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-   -   ZDDP lacking in modern oil (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f10/zddp-lacking-modern-oil-85945/)

Lex 07-14-2011 02:00 PM

ZDDP lacking in modern oil
 
Came across this looking up info for my 944 turbo. It gets complicated fast ... but ZDDP is reduced in the synthetics and modern conventional oils we use unless they are Redline or racing oils. We do have flat tappets (that and the CDFP) and we may see premature wear on bores and rings etc.


Quote:

The main use of ZDDP is in anti-wear additives to lubricants such as greases, gear oils, and motor oils, which contain about 1%. For applications in oils for gasoline engines, zinc and phosphorus emissions could damage catalytic converters and have had their quantity reduced in standard formulations.[3]. Reduced ZDDP oils have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car camshafts and lifters with flat tappets which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces, and in other regions such as big-end/main bearings, and piston rings and pins. Some racing oils such as Valvoline ZR-1, are available in the retail market with the necessary amount of ZDDP. See "external links" in this article. The same ZDDP compounds serve also as corrosion inhibitors and antioxidants.
Discuss!

kmac 07-14-2011 02:57 PM

I use ky in mine so I think I'll be ok.

karl-hungus 07-14-2011 03:19 PM

http://di101.shoppingshadow.com/imag...49x149-0-0.jpg
http://www.eastwood.com/media/catalo...uct/p35510.jpg
http://www.eastwood.com/media/catalo...uct/p39092.jpg

rfinkle2 07-14-2011 03:20 PM

I'm pretty sure I read this is the chemical reduced in Mobil 1 (US spec) recently.

This is exactly why I pm'd you so you could recommend oil to me Lex.

karl-hungus 07-14-2011 03:21 PM

Buy Rislone Oil Supplement with Zinc/ZDDP Treatment 4401 at Advance Auto Parts

Haltech 07-14-2011 03:23 PM

Pennzoil Ultra...

karl-hungus 07-14-2011 03:25 PM

Pennzoil Ultra Q&A - Bob is the Oil Guy


As you might expect we are not able to disclose our formulation secrets. What we can tell you is that Pennzoil Ultra™ contains a unique anti-wear system that is a variant of (ZDDP or ZDTP) Zinc DiThioPhosphate and is designed to protect the engine from wear in different ways under different operating conditions. However, this is only part of our anti-wear componentry.

karl-hungus 07-14-2011 05:01 PM

so are we supposed to use a zddp additive? mongo confused.

Bucker 07-14-2011 05:10 PM

Penz has it, as pointed out above...

karl-hungus 07-14-2011 05:15 PM

penz ultra has something 'similar' but it's not zddp.

Bucker 07-14-2011 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karl hungus (Post 936520)
penz ultra has something 'similar' but it's not zddp.

I think the concept is that it functions the same. I am fairly certain the engine was manufactured knowing that people were going to use the available lubricants in their market. Also of note, this engine has been out for a few years now and people have 100k+ mile motors with many different oils in them.

YZF-R6 07-14-2011 05:46 PM

Lol who gives a shit?? How many of you know someone or yourself have experienced an engine failure directly related to the brand of oil you use???? Probably none! As long as you use the right viscosity you are fine, modern oils are legit. Thats why we have ratings and certifications :439:

karl-hungus 07-14-2011 05:48 PM

i hear you, bucker, but i'm worried i have subjected my engine to premature cam/valvetrain failure. i've only used pp and rotella. is my engine okay?

Reduced ZDDP oils have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car camshafts and lifters with flat tappets which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces, and in other regions such as big-end/main bearings, and piston rings and pins.

Ziggo 07-14-2011 06:02 PM

I recently saw a white sheet put out about this by forced performance basically saying modified motors shouldn't use oils without this stuff. To prove their point they tore down the motor on their shop Evo, took pics,switched thier oil from a 20w-50 racing oil with zzdp to 10w-30 synthetic (I forgot the brand), did a bunch of dyno pulls, tore it back down and took pictures of significant thrust bearing wear.


Zigatapatalka

kmac 07-14-2011 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by karl hungus (Post 936554)
i hear you, bucker, but i'm worried i have subjected my engine to premature cam/valvetrain failure. i've only used pp and rotella. is my engine okay?

Reduced ZDDP oils have been cited as causing damage to, or failure of, classic/collector car camshafts and lifters with flat tappets which undergo very high boundary layer pressures and/or shear forces at their contact faces, and in other regions such as big-end/main bearings, and piston rings and pins.

Your avatar is the funniest thing I've ever seen. Haha,love it.

karl-hungus 07-14-2011 06:19 PM

finding the perfect dog shit avatar is distracting me from my zddp anxiety.

Lex 07-14-2011 07:31 PM

The interesting thing is that the new certifications for oil call for very little to no ZDDP because it messes with emissions equipment.

I have looked quite a bit and I haven't found anything else that coats metal parts inside the engine as well as ZDDP in spite of what Pennzoil claim.

High output engines such as ours see lots of piston ring loading, lots of bearing load, and we have a CDFP running fairly high pressures.

Quite a few people here have compression loss. We also know that our motors are hard on the oil and wash it off the cylinder walls.

ZDDP seems like a good idea to have in vehicles such as ours.

troubled81 07-14-2011 09:10 PM

I use acdelco EOS with every oil change in my cars. I stopped buying synthetic for the malibu,civic and sunfire and went with semi-synthetic with the EOS and all three are running WAY smoother then with full synthetic. It actually is shocking how much quieter the motors get with ZPPD in there.

triplejumper18 07-14-2011 10:06 PM

ZDDP, Flat tappet motors, and catalytic converters - Bob Is The Oil Guy

karl-hungus 07-15-2011 05:11 AM

sounds like rotella has a high phosphorous content, but i'm going to pick up some zddp for peace of mind. no cats = no worries. good work, lex.

I say go with the oils that have high zddp. It is easier and cheaper to replace cats than it is to rebuild an engine. Since it is a pre-OBD engine, you won't get a fault code even if the cats are bad, which they could be already.

Since your car is a 1994, it was designed to work with SH oils, which allowed up to 1200ppm of Phosphorous in 30-weights, and had no limit for 40-weights. It would be good if you could stay close to the 1200 number.
Mobil 1 0w40 has 1000ppm of Phosphorous.
M1 TDT 5w40 has 1100ppm.
M1 15w50 has 1200.
Shell Rotella T6 5w40 has 1200.

rfinkle2 07-15-2011 05:48 AM

So, considering ZDDP is beneficial for our cars (without regard to the emission system), would the additive + an oil with good fuel dilution resistance be best?

What are you guys thinking of using / switching to?

Like many people, I'm currently using Pennzoil Platinum.

karl-hungus 07-15-2011 06:03 AM

i'm sticking with rotella and will likely buy this snake oil ---> ZDDPlus Classic Car Engine Oil Additive - Flat-tappet and High-performance engines

i don't want to add the crap advance is selling. 1 qt is too much.

rodrigo 07-15-2011 06:06 AM

wut?

karl-hungus 07-15-2011 06:12 AM

i'm picking some up on ebay ---> zddp | eBay

Spirry 07-15-2011 06:19 AM

Yeesh

Ziggo 07-15-2011 06:31 AM

Link to forced performance white sheet:

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...otor%20Oil.pdf

rfinkle2 07-15-2011 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziggo (Post 937161)
Link to forced performance white sheet:

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...otor%20Oil.pdf


That is where I got that Mobil 1 reference, but couldn't find it again.

Thanks Ziggo.

karl-hungus 07-15-2011 06:46 AM

i bet the '5w40 turbo diesel' with the high zinc and phosphorus content in the white paper is rotella. regardless, i picked up some zddp 2 oz bottles on ebay for my next oil change.

darth vader 07-15-2011 07:28 AM

Fuck dudes, this is alot of mythology from back in the day when people didn't know how to design in the first place or, modify engines.

This stuff mattered in an old school SBC which took 40 pounds of torque to turn over its stock shitty valvetrain design. Chuck a high lift cam in there and bam, wiped lobes.

Modern engines run closer tolerances and better designs. You can't in a million years compare our "flat tappets" being directly actuated by the cams to the crap pushrod setup in an old SBC. There's just nowhere near the drag. My fuckin' bike has "flat tappets" too, I guess, (caps and shims) and it hits its limiter at 13,750 out of 1 litre.

What's "hard on the oil" in this engine is running it past a bearing journal in the turbo at 1300+ degrees. That goes for any turbo car and ZDDP won't help you there. Just change the oil more frequently and get on with life.

rfinkle2 07-15-2011 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darth vader (Post 937236)
Fuck dudes, this is alot of mythology from back in the day when people didn't know how to design in the first place or, modify engines.

This stuff mattered in an old school SBC which took 40 pounds of torque to turn over its stock shitty valvetrain design. Chuck a high lift cam in there and bam, wiped lobes.

Modern engines run closer tolerances and better designs. You can't in a million years compare our "flat tappets" being directly actuated by the cams to the crap pushrod setup in an old SBC. There's just nowhere near the drag. My fuckin' bike has "flat tappets" too, I guess, (caps and shims) and it hits its limiter at 13,750 out of 1 litre.

What's "hard on the oil" in this engine is running it past a bearing journal in the turbo at 1300+ degrees. That goes for any turbo car and ZDDP won't help you there. Just change the oil more frequently and get on with life.

If you have a moment, and feel that Forced Performance's recommendations are credible, check out the white paper that Ziggo linked to above.

Specifically, this paragraph (thanks again Ziggo):

There were two things different in this test. The first thing was that we changed to Mobil 1 10
the second thing was the result, thrust bearing damage. The thrust bearing was starting to burn around the
edges. The edges of the steel thrust collar and the tips of the steel thrust ramps had both turned blue from
heat and started to smear the metal. Datalogs of the oil temp and pressure showed that both temp and
pressure were virtually the same as with the Brad Penn oil, but the result
Mobil 1 10W-30 engine oil.

Bucker 07-15-2011 07:52 AM


This was one of FP's "approved" oils.

Lex 07-15-2011 08:03 AM

Another very strong consideration in our motors are valve deposits which are heavily dependent on oil choice as it's circulated through the PCV and over the intake valves.

For VW it was such an issue that they have a spec that oils must comply with to be used in their DI engines. 502.00 was their old spec and I believe it was replaced by 504.00. There are lists of approved oils for their DI application to prevent deposits.

Modern oils are much better. However in the compromise with emissions we know that some things are sacrificed and I wanted a conversation around that. Even though our tappets don't see the loads old motors did, there are other metal surfaces that see high loading.

Something I have yet to find is a writeup showing the wear protection from whatever the manufacturers have replaced ZDDP with. Then it would be settled.

Quote from BTOG forum:

Quote:

ILSAC's primary goal is to increase fuel economy and catalyst life as much as possible and oils with GF-4/GF-5 sacrifice wear protection somewhat to achieve these goals. Unfortunately with engine oil, it's always a sacrifice between fuel economy / catalyst life and wear protection and the research focuses on optimizing the best balance between wear protection and fuel economy / catalyst life for modern oils.

YZF-R6 07-15-2011 09:46 AM

Ahh i can see it now.... All of our cars are running excellent now but once this ZDDP business catches on its gonna be like the "fuel pump internal craze" that swept the forum and everyone is going to NEED it. Remember how many genpu's blew-up becuz they didnt upgrade their pumps... I love this forum but sometimes it seems like it breeds paranoia lol.

rfinkle2 07-15-2011 09:53 AM

I'm still looking to see if the Valvoline oil above is vw 504.00 approved. Has anyone been able to find that out yet?

triplejumper18 07-15-2011 10:09 AM

https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/vo...0400_50700.pdf

Volkswagen Oil Standard 504.00 / 507.00 Approved Oils | my-gti.com

Bucker 07-15-2011 10:14 AM

Anyone with oil usage in the RS?

FYI

Lex 07-15-2011 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YZF-R6 (Post 937452)
Ahh i can see it now.... All of our cars are running excellent now but once this ZDDP business catches on its gonna be like the "fuel pump internal craze" that swept the forum and everyone is going to NEED it. Remember how many genpu's blew-up becuz they didnt upgrade their pumps... I love this forum but sometimes it seems like it breeds paranoia lol.

Clearly you didn't even read the OP.

This is not about paranoia. This is about becoming educated. There's a difference.

karl-hungus 07-15-2011 10:22 AM

the good news is zddp is cheaper than internals.


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