We're getting somewhere ...

[flyrevs2]

let trickytwelve inch take the time to write an informative article, and not just something quick cuz people are giving him a hard time because it's not done yet. He's remoldeling his house and working a normal job so if you've ever done that you know you don't have much time left in your day.

[Ploppity Drown]

Originally Posted by Lex One of the root causes of the issue here is fuel impingement. Who the fuck designs an injector that sprays at the cylinder wall?? Diesels have it too. But diesels have the injector at the top of the cylinder and have a dish to disperse the fuel away from the cylinder wall. I honestly don't think ANY of us are immune to oil control rings failing, carbon buildup on the ring lands, and likely piston seizure. Jon at PTP has said this before. On top of this, look at the piston crowns. The fuel spray is cooling parts of the piston unevenly causing hot spots and perhaps weakening the material. Throw in a little detonation due to oil now entering the combustion chamber and lowering octane, more boost, carbon buildup, and a closed/open loop transition and you have a recipe for a seized piston. That then takes out the rod. Nothing to do with weak rods here. It's not a coincidence you see knock after a lot of highway cruising. It's not a coincidence the car commands more fuel when knock is encountered. Does the oil consumption issue now make sense? Thestaplegunkid said he had oil burning 4 days before it blew. Finally, take a look at the bore where he blew the motor. Look at the scuffing. Look at the mark on the bore. That's where the piston seized, it cracked, and the carnage proceeded.

Lex, could you explain why this carbon buildup (within the combustion chamber and especially on the oil control rings), uneven cooling of the piston heads, and fuel washing down the lubrication between rings and the cylinder wall would cause knock especially after highway cruising?

I understand these symptoms would make the engine more prone to knocking in general, but I don't see why highway cruising would magnify the effect. It is something I've noticed on the DashHawk during long, spirited freeway trips. But I didn't hear any knock or experience power loss at those times. That's only occurred a handful of times under full boost, generally with a heat-soaked engine. Cruising on the highway my BATs stay pretty low.

...

I've been chasing the knock issue for a while. After returning my intake and rear MM to stock I'm still experiencing just as much real and "phantom" knock as I did before.

In fact I've been seeing higher levels of phantom knock. It appears just as consistently--early in my to/from work commutes while I'm merging onto the freeway (gently, I might add) on a slightly cool engine. But the KR has been hitting the 7's where before it only reached the 5's or 6's before gradually tapering down to 0. Could be the colder weather the past few days.

I've also experienced rougher starts over the past several months.

Anyway, I've taken a page from the RX8club handbook and I'm gonna try premixing with a "lubricious cleaner"--Marvel Mystery Oil. With any luck that will clean up/better lubricate my combustion chambers and piston rings. We'll see.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by Lex You nailed it on the head, there isn't anything you can add that hasn't already been discussed. Unfortunately you did have the time to make a big fuss about it.

Aren't you a smart one?

Honestly bro, I could care less. Everything you posted to me is a good read at work- but that's all it is- a good read that merely amuses me. Here's a fact: my car runs great, no knock, proper a/f ratios, temps, boost, etc, etc, etc- and that's all I personally care about- as long as my car runs great that's all that matters.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Aren't you a smart one? Honestly bro, I could care less. Everything you posted to me is a good read at work- but that's all it is- a good read that merely amuses me. Here's a fact: my car runs great, no knock, proper a/f ratios, temps, boost, etc, etc, etc- and that's all I personally care about- as long as my car runs great that's all that matters.

After all ignorance is bliss.

Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown Lex, could you explain why this carbon buildup (within the combustion chamber and especially on the oil control rings), uneven cooling of the piston heads, and fuel washing down the lubrication between rings and the cylinder wall would cause knock especially after highway cruising? I understand these symptoms would make the engine more prone to knocking in general, but I don't see why highway cruising would magnify the effect. It is something I've noticed on the DashHawk during long, spirited freeway trips. But I didn't hear any knock or experience power loss at those times. That's only occurred a handful of times under full boost, generally with a heat-soaked engine. Cruising on the highway my BATs stay pretty low. ... I've been chasing the knock issue for a while. After returning my intake and rear MM to stock I'm still experiencing just as much real and "phantom" knock as I did before. In fact I've been seeing higher levels of phantom knock. It appears just as consistently--early in my to/from work commutes while I'm merging onto the freeway (gently, I might add) on a slightly cool engine. But the KR has been hitting the 7's where before it only reached the 5's or 6's before gradually tapering down to 0. Could be the colder weather the past few days. I've also experienced rougher starts over the past several months. Anyway, I've taken a page from the RX8club handbook and I'm gonna try premixing with a "lubricious cleaner"--Marvel Mystery Oil. With any luck that will clean up/better lubricate my combustion chambers and piston rings. We'll see.

During highway cruising operation, the engine experiences relatively high combustion temperatures. The Mazda ECU targets fairly advanced timing and relies on the knock sensor during cruise to achieve the best economy and performance.

Also during colder weather, the expansion of internal engine components is more dramatic as the engine warms up. This can contribute to more engine "noise" that is picked up by the sensor.

Further to this the air mixture is denser when cold.

The combustion process is rather complicated and without a thorough analysis of what exactly is going on, we have to rely on the control system to keep the car alive and well.

The blown motors we see, although they blow at low load and RPMs, have damage done to them prior. Knock at WOT is a much more serious condition. At low loads, I wouldn't worry about KR.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by Lex After all ignorance is bliss.

It sure is.

The blown motors we see, although they blow at low load and RPMs, have damage done to them prior. Knock at WOT is a much more serious condition. At low loads, I wouldn't worry about KR.

[/quote]

You don't say? It's funny when I stated that long time ago when you were still head-up in your "deep" analysis instead of using common sense- (as the reason being part of the end-user contribution) everyone went on the shit wagon against me and said I was speaking out of my ass.

Good find genius, welcome back to like 3 months ago; now go back to your home work shop, and build these guys a magic ball that's going to keep the MS3 motors from popping from regular wear and stress.

[djuosnteisn]

We've always said pro-longed stress was a killer. Lex was the one who found out exactly how it kills, e.g. piston seizing.

Now get back to writing your 5 month paper about shit we already know.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn We've always said pro-longed stress was a killer. Lex was the one who found out exactly how it kills, e.g. piston seizing. Now get back to writing your 5 month paper about shit we already know.

Yeah, piston seizing, I didn't have to do the hard work to figure that out which is what was documented in my paper and referred to in my previous posts but of course no one listened.

Aren't you a smart one? Your boy Lex "figured" something out (unfortunately, after I already posted that tid bit) and you're acting like you know, oh so, much. Good for you son, bravo.

[djuosnteisn]

Dude, what are you even saying? Seriously, if you spent half the time writing your dumb paper as you do arguing and being a bitch fuck on the forum, you'd be published by now.

Someone thanks lex for his work and you piss on him, and then try to claim all the credit. So damn jealous. It's funny how bad you want to be the "cool guy" who helped the platform figure out the problems with the motor, but instead you just look like a jealous dog.

Where is your paper? How was something documented in it, if no one has ever seen it? Where is all your work and effort and discussion about anything beneficial to our platform? Have you ever contributed to any thread or just shit on them? I'm really asking. Post up some serious contribution by you, or better yet, post up your dumb fucking paper. You can even mail me a copy so i can wipe my ass with it and mail it back.

[Ploppity Drown]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch It sure is. You don't say? It's funny when I stated that long time ago when you were still head-up in your "deep" analysis instead of using common sense- (as the reason being part of the end-user contribution) everyone went on the shit wagon against me and said I was speaking out of my ass. Good find genius, welcome back to like 3 months ago; now go back to your home work shop, and build these guys a magic ball that's going to keep the MS3 motors from popping from regular wear and stress.

Dude, give it a rest. Seriously. You've already once admitted to and what's more, apologized for taking this thread off topic.

Go back and reread the thread, especially your own posts. In your debut post, you dismiss the OP's analysis as "bullshit", and then dismiss the entire forum membership as ignorant, disingenuous, or gullible. When you blatantly disrespect the OP (let alone the entire forum) don't be surprised if they return the favor.

Your main point---the engine failures reported on the forum, which represent a small fraction of the total in use, are not necessarily an indication of poor design but rather "user error"---is well taken. Unfortunately, what took me 30 words to express you spruced up with colorful language and personal attacks to the tune of several thousand words, across multiple posts.

If you expressed your opinion in a respectful, succinct manner, you would find that other members would in turn treat you with respect. Don't act like a child. Really, give it a shot. Rather than shouting and stamping your feet when no one seems to listen to you, try acting as though your opinion is worth listening to.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown If you expressed your opinion in a respectful, succinct manner, you would find that other members would in turn treat you with respect. Don't act like a child. Really, give it a shot. Rather than shouting and stamping your feet when no one seems to listen to you, try acting as though your opinion is worth listening to.

At this point, i'd rather him just stop typing all together. He does nothing but waste everyone's time. Forum is much better off without him IMO. Not a shred of contribution, but shit tons of distraction and frustration.

Thanks for the groan tricky small dick, and i happily groan you back.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Dude, what are you even saying? Seriously, if you spent half the time writing your dumb paper as you do arguing and being a bitch fuck on the forum, you'd be published by now. Someone thanks lex for his work and you piss on him, and then try to claim all the credit. So damn jealous. It's funny how bad you want to be the "cool guy" who helped the platform figure out the problems with the motor, but instead you just look like a jealous dog. Where is your paper? How was something documented in it, if no one has ever seen it? Where is all your work and effort and discussion about anything beneficial to our platform? Have you ever contributed to any thread or just shit on them? I'm really asking. Post up some serious contribution by you, or better yet, post up your dumb fucking paper. You can even mail me a copy so i can wipe my ass with it and mail it back.

LOL. WTF are you talking about? Take a chill pill, step back, breath and relax. I'm jealous of what? Something that Lex posted that I already knew and made a shit load of references to in the past, something that I also ran by in summary with MATT DAMON about two months ago (fucking ask the guy if you don't believe me)

I ain't trying to take credit for nothing- don't fucking assume. Don't be mad or envious because you can't get your shitty ass car to run "efficiently"

Fuck the paper, why would I take my time and write something for someone like you? If anything I'll just run the paper and the steps that can be taken to prevent such engine damage to a degree by Matt himself and few of the locals. People like you, I could give to shit about if you blow or whatever else you try to do.

[Bigbody250]

Lex... If I can get the pics I might be able to contribute some more info to this...

To start off I'm one of the few that didn't throw a rod but I probly would have if I didn't use Lucas synthetic stabilizer along with Pennziol Platinum... My #3 piston melted on the same side that yours seized up (exhaust i believe). Which shows that that side of the piston is definately getting hotter than the rest of the combustion chamber

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch ...I'm jealous of what? Something that Lex posted that I already knew and made a shit load of references to in the past, something that I also ran by in summary with MATT DAMON about two months ago (fucking ask the guy if you don't believe me) I ain't trying to take credit for nothing- don't fucking assume. Don't be mad or envious because you can't get your shitty ass car to run "efficiently" ...

LAWLS at you trying to take credit in first paragraph and denying it in second paragraph.

And homie, my car runs tits, and i'm not an idiot. Would rather not read your paper, thx!

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by Ploppity Drown Dude, give it a rest. Seriously. You've already once admitted to and what's more, apologized for taking this thread off topic. Go back and reread the thread, especially your own posts. In your debut post, you dismiss the OP's analysis as "bullshit", and then dismiss the entire forum membership as ignorant, disingenuous, or gullible. When you blatantly disrespect the OP (let alone the entire forum) don't be surprised if they return the favor. Your main point---the engine failures reported on the forum, which represent a small fraction of the total in use, are not necessarily an indication of poor design but rather "user error"---is well taken. Unfortunately, what took me 30 words to express you spruced up with colorful language and personal attacks to the tune of several thousand words, across multiple posts. If you expressed your opinion in a respectful, succinct manner, you would find that other members would in turn treat you with respect. Don't act like a child. Really, give it a shot. Rather than shouting and stamping your feet when no one seems to listen to you, try acting as though your opinion is worth listening to.

I didn't take this off topic- I made a smart ass remark at Lex and he threw back an insult- then the rest of the guys joined. I'm the one who's immature? Tell that to the users of this forums who act like little kids insulting and getting ban on the other forums and talking shit on on on...etc etc..

A nice set of users of this forum making fun of the users on the other forums, yet, the users on this forum can't even install a stupid DP or have trouble after installing a DP or a CAI.... yet, they pride themselves as being "thoughtfully" knowledgeable about engine mechanics.

[madvillain]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Good find genius, welcome back to like 3 months ago; now go back to your home work shop, and build these guys a magic ball that's going to keep the MS3 motors from popping from regular wear and stress.

what the fuck man.... do something useful or just get the fuck out of here if you want your god damn recognition.

[djuosnteisn]

Tricky, lets use common sense here:


If your posts were the ones getting all the thanks, then it would be logical to assume that your "right" and people agree with you.




But you don't get any thanks... Like the ugly guy who hates women cause "they just don't get how hot he is".


Now i will proceed to drink myself into my costume and goblin dance all over msp6cop's face lol.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Tricky, lets use common sense here: If your posts were the ones getting all the thanks, then it would be logical to assume that your "right" and people agree with you. But you don't get any thanks... Like the ugly guy who hates women cause "they just don't get how hot he is". Now i will proceed to drink myself into my costume and goblin dance all over msp6cop's face lol.

"thanks" means nothing. Tell that to the douche who went and groaned all my threads- one is already banned and the other one should be as well- so let's do the math: subtract all those groans and I got more thanks than groans but oh well. Truth hurts for most of you guys and you're just as ignorant like the rest.

PS: type what you want, I'm done reading and typing like I said I'm not here to convince anyone

[danesti]

tricky-
dude i really dont like how much of a d-bag you are... but god damn back your shit up and post your paper.. and if we agree with it we would probably get off your case...

take that huge front off and inform.. if you can.
otherwise get the fuck out.

[trickytwelveinch]

Fuck it, I said I wouldn't read this shit or post, but it's just too damn addictive not to.

Regardless, I'll post my thread for what's it worth when I'm done taking care of my personal stuff which is more important then writing the paper now.

I'm not here to take credit for what Lex posted- I honestly, could care less who posts what. The fact still remains the shit that Lex posted with the piston seizing was well referenced and mentioned by me in the previous thread. Check that thread if you care to- unless the mods deleted the posts. Regardless, it's not the point to tell you guys "oh, it was me, it was me" nah, fuck that.

It the type of shit that djuosnteisn posts assuming I'm trying to take credit or any other BS.

If you don't fucking believe- I could care less. PM MATT DAMON or create a thread and he'll verify that when I spoke with him about two months ago I told him that it was the piston seizing due to friction inside the cylinder walls. and I'll guarantee you that he'll back me up on that. Piston seizing due to friction inside the cylinder walls doesn't mean shit. I told him that in the paper I will document and explain exactly what causes that and how it's caused.... etc, etc.

And it's funny how djuosnteisn attacks my previous posts but lays out the last few posts as I nail the gun on some of the things that are true around here.

Just like Lex said, ignorance is bliss. Lay of my ass, this is the internet forums and I chose to come of as a dickhead- some of you are just as bad as me but can't or choose not to see it.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Piston seizing due to friction inside the cylinder walls doesn't mean shit. I told him that in the paper I will document and explain exactly what causes that and how it's caused.... etc, etc.

So give us the quick and dirty on what is the root cause.
You could save some folks from blowing.
Post the full paper later when you have the time to finish it, give the quick paragraph now to maybe save my/someones engine.

[psychophyr]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch .... this is the internet forums and I chose to come of as a dickhead- ....

Chose to come off as a dickhead, why? Seems immature to just be a dick to people you dont know for no apparent reason other than just that you are really a dickhead and there was no "choice" to be made.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Bigbody250 Lex... If I can get the pics I might be able to contribute some more info to this... To start off I'm one of the few that didn't throw a rod but I probly would have if I didn't use Lucas synthetic stabilizer along with Pennziol Platinum... My #3 piston melted on the same side that yours seized up (exhaust i believe). Which shows that that side of the piston is definately getting hotter than the rest of the combustion chamber

To keep this on topic, I am very interested in what happened with your motor. Can you post more details, PM me, or make another thread about it? Was it an injector that failed resulting in that cylinder running lean?

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak So give us the quick and dirty on what is the root cause. You could save some folks from blowing. Post the full paper later when you have the time to finish it, give the quick paragraph now to maybe save my/someones engine.

I stated it in my previous post:

Friction inside the cylinder walls causes the piston to seize. Lack of lubrication is one thing. Too much heat is another (running exposed headers and down-pipe) one of many things.

I just posted my unfinished paper go and read it and get back to me.

[darth vader]

Are you seriously trying to suggest running an "exposed" DP puts more heat into the surrounding engine and this is seizing piston rings? Aside from the obvious distance away from the ring pack on the pistons, there's a freaking cat running over 1300* F right next to the block in a stocker. Adding a catless CS-DP and RP to my car dropped the "second cat temp" (really second O2 temp) to between 700-900 degrees in normal running.

The cat pipes are MAJOR heat sinks, that's how they work. The heat the bay up MASSIVELY more than a catless SS DP-RP does. That heat is whipping it's way down the exhaust pipe now and not sticking around baking things in the engine bay. That allowance for thermal expansion is alot of the reason DPs kill any semblance of turbo lag in this engine.

On top of that, the temps in the chamber any car is designed for are FAR higher than what any radiating heat source could produce. Combustion chamber pressures are in the thousands of psi under load on the power stroke, temps of 1000+ degrees aren't unusual.

This engine DOES beat up its oil. I suggest 10W40 synthetic only, frequently changed.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch ...And it's funny how djuosnteisn attacks my previous posts but lays out the last few posts as I nail the gun on some of the things that are true around here...

Hahaha, it is funny, cause i actually went to a party right after my last post. Didn't know you wanted me to stay in last night and keep working you over. Guess i'm not as addicted to the intrawebz as you.

I'm gonna go check out your paper now.