sound is temperature dependent and the exhaust valve has different requirements, these calculations do not apply to the exhaust valve."

I think we might still be in the green though, we need to determine the CFM requirements of say 700 crank hp, and then run a flow model with that CFM and see what the velocity is.

EDIT: 700 crank hp is about 1050CFM on a 2.3l engine, and it is also a calculated 44psi but I have no idea how they determined that.

Thanks for the info PTP.

Thanks man.

I'm heading back to the drawing board with these new figures in mind. Last week was a write off as I was helping a friend with his business.
I should have a new model later today as its a long weekend here in Canada-land.

cant wait to see it :)

what program are you using btw?

I am guessing its solid works.

I'm using solid works 2009 Premium.
It's good all around program though it does lack in the area of complex surfaces through (think car body design). It's not impossible to do, but there are better programs out there like Pro engineering that can do it easier.

impressive work ninja

Not a problem, I would have to say if your going to build it built it around bigger turbo applications or make it so you can swap plenum size, lets say for a stock turbo to big turbo application. I really like the design, keep up the good work.

Thanks!

I've already geared it towards the big turbo crowd with the 3.25" inlet. The plenum will be interchangeable eventually but not at first. There is a ring that sandwiches the plenum between the velocity stack flange and a bolt ring on the inside. Changing it will be as easy as unbolting the ring and bolting the new plenum on.

Just to be clear, for the time being I'm just going to start with one plenum until I get some real flow numbers and fitment sorted out.

I'm going to make the first one out of fiberglass just to keep the prototyping costs down. One of my CNC machinist friends has a lot of down time at his shop right now and said that if I can get the material, he will make up the metal parts for me. Another friend offered to TIG it for free as well.

So far, for the prototype, the cost is going to be minimal which will help if I end up doing multiple revisions. At the same time I can get a good estimate on the actual cost for full production.

This sounds awesome. Let me know if you need anything man.

Will do.

UPDATE in original post.

hey as for the flow moving left. after a bend in piping you ALWAYS need and air straightener. put one just before the inlet of the mani and see what happens.

lol... That's what I said I was going to do...

If you need other software, let me know. I can get anything.