We're getting somewhere ...

[wakeboarddude]

[QUOTE=jwdp54;321342]no haters, i've been around longer than you.QUOTE]

Lol so since you registered here a whole 2 months before me you've seen everything? lol what college do you go to again?

We just need to appriciate the fact people are taking the time to come up with ideas of whats going on with this situation. Ya i understand engines blow up and shit but hey if someone wants to figure out the exact reason, dont bash them. It just out of respect! Shit it could benifit everyone one day, you never no!

[jwdp54]

Originally Posted by NRSpeed Shit happens, but you know what, if Lex finds a possible weak link in the engine that is possibly fixable, why not support his digging?

you realize with this comment every single one of us are taking a risk. he's basically saying the way the fuel is being sprayed we all most likely will have a blown motor.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Lenny127 we can keep searching for the whys but seems to me it is rather obvious that making 350bhp+ in this engine with stock internals increases the odds of you having it let go on you.... what percentage?? who the fuck knows.

if you can find 1 engine that blew that was making anywhere NEAR 350whp i would be shocked. you act like any of these people who blew were barely touching 320 on a high reading dyno. its not power dude. people keep forgetting that this isent a power issue. its a design flaw that can take a life at any power level.


i also agree that taking lex's idea as the end all be all of this motor is not right and people shoudlent be scared. this is all for the good and the bandwagon should only be used for brainstorming and coming up with more evidence to help lex's theory. hes a smart ass dude and deserves credit where its due.

[jwdp54]

[quote=wakeboarddude;321372]

Originally Posted by jwdp54 no haters, i've been around longer than you.QUOTE] Lol so since you registered here a whole 2 months before me you've seen everything? lol what college do you go to again? We just need to appriciate the fact people are taking the time to come up with ideas of whats going on with this situation. Ya i understand engines blow up and shit but hey if someone wants to figure out the exact reason, dont bash them. It just out of respect! Shit it could benifit everyone one day, you never no!

dude your in high school get over yourself.
i go to arizona state and i'm not studying in engineering but i know when to give up on something that hasn't been figured out for four yrs. this motor was designed by idiots.

unless your willing to invest some serious cash just to achieve 400whp, you still won't. not saying in the future there won't be a break through but look at the cobalts. there stuck also

[rodrigo]

re read son, i said 350bhp

B R A K E H O R S E P O W E R


and EVERYTHING failure related is from added power. i cant guess who got the shitty set of rods from mazda nor can u....but when u add power it finds the weakest point always.

and if u disagree about it being a power issue do a head count of how many modded ms3 s vs stock one have blown up and ill bet u 100 bucks that stockers arent as high #s of casualties as the modded counterparts.... now what would this infer????

Originally Posted by superskaterxes if you can find 1 engine that blew that was making anywhere NEAR 350whp i would be shocked. you act like any of these people who blew were barely touching 320 on a high reading dyno. its not power dude. people keep forgetting that this isent a power issue. its a design flaw that can take a life at any power level. i also agree that taking lex's idea as the end all be all of this motor is not right and people shoudlent be scared. this is all for the good and the bandwagon should only be used for brainstorming and coming up with more evidence to help lex's theory. hes a smart ass dude and deserves credit where its due.

[NRSpeed]

Originally Posted by wakeboarddude dude your in high school get over yourself. i go to arizona state and i'm not studying in engineering but i know when to give up on something that hasn't been figured out for four yrs. this motor was designed by idiots.

So, are you saying we should give up and go buy a 135i?

[wakeboarddude]

Originally Posted by jwdp54 dude your in high school get over yourself. i go to arizona state and i'm not studying in engineering but i know when to give up on something that hasn't been figured out for four yrs. this motor was designed by idiots. unless your willing to invest some serious cash just to achieve 400whp, you still won't. not saying in the future there won't be a break through but look at the cobalts. there stuck also

Lol good try but im a senior in college! If your not happy with the car then stop bitchin! Dont come in hear and ruin someones research and theories by basically saying they are retarded for starting in the first place!

[Darksun280]

This thread is starting to suck.



*Unsubscribe*

[trickytwelveinch]

What haters? I ain't hating on LEX nor am I trying to discourage him, lol, for what he is trying to do but I personally think it's futile because it ain't going to go nowhere. You guys will still be in the same threads, making the same threads months from now.

Let me point something out: few months back there was this "theory" that it was the BS! After, and JUST after ONE engine blew without the BS everyone jumped on the bandwagon and disproved that theory.

LEX posted a picture of the pistons oil seals. Let say one engine blew because of the oil seals around the piston... suddenly it's magically agreed upon with 95% of people that, that is the cause for all the engines blowing.

I mean come on guys how many people slapped on a SRI in ended up getting an engine code for miss-fire? How do you screw up a SRI install?

Like Lenny said:

"truth of the matter is that you guys chasing big horsepower are doing it wrong.....you build from the GROUND UP!!!! not the other way around...... shortblock is the fucken skeleton of the engine without it being stout all u r doing is spinning the wheel of fortune..... so spin away..or do thing s right."

Why is it hard to understand that when you slap on nothing but bolt ons you run into the risk of blowing your engine; not just this engine but any engine for that matter. There's a guy in import tuner magazine, forgot his name, but he went through 4 engines on his WRX before he got to where he wanted.

Did you see any paranoia forming around the WRX crowd about the WRX engine being week because the guy went through 4 engines?

Lex is trying to find out why these engines blow when modded? Someone said that- uhh- are you serious? It blows because it's modded. When it's modded it's operating beyond it's tolerances. How is that hard to believe for some? Most of these engines blow more due to the fact that their not being operated beyond their tolerances but because the damage was done already by the end user.

[Lex]

I really wish this wouldn't turn into a bitching fest. I apologize to those I offended, I didn't mean to upset you. I simply showed the fact that the oil control rings have failed on a working motor. I have also shown that our fuel injection system impinges fuel on the cylinder wall and cools the piston unevenly. None of these are issues seen on a regular port injection engine or well designed diesel.

These are all possible sources of failure. There are many others and you all know these motors knock and are temperamental in ways PI engines we're used to are not.

On the one hand I read complaints asking why does this motor blow etc etc. I am pointing out flaws I and others have seen and that I am sure all of you can agree are there. Does it take out 100% of motors? Probably not. Does it add to the potential of motor failure? Probably yes.

I too am disappointed by some of the inadequacies of this first gen DI system and I too bought the brand new car (for 37k including taxes none the less here in Canada) so I have every right to be butt hurt about it but I try to find things out instead of digging my head in the sand.

So please don't be offended and let's keep this on track.

Attached is an image showing the fuel pattern as it is sprayed on the piston crown.

[rodrigo]

forgive my ignorance on this but draw up a picture of where the injector would be pointing on this particular piston , i see the bigger valve reliefs on top of pic and the smaller ones on the bottom...never seen this motor apart and would like to see if what I am thinking about this picture is correct.

[Lex]

The injector sits between the two intake valves where on the piston you see the 2 valve reliefs. The spray pattern appears like a triangle starting between the two valve reliefs and fanning out towards the exhaust side.

This piston was covered in carbon initially and this is what brake cleaner could remove.

Originally Posted by Lenny127 forgive my ignorance on this but draw up a picture of where the injector would be pointing on this particular piston , i see the bigger valve reliefs on top of pic and the smaller ones on the bottom...never seen this motor apart and would like to see if what I am thinking about this picture is correct.

[rodrigo]

would u have a non cleaned piston pic handy??

i rather not assume at what I am looking at was caused by the engine running vs the brake cleaner

thanks


also.... some 360 degree side pics of the same piston would be nice to see how the ringlands vary in discoloration from the fueled side to the non fueled side of the piston

Originally Posted by Lex The injector sits between the two intake valves where on the piston you see the 2 valve reliefs. The spray pattern appears like a triangle starting between the two valve reliefs and fanning out towards the exhaust side. This piston was covered in carbon initially and this is what brake cleaner could remove.

[Lex]

They look like this:

Originally Posted by Lenny127 would u have a non cleaned piston pic handy?? i rather not assume at what I am looking at was caused by the engine running vs the brake cleaner thanks

[madvillain]

Originally Posted by Lex I really wish this wouldn't turn into a bitching fest.

My aim was to retrieve the wambulance, pick up everyone who was crying about this thread, and haul them far far away. I did not exceed.

[rodrigo]

if u do get a chance to do some all around side shots of the pistons perhaps this would strengthen your theory, because fuel washing down the cylinder wall should not be happening on the side the injector is spraying away from.... and the ringlands in term would HAVE to look different , if your theory is correct.

Originally Posted by Lex They look like this:

[MATT DAMOND]

Here lanny:

With injector + spray, painted:

[jwdp54]

i'll throw my .02 once again, in the post above is the reason i got pissed in the first place.

i'm not putting anyone down but he's bringing info in without having the actual problem in his hand. he's posting off of pictures and trying to diagnosis the problem with his theory.

if you had an actual motor in hand that one of us gave you that had blown i would read these threads with a better understanding.

[rodrigo]

i got it matt ty... should be more at the 1130 o clock position though lol

[MATT DAMOND]

Originally Posted by Lenny127 i got it matt ty... should be more at the 1130 o clock position though lol

Yeah oops

[clos561]

was that injector spraying onto that cylinder from the bottom up? i see that the top has more discoloration which could be from heat

- edit - i fail, i missed that totally

[rodrigo]

---

Important Moderator/Administrator Notes Below stay on topic

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Lenny127 if u do get a chance to do some all around side shots of the pistons perhaps this would strengthen your theory, because fuel washing down the cylinder wall should not be happening on the side the injector is spraying away from.... and the ringlands in term would HAVE to look different , if your theory is correct.

Picture 1 shows the intake side of the piston. Notice less carbon buildup (behind the injector). This is how it should all look.

Picture 2 shows the opposite side - the exhaust side, against which wall the injector fires. The exhaust side of the same piston is also shown in the first post in this thread.

Notice the buildup on the ringlands and inside the ring groove. That carbon is caked on there good. Brake clean will not remove it easily if at all.

[danesti]

sorry lenny..
here is a gift for you (better than hnda etr`s)



seriously though... thank you for your time Lex. right or wrong your putting in an effort and this is the one that makes the most sense for far.
lets get some preventative maintenance figured out for this bee-otch

[rodrigo]

and again, I am not interrogating you , just asking so I can come to my own non biased opinions......both of these shots were taken in the pistons "virgin" state or after a cleanup?

reason why I ask..and I am not insinuating anything.... is that one person can clean parts and unwillingly (or willingly) erase vital information about how the engine was running.... i always rather see engine parts in its natural form , dirty, full of w/e came out of the motor.

[Lex]

The crowns were wiped down with brake clean using a rag. No scraping was done what so ever. The ringlands are uncleaned. These are all pictures of the same piston.

[clos561]

could this some how be realted to how people are breaking in their cars?

6th paragraph after the illustration ( i googled this because i remembered reading something about running the engine hard would cause a better seal with the piston)

talks about excessive oil consumption, i wonder what car does that?

New Engine Break-in Procedure

[slo4now]

Dont know what to say after reading these 4 pages but here it goes, my theory is
obviously heat,octane and oil dilution is all i ever here that might help this issue.
I have fixed these 3 issues for over 25,000+ miles, if you have a fmic get rid of the
factory pos electric fan that can barely throw enough air on the manifold itself, i
have a 18" electric fan on a switch which is taller than the radiator itself(overkill i say)
remove the thermostat and control the temp using the fan switch around 180 deg is
perfect for this car and run higher octane remember we are pushing 15lbs all the time.
I run 100 octane 24/7 with TORCO RACE FUEL ADDITIVE for over 25,000 miles.
And change your oil every 2500-3000 miles no more with a good syn oil.
Full boltons,no cats and spike like a mofo. And drive fully wot or in vacuum
the whole time, learned that from Laloosh. My car does not know what knock is.

[rodrigo]

thanks lex. well......... its obvious that the piston doesnt have a "balanced" performance when it comes to lubrication.

now, it would be helpful determining if indeed this was a seizure (looks like it) and the rod having no place to go up breaks and shoots out the side.

would u guys be able to determine if this piston seizure happened on an upstroke? by looking at the scoring marks they should hint as to which direction this happened in

I mean there are so many things you can look at , from how the rod bent/broke to which direction the hole in the block was in to tell you crucial info that leads to the point of origin of failure.

you basically have all the info in front of you to "reverse engineer" the incident.

[slo4now]

The first 20 miles are the most important on a new car nowadays in order to seat the
rings properly, maybe not on a new engine build but factory engines today need to be
broken in semi hard. After the first 20 miles it dont matter what you do they have all ready been seated.
Very bad design from Mazda to put the injector where it is spraying the wall.
Hopefully with my added safety features and maintenance my shit will last.

[itzl0l]

do you know what oil was used in this motor?

I dont usually even think about oil additives, but i wonder if using an additive with zinc may help, obvisouly it wouldnt fix the problem but could reduce friction in high stress areas.....maybe keep the piston from seizing

most oils used to have zinc, but over the past few years they have been cutting back....

http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_0...ive/index.html

[wakeboarddude]

So would you say using a good 10W-30 oil would help?

[Speedn3]

damn...every senior member on this board is reading or have read this thread except aaron.
where the hell is he...in his garage demodding? lol

[RayRayBauder]

Originally Posted by jwdp54 you realize with this comment every single one of us are taking a risk. he's basically saying the way the fuel is being sprayed we all most likely will have a blown motor.

i realize this. but i also realize that if this theory is false(not saying this is the case) we will have a better understanding of the car in the end and maybe be able to find the cause of our motors failing that may be able to be fixed (once again, not saying Lex's theory is neither correct or incorrect)

Thank you Lex for all your work. i'm glad to see some one put this much effort into this.

[FearUndersteer]

I really like all the theories here but I only see one way to get a definitive answer we are all looking for.

Could the club look into hiring a licensed Profession Engineer with experience analyzing the cause of engine failures. This way we could have conclusive results backed up with real analysis. Maybe even make the project part of a professors 'summer research' and get it done for a lot less.

Matt-

[BoostIsBetter]

Originally Posted by FearUndersteer I really like all the theories here but I only see one way to get a definitive answer we are all looking for. Could the club look into hiring a licensed Profession Engineer with experience analyzing the cause of engine failures. This way we could have conclusive results backed up with real analysis. Maybe even make the project part of a professors 'summer research' and get it done for a lot less. Matt-

sounds like a great idea. i'd donate to that. if i was still in undergrad, that'd be great, but no time for research with med school.

hey guys, at the very least, lets say the theory is bunk, we're getting closer in the end. I like the theory. Can we compare this to other DI cars in other threads? I don't have access to many, but see what you all can dig up from their pictures of engines taken apart, blown, rebuilt, and all that. or better yet, ask around in the other forums if ppl can put pictures up. in general, people are dicks behind their computer desks, but overall, everyone is willing to help a fellow car enthusiast.

[kgb]

Originally Posted by wakeboarddude So would you say using a good 10W-30 oil would help?

FWIW....

I started using 10w-30 Amsoil for my last oil change. My following logic is/was probably inaccurate but I used the thicker oil mainly to help with the smoking turbo problem....

Also, because I live in Tampa and since my car stopped burning oil after 5 minutes, I decided that the 10w part, being thicker, might help with limiting the smoke during the first 5 minutes, in addition since the temps. here are pretty warm, even during the morning, that it wouldn't be too thick and possibly harm the engine. I am ordering more oil tomorrow and planned on going back to 5w - 30 because the PTP fix, although loose, seems to be working. But with all this info...hell, I just need more info.

[flyrevs2]

LEX rules ! Thanks man for all your effort, it makes a lot of sense and I'm pretty sure most of us appreciate it. Keep on going and forget about the haters who can't seem to keep their mouths shut .

[Thestaplegunkid]

Well Lex, here's the shot you asked for. I had no carbon build up in my oil ring. There is what looks like some washing down of fuel on the side of the piston (browned area). This is the exhaust side of the piston, which the injector sprays against. Also, some pronounced scuffing of the coating on the piston skirt. This was most evident on this piston, which showed the most browning.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Thestaplegunkid Well Lex, here's the shot you asked for. I had no carbon build up in my oil ring. There is what looks like some washing down of fuel on the side of the piston (browned area). This is the exhaust side of the piston, which the injector sprays against. Also, some pronounced scuffing of the coating on the piston skirt. This was most evident on this piston, which showed the most browning.

Thanks for the picture. That looks a lot cleaner. He used synthetic in the engine so that's a clear winner in terms of oil to use.

2 questions:

1. On the top compression ring, are those detonation marks or nicks that were put in there from debris and you removing it? Are those nicks present all around the piston or just on the exhaust end?

2. Is that carbon buildup on the top of the second compression ring? Any carbon on top of the first compression ring?

As always high res pics are great.