SEX!! with a Carbon fiber Intake Manifold

[SPD6Tuner]

Originally Posted by spiker98 Ok, maybe I'm just out there. But what if you took some of the bulging off the sides and front of the manifold? (Do you see what I'm saying?..on the bulging away from the airflow)..none of that is really being used but is still going to be filled up with excess air. I would think if you kinda shaved off those bulges and it would be more of a direct flow. I think that would help some of your velocity through the stacks. I dunno but here is a shitty paint drawing for what I'm talking about. If I don't know shit and that is completely wrong then just say so.. I'm just throwing this out there.

That area probably creates a vortex that smooths out the air as it enters the runners.

[superskaterxes]

the point of a "plenum" is to gather air in one large area and then it gets evenly distributed into each of the runner. the velocity stacks help smooth out and speed up the air entering each runner. i wish i knew what whoosh's intake mani looked like when he was designing it.

[djuosnteisn]

Yup, it's not like all the valves are open at once.

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes the point of a "plenum" is to gather air in one large area and then it gets evenly distributed into each of the runner. the velocity stacks help smooth out and speed up the air entering each runner. i wish i knew what whoosh's intake mani looked like when he was designing it.

It was a typical turbo log style design if I remember right.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by labikesrcool have you considered making the intake runners out of carbon also? the flange may have to be more complicated but you could use adhesive to attach the carbon to the flange. the manufacturablity would be harder if you included the intake runners in the carbon piece i would imagine though. perhaps your flow would be better? i would check myself but i only have access to flowworks xpress and can't specify surfaces and other variables. i'm assuming you use solidworks if you gave me your model i could model the part i am thinking of so you could test it. totally understand if you don't want your hard work floating around to people you don't know though. put me on the list if you need any help with anything else. from what you have though it looks good keep it up!

I had I design similar to this one with CF runners. It was ditched for the exact reasons you just listed. The runners were not identical but the flow was very similar.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Phantom's giving out free thanks for complimenting his manifold Phantom, i just love what you've done with this manifold!

No I'm Not....

Originally Posted by spiker98 Ok, maybe I'm just out there. But what if you took some of the bulging off the sides and front of the manifold? (Do you see what I'm saying?..on the bulging away from the airflow)..none of that is really being used but is still going to be filled up with excess air. I would think if you kinda shaved off those bulges and it would be more of a direct flow. I think that would help some of your velocity through the stacks. I dunno but here is a shitty paint drawing for what I'm talking about. If I don't know shit and that is completely wrong then just say so.. I'm just throwing this out there.

That was an old design when I was playing around with plenum volume and diffuser angles. The plenum is smaller now and the angle different. Reference my first thread for current pics.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by phantom3 The simulation is just a projected path simulation, So I won't know more until I get a working prototype. However, this is the 7th position that I have put it inlet at and this one give the best projected flow between the runners. EDIT: I guess I could put it in the same position as the MZR-R intake.. but it didn't make sense to put unneeded bends in the piping.

Keep it there, that is where we have installed ours with the Neon SRT4 and where we have it planned with the Caliber SRT4. I would build a manifold for the Mazdaspeed, but we first need to have it become a restriction, that is going to take a secondary fuel system and way more air flow. I really like the design of your manifold, keep up the good work.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes the point of a "plenum" is to gather air in one large area and then it gets evenly distributed into each of the runner. the velocity stacks help smooth out and speed up the air entering each runner. i wish i knew what whoosh's intake mani looked like when he was designing it.

Not only that but you have to remember we are boosted, thus allowing us to fill a larger volume area with compressed air. Thus the compressed air will have to "move" to the corresponding port when it opens. Also remember that you will need to have the plenum size match that of the turbo and or motor. If it takes to long to fill the plenum (smaller turbo) then you will never reach the manifolds true potential because the motor will consume all the air that the smaller turbo can provide (PSI is not the same as CFM).

So if the manifold is to big, the stock turbo will loose HP because of it. If it is to small, the larger turbos will have sonic resonance in the manifold and cause the manifold air flow to "stall" inside the manifold.

There is an amazing amount of work that goes into making a manifold that makes power and is proven to work on both stock turbo and larger turbo applications. This is why we abandonded our manifold project with the Speed's, to many motors go boom before people can spend some serious money on making them go fast.

[06Speed6]

Speaking of sonic resonance... damn yeah I nearly forgot, phantom... you cant have a design that exceeds ~10900in/sec because that is the sound barrier.

As completely ripped off of another site:
"The Mach Index is a mathematical expression of the speed, in this case, of the inlet velocity, relative to the speed of sound. Volumetric efficiency will start to fall off sharply past six tenths the speed of sound (Mach .6) so the engine designer will not want to exceed this .6 mach value at peak rpms. In as much as the speed of sound is temperature dependent and the exhaust valve has different requirements, these calculations do not apply to the exhaust valve."

I think we might still be in the green though, we need to determine the CFM requirements of say 700 crank hp, and then run a flow model with that CFM and see what the velocity is.

EDIT: 700 crank hp is about 1050CFM on a 2.3l engine, and it is also a calculated 44psi but I have no idea how they determined that.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Keep it there, that is where we have installed ours with the Neon SRT4 and where we have it planned with the Caliber SRT4. I would build a manifold for the Mazdaspeed, but we first need to have it become a restriction, that is going to take a secondary fuel system and way more air flow. I really like the design of your manifold, keep up the good work. So if the manifold is to big, the stock turbo will loose HP because of it. If it is to small, the larger turbos will have sonic resonance in the manifold and cause the manifold air flow to "stall" inside the manifold.

Thanks for the info PTP.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Speaking of sonic resonance... damn yeah I nearly forgot, phantom... you cant have a design that exceeds ~10900in/sec because that is the sound barrier. As completely ripped off of another site: "The Mach Index is a mathematical expression of the speed, in this case, of the inlet velocity, relative to the speed of sound. Volumetric efficiency will start to fall off sharply past six tenths the speed of sound (Mach .6) so the engine designer will not want to exceed this .6 mach value at peak rpms. In as much as the speed of sound is temperature dependent and the exhaust valve has different requirements, these calculations do not apply to the exhaust valve." I think we might still be in the green though, we need to determine the CFM requirements of say 700 crank hp, and then run a flow model with that CFM and see what the velocity is. EDIT: 700 crank hp is about 1050CFM on a 2.3l engine, and it is also a calculated 44psi but I have no idea how they determined that.

Thanks man.

I'm heading back to the drawing board with these new figures in mind. Last week was a write off as I was helping a friend with his business.
I should have a new model later today as its a long weekend here in Canada-land.

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by phantom3 Thanks for the info PTP. Thanks man. I'm heading back to the drawing board with these new figures in mind. Last week was a write off as I was helping a friend with his business. I should have a new model later today as its a long weekend here in Canada-land.

cant wait to see it

what program are you using btw?

[jhershorin]

I am guessing its solid works.

[phantom3]

I'm using solid works 2009 Premium.
It's good all around program though it does lack in the area of complex surfaces through (think car body design). It's not impossible to do, but there are better programs out there like Pro engineering that can do it easier.

[rodrigo]

impressive work ninja

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by phantom3 Thanks for the info PTP. Thanks man. I'm heading back to the drawing board with these new figures in mind. Last week was a write off as I was helping a friend with his business. I should have a new model later today as its a long weekend here in Canada-land.

Not a problem, I would have to say if your going to build it built it around bigger turbo applications or make it so you can swap plenum size, lets say for a stock turbo to big turbo application. I really like the design, keep up the good work.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Not a problem, I would have to say if your going to build it built it around bigger turbo applications or make it so you can swap plenum size, lets say for a stock turbo to big turbo application. I really like the design, keep up the good work.

Thanks!

I've already geared it towards the big turbo crowd with the 3.25" inlet. The plenum will be interchangeable eventually but not at first. There is a ring that sandwiches the plenum between the velocity stack flange and a bolt ring on the inside. Changing it will be as easy as unbolting the ring and bolting the new plenum on.

Just to be clear, for the time being I'm just going to start with one plenum until I get some real flow numbers and fitment sorted out.

I'm going to make the first one out of fiberglass just to keep the prototyping costs down. One of my CNC machinist friends has a lot of down time at his shop right now and said that if I can get the material, he will make up the metal parts for me. Another friend offered to TIG it for free as well.

So far, for the prototype, the cost is going to be minimal which will help if I end up doing multiple revisions. At the same time I can get a good estimate on the actual cost for full production.

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by phantom3 Thanks! I've already geared it towards the big turbo crowd with the 3.25" inlet. The plenum will be interchangeable eventually but not at first. There is a ring that sandwiches the plenum between the velocity stack flange and a bolt ring on the inside. Changing it will be as easy as unbolting the ring and bolting the new plenum on. Just to be clear, for the time being I'm just going to start with one plenum until I get some real flow numbers and fitment sorted out. I'm going to make the first one out of fiberglass just to keep the prototyping costs down. One of my CNC machinist friends has a lot of down time at his shop right now and said that if I can get the material, he will make up the metal parts for me. Another friend offered to TIG it for free as well. So far, for the prototype, the cost is going to be minimal which will help if I end up doing multiple revisions. At the same time I can get a good estimate on the actual cost for full production.

This sounds awesome. Let me know if you need anything man.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark This sounds awesome. Let me know if you need anything man.

Will do.

[phantom3]

UPDATE in original post.

[superskaterxes]

hey as for the flow moving left. after a bend in piping you ALWAYS need and air straightener. put one just before the inlet of the mani and see what happens.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes hey as for the flow moving left. after a bend in piping you ALWAYS need and air straightener. put one just before the inlet of the mani and see what happens.

lol... That's what I said I was going to do...

[Haltech]

If you need other software, let me know. I can get anything.

[labikesrcool]

update looks good. although i don't see provisions for this. 3" TORNADO INTAKE TURBONATOR SINGLE FAN GAS/FUEL SAVER:eBay Motors (item 370248709511 end time Sep-20-09 1715 PDT) it's JDM!
i am kidding.

i was thinking that it may be more real world if you ran two separate study's one with the two inside runners plugged at the outlet and another study with the two outside runners plugged at the outlet. this may simulate the real running engine better. please keep in mind i may be totally off base though.

[JMEngineer]

Originally Posted by Haltech If you need other software, let me know. I can get anything.

My SolidWorks license expires in about 2 months




I'm looking forward to seeing some prototype numbers on this.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer My SolidWorks license expires in about 2 months I'm looking forward to seeing some prototype numbers on this.

use a keygen and a crack... that's what I did.

[JMEngineer]

Originally Posted by phantom3 use a keygen and a crack... that's what I did.

More info please - I haven't done anything like that in years since I've had free access to just about everything up until last Friday.

Are there any possible issues with information hidden in part files that get sent to a client?

[MATT DAMOND]

Originally Posted by phantom3 use a keygen and a crack... that's what I did.

I'm gonna give that a try. As of right now I just have SolidWorks Student Edition 09, which feels like SW 08.

I actually just started my SW 09 training today, so I'm just starting up and making simple models.

Nothing like this yet:

YouTube - Solidworks Car Tutorial : How To Model a Car

YouTube - Solidworks Car Tutorial : How To Model a Car

[JMEngineer]

Originally Posted by MATT DAMOND I'm gonna give that a try. As of right now I just have SolidWorks Student Edition 09, which feels like SW 08. I actually just started my SW 09 training today, so I'm just starting up and making simple models. Nothing like this yet: YouTube - Solidworks Car Tutorial : How To Model a Car

Shit... I didn't know they recorded me doing that

[MATT DAMOND]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer Shit... I didn't know they recorded me doing that

LOL The guy who made that, is actually making the R8 build into a tutorial. SolidWorks Car Tutorial: Master SolidWorks Surfacing and Complex Shape Modeling with this Step-by-Step Video Tutorial.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by MATT DAMOND I'm gonna give that a try. As of right now I just have SolidWorks Student Edition 09, which feels like SW 08. I actually just started my SW 09 training today, so I'm just starting up and making simple models. Nothing like this yet: YouTube - Solidworks Car Tutorial : How To Model a Car

What? no interior or working engine?... weak

[JMEngineer]

^^ I actually did have a job offer to do that stuff for Honda interiors in Marysville, Ohio but I had already accepted another position... Search 40.305209,-83.545547 in google maps and check out the test tracks they have. You have to zoom out a few times to see the whole 7 mile oval.

[phantom3]

UPDATE:

I'm broke.. lol. what else is new? I'm currently looking for a second job, but the repo man commeth and taketh away... my wife's car that is (2004 mazda 3 sedan, orange).

Needless to say the manifold has been put on the back burner.
I've finalized the design and I'm very happy with it.

I have a shop in town that is going to print the plenum in 3D for me so I can make a mold to wrap the CF around.
I've also scored some machine time at a friends shop. So once we get back on our feet and have some disposable income I can get this thing done.
I'm going to machine a mandrel up to press the runners on. The pipe will be heated up and pressed onto the mandrel shaping it perfectly to the port.
Once the runners are welded to the flanges the rest just bolts together. I should be able to make different runner lengths quite easily.

So that's where I'm at. It will get done, just not before Christmas.

David

[miguelbates]

wow bro srry to hear about the repo :\ good luck with second job

[SSinstaller]

Shit, that sucks dude. Hope you get back on your feet soon.

It's just a car, the manifold can wait...

[spiker98]

Damn dude. Understand completely on the lack of funds situation..

[djuosnteisn]

at least they took the right car.

GL on getting everything squared away.

[reddeerspeed3]

sorry to hear that dude. when all else fails, join the oilfeild. its looking to be a busy winter for the right service lines.

[superskaterxes]

so uhhhhh just how much money are we talking here to get this done? is this something we could start a donation for?

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by miguelbates wow bro srry to hear about the repo :\ good luck with second job

I hope I can find one soon... else the speed is next.

Originally Posted by SSinstaller Shit, that sucks dude. Hope you get back on your feet soon. It's just a car, the manifold can wait...

I know, But I'm the kind of guy that always likes to be busy with little projects.

Originally Posted by spiker98 Damn dude. Understand completely on the lack of funds situation..

Thanks man.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn at least they took the right car. GL on getting everything squared away.

Originally Posted by reddeerspeed3 sorry to hear that dude. when all else fails, join the oilfeild. its looking to be a busy winter for the right service lines.

How do I join said oilfield?

Originally Posted by superskaterxes so uhhhhh just how much money are we talking here to get this done? is this something we could start a donation for?

I'd say less than $600, but I do not want to take donations. Reason being, if something goes wrong, I don't want to be accused of taking money and running. Any cost I incur making this thing can be recouped in sales... That and I hate being a charity case... I won't even let my friends buy me a coffee.

[papajohn026]

oh how i love sw

[reddeerspeed3]

Originally Posted by phantom3 How do I join said oilfield?

*puts on salesman voice*
if you can handle +12hr days, being gone for weeks on end, endless repetitive physical labor (ie. swing 8lb sledgehammer more times than you can count), all while some asshole supervisor screams at you to do it faster, then the patch is the right place for you.

thats a worst case scenario. i work 15 days on, 6 off, 80-100hrs a week, and make roughly $75k/year as a senior equipment operator. i'm not sure what companies operate out of nisku, or if your willing to drive to red deer a lot, but you want to apply to a well servicing company. stay away from drilling/service rigs and well testing. just drop off lots of resumes with companies like BJ, Trican, Calfrac, Sanjel, Weatherford, Slumberger or Halliburton for their wireline, coil tubing, or pumping services divisions. PM me if you want more info

[lvmazdaspeed3]

Originally Posted by reddeerspeed3 *puts on salesman voice* if you can handle +12hr days, being gone for weeks on end, endless repetitive physical labor (ie. swing 8lb sledgehammer more times than you can count), all while some asshole supervisor screams at you to do it faster, then the patch is the right place for you. thats a worst case scenario. i work 15 days on, 6 off, 80-100hrs a week, and make roughly $75k/year as a senior equipment operator. i'm not sure what companies operate out of nisku, or if your willing to drive to red deer a lot, but you want to apply to a well servicing company. stay away from drilling/service rigs and well testing. just drop off lots of resumes with companies like BJ, Trican, Calfrac, Sanjel, Weatherford, Slumberger or Halliburton for their wireline, coil tubing, or pumping services divisions. PM me if you want more info

damn 80-100 hrs a week! thats wow... but 75k a year does seem to make it worth it.
as for the mani...what type of school is required for this type of thing... like designing cars, car parts and such... Drafting? or is it something else.