WOT Box/AP FFS and Knock Retard

[Lex]

I've seen several cars let go that had a WOT Box and were using FFS. I have some ideas as to why this can be the case but was wondering what your experiences are using it. Do you get any KR following a flat foot shift using one of these devices?

If you blew up, bent rod, etc, did this happen during a flat foot shift?

I am interested in people that have a WOT Box or are using the AP feature, not the people that are flat foot shifting without any electronic aids.

I came across this as well: WOT Box and Knock - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

I also have heard the AP feature had some issues upon initial release?

Feedback is always welcome.

[JNR5005]

For the sake of statistics- I get KR, and I think I did notice it especially between shifts. I just try not to monitor it lol. Really though, after consulting w/ Cobb, and reading this forum, I know I need to get the colder plugs, and should use octane booster to drive hard w/ the 93 map.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by JNR5005 For the sake of statistics- I get KR, and I think I did notice it especially between shifts. I just try not to monitor it lol. Really though, after consulting w/ Cobb, and reading this forum, I know I need to get the colder plugs, and should use octane booster to drive hard w/ the 93 map.

Does KR happen especially during flat foot shifts?

[JNR5005]

I'm bored I'll go see hold on lol.

[NJSPEED3]

yes kr does happen during ffs! i logged last night and and got a.03 knock during shifts. im using the ap also you go lean for a quick sec i think that may be creating the kr Lex

[Lex]

A 0.3 KR or a 3 KR?

[bast525]

I've been using FFS since Cobb first released it. I perform flat foot shifts I would say every day now. I do monitor KR pretty much all the time, and I am very happy to say that I have NEVER seen KR before, during, or immediately after flat foot shifting. When I have logged it, I noted that fuel richens instantly after letting off the clutch, I dont' have any lean spot after a flat foot shift.

Oddly, the only time I do see KR is for a split second when I let off the gas entirely at the end of the pull.... at the exact same time I bring my foot up, there is a fraction of a second of KR, sometimes pretty high, but since it doesn't make any sense to knock with a closed throttle, I just assume this is driveline noise or something else that I need not be concerned about.

I get more KR when going WOT and doing regular shifts, I still have the problem where the car will run a bit lean immediately after getting back on the throttle after shifting... it's like the ECU is slow at adding the fuel back in, and I do see some KR there sometimes.

[Lex]

It appears that in COBB's implementation both spark and fuel are cut.

I believe the add on WOT BOX just cuts ignition.

Keep the feedback coming.

[JNR5005]

Sorry, I got side tracked and went for a ride in my neighbors ungodly fast vortech s2k on 9psi w/ methanol spray . POS Cobb dongle- every time I go WOT its gets disconnected!!! I even held the damn programmer in my hand. I can tell you I got 6.7 KR pulling out of my parking lot at 4mph though lol.

[bast525]

Lex - yeah during a flat foot shift, for like .2 of a second (one row on the log) the air/fuel pegs lean at 29.95, then by the next cell it is immediately back into the 11:1 range or sometimes even 10:1.

This ECU does not seem to treat fueling as an exact science... even after MUCH tweaking of the fuel tables I never quite seem to get the results I want, or consistent results in general...

[NJSPEED3]

yeah .3 degrees of knock lex and a bit lean for a sec like bast

[jahman]

The first time FFS came out I used it once, got 5.0 held KR at WOT after an FFS shift. Took it off never used it since. I have no idea what the afr was, or boost was because I wasnt data logging.

Severe engine damage in exchange for ffs? No thanks, I'll do without.

Just like bast I will get KR when letting off the gas when going WOT or heavy part throttle. I often wonder wtf this happens.

Also, I will be granny shifting, or shifting normally and every once in a while I'll get high KR counts (5.0-8.0) just as I let out the clutch into the next gear and itll hold for eternity. This is part throttle...if when this happens I floor it, it goes away or if I let off the gas it goes away. I usually get pissed off and floor it though...

[bast525]

really frigging weird... I remember that someone actually blew while flat foot shifting. I dunno man but I logged it a bunch of times and everything looked great, and I do it all the time now. It feels like an NA or an automatic trans car now when I am on it, also it seems to have cured the random grind I would get quickly shifting into 3rd (I assume because the driveline isn't rocking around as much)... I haven't missed a shift into 3rd since FFS came out.

If anything at this point I do think this is the safer way to go because I definitely see more KR after a shift when normal shifting, and I have done logs where I see air/fuel stay very lean for as much as two full seconds after I get back on the throttle after a normal shift (Jahman you have seen me post and talk about this in the shoutbox a LOT). I mean it has held high 12:1 air/fuel after a normal shift at 18 psi boost....

FFS... always down to 11 or even 10:1 soon as I let the clutch out, and never any KR until I let off the throttle.

[superskaterxes]

lex,

i usually do FFS from 2-4th/5th and i usually get some knock (up to 1 or so) in 2nd, then its a little less in third, and usually non existent in 4th. its weird because i expect to have more as the engine heats up but maby the meth spraying works better as its essentially spraying the whole time because im never out of boost? dunno lmk if u need any more help on this.

[H3llfir3]

I use the WOTBox and FFS everyday about 10 or so times. I beat the crap out of my car if you can't already tell lol. The only time my car knocks on a FFS is when the car backfires mid shift and covers both lanes of traffic in a nice black cloud of smoke. The highest I've seen it register during such an instance was 2.8 and then it doesn't knock again except for at part throttle, which the highest I've ever gotten was .7 KR which doesn't even happen all that much.

[Lex]

Good info everyone.

It seems that FFS just results in abrupt loads to the rotating assembly and drivetrain. Sometimes, as ignition/injection is resumed with pressure still in the chambers there can be some uncontrolled combustion (backfire, KR)

[djuosnteisn]

I've said it before, but i'll say it again. I really really think the "lean FFS" issue depends on how the LTFT fueling is setup on the car. Ideally you would like a slightly negative LTFT in the last segment or so, such that the ecu is having to pull fuel to meet the fueling requirements. A local was having the lean FFS issue, and i suggested this solution to him. He modified his maf slightly to make the ecu pull the fuel, and his lean issues disappeared.

As far as knock for me during ffs, never really had an issue. I've got lots of logs if you want them lex.

[AFcadet]

I know about a month ago there was a big hubub about people seeing the lean AFRs with FFS. I assumed this problem was resolved...wat was the reasoning behind it?

[NJSPEED3]

Originally Posted by jahman The first time FFS came out I used it once, got 5.0 held KR at WOT after an FFS shift. Took it off never used it since. I have no idea what the afr was, or boost was because I wasnt data logging. Severe engine damage in exchange for ffs? No thanks, I'll do without. Just like bast I will get KR when letting off the gas when going WOT or heavy part throttle. I often wonder wtf this happens. Also, I will be granny shifting, or shifting normally and every once in a while I'll get high KR counts (5.0-8.0) just as I let out the clutch into the next gear and itll hold for eternity. This is part throttle...if when this happens I floor it, it goes away or if I let off the gas it goes away. I usually get pissed off and floor it though...

I experience the same exact shit dude. Except for the 5 degrees of knock during ffs. i dont see more than .3-.7. but everything else matches up to your discription. Have you experienced the smoke issue and excess oil in the valve cover or breather tube? Im starting to worry that alot of us may have bad compression of some degree like our buddy Cpolly! I had 0.0 kr all the time no matter what before experiencing any smoke problems. Read up on Cpolly car problem. I really dont think you got all this knock from ffs. Although i do agree there is some kr from ffs prob from not being properly tuned. The ecu takes away a bunch of timing and fuel during the shift.

[bast525]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn I've said it before, but i'll say it again. I really really think the "lean FFS" issue depends on how the LTFT fueling is setup on the car. Ideally you would like a slightly negative LTFT in the last segment or so, such that the ecu is having to pull fuel to meet the fueling requirements. A local was having the lean FFS issue, and i suggested this solution to him. He modified his maf slightly to make the ecu pull the fuel, and his lean issues disappeared. As far as knock for me during ffs, never really had an issue. I've got lots of logs if you want them lex.

Hmmm I don't think this theory is correct, as I am currently running the Cobb 'stock style' map, but with FFS enabled. My LTFT's are ALL in the positive numbers, from +3 to +10 (MSCAI). I did several logs last night, some 1st through 4th pulls, 4th only pulls, and 3rd into 4th pulls. On the multi gear pulls I used FFS every time. There was absolutely no lean spot after shifting, even with the high positive LTFT's at WOT (+10). It leans for the fraction of a second that the clutch is in, and then drops right back down to 10:1.

[djuosnteisn]

Hmmm, possibly so. It was the only change that my friend made, and seemed to solve his lean issue. I guess further testing needs to be done. Also, other factors may play a result. Like OL/CL transition times etc. Post up a log if you would, i'd like to see it.

[bast525]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Hmmm, possibly so. It was the only change that my friend made, and seemed to solve his lean issue. I guess further testing needs to be done. Also, other factors may play a result. Like OL/CL transition times etc. Post up a log if you would, i'd like to see it.

I'm at work right now, but will try to remember to post one when I get home. But yeah, this is the supposed 'installed stock' map, the ONLY values I changed were the values I needed to enable FFS. So everything is untouched. But even on my highly modified stage 1 + MSCAI2 91 map, I saw the exact same thing with FFS... absolutely no lean spot after an FFS shift. On that map, my LTFT's are from like +3 to like -3, but yeah I do think my WOT LTFT's were at -2 on that map.

Unfortunately... I still do seem to have a major problem when I do a REGULAR shift... where if I am WOT, then let off the throttle, shift, go back WOT, the air/fuel is way too lean for the first 1-2 seconds after boost comes on... sometimes in the 13:1 range This also happens whether I run the stock map or my modified map, even though I've made extensive changes to the tables on my modded map to make it richen up sooner when the throttle is mashed, and even though my LTFT's and MAF tables seem to be pretty spot on...

I actually feel safter FFS shifting at this point...

[djuosnteisn]

So you do have a "lean issue" with the current map and positive LTFT's? It's just not a FFS issue, more of a normal shift issue?

If you ever get bored, try bumping the maf portion of the curve up slightly, bring your ltft's into the negative, and see if it helps. 13's is scary.

[bast525]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn So you do have a "lean issue" with the current map and positive LTFT's? It's just not a FFS issue, more of a normal shift issue? If you ever get bored, try bumping the maf portion of the curve up slightly, bring your ltft's into the negative, and see if it helps. 13's is scary.

Right... what I'm saying is, even on my heavily tweake stage 1 map, I have an issue with running lean when first going WOT (but NOT after an FFS shift).

On my modded map, the MAF table has been increased overall 9%, which has resulted in LTFT's very close to zero, and yes before I flashed back to the stock style map, my LTFT's at WOT were negative, -2%. I have also made changes to fueling to have it richen up sooner when going WOT and also at lower load values/less throttle/boost. Even with all that, I often still have a lean spot when I first nail the throttle, either from a steady cruise speed, or if I am going WOT, let off, shift, go WOT again (regular shift). It's like the ECU is slow to respond bringing the fuel back up.