We're getting somewhere ...

[jahman]

^how did you know it was overheating? High ects/egt? Knock?

[badams118]

Dashhawk: ECT of 215+ & BAT of 155+ in traffic with 75-80 ambient temps.

Meth wasn't helping: BAT on Meth

[fhaze]

Those don't seem particularly high to me. In fact they seem normal.

Check my logs here...details in post.
Logs

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by badams118 Dashhawk: ECT of 215+ & BAT of 155+ in traffic with 75-80 ambient temps. Meth wasn't helping: BAT on Meth

There was something wrong with you motor/meth setup. I've seen meth instantly drop BATs 40 degrees in the summer.

[MATT DAMOND]

I really must thank Lex though for all of the effort he is putting in on all of his research. His findings do seem to show a problem with the DISI, and I'm sure he'll find more info if he continues to pick away at things. I don't know if Lex's theory is specifically why the DISI motors blow, but I'm sure he'll find something.


I've meet trickytwelveinch, in person before. I went to buy something he had F/S on here, and we ended up hanging out and talking for hours. He's a good smart guy, and I've talked with him on the phone recently, and he is serious on making his own thread.

Just give the guy some time to get his data together, and who knows you might be surprised by the results.






REGARDLESS THIS IS LEX'S THREAD, FUCK ALL THIS DRAMA BULLSHIT AND LET'S GET BACK ON TOPIC!

[Lex]

Alright, let's summarize here:

- The oil control rings get plugged easily on this car, especially if not using synthetic

- Thestaplegunkid blew his motor shifting part throttle after the car has been sitting for a while like a lot of motors go.

- The bore on the piston that blew indicates that the piston seized in the bore, caused the rod to twist, and all hell broke loose.

- The way the piston broke indicates that the exhaust side (washed down by fuel) ring seized and the intake sideskirt just broke off.

- This happened on a shift. It's important to realize that when shifting there is a change in moment of the piston - the momentum drops as you go up a gear and load increases on the piston. This means there is more lateral force on the piston against the wall and less momentum to carry the piston through the motion if there is a sticky point. This further supports the theory why these engines blow during shifting and not WOT at high RPMs. Even further, this is when injector pulsewidth changes quickly from a longer PW to a shorter one and again to a longer one as the clutch is put in and acceleration applied. I believe the staplegunkid's piston locked on the compression stroke with the piston moving towards TDC after the injector fired (it fires during the intake stroke).

- The engine was heatsoaked in most circumstances of blowing.

- The injectors spray at the wall of the cylinder washing down the oil film on it on the exhaust side and they leak when the car has sat for a while again washing down the walls.

- There is a large amount of soot buildup in the combustion chambers. This can affect the injector spray pattern and how much fuel it delivers and how well it is atomized. Poorly atomized fuel doesn't burn as well and is more likely to impinge on cylinder wall.

- The injector spray pattern likely cools and heats the piston unevenly across its surface.

- We know part throttle - full throttle conditions and just plain acceleration after the car sat for a while causes detonation which can further worsen this issue.

What I still need to find out:

- Stock ring gap and piston to wall clearance for the DISI.
- If thestaplegunkid's bore was true or anyone that blows this way - what their bore measurements are.
- Injector flow rate from a car that blew in this manner.

Since all signs point to a piston seizure and not the rods, perhaps there is something to go on here. Dealers upon inspection have mentioned before that the piston locked in a bore and that injectors were malfunctioning in cars that blew and people that have posted.

We're down to:

- Bad injector washing down oil
- Oil did not get to the bore
- Too much heat in piston expands it
- Buildup on rings lock the ring in place
- Bore not machined well
- Piston not machined well
- Ring gap too small

[Ghost Rider]

well lex, I was just going to ask you about the injector issue but it looks like you have it there

we have had at least one person blow because of an injector issue right? (can't remember) if the injector is not seated properly would it effect where/how it sprays thus leading to the problems you are listing?

[KaiserSoze]

Originally Posted by AndyMS3 Anyone know what the piston rings are made of?

Apparently, Jell-O.

[badams118]

Originally Posted by fhaze Those don't seem particularly high to me. In fact they seem normal. Check my logs here...details in post. Logs

ECT should have been in the 190 range. BAT should not have been north of 155 with an FMIC. Every time I left a stop light it would knock badly. Once it stuttered & belched a bunch of black smoke out the exhaust. It was definitely not normal.

There very well could have been a problem with the meth install. The control lights were lighting, but it should have been cooling more. The meth wasnt helping CL problems anyway, so I basically said fuck this & traded it.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Ghost Rider well lex, I was just going to ask you about the injector issue but it looks like you have it there we have had at least one person blow because of an injector issue right? (can't remember) if the injector is not seated properly would it effect where/how it sprays thus leading to the problems you are listing?

Yes, injector not seated right could also cause an issue.

[fhaze]

Just thinking out loud here..

1800psi is a lot of force...I haven't removed or installed these injectors so I don't know if this is possible, but is there a chance of an injector backing out or dislodging enough to change the spray pattern?

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by Lex Alright, let's summarize here: - The oil control rings get plugged easily on this car, especially if not using synthetic Note that this is caused by poor oil resistance to coking, if this is a problem a synthetic could actually be worse. Of the oils out there, Redline and diesel oils have the highest resistance to coking and deposits. - Thestaplegunkid blew his motor shifting part throttle after the car has been sitting for a while like a lot of motors go. - The bore on the piston that blew indicates that the piston seized in the bore, caused the rod to twist, and all hell broke loose. - The way the piston broke indicates that the exhaust side (washed down by fuel) ring seized and the intake sideskirt just broke off. Honestly I looked at that bore and didnt see evidence of piston siezure. - This happened on a shift. It's important to realize that when shifting there is a change in moment of the piston - the momentum drops as you go up a gear and load increases on the piston. This means there is more lateral force on the piston against the wall and less momentum to carry the piston through the motion if there is a sticky point. This further supports the theory why these engines blow during shifting and not WOT at high RPMs. Even further, this is when injector pulsewidth changes quickly from a longer PW to a shorter one and again to a longer one as the clutch is put in and acceleration applied. I believe the staplegunkid's piston locked on the compression stroke with the piston moving towards TDC after the injector fired (it fires during the intake stroke). - The engine was heatsoaked in most circumstances of blowing. - The injectors spray at the wall of the cylinder washing down the oil film on it on the exhaust side and they leak when the car has sat for a while again washing down the walls. - There is a large amount of soot buildup in the combustion chambers. This can affect the injector spray pattern and how much fuel it delivers and how well it is atomized. Poorly atomized fuel doesn't burn as well and is more likely to impinge on cylinder wall. The soot doesnt effect the spray pattern, the spray pattern effects the soot. A poorly designed injector or a injector operating at low net rail pressures can be unable to properly atomize the fuel. This fuel which has a droplet diameter that is too large is unable to properly vaporize and when burned the inner part of the droplet is not exposed to oxygen and is not properly burned. This unburned fuel then turns to carbon due to heat and that carbon ends up being cumbustion chamber deposits and that crap on your tail pipe surrounds. - The injector spray pattern likely cools and heats the piston unevenly across its surface. I dont think this is a major issue because of the frequency of the injector pulses. - We know part throttle - full throttle conditions and just plain acceleration after the car sat for a while causes detonation which can further worsen this issue. What I still need to find out: - Stock ring gap and piston to wall clearance for the DISI. If coking is really an issue (it likely could be) ring gap and piston to wall clearance arent the issue. The real issue is the height of the ring pack, the higher on the piston the ring pack is the lower the emissions and the hotter they run - which leads to the coking issue. - If thestaplegunkid's bore was true or anyone that blows this way - what their bore measurements are. Its unlikely that his bore was not true because if I remember correctly I could still see the factory machining marks from when they preped the bore. - Injector flow rate from a car that blew in this manner. Since all signs point to a piston seizure and not the rods, perhaps there is something to go on here. Dealers upon inspection have mentioned before that the piston locked in a bore and that injectors were malfunctioning in cars that blew and people that have posted. We're down to: - Bad injector washing down oil - Oil did not get to the bore - Too much heat in piston expands it - Buildup on rings lock the ring in place - Bore not machined well - Piston not machined well - Ring gap too small

Good luck trying to quote that.

[Scatt Nasty]

lol, and there was what, 5 people that sold their cars due to Lex's theory ?

I give up.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by Scatt Nasty lol, and there was what, 5 people that sold their cars due to Lex's theory ?

Ain't that some shit.

[Deadman]

has your theory come about yet twelveinch?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 The soot doesnt effect the spray pattern, the spray pattern effects the soot. A poorly designed injector or a injector operating at low net rail pressures can be unable to properly atomize the fuel. This fuel which has a droplet diameter that is too large is unable to properly vaporize and when burned the inner part of the droplet is not exposed to oxygen and is not properly burned. This unburned fuel then turns to carbon due to heat and that carbon ends up being cumbustion chamber deposits and that crap on your tail pipe surrounds.

There has been evidence in testing that the carbon buildup inside the combustion chamber and on the injectors can affect their performance. A lot of other things can of course affect their performance. Yes, I know the reason for the soot.

I was just approached by a member that had a faulty injector that led to his block having low compression in that cylinder due to washdown and was replaced under warranty. Mazda took over a year to diagnose the problem in spite of the customer having CELs.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 If coking is really an issue (it likely could be) ring gap and piston to wall clearance arent the issue. The real issue is the height of the ring pack, the higher on the piston the ring pack is the lower the emissions and the hotter they run - which leads to the coking issue.

And coking/build-up could eventually lead to rings locking and failure.

Good points. What is your take on the failure(s)? These are not isolated incidents.

Whether people sell their cars or not because of what I post still doesn't change the fact that there's an issue here.

Just posted today: BLOWN MOTOR...2nd time - Mazda6 / Atenza

There is a common link here - too many of these part throttle piston seizures:

Guess what this is?

[06Speed6]

Honestly I think it could be a range of small things that are snow balling into a grenaded engine. Ive seen nothing that on its own just screams blown engine.

I originally threw out there that I thought the IM could be the cause since it has nearly a 25% flow difference between the runners but I am ready to throw that out since on paper it should only lead to blown engines at WOT where the difference makes the most impact, and there are very few WOT failures and we know why they all failed.

I also dont think that its the EGR, PCV, oil injestion, block strength, crank, rods, girdle, chamber shape, spark plug heat ranges, wrist pins, or valve failures.

That leaves, tune, piston, rotating assembly geometry, over rev, and rings, and I am kind of on the fence about the rings since they are pretty obvious when they fail and I havent seen the signs.

Ive wondered if the last engine in this thread was a over rev because of the way the pin pulled through the piston boss. This engine has a theorectial redline of ~6700rpm as per the stroke and you can probably hit that on a missed shift.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Honestly I think it could be a range of small things that are snow balling into a grenaded engine. Ive seen nothing that on its own just screams blown engine. I originally threw out there that I thought the IM could be the cause since it has nearly a 25% flow difference between the runners but I am ready to throw that out since on paper it should only lead to blown engines at WOT where the difference makes the most impact, and there are very few WOT failures and we know why they all failed. I also dont think that its the EGR, PCV, oil injestion, block strength, crank, rods, girdle, chamber shape, spark plug heat ranges, wrist pins, or valve failures. That leaves, tune, piston, rotating assembly geometry, over rev, and rings, and I am kind of on the fence about the rings since they are pretty obvious when they fail and I havent seen the signs. Ive wondered if the last engine in this thread was a over rev because of the way the pin pulled through the piston boss. This engine has a theorectial redline of ~6700rpm as per the stroke and you can probably hit that on a missed shift.

What signs do you look for with a ring failure?

Something I have found odd on the piston I have is that the second compression ring becomes wider close to the ring gap. Any reasoning for this? (See picture)

EDIT: Answered my own question. See the detailed picture below of the rings. You will see that the second compression ring is made of "multiple layers" whereas the first compression ring is one piece. For most of the ring one of these layers is slightly thinner and it joins the others at the gap end. (again see pic)

[_Toxic_]

There very well could have been a problem with the meth install. The control lights were lighting, but it should have been cooling more. The meth wasnt helping CL problems anyway, so I basically said fuck this & traded it.

"could have been a problem with the meth install"?? Who is saying meth is working fine on these cars? The tuning companies?

[Scatt Nasty]

Originally Posted by _Toxic_ "could have been a problem with the meth install"?? Who is saying meth is working fine on these cars? The tuning companies?

lol the amount of cooling the meth actually does depends on your mixture and how far from the the TB you mounted the nozzle.

further away + water = cool

close + meth = fuel

[_Toxic_]

Originally Posted by Scatt Nasty lol the amount of cooling the meth actually does depends on your mixture and how far from the the TB you mounted the nozzle. further away + water = cool close + meth = fuel

I was just wondering if spraying meth in the engine was good at all... in these cars..

[Lex]

A good read on piston ring design - more than most people want to know

Piston Ring Handbook

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by _Toxic_ I was just wondering if spraying meth in the engine was good at all... in these cars..

Yeah it's fine.

Originally Posted by Deadman has your theory come about yet twelveinch?

yes.

I have started writing the "article"- trust me it's going to be at least 5 pages of writing so I think I'm just going to post a PDF when I'm done. I am currently gathering examples of various things, diagrams, etc. This week we are supposed to be in the 60's and I night probably low 40's-50's F temps which will be perfect weather to do my data logs.

I spoke with MATT so he knows what's up. Just give me time about a week because I work full-time and I am re-modeling my house so don't have much time to sit around.

Plus, re-sealing the oil pan last night I had time to look from underneath at the rod and pistons and I'll tell you this; whatever the whether; whatever the abuse there's no sign of damage and wear (i.e detonation, metal floating in the oil, etc etc etc.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Plus, re-sealing the oil pan last night I had time to look from underneath at the rod and pistons and I'll tell you this; whatever the whether; whatever the abuse there's no sign of damage and wear (i.e detonation, metal floating in the oil, etc etc etc.

I love to be a believer of good things to come but how can you even identify that there is no detonation damage from looking at the back of pistons and rod caps? Plus, none of the cars that I've seen apart and blown have had any detonation damage even on the tops of the pistons.

Anyways, hope this is worth the hype.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by Lex I love to be a believer of good things to come but how can you even identify that there is no detonation damage from looking at the back of pistons and rod caps? Plus, none of the cars that I've seen apart and blown have had any detonation damage even on the tops of the pistons. Anyways, hope this is worth the hype.

It the damage was extremely severe i.e if there was damage being done to my motor, you would be able to tell just from being underneath. (bend rods, etc) but we're talking severe mild to severe damage. But, it the damage was severe, I know the motor wouldn't be running right.

If I had 3rd daily driver I would pull my motor in the next month just to inspect the rods and pistons and I guarantee you- you'll find nothing but a healthy motor.

About the hype, to be quite honest, it wasn't my intention. It's not like I made a "break-through" discovery of what is causing the issue and that it has to be address by Mazda or AM performance companies right away to get a "fix".

The injectors, the way they spray, and everything else, are working like they should. If the injectors were at fault MS3's would be blowing left and right- stock and modded.

The problem is minor- one at best- that people are going to ridicule and say that ain't it. Yes, it ain't a problem but problems situated under different conditions.

One of the (minor) problems is the PCV system but such a minor one that it alone isn't the reason the people that blew their engine- blew. At most, it's a minor contribution to the issue (which will vary from car to car) other wise a lot more speed3 would have blown. The number of people that blue is like a fraction of 1 percent.....

I'm just surprised how many people were turned away from modding the cars or just completely getting rid of it because a few cars blew.

[Deadman]

so what is another reason? Or the biggest reason the motors have blown?

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by Deadman so what is another reason? Or the biggest reason the motors have blown?

Wait for the thread because if I say what it is it will make sense but I wanted to explain in the detail step by step so that there's justification with backed up facts as to why.

[failure]

Are you gonna offer a $20 solution to go with it?

[Deadman]

When is this "so called thread" gonna spring into action sir?!

[flyrevs2]

twelveinch already has stated he is working on a 5 page document, plus he has settled down and is adding to the thread - stop busting his ass and just wait for his response - why are there a handfull of retards always trying to stir up crap? - chill out

SIDE NOTE: If you are not posting something useful or related to this thread, then stop posting, it's hard to read the useful information posted here when there are lots of posts where people are just whining and bitching and posting what amounts to spam.

[spnkr21]

I'm not reading 5 pages as the first post so maybe have a good opening paragraph that will tell me

[AFcadet]

Im going to be tearing apart my blown motor this weekend. Ill make sure to get pictures.

I have a similar looking hole in the block...rod blew right through it.



We will see if the piston is siezed or shows any signs of it when I open it up

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by failure Are you gonna offer a $20 solution to go with it?

Unfortunately not, more like a 30 minute wait.

Originally Posted by Deadman When is this "so called thread" gonna spring into action sir?!

Give me about a week because I am seriously busy and I don't want to rush this.

Originally Posted by spnkr21 I'm not reading 5 pages as the first post so maybe have a good opening paragraph that will tell me

That's your problem. I could care less if you read it or not.

Plus, I also want to PM majority of the people that blew their motor to get their responses for some questions that I have which that alone will take a few days plus it also depends if they are willing to answer some questions.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by AFcadet Im going to be tearing apart my blown motor this weekend. Ill make sure to get pictures. I have a similar looking hole in the block...rod blew right through it. We will see if the piston is siezed or shows any signs of it when I open it up

Please PM me when you're tearing this apart, I hope to get all the details to learn more from the failure. If you have the correct tools to measure the bore, I would be very much interested in those measurements as I think we'll learn quite a bit from them.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by _Toxic_ I was just wondering if spraying meth in the engine was good at all... in these cars..

I have gone through about 7 gallons of pure meth so far.

My engine is very happy with the meth.

[ktan91]

I honestly don't think we blow that many engines! Have you guys never gone to the Subaru forums? I just read blown motors as being random.. maybe it's just bad luck!

But I do agree about the new piston design in the EcoBoost.. They knew something was up but I don't think it affects it THAT much to cause major problems in our engine.

So..... anyone got a solution to my car knocking like crazy cruising on the highway?

[lidokrantz]

good thread everyone....let's give trickytwelveinch some time and space to give his opinions, theories and input and hopefully members with blown Engines will respond to his questions... I AM DOWN FOR SOME GOOD READING....5 pages no problem man....you write i will read it happily!! And again i believe we all all glad Lex is trying to figure this out.

[smakdown61]

I think the block is made of weak material. It should hold the rod in lol.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by smakdown61 I think the block is made of weak material. It should hold the rod in lol.

Maybe Mazda owns stock in JB Weld...and wants us to patch the holes...

[QuickSpool]

if it were a 4g63 it would. Damned aluminum.