We're getting somewhere ...

[trickytwelveinch]

What I am trying to get you guys understand is that correlation factor. A very minimal amount of MS3 blew to brush the whole engine off as weak, bad design (i.e, rods, pistons, injectors). Again, I am not knocking on LEX and what he is doing or anyone else.

Originally Posted by ktan91 I honestly don't think we blow that many engines! Have you guys never gone to the Subaru forums? I just read blown motors as being random.. maybe it's just bad luck!

If these rods and pistons and even the block itself was weak as it is believed these motors would be blowing on dynos left and right along with stock MS3 blowing from the east coast to the west coast- from the states to to Europe.... Subies blow left and right. Few locals shops blew quite a few... some brand new or just a mod or two.

The US engine spec MS3 is not maxed out in regards to what it offers in respect to performance. The Australian MS3 out of the factory dubbed the "MS3 EXTREME" rated at 281HP & 313 lb-ft of torque.

But I do agree about the new piston design in the EcoBoost.. They knew something was up but I don't think it affects it THAT much to cause major problems in our engine.

so...so...so...close...it's all about.....

So..... anyone got a solution to my car knocking like crazy cruising on the highway?

:peace: start a new thread or look for my PM.

[p057]

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 The piston in the new ecoboost engine

Combustion chamber for DISI engine - Patent 6612282

Scroll down almost to the end here:
Direct Injection Systems

That's what the swirl shutter/flappers are for (remember a long time ago, we had a "recall" for those swirl shutter valves getting stuck closed? Is that the same thing or similar but unrelated?) instead of the leveled piston head.

It was to reduce cost and simplify piston design.


I wonder how many people actually went to the dealership to get that fixed... Or if it has any relation at all.

[superskaterxes]

if you look in the service manual they have the diagram of how the VTCS actually "swirls" the air going into the combustion chamber which def might be a problem now that i think about it. i guess when u design a injector spray pattern as retarded as ours and then remove its bandaid your asking for problems.

[Deadman]

I had mine fixed. Shutter valve kept getting stuck closed or w.e ... it happened one time after and never again

[djuosnteisn]

Some thoughts i had last night that could contribute to the theory of this thread are these:

- Could the cylinder bores be out of spec slightly, not a true 90 degrees to the crank center line? this would definitely aggravate any ring & cylinder friction issues.
- Cylinder wall thickness. Does anyone know how thick ours are? This could screw up the ring seals and also contribute to ring & cylinder friction. Also blow by would probably be common and oil consumption. This would be more evident with higher hp levels, and probably not applicable since our blown engines don't seem to target the high hp guys any more or less than the stockish guys.
- Are our blocks open or closed deck?

Thanks again lex.

[badams118]

The 2.3L Turbo DISI engine code is L3-VDT, and NA-VVT version L3-VE. Bore 87.5mm, stroke 94mm both. The blocks are the same for both, aluminum, closed deck with iron sleeves cast in.

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?p=32045282

[subparpunk03]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes if you look in the service manual they have the diagram of how the VTCS actually "swirls" the air going into the combustion chamber which def might be a problem now that i think about it. i guess when u design a injector spray pattern as retarded as ours and then remove its bandaid your asking for problems.

Is there statistical evidence to support that? What percentage of people blown have had the VTCS deleted? I don't buy this as a reason for throwing a rod.

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by badams118 The 2.3L Turbo DISI engine code is L3-VDT, and NA-VVT version L3-VE. Bore 87.5mm, stroke 94mm both. The blocks are the same for both, aluminum, closed deck with iron sleeves cast in. MZR infos for teh Mr E.G. - Honda-Tech

nice find, but why is that on a honda forum?

edit: NM, searched and found this thread: http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread...&highlight=MZR

looks like he was thinking about swapping the MZR into a different chassis and his goal was 400whp. I wonder if he was ever successful.

[trickytwelveinch]

Reason: piston ring/cylinder friction caused over time (some in the short run basis others in the long run) due to insufficient oil lubrication along with too much heat and too little heat.

Edit: the small amount of engines that blew is due to pro-long damage done being over-time. These pistons/rods failing like this doesn't just happen overnight. There's more to it but that's the basis and so I'll explain everything when I'm done writing my "article".

[phantom3]

"Uh oh, Ford has been using these motors in Austrailian cars. XCORP was founded in 1991??? Its apparent that Ford has been working with these guys. So anyways, that’s nice. The DI system has been licensed to Ford and GM, as well as Mercury ( a boat engine manufacturer). Wow, crazy to see that Ford and GM both released their high output turbocharged DI motors within a year of eachother (sarcasm)

And, look at this, too. The special piston designs from 1996-2003 were replaced with the flapper system in the intake manifolds, which cause the air to tumble into the cylinders, the swirl effect, exactly the reasoning for the goofy shaped pistons in the preliminary GDI designs. The usage of swirl valves causes a spinning air movement, like a tornado turned horizontally, rolling like a barrel, which causes atomization of the fuel and air together in the cylinder, instead of the goofy darth vader mask pistons which do the same thing at more $$$ to the manufacture, and more research and design"

Direct Injection Systems

Seems pretty clear to me.
We need the VTCS or the eco pistons. Without either we're fucked.
How many blowies had the VTCS removed?
I fully believe that the problem is fuel wash down. Maybe we could benefit from re-engineered oil squirters? That would be a pretty easy fix. Not much harder than a BSD... Food for thought.

[boardjnky4]

wait, people have been removing the VTCS from their cars?

[m4tic]

Originally Posted by boardjnky4 wait, people have been removing the VTCS from their cars?

yea, search for VTCS delete

[boardjnky4]

have those same people been blowing engines?

[m4tic]

i think we need a new poll!

[flyrevs2]

Originally Posted by phantom3 I fully believe that the problem is fuel wash down. Maybe we could benefit from re-engineered oil squirters? That would be a pretty easy fix. Not much harder than a BSD... Food for thought.

How about a small amount of oil mixed in the fuel, kind of like a 2 stroke but not as much oil ? Sounds lame but would this help keep the cylinder walls oiled ?

[boardjnky4]

It's pretty clear to me that from a design perspective, the VTCS OR the Funky Piston ring is needed(as phantom3 already stated)

So it seems to me that it's a pretty dumb move to REMOVE this part(although maybe nobody knew any better)

Also, it IS possible that dumping more fuel causes the VTCS to malfunction. That is also worth looking into.

[p057]

Originally Posted by boardjnky4 It's pretty clear to me that from a design perspective, the VTCS OR the Funky Piston ring is needed(as phantom3 already stated) So it seems to me that it's a pretty dumb move to REMOVE this part(although maybe nobody knew any better) Also, it IS possible that dumping more fuel causes the VTCS to malfunction. That is also worth looking into.

I doubt VCTS is the culprit; i wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

[boardjnky4]

not jumping to conclusions...merely offering insight

in order to make a conclusion, you need to do testing

[JumpingJackson]

VCTS flaps are only used during cold starts & idle BTW, after it warms up they are open 100%

[phantom3]

What about the swirl in general?

Not in relation to the VTCS but rather to the flow mods (Ie: FMIC, CIA, SRI, TIP, ect) All these things have an affect on flow which in turn affects the flow (Read swirl) into the cylinder chamber.

If our flow mods are altering the swirl pattern enough, the fuel won't suspend properly in the air. If it's not suspending it may be shooting straight onto the cylinder wall affecting the lubrication causing the piston to bind.

It's possible that 2 cycle may be the way to go. Rotary's run 2 cycle to help with the high wear. MIGHT be our solution as well.

[QUOTE=boardjnky4;324466it IS possible that dumping more fuel causes the VTCS to malfunction. That is also worth looking into.[/QUOTE]

I don't see how dumping more fuel can cause the VTCS to malfunction as the injector comes after the VTCS.

[Thestaplegunkid]

And just to confirm, my VTCS was fully functional. So I don't think that's the smoking gun. (VTCS currently being removed .... just gotta weld up some holes)

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by Thestaplegunkid And just to confirm, my VTCS was fully functional. So I don't think that's the smoking gun. (VTCS currently being removed .... just gotta weld up some holes)

What about flow mods? (intake, ic, ect) Did you have any of those?

Note: Don't everyone freak out. I'm merely postulating.

[djuosnteisn]

I doubt its swirl related. Other things like 400 - 1700 psi fuel pressure, VVT, RPM in general, exh back pressure, etc etc etc would all affect the fuel atomization & suspension much more imo.

[phantom3]

Maybe my next project will be a set of light weight billet cnc'd pistons. Maybe Aluminum rods to go with...

EDIT: Maybe I'll just CNC an entire engine... maybe that would work better... lol

[_Toxic_]

Originally Posted by phantom3 What about the swirl in general? Not in relation to the VTCS but rather to the flow mods (Ie: FMIC, CIA, SRI, TIP, ect) All these things have an affect on flow which in turn affects the flow (Read swirl) into the cylinder chamber. If our flow mods are altering the swirl pattern enough, the fuel won't suspend properly in the air. If it's not suspending it may be shooting straight onto the cylinder wall affecting the lubrication causing the piston to bind.

I think you are on too something here!

[darth vader]

Originally Posted by flyrevs2 How about a small amount of oil mixed in the fuel, kind of like a 2 stroke but not as much oil ? Sounds lame but would this help keep the cylinder walls oiled ?

Negative, that would just reduce fuel octane and likely INDUCE knock. You have to get the oil in from the non-combustion side, that's why there's rings.

[phantom3]

Why can't we get aftermarket injectors!?!?! lol

[halifaxm3s]

Originally Posted by phantom3 "Seems pretty clear to me. We need the VTCS or the eco pistons. Without either we're fucked.

I was thinking the same thing today as well. Do the upgraded fuel pumps increase the output pressure of the injectors??? Because the injectors spray pattern could be affected by the higher pressures.

[darth vader]

Tough to believe DI is the culprit. It's been around since the 1930s. If it was good enough for Daimler-Benz to put in a Bf-109, it oughta be good enough for our little engine.

Of course, stupidity and engineering accidents are timeless, I guess.

[manofhonor24]

How about you take everyting out the engine and replace it with an evo drivetrain and call it a day......LOL (BTW I am kidding)

[Scatt Nasty]

Originally Posted by manofhonor24 How about you take everyting out the engine and replace it with an evo drivetrain and call it a day......LOL (BTW I am kidding)

you just became "that guy"

[ms686]

what a read. i cant remember what page but as far as I know the total number of MS6 made were 5000 in 2006 and another 5000 in 2007. how many ms6 have blown thus far? I have no idea about total ms3 or cx7 made. I know I killed a 06 speed 6 from hydrolocking so now max of 4999

[superskaterxes]

wheres that guy with the scope camera who was documenting meth cleaning the cylinder heads. maby we can stick that shit in there and crank the motor to see exactly how the spray pattern is spraying or something. or maby even to just look at carbon deposits/damage.

[802MS3]

I think socks did that.

[dphm]

so what ever happened to trickytwelveinch's super article?

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by dphm so what ever happened to trickytwelveinch's super article?

I was wondering the same thing.......

[trickytwelveinch]

I'll post it when it's done, maybe a week, maybe a month or maybe three. Sorry, but I got more important things to do, then to sit and gather data and write an article about actual facts that majority of people are going to call BS anyway- that's just my opinion.

Plus, the percentage of people who blew their motors is like what, less than 1%? Nothing too serious, just end-user error.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch I'll post it when it's done, maybe a week, maybe a month or maybe three. Sorry, but I got more important things to do, then to sit and gather data and write an article about actual facts that majority of people are going to call BS anyway- that's just my opinion. Plus, the percentage of people who blew their motors is like what, less than 1%? Nothing too serious, just end-user error.

You nailed it on the head, there isn't anything you can add that hasn't already been discussed. Unfortunately you did have the time to make a big fuss about it.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by Lex You nailed it on the head, there isn't anything you can add that hasn't already been discussed. Unfortunately you did have the time to make a big fuss about it.

SNAP!

[Thestaplegunkid]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch I'll post it when it's done, maybe a week, maybe a month or maybe three. Sorry, but I got more important things to do, then to sit and gather data and write an article about actual facts that majority of people are going to call BS anyway- that's just my opinion. Plus, the percentage of people who blew their motors is like what, less than 1%? Nothing too serious, just end-user error.

Well that is a god damned shame.

I must say, if your "article" is anything like your typical thread posts, it should be an "entertaining" read if nothing else.