Uh oh i make boom boom

[Decepticon]

okay...from what i've read from all the engine blown threads, running meth is about the only way to prevent blown engines...but there are really no hard facts as to the reason why people are blowing up...i know in general...like Haltech mentioned...long term denotation or knock can lead to this problem...now, stock cars are also known to knock..but i want to know is why, or when does it knock...i know from all the threads i've read bout this issue almost all of the people who have blown up were cruising at partial throttle between 3k-4k rpm or shifting between these two points...i know some people have ruled out this theory but i think, since this seems to be the common factor of all the incidents reported, someone should find out what is going on when driving like this...maybe shifting between these two points at partial throttle leads to knock (just a theory)...for those with a dash hawk or any other logging device (cuz i don't have one yet)...can you data log normal driving at partial throttle and shifting between 3k-4k rpm.and compare it to shifting below 3k and shifting above 4k at partial throttle...i know some people may not like the idea of blowing engines due to continously shifting at a danger zone but i figured, you can't really rule anything out until you have actually proven it.

[Ghost Rider]

i am really curious as to the whole euro/aussie/jdm failure rate too. I wonder how they correspond. I would also like to see a ratio of blown disi mzr's to the amount of cars sold with it.

next thing to look at is the region the blown cars appear in. is there a correlation between region and blown engines? Factors such as gas quality and ethanol content might come up

[badams118]

Originally Posted by Haltech the famous PTP plug nozzle failed me.

What PTP plug nozzle?

[MTuning]

its a freeze plug to replace the stock one on the IM for WI. it's not the motor, its the tune and closed loop. its short of being OTS maps on the AP. once we can disable closed loop we're golden. this thing runs too lean in boost/short of WOT. even at transition i'm not sure i like where AFR is at + the addition of knock, boom.

Originally Posted by Doc Ive said it before.. as soon as we see boost it goes into open loop...

[Jarods7920]

Funny thing is about all this is meth was on my list of things to buy after i was able to tune the car. Now it seems i should have just bought it anyway. I was afraid it would make the car run way to rich and there would be little to no gain from it. How i was proved wrong.

I agree with it being an issue with detonation. But the problem is is that stock cars do the same thing. So it makes me wonder what the issue is with tuning in general on this car. I mean at WOT it only shows i am at 13 degrees timing and knock when i monitored it through data logs would never rise above .8. The one time about 2 months ago i saw 3-5 degrees knock you could feel the timing being pulled to next to nothing, at which point i imeadiatly got out of it. I wonder if this single event caused the begining of the problem. I know with my race car when it detonates its very audible. Yet another reason this really disturbs me.

[YammerR1]

Originally Posted by DaleNixon Anyone want to look into importing an Australian ECU?

or how about they post up some of their data logs if someone down there has a dashhawk? Curious to see what the Aus stock tune performs like and if they get any part throttle KR readings.

[lidokrantz]

that's because stockers are not blowing...

[Jarods7920]

Originally Posted by lidokrantz that's because stockers are not blowing...

Thats not true. Stock cars have blow up too.

[Crossbow]

Hal,

Couldn't you just run more water/meth mix? I'm actually looking into myself...just sticking with a primary WI (water) system, with just a bit of meth added in.

[MTuning]

how do you know MI/WI isn't just a band-aid?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Haltech Well, i have run some pretty hot maps while developing MSF maps.. 100's infact... ive had not one issue. I have straight whored this fuckin car... so.. ive easily placed 14,000 of hard AP mapping miles to this car and no blown engine. The one thing i do different is i dont go smacking WOT with a fresh map.. i drive the car 60 miles normally, little to no boost and act like a senior citizen.. after that, i begin short WOT blasts logging AFR, knock, timing, BAT, and IAT... i study these and compare them to my other data.. i slowly get the map acquainted to the car, then beat the shit out of it. Ive had my meth disconnected since October ( scared meth tank/odors were affecting my child ) and was set to put it back into action 11 days ago until the famous PTP plug nozzle failed me. Anyhow, if the map is safe, the car will be safe.. Just dont go out and beat the shit out of it once you are done flashing it. Check your PID's guys.

Hey Hal, do you still have your balance shaft in the car?

[bova]

but if you aren't knocking at WOT with your map how else can meth help you? because meth is not sprayed while cruising, unless you are saying that the damage is done at WOT, but I guess i'm fine since i never see more than .35 KR at WOT. Although I'll still be putting meth/water on shortly whenever PTP comes back from his hiatus.

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by bova80 but if you aren't knocking at WOT with your map how else can meth help you? because meth is not sprayed while cruising, unless you are saying that the damage is done at WOT, but I guess i'm fine since i never see more than .35 KR at WOT. Although I'll still be putting meth/water on shortly whenever PTP comes back from his hiatus.

Knock at WOT is what causes the damage. This KR everyone sees at part throttle is nothing. I've yet to see a case of audible knock at part throttle.

[lidokrantz]

Originally Posted by Jarods7920 Thats not true. Stock cars have blow up too.

not trying to be negative or an ass, but i REALLY feel bad for you and ALL who have had this issue...and indeed i do believe Haltech hit it on the head with what to do when changing maps on the AP....but following closely for 2 years now the cars that have ben popping i have only run into 1 stocker that had a issue, everyone else has had mods and 95% seem to have a tune of some sort....maybe there is more stockers with a issue, but i am un-aware of it..This is is BS IMO, but how the fuck do cat's like Haltech, Laloosh,. Woosh, amd many others have high power #s, hit there cars hard, and never had an issue with the engine???? I no plenty of guy's running a little extra hp/tq fully bolted without meth that are still pumping well. As Mouse mentioned this issue SUCKS...and every fucking day i read about engine failures makes me want to throw in the towel...but i won't yet....it makes sense to me to drive in balance till things are figured out....but that 300=430bhp car stock gets better and better looking all the time...except for the financial outlay.

[demonspeed]

A couple things to note, as I have a dashhawk and do the same drive every single night when I get off work:

1) Its not 100% consistent, but about 70% of the time I only start registering part throttle KR once my coolate hits 160 degrees F. Once the coolant goes over 175 or so (operating temp 180), it goes away for the most part.

2) I get about 2.5 degrees KR WOT 5th gear about half the time (upper RPM ranges, 4k +), and never have I registered KR in WOT 1-4th, at least that Ive seen.

3) This goes for everyone, NEVER EVER boost your car before it hits op. temp. EVER. We all knew that though, right?

Im wondering if all these part throttle blown engines are caused from rolling into boost when the ECU is registering KR. A sudden transition into positive pressure during a part throttle knock event would/could cause some damage, and its for this that I have a 3 stage alarm set on my DH for KR.

[Haltech]

[QUOTE=Crossbow;190546]Hal,

I dont run a 50/50 mix but it still has an odor. I just wanted to make sure all was well before i introduced it back into the car. Im moving the res to the front of the car and locating the pump to the rear. Im trying to make a vent for the tank top so i can place the tank back in the rear.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Lex Hey Hal, do you still have your balance shaft in the car?

Yes and i have no plans of removing it until i build the engine.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by MTuning how do you know MI/WI isn't just a band-aid?

Thats the point, it is a bandaid.. a long term one at that...

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by demonspeed A couple things to note, as I have a dashhawk and do the same drive every single night when I get off work: 1) Its not 100% consistent, but about 70% of the time I only start registering part throttle KR once my coolate hits 160 degrees F. Once the coolant goes over 175 or so (operating temp 180), it goes away for the most part. 2) I get about 2.5 degrees KR WOT 5th gear about half the time (upper RPM ranges, 4k +), and never have I registered KR in WOT 1-4th, at least that Ive seen. 3) This goes for everyone, NEVER EVER boost your car before it hits op. temp. EVER. We all knew that though, right? Im wondering if all these part throttle blown engines are caused from rolling into boost when the ECU is registering KR. A sudden transition into positive pressure during a part throttle knock event would/could cause some damage, and its for this that I have a 3 stage alarm set on my DH for KR.

Part throttle KR is not knock, its engine noise. I've actually held at 3k rpm at let it throw KR at part throttle and heard zero audible knock. I can, however, feel a good bit of resonance throughout the car. I've heard audible knock with KR registering as little as 4 degrees and heard nothing when seeing as much as 7 degrees at part throttle.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by bova80 but if you aren't knocking at WOT with your map how else can meth help you? because meth is not sprayed while cruising, unless you are saying that the damage is done at WOT, but I guess i'm fine since i never see more than .35 KR at WOT. Although I'll still be putting meth/water on shortly whenever PTP comes back from his hiatus.

Knocking at WOT is what does the damage. The cruising knock you see is engine noise and/or transmission noise the sensors are picking up. This is more noticeable with guys running more solid mounts in there car. The solid points are transferring this audible driveline noise to the sensors. Proof is you look at Randy's car when he got it back after it was built. The piston slap from his forged Arias were being picked up from his knock sensors.

Im thinking about disconnecting the two sensors and running some tests.

[TRU-BOOST]

Originally Posted by Haltech The one thing i do different is i dont go smacking WOT with a fresh map.. i drive the car 60 miles normally, little to no boost and act like a senior citizen.. after that, i begin short WOT blasts logging AFR, knock, timing, BAT, and IAT... i study these and compare them to my other data.. i slowly get the map acquainted to the car, then beat the shit out of it.

You sir summed up what i believe has been the secret to my success as well. I reset my ECU after EVERY mod. I dont care if it is spark plugs....reset ! Then i drive it very mellow for a while gradually giving it a little more abuse. I usually try to get a good 100 miles of city driving (helps set fuel trims faster than just cruising on the eway) then i beat the piss out of it ! I beat the bitch but she keeps comming back asking for more !! So now i'm gonna shove laughing gas down her throat !

[Deadman]

could not agree more. More of the method i use as well.

[SpdFreak]

Originally Posted by TRU-BOOST You sir summed up what i believe has been the secret to my success as well. I reset my ECU after EVERY mod. I dont care if it is spark plugs....reset ! Then i drive it very mellow for a while gradually giving it a little more abuse. I usually try to get a good 100 miles of city driving (helps set fuel trims faster than just cruising on the eway) then i beat the piss out of it ! I beat the bitch but she keeps comming back asking for more !! So now i'm gonna shove laughing gas down her throat !

Is this the secret to Woosh & Laloosh longevity of the engine?

[Haltech]

Im not saying that my engine is not on the verge of letting go... but so far, all is well. People know how much work i did with creating maps, then you got a whole slew of others who also tested maps who haven't seemed to drop their engines.

Unlike other cars out there that can take it when you beat the shit out of them the second a mod is bolted on or a tune, these cars are much more sensitive to learning the new parameters before you can have your way with them.

This was evident when flashing maps, beating the shit out of the car and seeing crazy knock values come up. Then all of a sudden a day or two later, the same map no longer knocks. If you hit 12.5 AFR on most cars with no exhaust mods done, you are going to knock, as we saw in Lenny's car. Heat plays a rather destructive roll in this whole process as well, which methanol can control for you.

Methanol will prevent this knock and is a good solution for keeping your car safe. But, i still urge people to get on the car easy when you begin changing stuff. Some of the guys ive seen blow had suffered bad knock and continue to do so without changing the map, then mellowing it. After all of this abuse, they use methanol as the last resort and honestly, the damage has already been done. The ticking time bomb is now set.

i do allow the car to heat up before WOT.
i change my oil every 3K with synthetic
i check my plugs weekly and shitcan them every 9,000 miles.

[Arrowpoint]

Originally Posted by demonspeed A couple things to note, as I have a dashhawk and do the same drive every single night when I get off work: 1) Its not 100% consistent, but about 70% of the time I only start registering part throttle KR once my coolate hits 160 degrees F. Once the coolant goes over 175 or so (operating temp 180), it goes away for the most part. 2) I get about 2.5 degrees KR WOT 5th gear about half the time (upper RPM ranges, 4k +), and never have I registered KR in WOT 1-4th, at least that Ive seen. 3) This goes for everyone, NEVER EVER boost your car before it hits op. temp. EVER. We all knew that though, right? Im wondering if all these part throttle blown engines are caused from rolling into boost when the ECU is registering KR. A sudden transition into positive pressure during a part throttle knock event would/could cause some damage, and its for this that I have a 3 stage alarm set on my DH for KR.

I have observed what you describe in paragraph 1. The part knock that I see most consistantly is right before coolant temp reaches nominal temp. I have observed the KR climb as I give it more throttle and fall as I let off throttle. I would be interested in finding out how many failures occured within the first few minutes after starting.

I also drive mostly city streets, avoiding boost for the first 60+ miles after installing a new map. I gradually add boost and don't go wot untill 100 miles. I monitor KR and LTFT during this period carefully avoiding conditions that I know would induce KR. Usually after the 100 mile mark I don't see any KR above .3 in either PT or WOT. I monitor KR any time the car is running.

The problem I've been having is that after 300-400 miles on any map I've used, the KR numbers begin to climb and end up at levels I can't tolerate. I wish I could figure this out. I'm almost to the point of going back to stock.

[MarkyMark]

Where is the other knock sensor. I only know of the one on the front above the PCV.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark Where is the other knock sensor. I only know of the one on the front above the PCV.

the diagram i looked at showed two, so since ive never bothered looking for it or them, im going by illustrations. You only saw one?

[DaleNixon]

Fucking cruise KR drives me insane. I saw 6.5 on the DH today driving around with my wife. I yelled FUCKING KNOCK RETARD and let off the gas then got back to cruising speed. I registered about 5.4 for a brief moment, let out a few expletives, and the KR went away. The car was still getting up to temp. I was not boosting at all. I suppose these conditions are normal though. I'd hate to see the KR warning go off when I'm really thrashing it.

Edit: I was thinking of getting a meth kit to try to eliminate all KR, but I suppose that only helps in boost situations like Haltech said. Still, I suppose meth isn't a terrible idea.

[jwdp54]

i'll be honest i use WI as a bandaid and drive the piss out of my car. before meth i saw almost 3.5 kr during WOT but now i've never seen more than .4 and that only happened once. i figure i'd rather spend 300 on WI rather than thousands on a new block.

[senor blanco ms3]

After reading this thread, I've definitely picked up some useful tips on ways I can prevent this car from grenading. Sorry to the OP for your troubles. I went through 2 motors in my MZ3 and would hate to go through that again in my Speed.

[MTuning]

MI is definitely a plus but isn't DI suppose to keep cylinder temp down? a proper tune with closed loop disabled should take advantage of DI. we need to jump through the ECU huddle before we tackle other stuff. I've been hearing something about Open ECU?

[Doc]

Originally Posted by YammerR1 or how about they post up some of their data logs if someone down there has a dashhawk? Curious to see what the Aus stock tune performs like and if they get any part throttle KR readings.

I have seen part throttle knock 3 times since ive had the car over the last 12 months.
I have the DH set to go ape shit with anything over 1.0

I have also heard of one other ozzie complaining about seeing it once or twice too... So it is there.... just not so often

[builthatch]

Originally Posted by starlessnight could it be just a lemon? i mean cars are massed produced... a couple of them are bound to be shot.... just a thought. thats why mazda only gives warn. to 36000 ha.... btw sorry about your loss.... either way it sucks big time...

drivetrain warranty is not 36k, it's substantially longer.

you guys re: part throttle knocking....EVERY CAR ON THE ROAD will show knocking during part throttle. it's normal...hook up a DH to your grandmom's cobalt or your brother in law's freakin' IS350...it'll show knock during part throttle. All of my perfectly stand alone dynapack tuned honda engines showed knock during normal driving. the KS is nothing more than a simple microphone; they did the best they could with damping the thing properly but it's not a perfect science, so you'll see all kinds of noise at the KS, not just genuine slight knocking.

[MattMPS3]

Originally Posted by Doc I have seen part throttle knock 3 times since ive had the car over the last 12 months. I have the DH set to go ape shit with anything over 1.0 I have also heard of one other ozzie complaining about seeing it once or twice too... So it is there.... just not so often

That'd be me...I have mainly noticed it when starting off from a standstill, I have the dashhawk set to change screen colour at anything over 2.0, and to go off its tits over 6.0. From the standing start I will see the screen change colour momentarily (>2.0), I have also noticed it when cruising i.e 60-70 kph (~35-40 mph) in third and accelerate gently.
I believe most of the above circumstances are just the sensor picking up on engine vibrations etc as discussed.

I have once made the Dashhawk go into the warning mode (>6.0), and noticably pull timing, but I believe that was a batch of bad fuel, and boosting up in a higher gear.

I have been keeping a closer eye on the KR today, and the standing start & cruising warnings the dashhawk was registering a 2.1, when going into WOT it the most I read was a 0.7, at a guess this was around the infamous open / closed loop transition. I am also going to fit some colder plugs and see if that makes any difference.

[DaleNixon]

Colder plugs and an upgraded TMIC eliminated my knock. Then I had to disconnect the ECU for a transmission mount install and it's all back. I'm seeing values I've never seen before though. Maybe I can chalk it up to added vibes from the mount.

[LBV]

Originally Posted by lidokrantz how the fuck do cat's like Haltech, Laloosh,. Woosh, amd many others have high power #s, hit there cars hard, and never had an issue with the engine????

I know laloosh did but I'm not sure of the other 2, but you've got to get yourself a warning gauge (either the dashhawk or the aeroforce) that can warn on knock retard.

I've been saying this since these gauges came out with the ability to capture knock retard and I'll say it 'til I'm blue in the face, but you NEED to get yourself a warning for knock retard with these engines. I set mine at 2 because by the time the lights flash at me and I let off it can be up to 4.

Mazda tuned these engines pretty extreme right from the factory and excessive cylinder heat is the enemy - push the limits more and you get more heat - you get more heat and you get more knock.

You can try and tune some of the excess heat out by adjusting AFR and timing (and colder plugs) to a certain extent but above that you'll need an H2O/meth kit.

[DaleNixon]

I let the car warm up for about 5 minutes before heading out this morning and I saw 0 KR during my morning commute.

[bova]

i hardly ever see knock but i will say my fmic rattles a little bit off something and that seems to cause partial throttle knock so i'll be adjusting some things and trying to eliminate that rattle and see how that helps.

[I<3Groceries]

I've never noted severe WOT KR, but partial throttle KR is an intermittent demon on my car.
I have noticed a direct correlation between PT KR and the gas I've put in the car. Some tanks it will be a big problem, others I'll never see any KR register, ever.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by DaleNixon Colder plugs and an upgraded TMIC eliminated my knock. Then I had to disconnect the ECU for a transmission mount install and it's all back. I'm seeing values I've never seen before though. Maybe I can chalk it up to added vibes from the mount.

You will get some KR right after an ECU reset. Let the car re-adapt and take it easy for a little while.