ZOOM & KABOOM
 

Sad to say, but another blown engine. Long story short, I was getting a Dizzy Tune by @phate. After several solid polls next thing I know, KABOOM! Phate and I snap our heads back to look at the cloud of black smoke about the same size as the smoke monster from Lost and we both knew I was F'ed! Checked the data logs and everything was on par. @phate will upload the logs for me.


Anyway, Im gonna need some help pulling this block and any how-to's on a rebuild. I will be spending all day and all night reading up on it but quick tips and links will be greatly appreciated. Not to mention prostituting my body to afford this!!

BTW I'm new to the forums and only had the whip for about 6 months.




THANKS!

Damn sorry to hear...hope it works out for you.


Good luck

Well welcome to MSF and I have to say damn man nice introduction..........well good luck with all of that looks like you were already on the right track having phate tune your car. There are a couple build diaries on here, and since you are VIP you can check out all the info, and check the for sale section for things like new K1 rods.

The details:

17cak called me up about a tune last night, mentioning his car was overboosting to ~22psi on the OTS map. We pulled a couple quick MAF cal logs first thing this morning to check trims, and then flashed the base map. With that flash, we set off to pull some full throttle logs.

1st pull pulled kr through the whole range with ~16psi and no timing....back to my place for diag, because that was almost definitely noise induced. Pulled the plugs, gapped them to .028" because they were all >.035", tightened all boost tubes, cleaned the MAF, tightened the TMIC shroud (it was rattling) and off we were again.

Edit: When regapping plugs, we did notice the plugs had no spackling from prior detonation - they looked very good, actually. They were just a little sooty from running rich, as is normal with these cars.

That little maintenance cleaned up all the kr we were seeing. The car was running a little lean at full throttle in the first revision (12.5:1) but boost was only ~17psi tapering to ~15psi. Flowing ~220g/s. No kr over .7°.

Third revision 1st pull: boost was up to ~18psi tapering out to ~15.5psi, still with OTS timing. 1st pull was clean with a couple blips of .35°/.7° kr all the way up to 6400rpm. Fueling was at a nice 11.5:1 after the MAF adjustments from the prior revisions. Car pulled very smoothly.

Third revision 2nd pull: Boost, timing, and AFR's all look well within reason. Flowing ~255g/s on the top end. Right around 6300 is where the engine let go :/ Knock sensor was enabled up to 6700rpm.

I'm attaching both data logs from this final revision, as well as the tune file. Please have a look.

Car history: ~52k miles, OP purchased ~6 months ago as he said. Oil change was not due for another 2,000 miles. Shell 93 Octane (from the same station I get mine).

Car mods: M2 DP w/ HF Cat, Magnaflow CBE, AEM SRI, KMD Internals, TurboSmart BPV, SU RMM, Denso ITV22


Planning to pull the engine next weekend with the help of @silvapain. I'm checking all of my sources to help out Cody as much as I can. I really am sorry to see this happen. The car was pulling beautifully. Hopefully with a tear down and silva's engineer help, we can do a solid failure analysis.

Posts like this are terrifying.

What mods were done to the car?

Damn, sorry to hear that OP. I plan on getting tuned by @phate soon, hopefully with a better outcome. Good luck with the rebuild!

Glad you asked, updated my post.

for some reason my signature isnt showing up.


Cobb AP, M2 DP w/ HF Cat, Magnaflow CBE, AEM SRI, KMD Internals, TurboSmart BPV, SU RMM, Denso ITV22

Nooooo not another speed6 Fml!

LTFTs are at 20.12 right before going full throttle on both logs. That normal?

Car only had ~2 miles on the flash, so they hadn't really settled out. We pulled the trims off of the OTS map and I tweaked the OTS MAF curve based on those. They were ~10% lean on the very low end, and ~4% lean going into the OL transition.

Could have been that a bad bearing just finally let go.

WOT pulls right after MAF cal no good. Got to give the ECU time to learn all the trims. About 50 miles city driving.
Once the ECU knows how to adjust for AFR in OL after settling you can flash a map and do WOT pulls right away as long as you don't change the MAF tables. Everytime you change the MAF calibration you need to give it some time for the ECU to learn how to adjust for fueling for a given airflow.

Im scared now. No more 21psi for me.

Sad news man, I wish you the best of luck.

Subbed to see why it happened..

Just sounds like bad timing. The car sounds like it was acting normally for a TBE, so it was probably on it's dying breath. Was the car modded when you bought it? There's just no telling how it was treated before you got it, and the extra power just may have been enough to push it over.

That sucks so badly dude, but Clint definitely knows his shit. If I could have anyone helping out, he'd be one of the first that I'd pick. GL getting this all sorted, and keep us updated.

A car with 50k miles, there's limitless possibilities as to what could have caused it

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the guy before me just had an aem cai on the car. i took the ride home and took it to the mazda dealership. they looked it over for 3 hours and said everything checked out alright. as i was leaving the mazda tech guy came up to me and said, ya know we do after market parts here if you need anything call me and ill hook it up. so he is the one who installed everything but the tbe

subbed. Almost the same mods as me, almost same mileage. Noted about WOT pulls after MAF calibrations. Had no idea you had to give the ECU time to learn. GL.

WOT is open loop. Would LTFT even matter?

LTFT's aren't used at WOT. If the ECU was hitting AFR targets his MAF cal is fine.


Clint, Looking at Datalog2 I'm a bit concerned with his boost PSI just prior to going WOT, and with how much boost he got at such low WGDC. See attached.

The car calculates it's open loop fueling based on what it's learned in closed loop.

Looks like you got bad fuel pump internal. Your fuel dropped to 1071 PSI at 18PSI of boost. Looks to me like the engine suffered previous damage and finally let go today.

The car was hitting target AFR's on the top end, and was just slightly lean on the bottom end. No kr over .7° was present before the last data log (after we did plugs and tightened things up). Not even in the spool up range, which is where we most often see it.

Hmm, I do see what you're going after, but I kinda doubt that would cause trouble. That would be the same as modulating the throttle on the highway and seeing it build a tiny amount of boost without any wgdc. Seems normal to me. We're talking about building ~3psi between 2500 and 3000 rpm...

Especially with being in the car, I am certain there were no vibrations in either the 1st or 2nd pull prior to the very high rpm event. Cody, do you agree?

Another point of concern in the log is on the very top end - we see a 19psi spike 1 data line after the first kr. Whether the spike was resultant of the engine letting go, or the spike causing issue; I don't think we can tell from the log. Silva, we should have a look at the vac lines in the boost control/wastegate system next week.

Fuel pressure is pure shit on those logs. No KR and didn't go lean though.

Good catch. Fuck, after the first set of logs where fuel pressure was good, I hadn't even checked that again. When we pulled those two logs, I was monitoring kr on the AP, so....

Edit: But the failure was at high rpm where fuel pressure was solid and AFR's were in check...is there any reason to suspect a link here?

Gotta switch computers and I'll attach prior revision data log.

i agree the car was running smoother than keith stone from keystone, always smooth. if it was a problem with the fuel pump internals i dont think kmd will buy me a new motor either way.

i will get the mazda tech guy to come take a look next weekend with us to we can find out for sure

Dang, another KMD failure?

If it had been intermittently losing fuel pressure on WOT pulls, that's most likely the whole issue. How long have the internals been installed? How many miles on them?

I never looked at the logs because I just now got on the computer. I figured that everyone else would figure it out and mention the issues anyway.

In log 2 at 17 seconds into the log, there's a boost spike from 15.7PSI to 19.43PSI. KR was at 5.95. Was that when the boom happened? If so then that's probably when/why the engine gave out.

Yes, but not sure which happened first. There's no increase in wgdc at that point, which would point to a mechanical issue. But, if the engine let go first, it could have just been blowing into the closed end of a tube (so to speak), and spiking as a result.

internals installed by a mazda tech. on jan 28th at 1pm. around 1500 miles on them since.. i waited 500 miles to break them in. attached r some photos from the install, i have lots more but probably irrelevant. what a clean turbo!

good news, @phate guaranteed positive results and said if anything goes bad he will cover all damages done ;)

Have you been monitoring DI pressure for that 1500 miles during any WOT pulls? It could be a bad set of internals or an improper installation. There's really no way of knowing which I guess.

all the pulls i did before were with the tech and they read fine. around 1700 psi, and then he would switch to another live monitor and would check the wgdc, then the boost, then some temp? not sure which one, then the kr, and keep checking each one over and over until we were done with several pulls. the reason i had him come with me was because i was getting a hiccup throughout all the gears. thats y i went to phate to get a SAFE / CONSERVATIVE tune. we both knew i wasnt looking for anything too crazy

Was that on a stock tune or OTS? Sounds like load or boost cut.

Trrims dont adjust during WOT so actually it dont matter... only cruising is adjusted.

OTS, afaik. From what I've learned about the car, it was hitting ~22psi on the OTS map. They're set up to cut around 21psi on the stage 2's, if I'm remembering right, so almost definitely boost limit fuel cut. That's why I started with such low wgdc, lol.

This is how my motor blew up i was going wot and fuel pump seized and boom my internals had scars on them.

Subbing for an out come

was a stage 2 then we switched it to a stage 1 map before the tune

Sounds like a lot of not so little things adding up to the grenaded motor.

OTS + Failed KMD is what's been destroying your engine. The little boost spike during the last WOT pull was probably the last straw that broke the camel's back.

Another note that I'll add to my details post:

When we pulled the ITV22's to check the plug gap, they looked very good with NO spackling. They were just gapped a bit too wide.

Damn dude one hell of an intro...
Welcome to the family...

Good call. Post some macro shot of the plugs would be helpful.

Will do next week. I'm sure lots of pictures will be taken.

Dam man, sorry to hear that. Mine blew not that long ago.

i was dead set on getting these internals too. guess it could be improper installation tho.

In case you guys haven't heard, get Autotechs for fuck's sake. They seem to have less failures, and they back their parts with practically 100% no questions. Much less negative feedback than KMD.

erich is running ptp pump and making 700hp ... just saying i would get a whole pump and not risk your motor

^^ pro tip, gracias senior :D

Yep, that's the first thing I saw when I looked at the logs. I have the stock HPFP and I stay at 1700-1800 whenever I'm at WOT. Seeing that with the KMD internals tells me they shit the bed on him.

What version of the KMD internals are they?

Also, the FP was shit in the first log too. OP was at 17 PSI boost but just 1100 PSI FP. No bueno.

Audi - A3 - 2.0T FSI - Engine - KMD Tuning - 2.0T FSI High Pressure Fuel Pump Kit - KMD Tuning & Engineering

what should my pressure be with the internals?

damn it i hate it when people shit the bed!

It NEEDS to remain solid over 1600psi at WOT, but it's usually closer to 1800psi if they're working properly.

I think at WOT/high boost, you should always be around 1700-1800. That's what @Lex told me to watch for, anything dropping below 1700. You were at 1100 in both logs.

And this thread has reminded me -- I need to do some logging tomorrow LOL. Just to be safe.

I'm blaming it on that God awful silver grill :poke: Dbag towing the car looks like he laughing lol. Probably thinks it's "one of dem dadgom rice burners"

Best of luck man never good to see this happen and another Speed 6 ouch:/ Not saying this is it but everyone ALWAYS check compression before buying a performance based car in general. I'll check mine once a month still. You can never be to careful

When a fuel pump goes bad you'll actually see a rich condition, as you're not getting the atomization you want.
Raw fuel pools on the pistons until things get hot enough to explode.
I blame inadequate fuel pressure.

car has been running really rich lately and has alot of soot on the tips. even the hillbilly that welded on my cat today said something to me. the tow truck driver is one of my customers who does dirt track racing with a mitsu so he knows. charged me half price for the tow and even took home phate now thats service!

i actually said something to phate today how much i hate that grill! i want to paint it. it came with the car and if u remove it there is a huge hole in the grill.



anyway im more than ready to pull this motor i want to do it tomorrow and so does my little brother. i called him and asked him to take a picture after i left and he goes "one step ahead of u already took one, even got the cherry picker out cuz i thought we were pulling this motor today." he is currently rebuilding his small block by himself

You'll always have that soot, it's a byproduct of direct injection. Don't worry, most people here, myself included, have wondered that same thing, LOL.

well shit @Nataphen just drive down :drive: and we can party rock :headbang: tonight and pull the motor out tomorrow like its no big deal!

I would love nothing more than to do that if I was closer. I eat sleep and breathe cars, bro. Some people have some other hobby like sports or poker, something like that, but I don't do anything except cars and beer, usually at the same time.

Phate sent me a text about your car today 17CAK. I'll come down next Saturday and help you and Phate pull that engine.


Tapadatass

sorry to hear that bro...but this is scary to read...i also have about the same upgrades (corksport TMIC is the differance) and just bought the KMD internals 2.1 thinking it will be safer, but guess not...
if you need some labor help let me know, as i only have basic knowledge on this and trying to learn myself...

oyyyyyyyy, that sucks D:

May come and join you guys. The ol' lady is out in the field but she gets back i will talk to her about it.

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have a crazy possible explanation just hear it out......

pooling fuel from failing pump (pools because not at ideal compression) , causes seemed to be rich occurrence, the incorrect gap for spark plugs almost saves this. fixed the afr/gaped spark plugs and started to tune. With extra fuel already in cylinder ecu thinks your fine, however inside combustion chamber runs near dry due to fp failure (1100 psi) with newly correct gaped plugs providing extra spark. Mucho spark with mucho air, no fuel= boom detonation

first thing i would do is pull the plugs, if they weren't roasted black id be surprised.
just a hypothesis, my condolences either way.

Join the club

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Damn that blows man :-( sounds like a number of factors...

Subbed for results...

Sorry to hear OP. subbed.

@phate and I hopefully averted a MS3 from going ka-boom today. Ebay DP... no internals. Don't give him more power than me! :PP:slomo::drive:

OP Im very very sorry for your loss. I know the feeling is gut wrenching.

Phate. Keep your head up bro. I know this has to be tough to swallow but these things happen it seems at the weirdest times. When I blew my motor up in dec 2010 the afrs were low 11s high 10s. Spark blew out just tiny bit and the car loaded up with fuel and then POW. Did you guys feel any cut right before it happened?

Sucks really bad man...Hope everything works out for you man.

I feel for you, OP. Terrible situation. My wishes for a smooth and fast rebuild. Subbed for result.

You had a HFC welded into the M2 (ebay) downpipe? Did you get the cat at the shop that did the welding?

This just made me nervous about my autotech install...I now plan on designating atleast 2-4 hours, and will triple check everything.

I'll come over and lend my support as well. Since you have the mad scientist and the engineer I'll bring beer and we can cry together since we both blew our motors lol :fest30:

Sorry to see this happen - a number of things were going on, overboosting with OTS map and intermittent fuel pressure from when the internals were installed caused a detonation event and probably several even before this final one.

I've seen quite a few cars blow with low fuel pressure and seemingly fine AFRs. At low fuel pressures the atomization is likely poor with less of the actual fuel being part of combustion but still registering on the WBO2.

Seems like the car will come out stronger and better setup in the end.

PSA: If you perform any modifications keep an eye on fuel pressure - it's a lifeline for this car. Even if you're tuned and with internals, it's still something to check now and again - especially if you're noticing any hesitation.

OP, if your engine had to go then you are lucky to have Phate and crew around to help with the rebuild/swap, could not be in better hands. It seems we have had more 6's blow lately than 3's. The 6's are earlier models and I recall that the 2007 MS3's were blowing more often than other years.

No i ordered the cat from magnaflow. it was just a HFC nothing special. the same guy that did my cbe did my cat. we started up the car found a leak and re-welded the cat. then he checked the rest of the exhaust and found no leaks.

i think everyone is right, running a week on the crappy ots map mixed with bad internals did the trick. i did notice before the ap was installed, one day i was getting on the interstate and it felt like my car threw out an anchor. after that after time i got over 5000 rpms i had the same feeling. so i bought the ap thinking it would help, and then i no longer noticed it, only the hiccup.

UPDATE: got a call from the tech and he wanted to go take a look today. popped the hood and found 2 holes in the block. atleast with these new vents the car should run cooler!


here r two pics of the same hole. both under cylinder 4 on the right side about the same size

Sorry for your loss OP, good luck with the rebuild.

Stuff like this makes me worry...my car at WOT continually knocks, I've seen 7-8 on the Dashhawk and I can hear the pings. Doesn't always happen, but it happens enough that I'm pretty careful when I go for it. I get knocking at partial throttle too in high load situations. But, when I log with the Dahhawk the boost, AFR and fuel pressure look normal, no spikes or anything even when it knocks. This was the way it was stock, and all I've added is a SRI, TIP and step colder plugs, and the car didn't look like it had any mods done when I bought it and I haven't found anything yet. I'm just waiting for the engine to decide to blow one day.

ANy vibes in the clutch pedal?

Seriously, if it's knocking so much you can hear it, stop going WOT and get it looked at.

PTP

Butthis really blows

Sounds like you could really use a tune. The stock tune is very aggressive and still doesn't deliver great power - so it's aggressive in the wrong ways you can say.

Sorry for your loss, Man. These things never come easy.

To this man you should listen, paduan.

OP: I've attached a log from a 3rd gear pull I did today. Note how even with the OEM HPFP, Fuel Pressure remains at 1600+ through the entire pull. Anything less is bad ju-ju. I'm a total noob to this tuning shit, but that much at least Lex has taught me. He is my Obi-Wan.

I was thinking about KMDs, since I can get a really good deal on them, but not so sure after all these failures. Still, at this elevation, the stock HPFP is doing just fine. For now. :)

do u guys think kmd should atleast replace my internals for free?

Take them out carefully and inspect. You might see the issue with the naked eye. Write a nice letter, supply a datalog, and show pictures. They will probably replace them - just state your case clearly and provide evidence.

This scares the shit out of me. Reminds me that my car is first and foremost my daily driver. I look forward to the day that I have a daily driver that is different from my "have fun car".

And remember, you get more bees with sugar than with vinigar.
Suck enough cock and you might get a new motor out of them (doubtful).

This is indeed doubtful but at their fairly high rate of failure if you're very nice about it they might do... I dunno something for you. Entrusting your entire engine to something so tiny is a big deal.

Very doubtful, since they still don't rate those for our platform. Just for VW 2.0s.

thanks alot fellas. and yeah this is my daily driver too.. not only that, but my first investment after college. i have a lot of blood and sweat dedicated to this vehicle (mainly the dp) and now im stuck driving my grandmas buick. HOLLA

No vibrations in the clutch pedal. And, I have taken it in to be looked at, complete with data logs off the Dashhawk plotted out...and, of course, I couldn't get it to reproduce the knock despite everything I tried, and they just shrugged off the plots. Did it perfectly when I hit the highway on the way home, as is usually the case when trying to show the dealer something. :pat: So, I gave in...I have an AP that I should get around to installing and then see if I can work out what happens and tune around it so it quits knocking so much, or just be ready for it to blow and build a motor.

This reminds me that it's time to pull the plugs and check them, maybe they will show something finally (never have before though). I really do wonder...everyone around here talks about how their engine knocked and blew, and mine just keeps on going. I figure it will survive until the warranty is up in October. :biggrin:

dido on the cock sucking, got me a new motor from mazda.

sorry to hear about the car op. while you have your motor out you can take out the front grille as well. lol.

Hopefully you will get it back up and running soon..

Speaking of full pumps. I have a PTP fuel pump going for over 40K miles and it is still pumping out 1800-1900 psi :)

Just a thought.

the grill adds 20 hp.. somethin u would know nothin about!!!!

Now I'm wondering how much time or how many pulls it takes for the damage to appear when the FRP drops at WOT?

lol. you got me there.

I personally think that boost spike happens after the destruction has begun, and is either some sort of back pressure or some sort of blockage cause a higher reading at the MAP sensor. If someone see's a flaw this possibility let me know.


I hate thread jacking, do you have a thread on any of this? If you are getting audible KR while WOT, don't go WOT. Don't just wait for your engine to blow, unless you just have money sitting around that you want to blow, in which case why not just rebuild it now? The PT KR you are getting, is that while cruising on the highway?

Very possible. This is what Phate said in a previous post as well, and we see a knock right before the boost spike. So that means the spike is a result of some other issue. What caused that knock prior to the spike we don't know, but our best guess at this point is probably the fuel pump.

I think in order for us to confirm whether or not the fuel pump cause the engine blow is to look at the spark plug. Because previous knocks caused by low FP pressure would show up on the spark plugs. Phate said the spark plug looks fine when he pulled it out prior to the engine blow, but i think it's worth a closer look though. WOT knock appear at the base ceramic of the center electrode, which isn't easily spotted unless we intentionally look for it.

Yeah, I checked out the plugs under my dual 1k watt halogens when we had them out, haha. I am positive there wasn't any spackling. I am also positive there wasn't any audible detonation prior to the event. I've heard detonation in my own MS3 (and other cars) as a result of bad gas and extreme BAT's, so I'm familiar with the sound.

sorry to hear OP! subbed for results as well

I think I put a thread up a year or so ago with the plots, don't recall for sure.

It's not all the time, and it doesn't just happen at WOT. If I'm on the highway, I'll give it a bit of gas to make a pass and have it knock to 7+ with audible pinging. When I got a log on that one time, I saw that the boost and TP had jumped up as if I had floored it when I knew I hadn't. At WOT, I don't hear the pings, but I'll see the 7+ KR. I also see low KR just tooling around town, but I think that's not real.

It's just honestly strange, because everything runs perfectly fine except for this issue, and that happens intermittently enough that I can't really nail down the exact conditions to reproduce it. If it wasn't for the pings I hear I'd think the sensor was faulty or picking something up...maybe the pings aren't detonation but something else. It would be nice to get a video of it.....

Fuel quality is HUGE in these cars - that's my first thought for your case. If you can revive your thread and link us here, as to not derail this thread, we could revisit.