SEX!! with a Carbon fiber Intake Manifold

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by phantom3 I looked more into this velocity stack (VS) issue and this is what I have found so far. VS's are used on N/A motors in order to produce more torque. VS's essentially do the same thing on a turbo motor untill boost kicks in. This is when the air flow dynamics change. The engine is no longer sucking the air in, its more being forced in by the turbo (Duh). In an N/A application the air speeds up as it travels down the VS due to vacuum. The point where it speeds up is the taper to the VS. Any obstructions (minor) pre VS don't have much effect. In a turbo application we are dealing with compressed air (more molecules). As the air is crammed in and small disruptions have a more profound effect on flow paths and velocity. The turbo is creating the pressure but the design of the manifold (IC, piping, TB, ect) is providing the CFM to the engine through smooth and even flow. When I ran the simulation the VS raised up 2.250" from the bottom, them flow was really good under no pressure. Once I added 30psi of boost, a lot of interference occurred around the bottoms the the VS.... Now I lost my train of thought.... fuck. Actually, the flange that I'm using will be interchangeable with the Vivid motorsports one. I'll just send it out sans flange and you get the Vivid one Tig'd on... PI done.

Nice, I am liking this more and more.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by devils10 do u plan of making alot fo these or just one€?

I'm going to see how it pans out.
If the cost, time ect. is too much then I'll just release the drawings the the community. That way you can submit the drawings to a shop, get the parts made, and build it yourself. Kind of a DIY kit manifold.

More playing around.
So far the MZR-R design has yielded the best flow characteristics so far (Big suprise)



I have played around with the diffuser height and angle, and while I can get a more direct flow to the Velocity Stacks, the flow in the Velocity Stacks is not as nice.




At this point I'm going to stick with the MZR-R design and tweek it a bit.

David










Edit: First post updated






.

[QuickSpool]

Would approaching a company that already makes CF parts be easier and cheaper to mass produce theses? I would guess they could take your rendering and have it rapid prototyped and then a mold created.

Looks great, thanks for the time and effort.

[ATE BALLER]

Me likes! Alot!

[nighthawk358]

2 weeks for this sexy piece to be made?

[superskaterxes]

if u guys notice on the reg 2.3L the intake design is the same as the MZR-R. im loving this ish please get this done!!!!

[06Speed6]

Flow of a 3.2"sq port is:

441CFM @ 28"H2O
453HP @ 28"H2O
8.39FPS @ 28"H2O

1,697CFM @ 15PSI
1170HP @ 15PSI

2,147CFM @ 24PSI
1480HP @ 24PSI

2,401CFM @ 30PSI
1655HP @ 30PSI

EDIT #1 Mind you this is calculated without factoring in humidity, temp, altitude, port shape, port angle, volumetric efficiency, friction coeficient, or anything else that would restrict flow. These calculations are from a world where unicorns roam freely and all women are naked, horny, and hot.

EDIT #2 This is calculated for an ideal round port.

EDIT #3 The CFM is also calculated with the port flowing to the open atmosphere and not to a engine.

EDIT #4 The HP calculation is a generic CFM to HP equation that assumes stoich conditions and 100% efficiency.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by QuickSpool Would approaching a company that already makes CF parts be easier and cheaper to mass produce theses? I would guess they could take your rendering and have it rapid prototyped and then a mold created. Looks great, thanks for the time and effort.

Thanks.
I'm going to get a rapid prototype done (3D printer) and create a silicon mold from that. I'm going to pour plaster into the mold and let it dry. Extract the plaster positive and wrap in CF. Once dry, wash out the plaster.
I approached a shop here in Edmonton that does composites but they wanted a 1,000 piece commitment.. F that noise. They did say they would help with the prototype and mold though.

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER Me likes! Alot!

Good. How would you like a 3.25" MAF, TB, and BAT spacer?

Originally Posted by nighthawk358 2 weeks for this sexy piece to be made?

That was a joke. Cobb used to say that. I'm trying my best (I'm only one man). I think I've made huge progress in the past 3 days. I'm making no dead lines, but I will keep this thread updated.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes if u guys notice on the reg 2.3L the intake design is the same as the MZR-R. im loving this ish please get this done!!!!

Hopefully this will fit the reg 3's as well. I can test it on my wife car.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Flow of a 3.2"sq port is: 441CFM @ 28"H2O 453HP @ 28"H2O 8.39FPS @ 28"H2O 1,697CFM @ 15PSI 1170HP @ 15PSI 2,147CFM @ 24PSI 1480HP @ 24PSI 2,401CFM @ 30PSI 1655HP @ 30PSI EDIT #1 Mind you this is calculated without factoring in humidity, temp, altitude, port shape, port angle, volumetric efficiency, friction coeficient, or anything else that would restrict flow. These calculations are from a world where unicorns roam freely and all women are naked, horny, and hot. EDIT #2 This is calculated for an ideal round port. EDIT #3 The CFM is also calculated with the port flowing to the open atmosphere and not to a engine. EDIT #4 The HP calculation is a generic CFM to HP equation that assumes stoich conditions and 100% efficiency.

Well shit. I'm not that far off. I got 1229.86111111111111 CFM for one runner.
Thanks man

I had to Mock up the rest of the intake in order to see the projected flow better. Thought you guys would like a sneak peak.

The entire ID is 3.25".

Included in the pics are:
MZR-R manifold
BAT relocation spacer
3.25" DBW Throttle body
3.25" MAF relocation

[MarkyMark]

If you come up dry I have the perfect guy in Canada to do that for us. He just visited too and he's ready to take on some projects.

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by phantom3 Well shit. I'm not that far off. I got 1229.86111111111111 CFM for one runner. Thanks man

Your numbers are probably more accurate than mine, but in the real world I can assure you that both of our numbers are very very very very far off. At least we can be fairly certain that this new IM will not be a restriction for anyone and the flow loss appears to be minimal compaired to the stock one.

[wassup61]

How are you going to shield the MAF so it lasts longer than a few K miles. (blowthrough induces MAF failure quickly)

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by wassup61 How are you going to shield the MAF so it lasts longer than a few K miles. (blowthrough induces MAF failure quickly)

thats not the MAF thats the MAP.

and BTW from my understanding the MAP should go AFTER the TB cause you arent measuring vacuum pre TB. just update your dwg to reflect that.

EDIT: ok maby that is the MAF im seeing sorry i misunderstood cause u diddent actually have a MAP drawn in. i wouldent do a blow through. its too hard to tune and will never run as well as pull through setup.

[06Speed6]

You can make a blow through MAF function quite well, especially since this is to be used with the Vivid system which is speed density.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark If you come up dry I have the perfect guy in Canada to do that for us. He just visited too and he's ready to take on some projects.

Thanks Mark!
The first one I'm going to hand make myself, and then I'll base future efforts off of that. I'm pretty sure I can build a mani in 2 days including waiting for the CF to dry and TIG welding. While my buddy is welding I can be starting the next one. I'm guessing I can do 5/week with 1 mold.. more molds, more parts.

[06Speed6]

While we are talking construction, I wonder if there is any info on the net on sizing the thickness of carbon fiber for boosted intake parts. Ill take a look around and see if I see anything.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Your numbers are probably more accurate than mine, but in the real world I can assure you that both of our numbers are very very very very far off. At least we can be fairly certain that this new IM will not be a restriction for anyone and the flow loss appears to be minimal compaired to the stock one.

Originally Posted by wassup61 How are you going to shield the MAF so it lasts longer than a few K miles. (blowthrough induces MAF failure quickly)

I don't see any reason why it would degrade faster. It's seeing the same amount of air in blow through as in suck mode. The only thing might be that it will need cleaning slightly more often do to possible oil coming from the turbo. We'll have to wait and see what happens to ATEBALLER's blow thru MAF.

EDIT: LOL @ the MAF being backwards in the pic.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes thats not the MAF thats the MAP. and BTW from my understanding the MAP should go AFTER the TB cause you arent measuring vacuum pre TB. just update your dwg to reflect that. EDIT: ok maby that is the MAF im seeing sorry i misunderstood cause u diddent actually have a MAP drawn in. i wouldent do a blow through. its too hard to tune and will never run as well as pull through setup.

Sorry I haven't mocked up the MAP sensor yet. The spacer is similar to the racing roots one except mine has a connection for a silicon tube (for the intake mani). It's in the pic after the TB

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 You can make a blow through MAF function quite well, especially since this is to be used with the Vivid system which is speed density.

Thanks!

Keep in mind that you don't have to use a blow through MAF to use this setup. You can keep your existing intake (SRI, Cold air ect), and IC.
What you will need is a BAT spacer and 3.25" TB. I'm going to put these in as a kit.

I'm choosing to do a blow through as I'm doing a custom intake with the Battery and ECU relocated. This should allow for some nice real estate for some big smooth tubing. I'm also using a L/A IC and a big turbo (yet to be decided). These are long term plans. First thing I'm doing is the intake manifold.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 While we are talking construction, I wonder if there is any info on the net on sizing the thickness of carbon fiber for boosted intake parts. Ill take a look around and see if I see anything.

That would be awesome, Thanks! I just used 0.025" thickness as a nominal value for now. Anything thicker will not change the internal dimensions.

EDIT: LOL@ the MAF being backwards in the pic. (DOH!)

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by phantom3 Thanks Mark! The first one I'm going to hand make myself, and then I'll base future efforts off of that. I'm pretty sure I can build a mani in 2 days including waiting for the CF to dry and TIG welding. While my buddy is welding I can be starting the next one. I'm guessing I can do 5/week with 1 mold.. more molds, more parts.

Once you physically make one, see what your time is worth. If the results are favorable, I have no problem making it worth while for you to knock a few out a week or so in your spare time.

[06Speed6]

Found a couple links with some really good home brew carbon fiber info:

http://www.rotaryeng.net/carbon-intake.txt

www.racingcomposites.net:

You have to register for the racingcomposits forum, but it really has alot of good info.

It seems that you can make this stuff to be really really thin and hold alot of boost.

[superskaterxes]

also what are you gona do about the few vacuum lines we do need like brake booster and BOV/meth? is that what you were talking about with the tubing in the BAT spacer?

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark Once you physically make one, see what your time is worth. If the results are favorable, I have no problem making it worth while for you to knock a few out a week or so in your spare time.

Thanks mang... I'll keep it in mind and let you know.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Found a couple links with some really good home brew carbon fiber info: http://www.rotaryeng.net/carbon-intake.txt www.racingcomposites.net: You have to register for the racingcomposits forum, but it really has alot of good info. It seems that you can make this stuff to be really really thin and hold alot of boost.

Wow thanks man. I've done a lot of fiberglass stuff so I figured it wouldn't be too different. Looks like I have some reading to do!

Originally Posted by superskaterxes also what are you gona do about the few vacuum lines we do need like brake booster and BOV/meth? is that what you were talking about with the tubing in the BAT spacer?

I have a plate drawn up that's tapped for vac sources just like this.


Meth can go in the BAT spacer behind the TB, in the post IC piping, or in each runner of the mani.

[ATE BALLER]

Originally Posted by wassup61 How are you going to shield the MAF so it lasts longer than a few K miles. (blowthrough induces MAF failure quickly)

Not true at all. Take it out and clean it every few months or so and it'll be fine. I wish you would stop going into every thread that says blow-thru in it somewhere and tell everyone how bad it is when it isn't. Just saying.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes thats not the MAF thats the MAP. and BTW from my understanding the MAP should go AFTER the TB cause you arent measuring vacuum pre TB. just update your dwg to reflect that. EDIT: ok maby that is the MAF im seeing sorry i misunderstood cause u diddent actually have a MAP drawn in. i wouldent do a blow through. its too hard to tune and will never run as well as pull through setup.

Also not true. When I had the stock size housing in there it ran perfect, other than blowing the cheap couplers apart at 10psi. If anything, I'd say it ran alot better. It didn't have any choppiness or oscillation that it does in the stock airbox. Hell, when the couplers would blow off, it would still run fine, minus boost. It would get some weird cut if I tried to hammer the gas pedal, but I'd expect that without the turbo hooked up to the intake. I was deffinately able to make it home from work though on a few occations with no boost and it drove and felt fine. The only reason I took it off is cause I switch the housing with a 3" one when I got it all welded together and I have no way to tune it. I dumped money into a Tactrix cable and ECU Edit which turned out to be utter fail, so I have to hold off for now. I'm still in the process of unpacking since I moved into my house a few weeks ago, plus I'm getting married this Sunday and will be in Mexico all next week. After that, maybe I can put some much-needed attention back into my car.

Just my $0.02.

[stealthspeed6]

this looks pretty awesome now.

[AndyMS3]

Good progress so far, very curious to see the results of this.
If you need a hand let me know.

[djuosnteisn]

I would cut off my own hand and lend it to you if you needed it. I really like your manifold, thanks!

[sleeperstang1994]

this mock up looks great! would love to see a working piece. keep up the good work. way to look out for the community we need more people like you...im just to busy haha

[GQ_WhiteMS3]

Ditto on the help / resources ... if you need something post it up, if I can help I'm 100% in to help ... this is great work

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER Not true at all. Take it out and clean it every few months or so and it'll be fine. I wish you would stop going into every thread that says blow-thru in it somewhere and tell everyone how bad it is when it isn't. Just saying. [/B] Also not true. When I had the stock size housing in there it ran perfect, other than blowing the cheap couplers apart at 10psi. If anything, I'd say it ran alot better. It didn't have any choppiness or oscillation that it does in the stock airbox. Hell, when the couplers would blow off, it would still run fine, minus boost. It would get some weird cut if I tried to hammer the gas pedal, but I'd expect that without the turbo hooked up to the intake. I was deffinately able to make it home from work though on a few occations with no boost and it drove and felt fine. The only reason I took it off is cause I switch the housing with a 3" one when I got it all welded together and I have no way to tune it. I dumped money into a Tactrix cable and ECU Edit which turned out to be utter fail, so I have to hold off for now. I'm still in the process of unpacking since I moved into my house a few weeks ago, plus I'm getting married this Sunday and will be in Mexico all next week. After that, maybe I can put some much-needed attention back into my car. Just my $0.02.

Thanks for the info and support ATE.

Originally Posted by stealthspeed6 this looks pretty awesome now.

Thanks man.

Originally Posted by AndyMS3 Good progress so far, very curious to see the results of this. If you need a hand let me know.

Will do Champ.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I would cut off my own hand and lend it to you if you needed it. I really like your manifold, thanks!

lol... I think that custom might have a problem with that.

Originally Posted by sleeperstang1994 this mock up looks great! would love to see a working piece. keep up the good work. way to look out for the community we need more people like you...im just to busy haha

Thanks.

Originally Posted by GQ_WhiteMS3 Ditto on the help / resources ... if you need something post it up, if I can help I'm 100% in to help ... this is great work

Thanks!

[Arrowpoint]

Man, that is a beautiful thing! Please don't let this fall through the cracks! I'm salivating in anticipation. I hope you get this on your car soooon!

[Phantom]

Very nice piece!

[spiker98]

This is coming along waayy better than I imagined. I thought u were just some dude with a cool computer program. This shit looks awesome, great work!

[Blackspeed]

i would have sex with that manifold...violating each and every velocity stack

[7mileshome]

Subbing here.... this looks good.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by 7mileshome Subbing here.... this looks good.

Don't come into my thread a fucking write "subing" to subscribe. That's my biggest pet peve ever! There's a subscription button at the top of the Page!.

That being said, Thanks! and stay tuned.

[miguelbates]

damn scientists...lol

[Arrowpoint]

I don't have any experience with carbon fiber other than gun barrels where the bore is a steel sleeve inside of CF. How is it with heat retention/dissipation? I'm sure that whatever it is, it's right for this application since it's used on the MZR-R. Just curious.

[7mileshome]

Originally Posted by phantom3 Don't come into my thread a fucking write "subing" to subscribe. That's my biggest pet peve ever! There's a subscription button at the top of the Page!. That being said, Thanks! and stay tuned.

Alright, wheres the noob stamp I did not know that...

[Buildabong]

lol owned

beautiful work phantom, keep the work up, make this car a monster!

[labikesrcool]

have you considered making the intake runners out of carbon also? the flange may have to be more complicated but you could use adhesive to attach the carbon to the flange. the manufacturablity would be harder if you included the intake runners in the carbon piece i would imagine though. perhaps your flow would be better? i would check myself but i only have access to flowworks xpress and can't specify surfaces and other variables. i'm assuming you use solidworks if you gave me your model i could model the part i am thinking of so you could test it. totally understand if you don't want your hard work floating around to people you don't know though. put me on the list if you need any help with anything else.
from what you have though it looks good keep it up!

[djuosnteisn]

Phantom's giving out free thanks for complimenting his manifold


Phantom, i just love what you've done with this manifold!

[spiker98]

Ok, maybe I'm just out there. But what if you took some of the bulging off the sides and front of the manifold? (Do you see what I'm saying?..on the bulging away from the airflow)..none of that is really being used but is still going to be filled up with excess air. I would think if you kinda shaved off those bulges and it would be more of a direct flow. I think that would help some of your velocity through the stacks.

I dunno but here is a shitty paint drawing for what I'm talking about. If I don't know shit and that is completely wrong then just say so.. I'm just throwing this out there.