Mazdaspeed Forums - Testing a new Ignition Upgrade

Mazdaspeed Forums (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/)

- MazdaSpeed 3 - Engine, Transmission & Driveline (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f10/)

- - Testing a new Ignition Upgrade - Plasma System (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f10/testing-new-ignition-upgrade-plasma-system-136405/)

Testing a new Ignition Upgrade - Plasma System

So from what it seems, it looks like our ignition system might get a upgrade. I been helping out a company testing a plasma type ignition system and from what the butt dyno tells me (and dashdaq logs) the car drives and feels better. I can tell there has been a increase is mileage and as well as power and the small traces of knock I would have haven't shown since I been testing the system.

SPDi Spark is the company for the product - SPDi Spark . I was approached to help and figured that it might be a product that would help us, and so why not.

However this is where I need more help from the forum. Short of dyno runs (hopefully I can get something worked out here soonish to get some dyno runs going), what else would be something to look for test for.

I realize that buttdyno is subjective hence I am looking for what else to look for short of dyno runs and ignition timings (before and after). Hopefully while I have the system for the next while I can test/lookup whatever some of you gearheads want or think might be beneficial and help us learn more and prove if this works or does not work for us.

Any thoughts? suggestions? ideas?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll cut and paste some info from the website incase those that want to read some more without going to the website:

Quote:

How is SPDi different from Inductive and CDI Ignition Systems?
There are many differences between SPDi and traditional ignition systems. The five main differences that separate SPDi from traditional inductive and capacitive discharge ignition systems are:
• Plasma vs Heat
• Spark Power Level
• Spark Duration
• Multiple Sparks
• Programmability

Plasma vs Heat
Traditional ignition systems initiate the burning process with heat. Once the fuel around the spark has been burned, the traditional spark no longer contributes to the burning process. SPDi uses heat to initiate the burning process, then applies plasma to support the entire combustion event.

Spark Power Level
Our testing shows that power delivery influences the combustion efficiency. Different engine operating regimes can be optomized with spark power levels. Inductive ignition systems deliver a spark power that is dependent on available dwell time. Dwell time decreases as rpm increases and available spark power can suffer. CD ignition systems deliver spark power in very short bursts.

SPDi's Spark Shaping technology can control power delivery levels to help optimize combustion.

Spark Duration
Spark duration is the length of time that a spark plug creates a "spark". Sparks usually have a pre defined spark length. Inductive Discharge (ID) is the most common form of spark found in automotive engines. ID sparks are typically 1ms in duration. Capacitive Discharge (CD) is a popular aftermarket ignition system. A CD spark is typically 50 micro seconds long. Some CD systems can produce multiple sparks. SPDi's plasma spark duration is programmable. A typical SPDi spark is 2ms to 4ms in duration.

Multiple Sparks
An inductive ignition system produces a single spark with a relatively long duration (1 ms).
Most CDi systems produce multiple sparks below 3000 rpm. This usually means 3 to 6 individual CDi spark pulses of about 50 micro seconds each. These sparks tend to be spaced about 1ms apart to allow time for the capacitor to recharge. Above 3000 rpm CDi systems generally produce a single short spark because of the time it takes to recharge the capacitor. At 3000 rpm a 1ms delay in the second spark would result in a 18 degree delay in the spark. This would likely be too retarded to be useful for the combustion process. We have seen some CDi systems that produce multiple sparks at higher rpm.
A typical 2 ms SPDI spark will produce more than 50 individual spark pulses. SPDi's ability to produce multiple sparks is not limited by the engine's rpm. Even at 15,000 rpm, SPDi can produce more than 10 individual spark pulses per cylinder.

Programmability
SPDi's programability goes beyond any ignition system available today. All ignition systems have programmable spark advance. However, only SPDi Spark provides complete control over spark delivery. SPDi's Spark Shaping Technology enables the control of power delivery, spark duration and number of sparks produced.
Each SPDi ignition module can be user programmed using the SPDi Manager Software and the SPDi USB programming cable. The SPDi Manager Software allows the module's programming to be updated and the Spark Profiles to be adjusted.
Spark Profiles enable the adjustment of engine performance. Spark Profiles affect the engine's fuel efficiency, emissions, power delivery and crispness. You have to try it to believe it.

How does SPDi Work?
Traditional Inductive, Capacitive Discharge and Magneto ignition systems generate sparks to create heat. The heat created by the spark initiates the fuel burning process. Once the fuel is burning, the job of the traditional spark is complete.
SPDi Spark is quite different. SPDi uses a technique called Spark Shaping to create non equilibrium plasma. SPDi's plasma extends the influence of the spark to the entire combustion process.

The SPDi process consists of:
Phase 1: Breakdown - Initial breakdown of the Spark Plug Gap;
Phase 2: Ignition Delay - Sufficient energy to help stabilize the flame kernel and promote growth; and
Phase 3: Plasma Support - Continuous non equilibrium plasma to support flame front propagation.

Stable flame kernal growth and flame front propagation is key to the efficiency gains created by SPDi. The Ignition Delay phase feeds the flame kernal and helps promote smooth growth. The 3rd phase of the SPDi ignition process helps promote combustion by exciting the combustible materials at the flame front.This excitation process reduces the amount of heat energy required to activate the air/fuel mixture. This saved energy results in greater process efficiency. (more torque or better fuel economy and lower emissions)
SPDi Spark Features

SPDi Spark is a programmable ignition system that allows owners to download Spark Profiles and program upgrades from the SPDi Spark web site.
Some interesting characteristics of the SPDi process are:
1) Increased spark burn duration (programmable to any crank angle)
2) Programmable Breakdown Current to ionize the spark plug gap
3) Current regulation to promote non equilibrium plasma formation
4) Misfires minimized by achieving a high degree of spark extinguishing immunity
5) Reduction in timing advance sensitivity
6) Minimization of Spark Plug Degradation

Research of the SPDi technology continues. We are continuing to discover new
characteristics and applications of the technology.
We are working on an open source software platform that will allow owner's to create their own user interface and control modules.

What is a Spark Profile?
SPDi uses a technique called Spark Shaping to control the 3 spark phases. Breakdown, Ignition Delay, Plasma Support. The Spark Profile determines the characteristics of each phase including: duration, intensity and polarity.
SPDi Spark is user programmable using the SPDi Manager Software. We provide a number of Spark Profiles on the SPDi Spark web site that can be downloaded and installed by the user. Each Spark Profile provides a unique way of controlling the spark delivery. You can optomize the performance of your engine with different Spark Profiles.
SPDi Manager Software allows the user to create different Spark Profiles for different rpm ranges. This helps deliver the optimum spark for cranking, idle, cruise and acceleration.

Pic of dirty bay with the open wiring loom of the ignition system.

Subbed for curiosity.

Give it a little tap, a tap tap tap-a-roo

Hm...veeerry interesting. 60-100 runs are usually a good indicator of increased power if you have some before runs to compare to. What kind of gas mileage increase did you notice?

I Tapped that

How do they differentiate heat ranges?

That read was a mind fuck

Tapin it

subbed for interest, looks like it will run in between stock parts, I am curious not only about heat range of the plugs (I would think you would want to go very cold as you can control spark quality now in another way) but also longevity of the plugs compared to OEM...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweetsandman (Post 1859152)

Hm...veeerry interesting. 60-100 runs are usually a good indicator of increased power if you have some before runs to compare to. What kind of gas mileage increase did you notice?

I Tapped that

It was very informal test as I got the system to test on Friday (out all day sat so I kinda did a bit of the test there). What I did was get to where the gaslight came on, filled 10 bucks see how far I could go when I didnt have the system. Then the same test with the system BUT i filled with the amount of liters I had when I didnt have the system (I kept the fuel amount the same).

Without.

10 bucks at 1.41 bucks a liter = 7.09 liters
I got 73Kms

With.

7.09 liters (costed 10.21, 1.44 bucks a liter)
I got 77Kms

Only a 4Km difference, could be the error factor/driving conditions (they were relatively the same) it was all done on highway at the same station/route to try and keep it the same but again its not really scientific, merely a quick test on my own. I would need more controled conditions. But if this is kinda prelude to what it COULD do, then I would estimate maybe ~30 kms more a tank. Not a huge difference but a difference none the less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokay444 (Post 1859228)

How do they differentiate heat ranges?

It uses iridium plugs, and lucky for us thats stock so basically I used stock plugs but gapped them .20-.22. So you can choose the heat range according to your plug is how I understand it.

It has its own module box (bout the size of a hockey puck) and uses some sorta denso/motorcycle coils (I have 4 of them on the car, replacing each of the stock coils) and obviously its own wiring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yatta (Post 1859260)

I am not sure on the longevity of the plugs to be honest as I just got it to test. Honestly I dont think I'll be able to test it that long for longevity, however what I would say is I would probably think that the spark plugs wouldnt last as long as they would if the ignition system is stock. I look at it as a byproduct of modding/more performance. I do my oil changes at 4000kms, could I run 6000kms? Probably. Would I? No. I perfer to side on the side of caution and change it a bit early. Same deal here, I would probably endup changing them once a year or even every 3-4 oil changes to make sure I am getting the most out of the system. BUT for what 40 bucks for a set of plugs online, not a big price to pay to make sure the system is running perfectly. But this is purely my own opinon.

------------------------

What else do you guys want me to test? any idea's of what I could test? how to test? what would yeild some results that we we would be interested in?

Again it feels like its working and doing something, but I need to figureout what else I can test to get some quantifyable results (dyno would be one way, but what else is there?). I just want to make sure if this is something that will help this platform, or something that really wont help. I assume Big Turbo guys with blowout or whatever might benefit from this more then anyone. However I think closest competitor to this would be the Kenne Bell Boost a Spark (even though both systems are different) thats where my mind immedately goes to.

Also how would I go about testing spark time itself? Anything to specifically log? The DashDAQ doesnt have anything other then timing (even with the enhanced ford PIDs). What I am trying to figure is stock the ECU sends the signal to the coils, in this system it sends to the Module Box THEN to the Coils...does this introduce any sort of latency? in my mind it would? But is it enough to cause anything?

I'll see if I can tag some of the bigger gear heads then me into this...

@Lex;
@Dano;
@djuosnteisn;
@MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex;

Feel free to tag anyone else that might have some insight.

Heres 2 pics I got from their website. Might help some understand more.

Heres one of the spark and one of the software. I attached them.

I got some beachfront property in Arizona that ill sell you if you think this snake oil works.

Here's a good thread about it (I think, haven't finished it).

SPDI plasma ignition - Turbobricks Forums

And since they're in Canadia, maybe @Lex would be interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haltech (Post 1860872)

I got some beachfront property in Arizona that ill sell you if you think this snake oil works.

Sure? Is it free....

I aint paying anything for this... Just testing to help out and see if this helps the platform. If it doesnt, it doesnt...if it does, it does. Hence I am asking what else can we test or would be a test to indicate if it does or doesnt work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phate (Post 1860888)

Here's a good thread about it (I think, haven't finished it).

SPDI plasma ignition - Turbobricks Forums

Yeah I read some of that. Seems like the results were posted were hearsay or rather doubted.

I am interested to see if this works. Hence I am asking the bigger gearheads here what could suffice that would prove or disprove this.

Same car, same hard parts setup, the only thing that changes is the ignition system. Fully tune them on a dyno (fuel of your choice) until knock or MBT is reached. Watch what happens in the tune along with the power curve, BSFC, and emissions (probably can't get this, though) would tell us results.

Yesterday a guy came on a local forum saying they have a similar product (Okada PlasmaDirect) available but only for EVO's and Subaru's for now. They didn't have any part# specific to our cars (only for Miata's and rotary powered Mazda's) and that guy pointed me to the HKS DLI2 TwinPower.

Ok, so now what's supposed to be the difference between the two? One (HKS) controls the voltage and has a more accurate way of making that voltage available as much as possible and the other one is accomplishing about the same using better coils?

Subbed

As long as the price doesn't trump the HKS system

DIY SPDi Kit | SPDi Spark

DIY kit is 430 CAD, but you need to add coils and who knows what else, also note it will shut off if it gets to 100 Degrees C, likely not a problem but mounting it close to the coil packs might not be a good thing. curious and agree that same car, pre/post on a dyno would be a good thing, a long term test and eval on fuel use and plug wear would be another.

I think its a great system if the system its replacing sucks, otherwise its a waste of money.

I like to rate parts like this by cost vs power. If it added 2hp and cost $400 then it gives ya 1hp for every $200. Compaired to a downpipe that gives 30hp for $400ish, its gonna be last on almost everyones list.

starscream, if you know pippy with the Evo X, you'll know that he also dyno tested this for SPDi on his Evo at APH and it did diddly squat.

if you take the BS filter to their "technical" mumbo jumbo you'll see that you could achieve the same thing by indexing your spark plugs.

It's been proven repeatedly that "plasma," plugs are snake oil. Why are we wasting your time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MajesticBlueNTO (Post 1872213)

I dont know Pippy... Do you know what forums hes apart of? or what other results he had? I wouldnt mind talking to him to get more information as to what happened, and what was tested etc etc.

Thanks for the info though.

I just want to get more info/results on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzle (Post 1872222)

It's been proven repeatedly that "plasma," plugs are snake oil. Why are we wasting your time?

Just curious, where has it been repeatedly proven? Not bashing, but honestly asking most of the research and reading i have come across is either a) not enough testing b) inconclusive c) people ranting that it doesnt work (but to prove something doesnt work there needs to be attempt to prove that it does work not just "hey it doesnt work") d) works but costs too much to be useful

Again, not bashing, but honestly trying to get whatever informaiton I can get my hands on, and as well do whatever testing I can, and post results.

So far Dyno and Exhaust Gas analysing is what most are asking for, but what else can I do? Any more info totally would help.

Its nearly untestable because its effect is so small that is falls within the same range as the oem coil.

I find it funny because people call the, spark plugs they don't actually spark they arc. So we should've calling them arc plugs. Since arcing is a form of a gas in a plasma state we already have a plasma ignition. Clever marketing but a silly product in my opinion. To be honest all you would have to do is upgrade the stock capacitor and you could do the same thing as this system. The part that I am concerned with is now that you are interrupting the stock signal you will start to affect the latency calculator done by the ECU so you may in fact loose power because of the improper timing. This isn't like extending a conductor which has no effect on latency. This is adding more control to something that works properly as it is which generally leads to problems.