Synthetic oil really needed?

[danesti]

i just put semi synth bend in. 10w 40 to stop the damn smoking from the stock turbo so the fuzz will let my car be legal again.
otherwise im using synthetic.

[Frequentflyer]

I've been using 5W-40 Shell Rotella T Syn for a few months now. Today I installed an RPMC turbo inlet and noted that there was absolutely no remnants of motor oil in my Cobb intake elbo, OE turbo inlet or turbo. Nothing. They were dry and the blades on the turbo were clean. I've got about 10,500 miles on the car.

[gsrtype1]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I've stuck with regular oil on my car and just just make it a point to change it every 3k exactly. My meth cleans out the motor anyway and keeps temps down. so I don't believe I have to worry to much.

HA! cool sig bro! yeah I love the Diesel! few people now he is Black dude!

[redspeed]

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 what about Duralube, they claim independent tests of there pruduct proved it wouldnt break down under extreme bearing presure and that the engine would run without oil for a temporary period of time?

I can sell you some flux generators for $29.99 that will give your ms3 100whp extra!!!

Dude seriously, if you believe that crap you're crazy. NO cheap azz oil additive can make your engine run w/out oil. No oil = metal to metal contact= crazy heat & friction= seized engine. No car maker recommends using oil additives, because they don't work.

If use regular oil and you change it @3k miles you'll be fine. But Synthetic is more resistant to the stuff(heat, contamination, etc) that kills the regular @ higher miles. Do a good search online and you'll find the evidence you want.

[Super Unique]

exactly redspeed.

There have been many, many additives over the years, none of them much good, most have been proven to be ineffective, especially the super ads like slick50 and duralube. Customer testaments have been made up, or misled consumers who figure the additive helped, when their regular and thorough maintenance schedule is actually responsible for the longevity of their cars. Just changing with a quality regular oil on a regular schedule of 3 to 4 thousand miles is all you need to do. Further good things to do are have a used oil analysis done from time to time to ensure your change interval is good enough.

[gsrtype1]

Yeah but how could they put that on tv if it didn't work? seems like someone would call bs, plus ive read articles that discussed the benifts of a super thick film that is created on internal engine parts.

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 Yeah but how could they put that on tv if it didn't work? seems like someone would call bs

You are saying that TV advertising equates to legit product?

everyone is calling BS. It's too expensive to buy a product, have it fuck up your shit, and then try to bring a civil or criminal suit to recover damages. Most people don't have money to try something likely to lead to damages and then fund any type of litigation - it isn't worth it. It's much more efficient to JUST NOT BUY THE BS PRODUCT.

[TurboGhost]

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 eh.. put some slick fifty in every 3-4 oil changes and you get the same affect. Good article though if true then it would give better protection at start up wich is important! But use slick fifty or duralube every 3-4 oil changes would be much cheaper alternative for same result.

gsr ---
Don't put doofus juice in your oil. Those are all advertising targeted to what people will believe and unrelated to what the product does. IF you're lucky, the additive will not do much harm. Slick 50 etc (the same stuff is sold under many different names) managed to annoy enough people to get the FTC's attention, though they pretty much ignore the whole automotive magic sector. S 50 lost of course, bc their claims were false. You can waste much time sorting through anecdotes and claims about it; instead head over to BobIsTheOilGuy and search around. They have the some of the usual internet time suck junk BUT they also have engineers who design motor oil.

Or consider just one thing: Oils have an additive package that matches the base oil, the intended use and the price point when it's all done. Not all additives are compatible with each other and different add packs work with different base oils esp when you get into group IV and V synth. If there were real, useful additives in the mystery juice they would be incompatible with some base oils and add packs. So what's in it? Probably a thick oil and a "magic" ingredient, which if you're lucky gets filtered out.

IMHO, this engine is one of the cases where you need to spend the $$ for synthetic oil, even if it's only a Group III. Synth leaves less sludge and crud and handles heat better.

[Frequentflyer]

Slick 50 has Teflon in it, which is a solid. It has been theorized that this shit can come out of suspension and do more harm than good.

[soul.survivor]

Bob Is The Oil Guy

Synthetic is a lot better than dino oil. Mobil1 isn't that good, some UOAs have come back with awful looking results. They reduced the quality of their oil a couple years ago, it's a group III base stock now if IIRC, used to be group IV. Oil is not oil, there are many variations, each with their own strengths and weaknesses.

You can either read many pages of technical info, look at UOAs, and learn a lot about it or you can put whatever makes you feel good in it and hope for the best. I guarantee what you see on teevee is 90% b.s. though...the slick50 crap is closer to 100%.

My dealership said they used a synth blend, I read somewhere that's what comes in these cars from the factory. I used castrol blend for my 1st oil change, I'll switch to full synth around 10K miles. Probably AMSoil, Torco, Redline, or Penzoil Platinum. Haven't decided which yet. Something with group IV base stock for sure.

[mouse0330]

I use full synth mobil 1 on mine awhile back 5w-30, and about 3500 to 4000 miles, my oil gets really dark, I mean black dark, now is that normal? Should synthetic look like that after 3000 to 4000 miles, I changed it right there when I saw that. I do drive hard sometimes/well mostly freeway miles, no track, just fast freeway driving.

[Frequentflyer]

You want it to get dark. That means it's doing its job. The color of oil is not a good indication of its life expectancy. This motor naturally beats the shit out of oil, but 3000-4000 mile intervals have proven to be fine by analysis.

I'll be sending a sample of my Rotella T Syn 5W-40 out to Blackstone sometime next week when I change mine at 5k.

[Silver Ecstasy]

The problem with this entire oil debate is, none of us are going to tear the engine down from top to bottom to see what weight of oil or type of oil provided what kind of results?

It's almost all just a guess, that this weight did this, and synthetic did that.

I try to give Mazda the benefit of the doubt. If they were going to recommend synthetic, they would have it, or pre-installed it.

I still consider changing at 5,000 to synthetic. I don't have a clue what type or brand.

[eddelgado]

If you want to know how the oil is doing then get your oil analyzed. You can pick up an oil analyzis kit at NAPA for about $15.

Ed

[johnnyspeed6]

Originally Posted by gtlaw regular mobil1 is the only oil I ran in my speed. I see no need to run synthetic with how often I'm changing my oil. I did it at 400, 2000, I plan on doing it at 4,000, then every 2,500 after that

I always run synthetic in all my cars for one reason, I have an actual real world situation that made me never change it again .. I was driving my brothers 89 Lx 5.0 mustang several summers ago, he uses castrol syntec... 5pm traffic, oil pump dies .. pressure goes to 0 ... I went home another 15miles .. the car did not start sounding funny until right before I got there ... pulled the covers and heads ..everything still gold inside .. no issues .. he still has it .. runs like a treat .. IF, anything ever does fail like that on me .. I want the synthetic stuff .. saved my ass!! .. btw, im in texas and it was summer time ... Synthetic is the shit .. spent a few more dollars on the changes but saved an entire motor .. just my experience.. no bs

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by eddelgado If you want to know how the oil is doing then get your oil analyzed. You can pick up an oil analyzis kit at NAPA for about $15. Ed

The guy before you was saying that you can't analyze the ENGINE itself - he wasn't talking about the oil analysis that can definitely be done and frequently can show certain aspects of wear by what contaminants are present and in what amounts.

Originally Posted by johnnyspeed6 I always run synthetic in all my cars for one reason, I have an actual real world situation that made me never change it again .. I was driving my brothers 89 Lx 5.0 mustang several summers ago, he uses castrol syntec... 5pm traffic, oil pump dies .. pressure goes to 0 ... I went home another 15miles .. the car did not start sounding funny until right before I got there ... pulled the covers and heads ..everything still gold inside .. no issues .. he still has it .. runs like a treat .. IF, anything ever does fail like that on me .. I want the synthetic stuff .. saved my ass!! .. btw, im in texas and it was summer time ... Synthetic is the shit .. spent a few more dollars on the changes but saved an entire motor .. just my experience.. no bs

I'm not saying that synthetics don't have value, but how do you know it was the synthetic oil that "saved" the motor? Do you know for a fact that that same engine would NOT have reacted the same way had dino oil been used for its life? I use synthetic all the time - and have for the last ~8 years and it's never failed me. But it isn't a miracle product either....

[johnnyspeed6]

Originally Posted by mdogg The guy before you was saying that you can't analyze the ENGINE itself - he wasn't talking about the oil analysis that can definitely be done and frequently can show certain aspects of wear by what contaminants are present and in what amounts. I'm not saying that synthetics don't have value, but how do you know it was the synthetic oil that "saved" the motor? Do you know for a fact that that same engine would NOT have reacted the same way had dino oil been used for its life? I use synthetic all the time - and have for the last ~8 years and it's never failed me. But it isn't a miracle product either....

agreed on the miracle product, its not, but I truly beleive it is a step above the dino oil .. I really dont think dino would have held up to the heat and friction inside that motor .. I mean those are the claims they make anyway which I never believed .. u know on the commercials where they drain the motor and it keeps on running ...... happened to me... i guess in the end it gives me a warm and fuzzy and thats what is important to me .. and until it screws me ill keep on wit it .. u dig

p.s -- no i cant say that the same motor would have dont the exact thing would dino oil in it .. but on the other hand I sure as hell aint trying

[Silver Ecstasy]

Oil analysis is fine, but we won't see what it does on the inside of the engine. Only what oil manufacturers want us to believe or see in terms of engine sludge and buildup on vehicles with their own before and afters.

I've started to trust Mazda more for their suggestions or word. They have proven to me with their product and examples that they are definitely not like the typical car manufacturer that builds something faulty or set to fail right from the beginning. There arn't a lot that we could change about our cars that makes our cars bad to begin with (not counting motor mount). What I mean is, i'm almost confident that with dino oil and regular OCI's, this car would run absolutely fine. Now, synthetic is definitely not a bad idea.

[Crossbow]

Few notes:

"I've started to trust Mazda more for their suggestions or word."
Hardly any of us have ever spoken to an actual Mazda employee. The people you've been speaking too are mechanics, which have licenses to work on Mazda vehicles. These individuals (tech's, service managers) are employees of a dealership, not Mazda. They get their information from Mazda bulletins, and esi.mazdausa.com. (You can get access yourself at Mazda Technical Information). The regional Mazda rep for your area or state, is the closest thing any of us have ever been to an actual Mazda employee.

As such, when talking about Mazda tech's, realize you're just talking about the tech's at a particular dealership, not employees who have direct lines of communication with Mazda. Even QMD Service Managers (of which there is only a handful in the United States), only get to talk to "actual" Mazda Tech's about once a month. It is these QMD service managers who bring up issues to Mazda, and set about getting things changed or modified for the overall fleet.

When it comes down to it, the average Dealership tech or service manager, knows exactly as much as you do, or less. (generally less depending on the area).

Additionally, Mazda pays a group of employees to watch forums very carefully, and report on common issues, and possible exploitations (such as the rx8 GPS upgrade hack). These employees will never post. I don't know if any are on this forum, but I do know that many of the higher volume riff raff forums are being watched.

synthetic oils.
Is it worthwhile to change synthetic oil every 2-3k? Not really. You could easily use semi-synthetic (the required oil) for the vehicle, and be fine with such rapid oil changes. Now moving those changes to 5k+ on semi-syn? I'd make sure to do a UOA and watch the fuel dilution and remaining additive level. Because semi-syn oils only have about a 10% synthetic makeup, they can be more susceptible to shearing overtime then a full syn oil. And shearing seems to be one of the issues with this particular engine.

Synthetics have an advantage over standard oil mainly due to their sheer resistance caused by the fact all their "created" molecules are uniform. There is no inherent weakpoint in the molecular chain, so synthetics tend to have higher HTHS #'s (high temp high shear) then those of lesser oils. What's HTHS? It's a number which represents the oil's resistance to shearing out of grade in something like a turbo bearing, where the heat and pressure is extremely high.

Because of the inherent resistance to shearing, syn oil's don't need to use as much as their additive packs towards shear stability, and instead, use them on cleaners, maintainers, etc. One of the old wives tales of syn's is if you put them in an older engine, it'll cause all the seals to fail. It's partially true. If the seals have fallen apart and are only being held together by engine gunk, and then you dump some syn in there (packed with more detergent abilities then standard dino oils), it rips out the gunk, and exposes the leaking seals. It wasn't the syn's fault, it was the worn out seals in the first place.

Another advantage of the uniformity is in overall bond strength. (This goes along with the HTHS numbers). Synthetics have higher and lower temp ceilings then semi-syn or dino oils. So when you shut your engine off, and some oil is sitting around the turbo, you've got less of a chance of the oil being "cooked" (look up turbo turds online) in the turbo bearings. Of course, since the coolant continues to circulate anyway (when the engines off through a process known as thermo siphoning), this is kinda of a mute point, but is still nice to know regardless.

Of course if you include the cost of a UOA with your semi-syn oil purchase, you could have just put full synthetic in the car....

My stance? I extend the oil change to around 4-5k, and use full syn. I just carefully watch sales on the oil I use (Penzoil Platnium) and purchase the oil in the 5 qt jugs. Generally you can get 5qts for 19 bucks, and the last qt for around 5-6 on sale. That sure beats the redline 5w-20 I used to run in my Mazda6s...those oil changes cost me like 50 bucks! (Oh before you guys cringe at 5w-20 in a track car...redline 5w-20 has one of the highest HTHS #'s of any oil in its grade, 30 weight, and even some 40 weight oils.)

[SgtP]

i switched from PP 10w30 to AMSOIL 5w40 and my smoking stopped. Thats enough of a reason for me to keep using it.

[Grim]

Originally Posted by Frequentflyer I've been using 5W-40 Shell Rotella T Syn for a few months now. Today I installed an RPMC turbo inlet and noted that there was absolutely no remnants of motor oil in my Cobb intake elbo, OE turbo inlet or turbo. Nothing. They were dry and the blades on the turbo were clean. I've got about 10,500 miles on the car.

Same here

[Frequentflyer]

Well I screwed the pooch getting a sample of my Rotella yesterday when I changed it. I said to myself, make sure you don't dump the half a can of Seafoam in the crankcase before you get a sample. Sure enough, I dumped the can of Seafoam in there before I could get a sample, so I didn't bother getting the sample. I figured it was going to contaminate my results. Next time I guess. I drive 2000 miles a month, so it shouldn't be too long.