Stock rods needed for testing

[nyghtryder]

Originally Posted by Lex More food for thought: From SAE international: It was found that methanol fuel is more susceptible to pre-ignition compared to gasoline fuel ... Platinum tipped spark plugs were found to be highly susceptible to pre-ignition with methanol fuel. Pre-ignition and detonation tendency increase with the increase of engine load, compression ratio, inlet air temperature, advancing the ignition timing and lowering the engine speed

So would a different type of plug help. ie copper? Sounds like similar problems that nitrous causes. Im new to the whole meth thing so take this with a handfull of salt.

[MPSdriver]

@lex
Could you post the graph itself iso a printscreen, its hard to read. AFR's look pretty high for a WOT run imo?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by MPSdriver @lex Could you post the graph itself iso a printscreen, its hard to read. AFR's look pretty high for a WOT run imo?

That's all I have - it's posted on this forum from a member speed_3.

[aaronc7]

i was under the impression that platinum plugs were a no-no in boosted applications.... copper or iridium. and no one makes copper plugs that works for us (that i know of), so that kinda narrows it down..

i did run plat plugs for a short while while waiting to get some new step colder ones..worked fine for a few days

[darth vader]

I have built up a few engines in 25+ years of doing this hobby both import and domestic.

I agree that a huge difference between the two rods of supposedly the same spec. This looks far beyond manufacturing tolerances and more like a redesign or different vendor suppying the rods and getting the spec wrong or altering it for other reasons. However, I'll repeat, a heavier rod, especially in a high rpm app, needs to be stronger to withstand the forces it's greater mass imposes. Something is up, here.

Now, no rod is going to take for long the carnage I'm seeing evidence of here, we have shattered crown edges near the ring lands, signs of possible hydrolock, etc. I can't tell too much with this shitty comp but, these are showing signs of serious abuse and suggest that the recip assembly is being stressed light-years beyond design.

There's an engineering safety margin built into all engine parts and cost has forced engineers to whittle away at that margin. So, cars with engines like my 5.0, which could easily take 50% more power than stock without breaking anything are gonzo like the dodo these days.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by darth vader I have built up a few engines in 25+ years of doing this hobby both import and domestic. I agree that a huge difference between the two rods of supposedly the same spec. This looks far beyond manufacturing tolerances and more like a redesign or different vendor suppying the rods and getting the spec wrong or altering it for other reasons. However, I'll repeat, a heavier rod, especially in a high rpm app, needs to be stronger to withstand the forces it's greater mass imposes. Something is up, here. Now, no rod is going to take for long the carnage I'm seeing evidence of here, we have shattered crown edges near the ring lands, signs of possible hydrolock, etc. I can't tell too much with this shitty comp but, these are showing signs of serious abuse and suggest that the recip assembly is being stressed light-years beyond design. There's an engineering safety margin built into all engine parts and cost has forced engineers to whittle away at that margin. So, cars with engines like my 5.0, which could easily take 50% more power than stock without breaking anything are gonzo like the dodo these days.

Just to clarify, the crown is smashed up like that because once the rod let go, the piston was driven into the head. The markings are essentially an imprint of the head on the piston crown.

I will get more pics up - but the bottom of the piston is scraped up by contact with the crank while it was still attached to the bent rod. Essentially, something bent the rod first and rod broke afterwards.

There is another rod (#4) that is also bent in this motor and was running like this for a while as well.

So the question remains - what is causing the rod to bent in the first place.

IMO the biggest cause is detonation or pre-ignition and excessive load at low engine speeds. Essentially excessive, uncontrolled cylinder pressure.

I know oil hydrolock has been discussed but I find that hard to believe. Based on how easily the motor knocks stock and when hot (for example), I am not surprised it is so sensitive to knock when the boost is turned up.

Remember that fuel starts to be injected and mix with air only after the intake valves have opened. There is no premixing that happens behind the intake valves in a port injected engine.

[djuosnteisn]

I'm still unsure if fuel which is not properly mixed and combusted, can pull heat out of the cylinder.

Also, excessive, uncontrolled cylinder pressure would greatly increase temps. If the volume isn't increasing (slow rpm), but the pressure is (combustion), the temp must also.

Or in an even worse scenario, volume is decreasing (with either detonation or spark advance of >50), with pressure increasing.

I know light load KR isn't something to necessarily worry about, but it may be a valid indication of how high the temps may be getting. My stock timing maps were above 60 at it's lightest loads (idle) between like 1500-3500rpm (i'll have to verify by looking at a map, bu you get the idea). No wonder i see knock after sitting at a light for a couple minutes, then get on the gas and start to load the engine. Same probably goes for highway cruising.

I also wanted to ask if anyone knew the rod length to stroke ratio for our motor.

From what i've read, it gives a good indication of the likelihood of seized pistons with variations in crank alignment and probably bent rods.

[Lex]

To tell you the truth, I don't see the classical scuffing associated with seized pistons due to piston expansion. They all seem to seize because they are crooked in the bore.

To throw fuel on the fire - here's more about alcohol tendency for pre-ignition:

Alcohol fuels are known to have a high octane number, which inhibits autoignition (also known as knock; knock is self ignition of end gases ahead of the flame front occurring after spark firing) in spark-ignited internal combustion engines. This allows an internal combustion engine to be operated at a higher compression ratio and/or a higher level of pressure charging in the intake system. However, alcohol fuels are prone to pre-ignition, which is a combustion phenomenon occurring prior to spark plug firing. It is believed to be a surface phenomenon where the fuel comes in contact with a hot spot in the combustion chamber, such as the spark plug tip, a bit of carbon deposit, the piston top, and exhaust valve, and initiates a flame front.

Source: System and Method to Control Pre-Ignition in an Internal Combustion Engine - Patent application

[SilverDemon]

Pre-ignition kills instantly......Detonation kills over time, and the higher the HP per displacement the shorter amount of time it will take detonation to show it's ugly head.

[SgtP]

so are you saying meth is hurting us?

[SilverDemon]

Lex made the statement that meth is more prone to pre-ignition than gas, so if there is a pre-ignition source in the combustion chamber, then yes, the potential for a pre-ignition event is more likely when using meth or an alcohol based fuel. To me that is why it was so important to make sure that there is no way for oil to be induced into the combustion chamber, and use the coldest plugs that would be feasible to run the car on.

[Fobio]

it sounds like 100% meth might...

[djuosnteisn]

Meth is the only alcohol fuel out there. And i'm not sure whether or not Lex's quotes are in reference to "meth". For all we know it could be talking about e85.

But i agree, if it does apply, it should be taken into consideration before squirting it into your engine.



I believe if meth was horribly flawed in terms of pre-ignition, it probably wouldn't be such a popular solution in motorsports.

But if indeed the above quotes refer also to methyl alcohol, and if indeed our cylinder temps are getting hotter than other engines, i could see it being a problem.

Personally though, it's done wonders for my car, though i only run a 50/50 mix.

[AFcadet]

Originally Posted by SgtP so are you saying meth is hurting us?

No. Lex mentioned that Methanol is more susceptible to detonation with PLATINUM tipped plugs. Our upgrade that a lot of people run (denso) are iridium tipped...so that doesn't really apply to us.

But what IS possible hurting us when it comes to methanol, is the PTP Freeze Plug location.

PTP claims it was equal spraying through all cylinders...and I beleive it when they did their testing when the intake manifold was off the car, but its a whole different ball game when you have pressurized air inside the manifold.

And from Lex's findings, it seems that cylinder 1 and 4 are getting a lot less methanol then cylinders 2 and 3...thus...why cylinder 1 blew.

From Lex's discoveries...Id suggest anyone with PTPs freeze plug nozzle to turn off their meth/run a more conservative tune. I know I turned off mine and added fuel so Im seeing mid/high 11s without Meth. Im going to see if I can get my methanol plug tapped into my cold pipe.

p.s. the pictures of the pistons is from my car.

[Lex]

Methanol alcohol is more prone to pre-ignition on a hot surface than gasoline. Of course this greatly depends on the amount of methanol present, hot surfaces present (spark plugs, piston tops, deposits), intake temperature etc.

I'd stick to a 50/50 mix to simply cool intake charge.

The graph below is self explanatory. It shows that alcohol fuels ignite at lower temperatures than gasoline.

At the same TIME, alcohol has a much higher knock threshold. They are 2 different properties.

[RacingToaster]

We got to stop using as added fuel, and get the tune straight.

[06Speed6]

bahaha ive been saying meth was crap for years. Vindication at last!

Originally Posted by SilverDemon Pre-ignition kills instantly......Detonation kills over time, and the higher the HP per displacement the shorter amount of time it will take detonation to show it's ugly head.

Detonation is pre=ignition.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I believe if meth was horribly flawed in terms of pre-ignition, it probably wouldn't be such a popular solution in motorsports.

Ghetto motorsports, if it was so good you would see it in NHRA, Indy, and Nascar.

Ide bet if someone showed up with a meth tuned engine to Engine Masters they would be laughed out.

[Fobio]

from what I'm reading, anything but 100% meth should be fine...but what about the need to run a colder plug? with meth and higher pressures, wouldn't ITV24's be needed/necessary?

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Ghetto motorsports, if it was so good you would see it in NHRA, Indy, and Nascar. Ide bet if someone showed up with a meth tuned engine to Engine Masters they would be laughed out.

I'm more a fan of the water injection, not necessarily meth. I don't like meth. I think it's a horrible fuel, and dangerous if inhaled. All the books i've read shy away from it as a fuel, and say there are far better alcohol fuels like toulene.

Water injection was huge in WWII, and allowed engines do some unbelievable shit. I'm a fan of a cool combustion chamber, and water does exactly that.

[SilverDemon]

Please do not confuse detonation with pre-ignition.....two totally different events that cause different outcomes on engine failures.

Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.

Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.

Source: Detonation and Pre-Ignition
by Allen W. Cline
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon Please do not confuse detonation with pre-ignition.....two totally different events that cause different outcomes on engine failures. Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For some reason, likely heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts. The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug. Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon. Source: Detonation and Pre-Ignition by Allen W. Cline --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For all effective purposes, detonation and pre-ignition are both uncontrolled burns, and in that regard they are both the same.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I'm more a fan of the water injection, not necessarily meth. I don't like meth. I think it's a horrible fuel, and dangerous if inhaled. All the books i've read shy away from it as a fuel, and say there are far better alcohol fuels like toulene. Water injection was huge in WWII, and allowed engines do some unbelievable shit. I'm a fan of a cool combustion chamber, and water does exactly that.

Ive never knocked distilled water injection, it has more than a few uses, but I bet most of the people on here use tap water which isnt 100% water. You couldnt pay me to run limestone, floride, chlorine, and precription drugs through my engine.

Years ago I found meth injection to control knock in a gasoline engine to be almost laughable because of the ghetto way that people do it. People on here that use meth are people who dont realise that it has to be used as a standalone fuel or a specific ratio fuel that is injected into individual runners through a secondary port injection system. I know of no one on here that meters their meth injection to achieve a specific meth/gasoline ratio.

Honestly if I came on here selling a "race" fuel injection system that controlled knock by injecting a waterfall of unmetered charcoal lighter fluid through a nozzle that is drilled into a boost tube or freeze plug I would get laughed off the forums, but the meth koolaid is strong here.

Bottom line, if you want your car to not knock on pump gas, get a secondary race gas injection system or get a better tune and leave the windshield washer fluid for your windshield.

[cld12pk2go]

Guys one thing to keep in mind here is that Lex's meth data is when most of the fueling is provided with meth (M85). With meth injection, we are adding so small of a percentage of total fueling as to not likely apply to the concerns in the listed papers. It is good info, but I think we need to keep it in context.

I am still strongly of the opinion that we get enormous benefits from the BAT cooling and higher octane from meth with respect to keeping the engine in one piece.

[Fobio]

doing a quick MSDS search here for Canadians, I can safely say that all the windshield washer fluid from Canadian Tire, from MotoMaster to RainX to that NASCAR stuff has 0% glycol listed on the MSDS. All meth content is around 40 - 50%. a 1L bottle of Heet or meth hydrate (from Home Depot) added to 4L/1 gallon should make for a ~70% mix.

and as long as this stuff is easily available, I don't see the need to run 100% meth...esp since I'm not tuning for it as fuel.

[Superstretch18]

Anyone else notice that the rod that was getting meth/water (the one that didn't blow) is getting surface rust, but the one that didn't get meth/water (the one that blew) is clean? Thoughts?

Originally Posted by Lex Exhibit #2. This is the same motor, cylinder #1 that blew. It had a bent rod for a while and it finally broke loose. Cylinder #1 also got little of the meth share. This car was using FFS and experimenting with leaner A/F ratios using meth - except that poor #1, and #4 were not seeing much meth at all!

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by Superstretch18 Anyone else notice that the rod that was getting meth/water (the one that didn't blow) is getting surface rust, but the one that didn't get meth/water (the one that blew) is clean? Thoughts?

That rust happened after the engine was disassembled. The rod and piston were probably cleaned with brake clean (or some other cleaner) and then got a little wet and rusted.

EDIT: As far as Meth is concerned, I've been saying for years to only run water. Maybe a little meth (-40* washer fluid) in the winter just so things don't freeze up.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by aaronc7 awesome pics! yeah that freeze plug idea was terrible i cant believe so many liked the idea. and yes 18psi thats probably the best idea other than one in each runner etc. if you have the nozzle far enough away from the IM then it should have time to mix pretty evenly thruout the air

Based on what? I keep hearing that it was a horrilbe idea but have yet to see anyone post proof of it being so. The manifold will not allow individual runners to lean out, it would be impossible for that to happen. All 4 runners are located in the center of the manifold, if our spray point was so bad you would see several motors popping because of it, not only that but a few have pulled there manifold and taken pictures of the runners after running our WI point for several 1000 miles, all the runners are equally clean.

Originally Posted by Lex More food for thought: From SAE international: It was found that methanol fuel is more susceptible to pre-ignition compared to gasoline fuel ... Platinum tipped spark plugs were found to be highly susceptible to pre-ignition with methanol fuel. Pre-ignition and detonation tendency increase with the increase of engine load, compression ratio, inlet air temperature, advancing the ignition timing and lowering the engine speed

Well thats odd, if that were the case... then wouldn't cly's 2 and 3 have bent first based on those comments and your assumptions of the WI point? You claim that cly 1 and 4 were running lean and I have a hard time understanding how running lean could bend rods like that with out showing sign's of detonation on the heads of the pistons (don't see any speckling or hot spots on the heads of those pistons, do you?)

Last, if the car leaned out, you will not see rods getting bent, the pistons will show signs of it first, then the rods will let go, not the other way around.

If you can confirm that it was the WI point I will be more then willing to pull these items off the site and recall all of them as well with a full refund. Should be around 118 ish units that I have to recall (one would figure that if there were that many running out there, we would see more motors blown like this with similar failures to cyl's #'s 1 and 4, odd that we don't see that, but its even more odd that we are willing to make an assumption based 1/2 of the pistons, and less than 1/2 of the time taken to verify the problem).

[Lex]

The methanol flow is uneven. Whether motors will pop from it - that is unknown. AFCadet was leaning out specifically to rely on the methanol so he was pushing the envelope. Did the lack of methanol in cylinder 1 cause him to blow? Hard to say.

One thing that you can take away from this is that by placing the nozzle there, the flow is not even to all cylinders. Placing a nozzle in each runner is different and a better design. However, if you only have one nozzle, place it at a point where all airflow is forced by it.

Of course these products are sold as "install at your own risk" as are all aftermarket products.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Lex The methanol flow is uneven. Whether motors will pop from it - that is unknown. AFCadet was leaning out specifically to rely on the methanol so he was pushing the envelope. Did the lack of methanol in cylinder 1 cause him to blow? Hard to say. One thing that you can take away from this is that by placing the nozzle there, the flow is not even to all cylinders. Placing a nozzle in each runner is different and a better design. However, if you only have one nozzle, place it at a point where all airflow is forced by it. Of course these products are sold as "install at your own risk" as are all aftermarket products.

Every kit will have uneven flow, even DI kits have uneven flow because the air flow into the manifold will vary from cly to cyl (longer runners, shorter runners, hotter from cly 1 to cly 4 ect ect). The best you could do is get a wideband and EGT probe on each cly to determine which ones need more or less for the car.

So, know you are saying that the WI point may or may not have caused the issue? I will stick by my testing and my sales of 100's of these to customers without ever seeing an issue like this.

Last, is there something your getting at by stating "all airflow"? Last time I checked "all the airflow" entered into the manifold, and all the airflow traveled up into the "W" designed runners. Cly pulses will determine how much each cyl requires but they all get what is being delivered to them, no matter where excluding DI nozzle placement. Just as long as your applying WI fluid under boost, there is not reason any cyl should be starved based on nozzle location.

[djuosnteisn]

DI = PI

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn DI = PI

Sorry, PI for WI. I should had stated PI systems with individual nozzles.

[11cruzito11]

Here is my #3 piston and rod.

How does it look?

[darth vader]

...blurry....

[Verocious]

Hi Everyone,

Tim here from Verocious. Dan told me there was interest to see some of the photos from a Speed3 failure analysis we are working on in the shop at the moment. I am the marketing manager, so I do not have any additional info or specifics, however, Dan will be commenting further later today as he is the one heading up this job.

Tim

[Lex]

That piston was riding right against the side of the bore for at least a little while to scuff it up like that before the rod broke.

[djuosnteisn]

is that cylinder 3 or 2?

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by Lex That piston was riding right against the side of the bore for at least a little while to scuff it up like that before the rod broke.

which side? the same side getting wash down?

[Lex]

I want to say the rod bent and rode the side of the bore until it finally broke but I will wait for the guys with the parts in hand to chime in.

Originally Posted by Fobio which side? the same side getting wash down?

No, the washed down side is the exhaust side. This is at 90 degrees to that.

[Verocious]

The pic of the cylinder that has the scuffing on the timing chain side of the cylinder is #3, #2 (which is bent but not broken) has the same scuffing but not as severe so I would agree with Lex that the rod bent, rode the cylinder wall for a little while then broke. For some reason though rod #4 was in the worste condition of the rods that were left intact but that cylinder if I recall correctly did not have the scuffing on the timing chain side of the cylinder only the exhaust side.

Is this scuffing on the timing chain side of the cylinder common with these motors? Has anyone claimed to have a vibrating clutch pedal right before throwing a rod?

Lex, I checked with the customer and he said that it would be fine for me to send the rods out to you but he would like to keep the broken one as it is a pretty pricey paperweight. I should have a total of 7 rods to send over to you, 4 from a CX-7 donor motor and 3 out of the speed3.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by Verocious Is this scuffing on the timing chain side of the cylinder common with these motors? Has anyone claimed to have a vibrating clutch pedal right before throwing a rod? .

LOL

Lots of people have had the dreaded clutch vibes before blowing.
Not everyone though, couldnt give a percentage.
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...lp-asap-25124/
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-speed3-23806/
I think its toast.....
There she blows!!!!
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...e-thread-6113/

[Bonafide_Spd3]

Damn, this is crazy stuff