Tired of blown engines/turbos? How about a CAL?

[Silver Ecstasy]

Back in the day, there was a successful Class Action Lawsuit against GM and Dexcool. GM was using Dexcool coolant which in turn was dry-rotting the Lower Intake Manifold gaskets. The consequence would involve coolant leaking into your oil supply, along with ruining my oil pump. The service repair cost would range from $800-$1500 depending on independent shops to dealership appraisals. I'd had the repair done on both my 94 Grand Am and my 03 Grand Am, and it plagued all GM vehicles equipped with the 3.1 liter to 3.4 liter V6 engines used in the Grand Am/Alero/Malibu. The same engine is used today in the last body Chevy Equinox/Pontiac Torrent and it's easy to spot the failure. Take the oil cap off and you'll find a nice milky residue underneath the cap.

My point is this:

We may not have much out-of-pocket expenses with faulty engine/turbos (except for those with voided warranties due to modded engines) but Mazda can only be doing 1 of 2 things:

-Researching and fixing the flaw, to be announced in an upcoming recall
or
-Researching a patch, without any guarantee of a long-term fix and inadvertently screwing us over in the process for anyone interested in keeping our beloved MS6/MS3/CX7's.

While Mazda continues to operate VERY quietly and privately, we remain in the dark entirely. I even got a chance to speak with a respected technician at my Mazda dealership. When I inquired on a downpipe and how it might affect the car, his answer was simple - Mazda knows there's major issues with the engines and turbos and people shouldn't be giving them any reasons to NOT warranty cars because of aftermarket equipment.

Now I know all about the magnuson-moss act but let's be honest, so far, they could care-less.

A class action lawsuit might be the ticket to really getting the ball moving on this fix, don't you guys think??

[m4tic]

get all the stock blown ppl and form a posse...

[JMEngineer]

Im kinda hoping I blow my engine so I can justify a DCR build, but I would be all for it if I could get some moneys from Mazda.

[Target:STi]

you would only be able to involve people that have blown up completly stock, and were always completely stock. which youre not going to find too many of on car forums. mazda doesnt care about cars that have blown up even the least bit modified, proof or no. MM act or no.

heres a thought, ask your mazda mechanic friend if he can access a database of all the 2.3 MZR engine failures nationwide, listing the failures and apparent causes. it would probably not be admissable in any court whatsoever but i would gladly pay money to see that list.

[Silver Ecstasy]

Well, he's very experienced there, but he doesn't exactly know why they're having so many issues. He just knows that Mazda for sure realizes there's an issue. He's just not exactly sure what they're trying to do to fix it.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Silver Ecstasy Well, he's very experienced there, but he doesn't exactly know why they're having so many issues. He just knows that Mazda for sure realizes there's an issue. He's just not exactly sure what they're trying to do to fix it.

How many blown DISI engines does he see? Are they all speed engines or also CX7? Also does he see later year models come in with blown motors or is it mainly 06 and 07?

[Silver Ecstasy]

He's seen a fair amount of blown turbos replaced (MS3 and MS6), and even made mention of how often he sees CX-7's with issues (Didn't make me feel too great, i've got 2 of these engines in the household LOL). I was sorta running out of time (Whenever we're up at the dealership, we get a chance to talk with everyone and shoot the shit, but the CX-7's oil change had been done and was waiting...she was getting impatient, so we had to run).

I will pretty much hang out in the back while they're working on cars and shoot the shit. Almost all the techs admitted there is a faulty PCV design on the car that Mazda is STILL perfecting, but until then, people were still having really weird failures on the car.

When asked about the downpipe, he pretty much told me to fall back on the speed mods until Mazda fixes everything first, rather than giving them an opportunity to void me because of an aftermarket part.

[khris2476]

And when they find a solution, if they ever, what mass recall???

[Silver Ecstasy]

If these Honeywell/Garrett turbos (Ford EcoBoost turbos) turn out to be the only fix for Mazda's shitty choice of Hitachi/Borg Warner turbo, then a recall would be the best thing next to happen.

[jahman]

Recall would be great. Fixing our engine's flaws would be great. At least TELLING us whats wrong would be good.

However, you have to understand a recall of this magnitude would put mazda under. The amount of money it would cost them is unimaginable. Its obvious that the problem lies within the internals, the labor and cost involved will be extremely high.

I hate to be pessimistic...but while a CAL needs to happen I totally agree, its going to take a phenomenal amount of work to gather everyone up, and gather all the information. And in the end if we win we're just going to get an extended warranty, no recall because it'd put mazda down for good. This means we'd all STILL be wondering if today is gonna be the day it blows every time we drove it, and we'd still only get the warranty covered if we were bone stock. I guess its better than nothing, but the problem will always remain.

[JMEngineer]

IMO, Honeywell>>>Hitachi/Borg Warner

A new turbo would be awesome, but I doubt there will be any kind of mass recall. They would most likely just change the spec and if your turbo needs to be replaced, they would use the new turbo. If you're not under warranty then that money would be coming out of your pocket.

[Silver Ecstasy]

I experienced a similar situation when I had my 05 GTO. When the 04 GTO was introduced, there was a problem discovered with the rear differentials provided by Dana. They were doing exchanges per a TSB where Dana would be doing core charges basically. The same could happen in this situation, only Mazda would have to put up a legal battle with Hitachi/Borg Warner. They should be held accountable for an inferior product. Mazda contracted them but Hitachi should be held accountable.

[IshiKage]

i say we do what we need to do. and get all the forums behind it. putting the fire under mazda for this bullshit

[Silver Ecstasy]

That's a great way to put it. Between Haltech, Antoine and M3F, there should be enough people to complete a list of people who have had:

-Detailed Engine Failure (defect/damage done)
-Turbo Smoking (# of turbos replaced)

Compile a MASTER list with VIN #'s or something potent for Mazda to use, and send that shit in a neatly written document.

That would make a PROFOUND statement to Mazda to have something like that show up on their doorsteps, both here and in Japan. Whatcha guys think????

[jahman]

I've been all for it for a long time now.

If you or anyone wants to lead this then you've got my support. But I sure do hope you have a lot of time on your hands because this isnt gonna be easy.

Someone has to get the ball rolling. This has been a lot of talk and no action for a while now, so it'd be awesome to see some action being taken.

[Silver Ecstasy]

Well, first thing would be to involve our own forum Admin here first. I respect his opinion first and foremost because he seems to be the most active on his own forum and seems to really have his stuff together. If he's interested, then I think that's a start. From there, the communication can start with the other forums. But we'd better get organized first really. We need to find out either from an attorney or from someone "on the inside" who could tell us what's really going to make a difference in this matter.

Rather than making a gigantic rolodex of blown engines/turbos lol..

[MZRDISI4]

Getting one of these up off the ground isn't easy. You'd need to have a large record (owner information/cause of failure etc.) of stock failures.. I don't think there is enough yet

GM Settles Lawsuit Over Faulty Saturn Transmissions - GM Inside News Forum

[khris2476]

I believe mazda will keep it down low, they would lose money either way with a recall or with extended warranty. Then they would just single those out who are modified stating that it was the mods you put that led to this.

[Blackspeed]

This subject has already been discussed. You have no proof that there is a defect. I can see if someone here actually found out the exact problem with blowing motors, then you could have a case.

I think it was Lenny who figured out the percentage of blown motors and ita only a fraction of a percent. Mazda doesnt give a fuck.

Im sorry but this thread is wishful thining at best. I would call it stupid and pointless. Stop crying and either buy a different car or dont mod.

/thread

[Silver Ecstasy]

Theres always one in the group..

[Frosty]

Being in the legal field and dealing with mass tort litigation, you have an uphill battle. You are the one that has to prove that a component or product is defective before any legal action should be considered. You have to get experts (not mechanics, but engineers) to state under oath that a product is defective and that they are deemed unsafe for the public. From there, you can start getting owner testimony's, depositions, and mechanic records from dealerships stating that the product you purchased is shit.

A smoking gun of a case would be something similar the old firestone tire recall that was done with the ford explorers. Keep in mind that in this example, people died, were injured, and the cost of doing a recall was cheaper for ford and firestone than having to settle possibly millions of personal injury claims. Even then, firestone nearly went bankrupt in replacing these tires.

Anything is possible legally given the right evidence and an attorney who will represent everyone. Just keep in mind that these things take years to resolve. By then, mazda will have moved on.

[Blackspeed]

Originally Posted by Silver Ecstasy Theres always one in the group..

You do realize that YOU are the minority, not me. I'm not trying to be a dick with this next statement: How many COMPLETELY STOCK motors have blown up? Why would mazda spend money to research something that you cant even replicate? Every point you tried to make is moot, and you just look silly if you continue. I dont even want to argue anymore, because like i said, this has already been brought up.

[Silver Ecstasy]

How am I the minority? When people are gettin their turbos replaced under warranty, along with Mazda researching a PCV fix..

All i'm saying is, Mazda needs to speak up on this otherwise a CAL would force better action.

[E4Performance]

actually recalls are performed when the expected # of lawsuits by the injured people from the "car problem" outweighs the cost of pulling everyone in and "fixing" their cars for free.




Just FYI: Recalls are performed for safty reasons only. Anything else will just be a tsb.

[Target:STi]

dont let the naysayers get you down man. if you have the motivation then follow through. hell you could start with a simple letter to mazda na asking them about the pcv fix, and telling them that, as an owner you are concerned with the reliabilty and longevity of your vehicle. you've heard from a growing number of sources that there are some issues with the oiling and pcv systems in these engines that may effect proper operation and possibly cause turbo failure and/or catastrophic engine damage. ask them if they are investigating this, and if you should infact be concerned. and if so, what are some steps you as an owner can take to prevent any issues.

there you go, copy, paste, change it to first person, send it. let me know what they say.

[rodrigo]

actually recalls are performed when the expected # of lawsuits by the injured people from the "car problem" outweighs the cost of pulling everyone in and "fixing" their cars for free.

Originally Posted by E4Performance Just FYI: Recalls are performed for safty reasons only. Anything else will just be a tsb.

[MZRDISI4]

Also emissions too.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by Silver Ecstasy people are gettin their turbos replaced under warranty, along with Mazda researching a PCV fix..

They are getting replaced under warranty, and Mazda is researching a POSSIBLE PCV fix.

People blow because of MODS... plain and simple. Even Mazda acknowledged this by pulling their own CAI off the market, and re-released it. The problem is the mods affecting the engine. and as stated before, Mazda doesn't care, and I can't blame them. If your car pops and you truly are stock then you will get warranty. If your modded and you pop you are on your own. Don't blame Mazda when you know damn well that mods will void your warranty.

[BoostIsBetter]

Post a link of at least 3 stock vehicles that blew up on here. I searched all three forums and didn't find a single CX7 or MS6. Find one MS3, but it had a MSCAI.


sorry, we're shit out of luck here. Stock car is fine.

[Silver Ecstasy]

All of a sudden everyone has a conscience lol... Too funny.

I'm not defending those who have modded and blown. I am pointing the finger at the flawed package as a whole.

[rodrigo]

your argument is flawed, how can u sue a company for blowing up your modded motor when modding it voids a warranty.

we all made the choice , time to be a man/woman and live with it. or..... stay stock and enjoy the car and accept it will never get any faster.

[MSMS3]

Class Action scenario: Suit gets filed. Wait five years for the lawyers to run up a huge bill. Then you get a notice of the settlement. Mazda wants to pay the lawyers off and throw us a little bone. Court finally approves settlement after lawyers run up even more bills.

Class Action outcome: Typically you get a coupon good for some accessory you really don't want, or a check for $10 or so, and the lawyers get millions for running up all that huge bill. By then the problem we sued over has long since ceased to be relevant and models have changed many times.

I don't have the time to wait or the desire to put almost all of the money in the back pocket of some group of ambulance chasers that don't care about us or Mazda.

Besides, whether we mod these cars or not, this is a high performance limted edition car. The typical purchaser is a 20 something guy (I'm a 59 year old auto enthusiast with a realistic view of how the world works). The jury is not going to think purchasers and users of these cars are saintly little ole grandmas just driving to the grocery store and back.

Just one opinion.

[lidokrantz]

[QUOTE=Lenny127;our argument is flawed, how can u sue a company for blowing up your modded motor when modding it voids a warranty.
we all made the choice , time to be a man/woman and live with it. or..... stay stock and enjoy the car and accept it will never get any faster


the TRUTH!!! I would love nothing better than to mod the shit out of this car, but in reality it just is not worth it..YET....maybe someday when the "FIX" has been figured out why things get out of balance or a parameter in the tune changes when moded ?????....
I also have been monitoring the forums for 3 years, talked to 3 different Mazda dealerships about the turbo issue as well as the engine issues......indeed, the dealerships did acknowledge that there was an issue with "SOME" of the turbo's smoking especailly on Speed6's that were sitting on dealers lots to long and some of the Speed3's...ALL mentioned that the turbo's were totally under warranty and do not worry if a issue comes up...All 3 mentioned that stock cars were NOT blowing....but there have been a couple instances where stock vehicles have has issues from possible driver error.....like taking the past redline to often, and moded cars seem to be the ones with issues....and my dealer mentioned that Mazda was aware of moded engined popping and HIGHLY suggested i do not run more boost than stock and was totally against aftermarket BOV...before i went back to stock the BOV for some reason had him more concerned than my TBE...now stock i have no worries...but like Lenny mentioned...you have to be OK with stock speed...and after driving my CRV and my wife's Fit the Speed3 alway's feels fast enough...
Lastly, i am all for CAL but this will ONLY fly if stock cars are grenading....

[tunersteve]

Unfortunately, we're dealing with the bitch of a warranty whore that is MNAO. Personally, they've become the worst company to deal with warranty claims of anyone out there. Mitsu was bad, Nissan was bad, and now Mazda is up there for being sad.

I think Mike has a novel idea. At least gathering info across the forums is a start. From there, talking with a lawyer and presenting a possible case and getting some 'expert' advice.

As far as mods go, even if a blown motor that was modded goes into the dealer and appears stock, doesn't the burden of proof fall back on MNAO to prove that the motor was altered? In that case, several more people would be credible in a possible case.

The MSCAI for the MS3 and MS6 was pulled and re-released with no major changes other than the air straightener for MS3. Their parts are designed to help bridge the gap for buyers who want more power and care about a warranty. I think most people would rather pay a few extra bucks and get that peace of mind with the warranty that they bought the car with.

All in all, I'm disappointed with Mazda's progress on a solution for the 'issues' with the car. We all know there's an issue with the turbo and causing smoke. Whether it be the PCV and/or the turbo itself, the community as a whole needs a solution. They released a product and found later that parts were inferior. This is where they need to step up and fix it.

As I've mentioned in other threads, they've released info on the 5w-40 oil change to be a band-aid for the smoke. Why are they not allowing second oil changes on Mazda's dime, yet they'll foot the bill for a turbo replacement to keep the customer happy? How does a company justify a $75 fix by doing a $1300 one?

[jahman]

I dont think anyone is debating the fact that modding this car makes it blow. But just adding an intake or light shit like that shouldnt make it blow. You cant tell me that the measly 15hp extra we make from an intake should blow an engine up. If you're fully bolted or something like that then yeah, you're taking a risk.

Fact is there IS a FLAW in this engine. Theres no question about it. I dont give a shit if the car is stock or not when it blows, sometimes I dont think the mods on the car really have anything to do with it. I think it would have blown stock because of the FLAW. The OP even says his mazda friend talked about this and confirmed it. WHy the fuck should we drive around the cars we paid big money for (its big money for me, not everyone buys this car with the extra change in their back pocket like a lot of you guys do) a car with a FLAW in the engine that makes it a ticking time bomb.

Also, if people got warranty work, then as far as mazda knows that car was stock. I dont care if it was stock when it blew or not. As far as mazda knows it was STOCK or they wouldnt of granted warranty. They'd have a hard time proving otherwise.

But I think a LOT of work needs to be done yet before action can be taken. I kind of like the letter idea, even though it'd probably be ignored, or you'd get a bullshit response. At least its something to try to see if we can get an answer.

[Target:STi]

Originally Posted by jahman I dont think anyone is debating the fact that modding this car makes it blow. But just adding an intake or light shit like that shouldnt make it blow. You cant tell me that the measly 15hp extra we make from an intake should blow an engine up. If you're fully bolted or something like that then yeah, you're taking a risk.

this is true. if the engine can let go when its just a little bit out of spec (ie cai or bov) then i would guess that the car stock is already walking the razors edge. and people can honestly say that it WILL blow with a CAI but it WONT blow stock? i find that hard to believe.

[tunersteve]

Jahman, I totally agree with you. I have spoken to the same tech that the OP is talking about, as well as my local techs and SM. If you remember, I was the one who initially broke the news about the smoking turbo fix and have had as much up to date info in that thread that I could.

There's no reason why we're paying for a vehicle that isn't built/designed properly. If you recall, GT-R owners banded together and fought Nissan for all of their launch control/transmission issues and those cars were known to be abused. I'd say if you're looking for something similar to our situation, that's a good one to reference.

[AFcadet]

I really dont think the problems have anything to do with power/mods.

Some people will pop with just intake...others have GT30 turbo with stock internals and are running strong at mid/high 300 whp.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by jahman I dont think anyone is debating the fact that modding this car makes it blow. But just adding an intake or light shit like that shouldnt make it blow. You cant tell me that the measly 15hp extra we make from an intake should blow an engine up. If you're fully bolted or something like that then yeah, you're taking a risk. Fact is there IS a FLAW in this engine. Theres no question about it. I dont give a shit if the car is stock or not when it blows, sometimes I dont think the mods on the car really have anything to do with it. I think it would have blown stock because of the FLAW. The OP even says his mazda friend talked about this and confirmed it. WHy the fuck should we drive around the cars we paid big money for (its big money for me, not everyone buys this car with the extra change in their back pocket like a lot of you guys do) a car with a FLAW in the engine that makes it a ticking time bomb. Also, if people got warranty work, then as far as mazda knows that car was stock. I dont care if it was stock when it blew or not. As far as mazda knows it was STOCK or they wouldnt of granted warranty. They'd have a hard time proving otherwise. But I think a LOT of work needs to be done yet before action can be taken. I kind of like the letter idea, even though it'd probably be ignored, or you'd get a bullshit response. At least its something to try to see if we can get an answer.

The "Flaw" only rears its ugly head when the car is modded. By your logic if I could get 700ph out of this car and crack the block, that would be a "Flaw". There is no mass "Flaw" in this car. It runs perfect with in factory parameters in stick trim.

The only reason people are getting all uppity, is because Mazda didn't give us much to work with and they can't make 500hp stock. They times of 600hp supras/skylines on stock parts has passed.

Manufacturing processes have become more refined in the past decade. Manufactures can build a car with tighter tolerances closer to the yield of the material they are using. To put it bluntly, there's little room without upgrading components.

[GoSpeed3Go]

OP thanks for starting another garbage thread, every fucking week some stupid shit like this gets started it seems. fuck im ready to get rid of this car just so i dont have to visit a forum full of FML threads.