WHP Gain from a new TMIC or FMIC
 

So I see streetunit, ptperformance and some others selling new TMIC. These guys all claim 20WHP, not crank. I seem to be very skeptical that a new TMIC can give 20WHP. Can the stock be that terrible that this is true. If so, it seems like the next best bang for the back after intake and exhaust to better engine efficiency.

These companies show all these dynos, I was wondering if you guys have had personal experience with these and have your own dynos to show for comparison, and/or time slips at the track before and after ICs.

Thanks.,

- Skeptical :261:

its worth it i dont know about 20whp though. it probably depends what other mods you have done already

The first mod I put on my car was a CAI, I didn't notice that much of an improvement over stock, certainly more noise though. My second mod was a ETS TMIC, I wasn't expecting much. I was pleasantly surprised. I never had it dynoed before and after but the butt dyno was very pleased. And to boot, no additional harshness and very easy to do.

I just have a MS CAI & thinking about the TMIC depending on what people say in this thread.

peace out

benefit of a fmic kinda goes with the cobb ap tune that allows the ecu to take advantage of it even more... a local guy with a fmic, intake, mid pipe and bpv dyno'd the same as a car with a full tbe, intake, bpv etc

The ETS does actually gain about 20whp and 20wtq with a super efficient core (.5psi pressure drop or less). The response is insane and it frees up power without added noise.

Jeff at PG

I completely agree! the ets is awsome

Acutally the stock tmic losses about 3.5psi form what Ive heard.

Hopefully that will be me in a few.

How does the ETS pair up with the Cobb AP maps? I have heard people say that the AP is very specific to certain brands of mods. I am in the process of deciding whether to go with Cobb FMIC, CPE-FMIC, or TMIC...

Anyone have their ETS hit the tow of the cowl when they get wheel hop? That's annoying in the rain.

Lex, if the TMIC hits the cowl its because your motor mount is allowing the motor to rock or the install is too far back.

The ETS works well with the TMIC AND FMIC OTS maps.

Jeff at PG

Yeah mine does this too, Just wondering can thgis damage the welds on the ets you think?

I have CS inserts. I also have the 3.5inch version of the ETS.

Any simple solutions?

I'm not replacing all my mounts.

Get a CP-e MM. I went from CS to CP-e, huge difference.

Not much added vibration either.

If your less pressure drop is X, then your car is basically boosting X more.

X= psi.

1 psi = roughly 10 whp and 10 ft/lbs.

So since the ETS/SU/CP-E/Cobble/garage/streetvender/etc
drops anywhere from 2-3 psi less then stock, then there is your gain.

Keep in mind if you used some sort of boost control to set the boost to stock levels, you'd have almost zero gains. It's the psi change that is giving you the performance boost. The intercoolers are acting like a a boost controller that gives you extra boost.

Think of it this way.

(these numbers are made up for example purposes)
Lets say the turbo has to push 18 psi to reach 15psi at the motor, due to the stock TMIC dropping the pressure by 3 psi.

The aftermarket TMIC only drops the pressure by 1 psi...so now the ecu tells the turbo to push 18 psi, and you get 17 psi, instead of it dropping to 15.

What durometer do you have?

I have the same set up as you, I bought mine ets 3.5 from Bioevolve and he trim the rear area, I have over an inch of spacing, so far no problem.

So far my special butt dyno says huge improvements since my ets tmic and inlet install.

with the cs insert, there is still a lot of movement on the engine, I might need to get a new rear mount...my shifting is fine, everything is fine. My brother just pointing out that the engine have so much play and said that is not good, so looking for a good mm.

for the stock tmic to lose 2psi wouldnt it have to leak in order to cause this?

Ok so if we say the Stocker is ~3.5psi

and ETS (Or upgraded TMIC in general) ~1psi

Does it mean that a FMIC should be less than ~1psi? or more? or the same?

So that would make a FMIC only better for heat soak? Just trying to get a clear answer here...

Repost from Intercooler Sticky.

othing prevents heatsoak.

A TMIC will heatsoak fastest, because it sits on top of the engine, with little or no airflow passing through it at a standstill.

An FMIC will heatsoak less, as the intercooler sits in the front bumper, close to the asphault, and a minor amount of air will flow through the FMIC at a stop, due to the radiator fans.

A liquid intercooler will take the longest to heatsoak, due to the volume of water resisting the heat change. The larger the volume, the longer period of time it will take to raise the waters temperature, and thus effect the air cooling.

The big difference between these systems is how quickly the heatsoak leaves. FMIC's will drop BAT's the fastest, as the intercooler has a direct path of ambient air flowing through it. Next up is the TMIC, which has ducting flowing through it via the stock mazda system. Last but not least, is the liquid based intercooler. It's heatloak leaves the slowest, because lets face it, it wasn't really heatsoaking much to begin with. Just like it takes awhile to raise the temperature of water in the system, it also takes some time to cool it back down again. Because of this, the liquid intercooler will tend to have the most stable boost temps of all the configurations. (Especially if you use a resevoir).

Modifying these formulas is water/meth/eth injection.

Water/meth/eth injection occurs prior to the intake manifold, so the mist is directly effecting the charge temp, lowering BAT's rapidly and by a large amount.

Water injection can be added to any of these combinations with the same effect. Drastic reduction of BAT's, cleaning of intake, valvetrain, and carbon deposits, and if combined with other mixes of meth/eth, an increase in octane.

Here is my personal opinion of what setup works best for what use.
(You can add water injection to any of these for added effect)

TMIC or upgraded TMIC

For
Daily driver, occasional autox/strip use.
Stock turbo
Want a sleeper look.
Good for any situation with lots of airflow passing through the ducting. (Excels at speed, sucks in traffic)
Excellent spool time due to minimized piping
Cheap


Bad
Heatsoak, Heatsoak, Heatsoak
Annoying to have to take off for tons of car mods.

FMIC

For
Big turbo applications (You might have to reroute stuff anyway, making TMIC's useless)
Heavy drag strip use/autox (of course that knocks you out of Stock)
You want to look as cool as possible
Excels in rapid BAT lowering (just need some movement and bats start dropping)

Bad
Expensive
May require an upgraded radiator if doing lots of track events
Everyone knows you have an FMIC unless you paint it black (pro/con)
Length of piping can add slight spool penalty (some don't consider this a negative)
At front of car exposes it to rocks, and minor collisions can possibly cripple the car if the intercooler is damaged.

Liquid IC

For
Stable BAT's
Good for all situations
Short piping means quick spool, low pressure drop.
Can supercool (Over 100% efficency) if reservoir is added. (ice, dry ice, redirecting ac lines)

Bad
Price
Complex system (K.I.S.S.)
Similar problems with mounting at the front (exposure to debris, reducing cooling system effectiveness, though much less then with the larger FMICs)

But what about power wise? To keep it on subject...

The pressure drop on most aftermarket TMIC's and FMIC's is close. You'll see very little power difference between them.

In terms of more power based on boost temps...you'll see the lowest boost temps with an FMIC or Liquid/air intercooler...with the most stable boost temps with the liquid I/C.

Of course add meth to any of the above and you'll have nice and low boost temps regardless. :)

You can get a feel for different intercooler cores as far as pressure drop by looking at the charged air dimensions. The intercooler inlet/outlet size or sometimes called the "charge air window". This is the surface area of the tubes for the charge air to enter. With cores from the same manufacturer, just multiply the core height by the thickness as I have done below. ALL the MS3 aftermarket intercoolers are bar & plate so the inlet tubes should be about the same.


For example:

The ETS/SU TMIC dimensions: (bar & plate cores)
14x12x3.25 (charge air dimension = 12x3.25 = 39 sq in)


FMIC dimensions (all bar & plate cores)
CPE = 20x6x3 (charge air dimensions = 6x3 = 18 sq in)
Corksport = 24x6x3.6 (charge air dimension = 6 x 3.6 = 21.6 sq in)
Cobb FMIC = 24x3.5x7.9 (charge air dimension = 7.9 x 3.5 = 27.65 sq in)

So the charged air has less restriction with the larger TMIC's 39 sq in core charged air inlet than any of the FMICs.
41% increase over COBB FMIC
81% increase over corksport
117% increase over CPE

Also you do not have all the piping that would cause further pressure drop.

Another cause of high pressure drop is the type of core. THere are 4 different types of common intercooler cores.

BAR & PLATE (most aftermarket intercoolers)
plate tube & fin (stock interooler)
Extruded tube & fin
Folded tube & fin

Too compare cores from different types (say stock TMIC to ETS TMIC), you must work out the surface area of each tube (allowing for fin/ribs etc.) & count how many tubes in each core. The window controls the pressure drop of the air entering the tube, so if the window is too small for the cfm flow, the pressure drop increases.

Here is a picture of a bar & plate on left
plate tube & fin is on the right

http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/tti01d.JPG

As far as pressure drop the worst is the plate tube & fin. Plate tube & fin tanks, for charge air flow, are a basic disaster with the high capillary turbulence caused by the approx. 240 deg. convoluted walls causing a large static pressure drop. And these have smaller charged air tubes. Of coarse this is the stock one, which along with not much charged inlet area gives alot of pressure drop.

The best as far as pressure drop is the bar & plate. These usually have the charged air tubes directly welded to the ambient fins this will let the air enter the tubes easier as well as having larger air tubes.

As far as cooling capacity well there are two things to consider:

1. Heat sink capacity (bar & plate superior - more mass)
2. Heat exchanging capacity. (tube & fin - better ambient flow)


1. the bar & plates are better than the tube & fins for heat sink capacity simply because it is a more massive core. This is the first way your intercooler will cool the intake charge before it heat soaks. The charge air heat is just transfering into the intercooler metal.

2. the tube and fins are better than the bar and plates for heat exchanging capacity. Meaning it will cool off faster after heat soaked. It is alot easier for the ambient air to make its way around the nice oval shape of the tube & fin type cores with all the extra space between them than for a bar and plate core.


So the HP difference for the TMIC is mostly due to the pressure drop and initial heat sinking capacity of the larger bar & plate core. Once it heat soaks it will be harder to dissipate the heat from the TMIC because the bar and plate does not have as good of heat exchanging capacity.

I've got the ETS 3.5" and the power gain was quite noticable. I haven't had a problem with heat soak thus far. Granted, I installed it in October, so it's only been used in cool/cold temps. I drive mostly on the highway and backroads that keep me moving. I'm not stuck in stop and go city traffic very often. The topmount gets pretty good airflow through the hood ducting, so unless you're sitting at red lights every 200 yards or in bumper to bumper traffic where you're literally at a stand still minutes at a time with very little forward movement for airflow, it's going to stay close to ambient. The big deal breaker for me with a FMIC is the ease of installation/uninstallation. With the way people are getting screwed bringing their cars in to the dealer with mods, I want power mods that I can take off the car in a matter of minutes, not hours.

thanks for all the advice. I'm gonna do ETS TMIC

hey Frequentflyer, do you have any pics of the TMIC installed in your car?

No I don't, but I can take some tomorrow.

cool, thanks man, if you could post some, that'd be cool

any luck with those pics? ;)

I'm pretty sure I help ken convince you to get that tmic.

hm after dp meth and fmic instal and tune i made 40whp more on dyno dynamic so only tmic is not gona be that much of a gain......

Sorry. Haven't had the chance to get out there and take any, but here's an old thread I dug up with pics of someone elses. Pretty much looks the same.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...nk-design.html

I used a dremmel drill on plate that seals it to the ducting under the hood right at the top right agianst the firewall . Oh yeah i also have an awr 88 duro and it did it much much less after the mm install but still on occasion would tap .

Wouldn't the ECU tell the turbo to push 16 psi instead to reach the target of 15psi to the motor?

I've been thinking strongly of getting a TMIC for the summer. I've heard there are 3 choices for an ETS TMIC core size.....3.0, 3.25 (which is out until June), and 3.5. Would the pressure drop be approximately the same for all 3 of these core sizes.

Edit: Per ETS's website, the 3.25 is the only one they still have in production. So I guess that makes my decision a lot easier.

Supposedly the 3.25 is the one to get because the 3.5 is a real tight fit and doesn't seem to add any value. If your fast you can get one in the FS section but you have to be fast.

I was too slow, thanks for the idea...His 3.5" was swooped up. Once I hit 100 posts I'll post a WTB unless I buy new first.

I have the TRZ poly mount and my 3.25 still hits the cowl. It hits especially during hard 1-2 and 2-3 shifting. Granted it isn't hitting a hard as it might have with the stock mount in there, but It's still hitting. I'm taking the shroud out this weekend and will cut off the corner like Bioevolve did. I don't want to deal with a cracked cowl and would rather just cut the inch or so off. easy beezy

I have a SU TMIC and so far so good. Definitely potential 20whp with my mod list and tune...Well worth the money..The factory TMIC is a Flimsy POS !! It was the same Engineer who designed the Factory inlet pipe....Fire Him Now.:AR15firing:

You can see what I gained going from the stock TMIC to a FMIC here:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...66-9wtq-53665/

Basically, if you are already tuned to max out the stock turbo, then the gains will be minimal. The choke line on the right of the turbo's compressor's efficiency curve dictates the power potential.

Here is a good example of the stock intercooler vs the ETS top mount.

http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/i...pmountcomp.jpg

Thanks,

Michael