windage tray vs baffle

[phillyb]

i want pure information, no bullshit please.
i want the vendors to take a back seat to this thread (i expect full cooperation) and i want people's opinions and knowledge based around these two similar products.

currently, ptp offers a windage tray. f2 offers a baffle, as does carpe diem (check the pg section if you don't know what i'm talking about)

what are the advantages of each?
what are the disadvantages, if any of said applications?
what have you used in the past?

please inform me, the uninformed
:phillyb:

[jhershorin]

i personally think ptp's looks the nicest and its competitively priced!!!

plus wassup has gotten REALLY annoying...

[phantom6294]

I haven't used either so can only give a theoretical view on them...

From my understanding, a windage tray is intended to prevent or significantly limit the amount of oil that is caught up in the air vortexes created by the crankshaft spinning at high rpm. A baffle is intended to prevent or significantly limit the oil from 'sloshing' back and forth in the pan, when under high g forces when cornering; the oil gets flung to the opposite end of the oil pan away from the pump and temporarily starves the engine of oil.

I would think the two can be and normally are combined into a single peice, but I don't have any first hand knowledge of the products offered for our engines.

[ATE BALLER]

I'm switching to PTPs from the F2. A baffel is supposed to keep oil near the pick up during a hard turn, however as PTP stated, it would not be able to do this during a long sweeping turn. A windage tray is supposed to stop oil from splattering around. John's will do this, and since it has a good sized edge all the way around, it should prevent oil from climbing up the walls during almost any type of turn, thus keeping the oil where its supposed to be. Just my $0.02.

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by phillyb i want pure information, no bullshit please. i want the vendors to take a back seat to this thread (i expect full cooperation) and i want people's opinions and knowledge based around these two similar products. currently, ptp offers a windage tray. f2 offers a baffle, as does carpe diem (check the pg section if you don't know what i'm talking about) what are the advantages of each? what are the disadvantages, if any of said applications? what have you used in the past? please inform me, the uninformed :phillyb:

The F2 and Carpe Diem look nearly the same except the F2 has rivets and the Carpe has screws and nuts. I don't care for either of those fasteners because of the 1 in a million chance that a 10 cent piece of metal could grenade my $5000 engine. If I had to chose though, I would take the F2 since rivets are probably less likely to come lose.

Baffles are very good in that they serve to keep as much oil as possible around the oil pickup, they are not especially designed to keep oil in the rest of the pan. These are mainly designed to be cheap effective oil control.

The Ptp design is the leading design so far although it has some shortcomings Once the oil is in the pan I have serious reservations about its ability to keep the oil around the pickup as well as the other designs. Second I think the windage screen is far far too open for any real oil control, that screen really needs to be more of a mesh. Fortunately it appears that you can just pull the screen out and replace it with something better.

I also think all the options on the market are priced at least 4x what they are actually worth.

Check this company out for some actual race windage trays which I have used in the past, the link is to their universal one way screen kit which I would put on the PTP kit if I bought it.

Canton Racing Products

[phillyb]

dope. thanks for the information. ate, you say that the two designs should be combined...
a windage tray with a baffle to keep oil near pick up, right?
also the guy above me also eludes that the windage tray will not keep the oil near the pick up, BUT it is the superior design.
what are air vortexes?
oil goes up in there?

[MS6_Auburn_Fan]

06speed6 how would you go about securing that upgraded windage screen?

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by phantom6294 I would think the two can be and normally are combined into a single peice.

Actually that depends, typically on the cheaper race stuff it can be combined. On a actual road race car they have a windage tray and a oil pan with one way oil passages. Once that oil goes through that one way valve it isn't going anywhere except through the pickup. Some pans use a trap door method and some use a ball valve, both are very effective.

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by MS6_Auburn_Fan 06speed6 how would you go about securing that upgraded windage screen?

I dont think PTPs is secured, he is just using the screens own rigidity to hold it in and I am sure it isnt going to go anywhere since I dont think it provides much resistance to oil going through it.

The Canton screen might have to be screwed in, which isnt an exiting prospect.

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I dont think PTPs is secured, he is just using the screens own rigidity to hold it in and I am sure it isnt going to go anywhere since I dont think it provides much resistance to oil going through it. The Canton screen might have to be screwed in, which isnt an exiting prospect.

when I was planning my engine build
the true windage tray I had planned was going to be attached directly to the main cap cradle

[MS6_Auburn_Fan]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I dont think PTPs is secured, he is just using the screens own rigidity to hold it in and I am sure it isnt going to go anywhere since I dont think it provides much resistance to oil going through it. The Canton screen might have to be screwed in, which isnt an exiting prospect.

PTPs is secured with screws.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...6-finally.html

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by whoosh when I was planning my engine build the true windage tray I had planned was going to be attached directly to the main cap cradle

You know Ron, you should make MS6 parts. You could make some money so mod your cute little station wagon.

Thats no joke either.

Of course I could take my own advice too =P

[gsrtype1]

subly bubly sub lol

[atomicms3]

They serve different purposes. The windage tray keeps oil from sloshing up onto the crank, causing parasitic losses, frothing, and slinging of oil up into the engine. The baffles keep the oil from sloshing about the pan and away from the pickup, starving the engine. I consider both to be necessary.

[bioevolve]

Make a two step baffle/windage tray. Full screen top and about 1 inch step down full plate with rampage. There best of both worlds. No screws no rivets no nuts & bolts. Just the two peices held in place by the original stock bolts.
Someone make that and sell for $99

[phillyb]

Originally Posted by atomicms3 They serve different purposes. The windage tray keeps oil from sloshing up onto the crank, causing parasitic losses, frothing, and slinging of oil up into the engine. The baffles keep the oil from sloshing about the pan and away from the pickup, starving the engine. I consider both to be necessary.

can one run both?
maybe not with the designs we have for our car right now, but is that a possibility?
and who will step up to the plate for this?

[phillyb]

Originally Posted by bioevolve Make a two step baffle/windage tray. Full screen top and about 1 inch step down full plate with rampage. There best of both worlds. No screws no rivets no nuts & bolts. Just the two peices held in place by the original stock bolts. Someone make that and sell for $99

hahaha, i posted my above response to joe before bio typed this.
this is exactly what i'm talking about

[bioevolve]

Originally Posted by phillyb hahaha, i posted my above response to joe before bio typed this. this is exactly what i'm talking about

Great minds think alike hehehe.

[dukebrown]

I think everyone has stated the benefits already. This mod is one of the no brainers on design. Sheet steel and tin snips and a drill and a rivit gun and Bam you have your own.

Oh crap. 06Speed6, did not know they sold those. thanks.

[ATE BALLER]

While I realize that the smaller mesh will initially work much better than the "large" holes, you have to realize that those road-race windage trays are changed seasonally on race cars. This is because of build up and eventual blockage, making it no longer functional. With as gunky as our oil gets and as many more miles we put on these cars, I don't think its a good idea to use the fine mesh. PTPs will work for alot longer than that mesh will. That's a gaurantee. Might be wise still to take the pan out after a year or so to see how much build up is on it though.

[wassup61]

The windage tray is to prevent oil from splashing from the sump onto the crank during rapid turns and quick directional changes. A baffle is to keep the oil pickup for the pump submerged in all but the hardest maneuvers.

-Jeff at PG

[bykeryder4life]

ummm,... vendors stay out. wassup- read the op's demands

[SgtP]

i knew someone would chime in lol. good post philly

[phillyb]

he's voicing his opinion and he's honestly the least of my worries.
i'm more concerned with his "boss", ptp, and medieval/ds coming in and saying their product is the best.
this thread has helped a ton so far. thanks guys

[bova]

Originally Posted by bykeryder4life ummm,... vendors stay out. wassup- read the op's demands

um he didn't say anything involving trying to sell the part at all so i dont see a problem with his post.

[wassup61]

Originally Posted by phillyb he's voicing his opinion and he's honestly the least of my worries. i'm more concerned with his "boss", ptp, and medieval/ds coming in and saying their product is the best. this thread has helped a ton so far. thanks guys

My "boss" isnt my boss. I AM protegegarage.com on these forums. Ken is a friend whom I am helping with. Thank you for making the distinction about my post.

I am not trying to sell anything in this thread, just provide information.

-Jeff at PG

[phillyb]

quotation marks are the best

[Deadman]

My f2 will be welded to replace the rivets, i think it will do just fine

[dukebrown]

Hmmm I see. So still better than a solid plate?

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER While I realize that the smaller mesh will initially work much better than the "large" holes, you have to realize that those road-race windage trays are changed seasonally on race cars. This is because of build up and eventual blockage, making it no longer functional. With as gunky as our oil gets and as many more miles we put on these cars, I don't think its a good idea to use the fine mesh. PTPs will work for alot longer than that mesh will. That's a gaurantee. Might be wise still to take the pan out after a year or so to see how much build up is on it though.

[MadOzodi]

Nice post phillyb...I was gonna post something like this but you beat me to it. Great info. here guys!

[babcockxmx]

if you were to purchase the ptp windage tray make sure you can get ahold of john first

[Scatt Nasty]

Originally Posted by babcockxmx if you were to purchase the ptp windage tray make sure you can get ahold of john first

This is true. He might be balls deep into working on making your car faster and more reliable when you need him most.

[danesti]

install of the windage tray looks like a bitch with no cut out for the oil feed thing. the f2 has a cut out for it.

[bykeryder4life]

Originally Posted by phillyb he's voicing his opinion and he's honestly the least of my worries. i'm more concerned with his "boss", ptp, and medieval/ds coming in and saying their product is the best. this thread has helped a ton so far. thanks guys

oops sorry I misunderstood what you meant/wanted. Sorry wassup as well...

[babcockxmx]

you know when dane is drunk posting whe he ends with

[06Speed6]

I am running a good oil and I dont have buildup problems, I dont think the screen would get clogged very quickly at all. It isnt nearly as small as a oil filter and the surface area is much larger and a oil filter can typically go 15k miles or more. Plus most oil pump pickups have a built in screen that is fairly small, if screens got clogged up I dont think they would have one on the oil pump.

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I am running a good oil and I dont have buildup problems, I dont think the screen would get clogged very quickly at all. It isnt nearly as small as a oil filter and the surface area is much larger and a oil filter can typically go 15k miles or more. Plus most oil pump pickups have a built in screen that is fairly small, if screens got clogged up I dont think they would have one on the oil pump.

+1
if anyone has oil sludge or gunk anywhere they have some issues beyond selecting an oil pan baffle/windage tray

[Crossbow]

For anyone installing their own oil control system, or modifying an existing, or just installing one...

It would be realllly good idea to use red loctite on any and all fasteners on the baffle/windage assembly.

Of the two choices, I'm most intrigued by the claims on the ptp unit stopping any and all pcv accumulation (ie, eliminating the need for a catch can). I feel this has a farther reaching benefit then a more dedicated baffling system.

I doubt that the speed3 can create enough g forces to cause a starvation issue in a relatively stock vehicle. Maybe if you race preped the car, welding in a cage, redid the entire suspension (creating your own strut/shock towers), then running r comps and pulling 1.2 g's in a sweeper at vir.

I think most people are installing the baffles, because lets face it, you're deleting the BSD assembly, and the whole oil pan is off, so what the hell, might as well install something else while the shit is all apart. I know thats the main reason I'd get one.

I had roughly 16 hours of track time in my Mazda 6s, which runs a duratec 3.0, an engine widely known for oil starvation issues. My car was stiff as a rock, running 13 kg/mm front springs, and 9 kg/mm rear (with a massive RB rear sway bar, jacking up the overall spring rate effect), on 245/45/16 wide sticky Hankook Ventus Z212's. It was also slammed so low, you had to lift the front to get the jack under it.
Estimated G pulled in the skidpad were around 1.05...that thing was a machine! [Oh, and it ran 5w-20 redline at the track! Ha take that thicker oil guys! Car didn't drink an ounce of oil till I switched it to oh shitty ass mobil1 when I traded it in]

What's my point? The stock baffling on the 6s was shit compared to the stock baffling on the ms3, and i never had a peep of an issue. Add to the fact that most of you are wiping out the BSD assembly, which adds roughly a qt of oil capacity, and I highly doubt 99.5% of you will ever encounter enough lateral g's to cause oil starvation. You'd probably have to flip the car.

I bet guy's running the MS3 at the track are more likely to encounter fuel baffling issues, then oil ones. (ie, running around the track at less then half a tank of gas, causes fueling issues type deal). I know in the 6, if I ever let that sucker get to 1/4 a tank, I couldn't take any of the sweepers without the fuel sloshing away from the pickup. Heck even the STI guys have to run half a tank or more at all times.

[Lvis]

Originally Posted by Crossbow For anyone installing their own oil control system, or modifying an existing, or just installing one... It would be realllly good idea to use red loctite on any and all fasteners on the baffle/windage assembly. Of the two choices, I'm most intrigued by the claims on the ptp unit stopping any and all pcv accumulation (ie, eliminating the need for a catch can). I feel this has a farther reaching benefit then a more dedicated baffling system. I doubt that the speed3 can create enough g forces to cause a starvation issue in a relatively stock vehicle. Maybe if you race preped the car, welding in a cage, redid the entire suspension (creating your own strut/shock towers), then running r comps and pulling 1.2 g's in a sweeper at vir. I think most people are installing the baffles, because lets face it, you're deleting the BSD assembly, and the whole oil pan is off, so what the hell, might as well install something else while the shit is all apart. I know thats the main reason I'd get one. I had roughly 16 hours of track time in my Mazda 6s, which runs a duratec 3.0, an engine widely known for oil starvation issues. My car was stiff as a rock, running 13 kg/mm front springs, and 9 kg/mm rear (with a massive RB rear sway bar, jacking up the overall spring rate effect), on 245/45/16 wide sticky Hankook Ventus Z212's. It was also slammed so low, you had to lift the front to get the jack under it. Estimated G pulled in the skidpad were around 1.05...that thing was a machine! [Oh, and it ran 5w-20 redline at the track! Ha take that thicker oil guys! Car didn't drink an ounce of oil till I switched it to oh shitty ass mobil1 when I traded it in] What's my point? The stock baffling on the 6s was shit compared to the stock baffling on the ms3, and i never had a peep of an issue. Add to the fact that most of you are wiping out the BSD assembly, which adds roughly a qt of oil capacity, and I highly doubt 99.5% of you will ever encounter enough lateral g's to cause oil starvation. You'd probably have to flip the car. I bet guy's running the MS3 at the track are more likely to encounter fuel baffling issues, then oil ones. (ie, running around the track at less then half a tank of gas, causes fueling issues type deal). I know in the 6, if I ever let that sucker get to 1/4 a tank, I couldn't take any of the sweepers without the fuel sloshing away from the pickup. Heck even the STI guys have to run half a tank or more at all times.

very informative ... im leaning towards ptp

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I am running a good oil and I dont have buildup problems, I dont think the screen would get clogged very quickly at all. It isnt nearly as small as a oil filter and the surface area is much larger and a oil filter can typically go 15k miles or more. Plus most oil pump pickups have a built in screen that is fairly small, if screens got clogged up I dont think they would have one on the oil pump.

First off, philly I am just in here for info... not to sell anything.

06speed, the screen will work very well, we had a diamond stripper screen designed for the application but it would fill up very quick with the amount of oil the motor drops on it. The screen design would work if you had an open top (all the way around the pan opening) with a larger surface area for all the oil to hit. The open hole design of the windage tray is to allow the oil back into the motor due to the volume that hits it, going much smaller will only allow it to back up and fill the top of the windage tray with oil rendering it usless.

Hope this helps.