Who Has A Built Motor? Need Impressions

[phailerider]

i plan on posting my results as i get them. and by results, that doesnt just mean "pictures" either. the community can learn from failures just as much as successes. its unfortunate that most of those who are supposedly....

"paving the way",

are more concerned about ego, secrecy, and making snide comments about failures of others, or other products. All the while doing it without sharing their own true experiences both positive and negative about whatever they have "tried".

i find the general insinuations insulting, considering my setup, good or bad, is the only setup that actually fucking exists right now.... and has somebody actually talking about it. im tired of the complete lameness of others who compare real results with what "should be" or "could be" the way to go. And then doesnt have the balls to say why.

And if anybody reads this and thinks that i may be refering to anyone, or anyone plural, in particular.... then i would encourage you believe that it IS actually YOU that i am talking about.

theres alot of bullshit in this community.... if the average guy even knew what goes on, things would be alot different around here. Instead of actually trying to improve the community, we have people trying to "work every angle". In the meantime, the average guy doesnt have the first fucking clue what he REALLY should put on his car. In the end you cant sleep with EVERYBODY, before EVERYBODY finally figures it all out. And then, when that happens, youre exposed.....and nobody cares anymore either.

[Laloosh]

remove the knock sensor, wrap it in foam, tape the shit out of it with electrical tape, screw it back in. Did this on my over sensative specv knock sensor...worked fucken great.

The very last thing you want to do is disconnect the knock sensor.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Laloosh remove the knock sensor, wrap it in foam, tape the shit out of it with electrical tape, screw it back in. Did this on my over sensative specv knock sensor...worked fucken great. The very last thing you want to do is disconnect the knock sensor.

as a permanent solution i agree... thats why we are considering going with this(thanks kevin for the tip)..

J&S Electronics SafeGuard Indivdual Cylinder Knock Control

and Lou is working on some ideas as well. there are plenty of options for this one....This is a very common problem that virtually every company has to eventually deal with in more modded cars. the fact that we can generate knock in idle is what makes me KNOW, that it isnt real knock. for now, we have it so we can clamp it at 0. i'll have a map tuned of that for my baseline dynos next week, but im not gonna street drive it like that. were also gonna use a knock light on it, so i can get the feel for whats going on.

im gonna pick the car up as soon as i can hitch a ride. id go tomorrow if i could... i may just rent a car. anybody in NC want to see cpe and follow me home this weekend?....lol thats a joke... sort of.

[JimmyMac]

Darn, I just came back from the DC area this past weekend. I'd go, but I'm still waiting on my damn PG manifold to arrive. I'm hoping I can get it by this weekend so it can go on. But they have yet to respond to my PMs or thread posts.

Anyways, where is the knock sensor located? I have yet to look for it. This is stuff I'm gonna have to start playing with when I start tuning my car.

[phailerider]

i couldnt tell you where the knock sensor is exactly... but give me a couple days and i'll have 30 pictures from 30 angles.

when i get the car back, i'll be back to my old self. all these new guys since the spring have no idea about what theyre in for.... once i get my car back in MY driveway...lol

[Haltech]

Ive used the J&S and it solved a lot of problems for me on my 4.6 Modular Cobra, which has 2 factory knock sensors, disconnected from the factory ( Gee imagine that Ford, hmmm ). i was originally turned on by the device in 1992 by Kenny Duttweiler, who is the world renowned Buick Grand National builder. This guy showed me what it could do for my car when we werent software tuning back than. It's an amazing device and when properly set up, will save your ass more than you know. I was experiencing tip in detonation which were destroying the tips of my plugs. This detonation was not audible, nor would it show on any dyno run. After installing the J&S device on the car, it tracked my issue and i was able to narrow it down to a specific RPM, which allowed me to add more fuel in the programming and solved the problem. The reason it was able to save me was the device was pulling timing out instead allowing the tips to get completely eaten away. Another forum user at the time basically had the same build and same issue... Before he was able to find the fix like i did, he suffered a catastrophic piston failure in two cylinders.

Randy, i feel your frustrations. I like people who have bollocks (balls) and go forward with builds early in a platform. Ive done it myself and although frustrating, it does pay off in the long run when you have been apart of something. Unfortunately, this success comes at a steep price which includes, STRESS, FRUSTRATION and a SHITLOAD of $$. This also opens doors for better components. I wont say Arias and Pauter are shitty because im not familiar with these components having a domestic building background, but i do feel having only one option is not satisfying. Before i start my build, i want more options on the table.

I would like to know what happened to all of the built engine guys. Currently, theres 2 that are built, although Jon is having some issues now with his car. We have seen how many blown engines in a year? Granted, a few were able to get warranty replacements, but i also know several, were warrantied denied.

I attached a knock sensor guide below. It will show you the location of this sensor, DTC of this sensors, etc.

[ztuner]

Piston slap is indeed a function of piston composition and clearances. Piston slap can be reduced to stock levels on forged pistons by changing the composition of the pistion usually by adding silica. Arias are known to have the best anti slap properties. JE and CP the worst. Adding Silica adds weight and reduces strength slightly but also reduces the expansion coefficient of the material thus allowing closer tolerences to reduce piston slap. Coating the piston skirts allows closer tolerance but imo its a bandaid at best.

Another variable that affects piston slap is if the piston has an offset built into it relative to the pin. The offset is supposed to counter the rocking motion of the piston to some extent. If the engine assembler flips the piston you will experience piston slap. Most pistons are marked from the factory but its the assemblers job to verify. When you have a long rod relative to bore this even more of an issue (ms3)

The last variable is skirt length. A lot of high performance manufacturers reduce the skirt length to reduce friction and weight. Down side is added noise and wear on the cylinder walls and pistons.

I am not sure which of these issues is causing the problem on your built motors but it can be fixed with the correct composition piston, clearance, offset (if it exists) and the correct length skirt. You would need to call the piston manufacturer to discuss the pros and cons of each option.

Harry

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by Lex That is good information and correct - piston slap is a function of how a forged piston expands versus a cast piece. That being said, once warm, there should be no audible "slap"

that my friend would be accurate . Most piston slap should go away in a few seconds.

Harry

[Lex]

On my build I used Swain ceramic and side skirt coatings on my Wiseco pistons. It's not cheap but well worth it.

EDIT: The MS3 engines are noisy due to the high pressure injectors - this should not be confused with piston slap.

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by Lex On my build I used Swain ceramic and side skirt coatings on my Wiseco pistons. It's not cheap but well worth it. EDIT: The MS3 engines are noisy due to the high pressure injectors - this should not be confused with piston slap.

Wiescos are the shit - no slap on any of my Z32 motors. Aluminum forged pistons in cast iron block - what do you know ?

Harry

[CaptainKRM]

Originally Posted by Lex EDIT: The MS3 engines are noisy due to the high pressure injectors - this should not be confused with piston slap.

this is something i spoke to Randy and Laloosh about. the black foam insulator between the intake manifold and block was removed when the motor was put all back together. silly as it may sound, i am wondering if among other purposes this serves as a sound damper for not only the human ear but for the knock sensor as well to help it ignore what would not be actual knock from a very loud injector click.

Originally Posted by ztuner Piston slap is indeed a function of piston composition and clearances. Piston slap can be reduced to stock levels on forged pistons by changing the composition of the pistion usually by adding silica. Arias are known to have the best anti slap properties. JE and CP the worst. Adding Silica adds weight and reduces strength slightly but also reduces the expansion coefficient of the material thus allowing closer tolerences to reduce piston slap. Coating the piston skirts allows closer tolerance but imo its a bandaid at best. Another variable that affects piston slap is if the piston has an offset built into it relative to the pin. The offset is supposed to counter the rocking motion of the piston to some extent. If the engine assembler flips the piston you will experience piston slap. Most pistons are marked from the factory but its the assemblers job to verify. When you have a long rod relative to bore this even more of an issue (ms3) The last variable is skirt length. A lot of high performance manufacturers reduce the skirt length to reduce friction and weight. Down side is added noise and wear on the cylinder walls and pistons. I am not sure which of these issues is causing the problem on your built motors but it can be fixed with the correct composition piston, clearance, offset (if it exists) and the correct length skirt. You would need to call the piston manufacturer to discuss the pros and cons of each option. Harry

the Arias pistons we use do have a slightly shorter skirt length than OEM. i agree with the remarks about JE pistons. never was a fan of them and Wisecos I have used have also been "slap happy" so to speak. We have used treated pistons from Supertech that have been extremely noisy and while they are cheap and available for the 2.3 non turbo, i have not opted to have them make us a set of the DISI for the noise reasons.

Originally Posted by Haltech I would like to know what happened to all of the built engine guys. Currently, theres 2 that are built

we've sold 12 engines and several more sets of internals on top of that. not counting what I am sure Streetunit has sold of the CP/pauter combination. CP themselves told me they had shipped a set or two to Russia, of all places. there are people out there, and some are not on this forum (skylinemonster on 24/7 is a good example).

Originally Posted by JimmyMac Darn, I just came back from the DC area this past weekend. I'd go, but I'm still waiting on my damn PG manifold to arrive. I'm hoping I can get it by this weekend so it can go on. But they have yet to respond to my PMs or thread posts. Anyways, where is the knock sensor located? I have yet to look for it. This is stuff I'm gonna have to start playing with when I start tuning my car.

sorry, been going through my PMs from monday and the weekend, you are on my list.

the knock sensor is on the block, large black plastic assembly

[MazdaMan13]

lets go through a list of rebuilt engines that we know:
palerider
evilmonkey
ms3guy22(m3f)
tvissues(m3f)
mrlilguy(but stil on stock turbo and selling car)
andre0121(just internals not built yet)
ssinstaller(in the process of being rebuilt)
and i dont know anyone from 24/7 or 6club so someone else fill those in

[CaptainKRM]

jcgemt2003 - identical setup, component wise, to randy's with the exception of compression ratio
skylinemonster - also running GT series turbo with external wastegate

[MazdaMan13]

updated
1.palerider
2.evilmonkey
3.ms3guy22(m3f)
4.tvissues(m3f)
5.mrlilguy(but stil on stock turbo and selling car)
6.andre0121(just internals not built yet)
7.ssinstaller(in the process of being rebuilt)
8.Crazyitalian041
9.jcgemt2003
10.skylinemonster

damn already at 10? i know theres somemore out there. iirc wasnt there a rebuilt ms3 up in the northeast awhile back working with cp-e?

[phailerider]

1.palerider
2.evilmonkey
3.ms3guy22(m3f)
4.tvissues(m3f)
5.mrlilguy(but stil on stock turbo and selling car)
6.andre0121(just internals not built yet)
7.ssinstaller(in the process of being rebuilt)
8.Crazyitalian041
9.jcgemt2003
10.skylinemonster
11. cmescoot

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Lex On my build I used Swain ceramic and side skirt coatings on my Wiseco pistons. It's not cheap but well worth it. EDIT: The MS3 engines are noisy due to the high pressure injectors - this should not be confused with piston slap.

ive sort of thought since we removed the baffle that it COULD be the injectors that were hearing, only louder. but everyone immediately said piston slap, so thats what we ran with. but the reality is that basically the motor makes about the exact same noises as a regular ms3 except EVERYTHING feels amped up.

ive seen some setups with the baffler pulled, so it isnt "just" injector noise. this seems like it is something more. but again.... I am not worried here. I just wish i had more people to compare too. 15-20 guys with built motors and not one can tell me what the hell has happened to their knock retard. NOT FUCKING ONE...... crazy. its not cuase i havent talked to a few either. i just havent talked to one with a dashhawk, or someone who can monitor what the ecu does with their timing...lol

if you read this and you are the exception.... please say something. even if its in russian...lol

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by palerider ive sort of thought since we removed the baffle that it IS the injectors that were hearing, only louder. but everyone immediately said piston slap, so thats what we ran with. but the reality is that basically the motor makes about the exact same noises as a regular ms3 except EVERYTHING feels amped up. ive seen some setups with the baffler pulled, so it isnt just injector noise. this is something more. but again.... I am not worried here. I just wish i had more people to compare too. 15-20 guys with built motors and not one can tell me what the hell has happened to their knock retard. NOT FUCKING ONE...... crazy. its not cuase i havent talked to a few either. i just havent talked to one with a dashhawk, or someone who can monitor what the ecu does with their timing...lol if you read this and you are the exception.... please say something. even if its in russian...lol

the rubber insulation under the intake manifold has affect on knock readings
it was a theory at one time but was found to be false

the knock sensor is located below the fuel rail as well which adds additional proof that if the injector noise was in fact causing knock readings, the insulation would have been located between the knock sensor and the rail vs between the intake and fuel rail

[phailerider]

well than what is the purpose of the insulation. what is it insulating?

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by palerider well than what is the purpose of the insulation. what is it insulating?

it's insulating the fuel rail
it's called a fuel vaporizer

it's not there to reduce injector noise for the sake of the knock sensor

[Lex]

The knock sensor should be tuned/filtered such that it is not triggered by the injectors.

When you built the motor, you have placed rods and pistons in that are different in mass, balance, and composition than what the car came with stock. This means that the sound frequencies created by these new parts differ from what the stock knock system is tuned for. This can cause false readings.

Before you throw out the obvious - make sure it is not ACTUALLY knocking.

If it is indeed false knock, you will have to deal with it since you will lose performance and economy with timing being pulled unnecessarily. Furthermore, it is now unable to pull timing when the knock is "real". In other words, the system has to be retuned and this is no small feat. As suggested, try a small, thin piece of insulating rubber or plastic between the sensor and block and tighten the sensor back down. Free rev the engine in neutral and ensure that you get no knock readings. This is the first step in setting up a knock sensor the "home brew" way. The proper way is very expensive and it involves cylinder pressure sensors in each cylinder. That means holes need to be drilled in the head etc ... and sensors that are a grand each. With those types of sensors you'd be able to tune the car for peak power and avoid knock very accurately, but like I said very impractical.

[CaptainKRM]

just spoke with Brian Pauter over at Pauter Machine. we're sending him a factory piston/rod combo and he will be making a forged rod with the tapered end so it will accept a factory piston. this should satisfy the needs and wants of alot of you guys out there.

[ztuner]

knock sensor outputs are filtered by the ecu to listen to a very narrow time duration during each rev. They use the crank angle sensor for that. Furthermore the sensitivity of the sensor is tapered based on rpm / load range. If you are seeing knock counts it IS knock. Thats assuming the DH is looking at the correct filtered output

Harry

[ztuner]

Originally Posted by Lex The knock sensor should be tuned/filtered such that it is not triggered by the injectors. When you built the motor, you have placed rods and pistons in that are different in mass, balance, and composition than what the car came with stock. This means that the sound frequencies created by these new parts differ from what the stock knock system is tuned for. This can cause false readings. Before you throw out the obvious - make sure it is not ACTUALLY knocking. If it is indeed false knock, you will have to deal with it since you will lose performance and economy with timing being pulled unnecessarily. Furthermore, it is now unable to pull timing when the knock is "real". In other words, the system has to be retuned and this is no small feat. As suggested, try a small, thin piece of insulating rubber or plastic between the sensor and block and tighten the sensor back down. Free rev the engine in neutral and ensure that you get no knock readings. This is the first step in setting up a knock sensor the "home brew" way. The proper way is very expensive and it involves cylinder pressure sensors in each cylinder. That means holes need to be drilled in the head etc ... and sensors that are a grand each. With those types of sensors you'd be able to tune the car for peak power and avoid knock very accurately, but like I said very impractical.

you could also run 116 octane to ensure there is no knock physically and then see if knock actually showed up electrically. Thats when you know you have an issue with false knock. Personally i like the idea of stronger rods with stock pistons or get Arias to add more silica to curb noise. Once the rods are stronger you will then loose rod bearings

Harry

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by ztuner Piston slap is indeed a function of piston composition and clearances. Piston slap can be reduced to stock levels on forged pistons by changing the composition of the pistion usually by adding silica. Arias are known to have the best anti slap properties. JE and CP the worst. Adding Silica adds weight and reduces strength slightly but also reduces the expansion coefficient of the material thus allowing closer tolerences to reduce piston slap. Coating the piston skirts allows closer tolerance but imo its a bandaid at best. Another variable that affects piston slap is if the piston has an offset built into it relative to the pin. The offset is supposed to counter the rocking motion of the piston to some extent. If the engine assembler flips the piston you will experience piston slap. Most pistons are marked from the factory but its the assemblers job to verify. When you have a long rod relative to bore this even more of an issue (ms3) The last variable is skirt length. A lot of high performance manufacturers reduce the skirt length to reduce friction and weight. Down side is added noise and wear on the cylinder walls and pistons. I am not sure which of these issues is causing the problem on your built motors but it can be fixed with the correct composition piston, clearance, offset (if it exists) and the correct length skirt. You would need to call the piston manufacturer to discuss the pros and cons of each option. Harry

the OEM piston does in fact have an offset pin

I can't verify that the Arias / CP pistons are manufactured with this same offset

but I can tell you the pistons being made for me have the OEM spec offset pin and skirt length is just shy of OEM
piston top is OEM spec as well

[numbnuts22715]

with stock pistons and pauter rods, will we have any worries about fucking up a stock piston cause of too much power or anything like that?

[ATE BALLER]

It's hard to say. All the blown motors I've seen pictures of have shatered rods, but some of them have shattered pistons too. I haven't seen any with just a shattered piston, but that might because the rod would be bashing against the walls without it. I suppose shattered peices of a rod could cause the piston to fall apart too in those cases, but I guess that would depend on the crank position at the point of failure. At some point the piston won't be able to take any more, but no one will know when until one goes with the pauter rod/stock piston combo, at which point said induvidual would have to do a whole new build unless they're really lucky. I've burnt 3 pistons in my dirt bike w/o fucking up anything else, just because it literally burns through the upper edge of the piston. Never done it in a car though, so...

[ms3guy22]

What this about false knock, or knock in general with a rebuilt engine?
wht i do know is the j&s safeguard is a beautfiul thing. if one was made for the car i'd suck a %$%* to get one!!! I'll never mod a car without one unless of coarse they don't make one for the car. Hence why i don't have one.
Their was one guy who had a svtf, same kit, same tuner who was able to get 100 whp and trqe be being able to retared the knock safely. while the rest of us were blowing this fool was still running strong like the enegizer bunny.

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by Laloosh Whoosh's hardwork WILL blow away what is current available. He wont be the only one going his route, i will follow, so there will be at least 2 lol Randy whats the update on the beast...is she ready to do a full boost run for us? Its like we're all waiting for the main attraction here. The lol pos fights are done, now comes the main event baby.

Actually at least 3 of us.

Whoosh see if you can get a max rpm number from someone for me, the stroke may be our limiting factor. I am getting alot of people that think our heads are good to 8k to 8.5k rpm mildly built.

[CaptainKRM]

Originally Posted by numbnuts22715 with stock pistons and pauter rods, will we have any worries about fucking up a stock piston cause of too much power or anything like that?

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER It's hard to say. All the blown motors I've seen pictures of have shatered rods, but some of them have shattered pistons too. I haven't seen any with just a shattered piston, but that might because the rod would be bashing against the walls without it. I suppose shattered peices of a rod could cause the piston to fall apart too in those cases, but I guess that would depend on the crank position at the point of failure. At some point the piston won't be able to take any more, but no one will know when until one goes with the pauter rod/stock piston combo, at which point said induvidual would have to do a whole new build unless they're really lucky. I've burnt 3 pistons in my dirt bike w/o fucking up anything else, just because it literally burns through the upper edge of the piston. Never done it in a car though, so...

most of the time the rod goes first on these engines. i have seen a few melted pistons, but if the rod holds, your EGT is good and AFR is nice and rich this should not happen. consider what happens to a piston at 6000+ rpm when a rod lets go and tosses it upwards into the valves or rips it against a cylinder wall, etc. if you have a stronger rod however, you don't run into at least those problems.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER It's hard to say. All the blown motors I've seen pictures of have shatered rods, but some of them have shattered pistons too. I haven't seen any with just a shattered piston, but that might because the rod would be bashing against the walls without it. I suppose shattered peices of a rod could cause the piston to fall apart too in those cases, but I guess that would depend on the crank position at the point of failure. At some point the piston won't be able to take any more, but no one will know when until one goes with the pauter rod/stock piston combo, at which point said induvidual would have to do a whole new build unless they're really lucky. I've burnt 3 pistons in my dirt bike w/o fucking up anything else, just because it literally burns through the upper edge of the piston. Never done it in a car though, so...

Anyone consider rod bolts stretching as an issue? How about poor oiling and seizing?

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by palerider 1.palerider 2.evilmonkey 3.ms3guy22(m3f) 4.tvissues(m3f) 5.mrlilguy(but stil on stock turbo and selling car) 6.andre0121(just internals not built yet) 7.ssinstaller(in the process of being rebuilt) 8.Crazyitalian041 9.jcgemt2003 10.skylinemonster 11. cmescoot

Add me to the list. I'll be starting the motor build in the next week or two.
STD bore 9:1 CP psitons w/ Pauter rods on a new stock block.

[CaptainKRM]

Originally Posted by Lex Anyone consider rod bolts stretching as an issue? How about poor oiling and seizing?

i have not seen a motor that has seized up and blown. i have not measured the length of the rod bolt after a failure, but the caps themselves usually do not come apart. 90% of the time the rod physically twists, bends, breaks, snaps either at the center or at the crank, showing extreme force or duress from load it is not physically designed to handle. i have pictures of the cradle itself having snapped in half, while the crank itself remained intact.

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER It's hard to say. All the blown motors I've seen pictures of have shatered rods, but some of them have shattered pistons too. I haven't seen any with just a shattered piston, but that might because the rod would be bashing against the walls without it. I suppose shattered peices of a rod could cause the piston to fall apart too in those cases, but I guess that would depend on the crank position at the point of failure. At some point the piston won't be able to take any more, but no one will know when until one goes with the pauter rod/stock piston combo, at which point said induvidual would have to do a whole new build unless they're really lucky. I've burnt 3 pistons in my dirt bike w/o fucking up anything else, just because it literally burns through the upper edge of the piston. Never done it in a car though, so...

+1

When I overboosted, there was a series of failures. The rod snapped and carved 3 holes in my block and the piston exploded into several pieces. I will be removing the head next week to see what i have to do for that part of the build. I don't think it will be too bad because the spark plug survived the incident.

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by CaptainKRM i have not seen a motor that has seized up and blown. i have not measured the length of the rod bolt after a failure, but the caps themselves usually do not come apart. 90% of the time the rod physically twists, bends, breaks, snaps either at the center or at the crank, showing extreme force or duress from load it is not physically designed to handle. i have pictures of the cradle itself having snapped in half, while the crank itself remained intact.

my rod cap separated from the rod itself lol. Did you see the pics?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark my rod cap separated from the rod itself lol. Did you see the pics?

post them up

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by Lex post them up

All that's left of the piston/rod.

[Lex]

Looks like both bolts sheared off. I am willing to bed that the bolts sheared and then the rod snapped. as it was let loose.

[ATE BALLER]

I cringe everytime I see those pics.

[Lex]

you know - maybe a nice strong ARP set of rod bolts could go a long way as a simple upgrade to these motors.

[phillyb]

Originally Posted by StreetUnitMark All that's left of the piston/rod.

WHAT THE FUCK MARK???