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 Old 01-15-2013, 10:44 AM   #1
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Default Lets Talk About Head Studs

so recently we have seen a few people lifting heads and ive been debating the fact of going back to the ARP2000 studs i have now and switching to the L19 but they are retartedly expensive at ~$500.

@SPEED6 KILLAH; found some h11 studs from a1 for ~$380 which carry the same strength and are alot cheaper. Does anyone any any experience with these?
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 Old 01-15-2013, 10:57 AM   #2
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Just got off the phone with arp. I asked them what they think about 25-28 psi setups. He said they are bound to fail at some point and will likely stretch. That boost is a lot for a 10 mm stud. I asked what he thought would be a good amount of boost to run these. 15 is what he came up with.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 11:00 AM   #3
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ARP laughed at the idea of using anything more than the ARP2000 material for upwards of 6-700hp in a 4 cylinder when I called them. They thought unless it was a nitrous engine, they would be fine.

My machinist thinks some of the folks that pushed water didn't have the surfaces machined properly. They have to be dead flat and significantly smoother than a standard finish. Not something every shop can do.

@Tomas; was going to do some bolt and stud testing. The theory is that ARP's tightening instructions (specific torque value) are not accurate or proper, and may not be producing the same clamping force as our TTY bolts. [Sounds familiar, right?]

My machinist/engine builder, who builds everything from blown alky engines making 2500hp, all the way down to single cylinder diesels was saying some guys actually go down in size on head studs. They do it because they need the port work to extend further than the casting will allow, and 3/8 stud works just fine for their endurance engines.

Lots of anecdotal evidence, but those are the issues I see. Hopefully Tomas will be able to knock that stuff out sooner, rather than later. We'll have definitive evidence at that point.

Did anyone who "lifted a head" measure the studs after it happened? I'd be curious to see if they weren't stretched (not torqued enough) or if they were stretched beyond ARP limits. The latter would indicate either too much torque, or the head actually may have lifted. Knowing torque procedure would give some great insight.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 11:00 AM   #4
 
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Hmm I thought we had a thread somewhere where gear heads were discussing drilling and retapping for larger studs.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 11:02 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by dantes5823 View Post
Just got off the phone with arp. I asked them what they think about 25-28 psi setups. He said they are bound to fail at some point and will likely stretch. That boost is a lot for a 10 mm stud. I asked what he thought would be a good amount of boost to run these. 15 is what he came up with.
I loathe ARP for this reason alone. They are so damn inconsistent in what they tell people.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 11:10 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
I loathe ARP for this reason alone. They are so damn inconsistent in what they tell people.
High hp cars are on 7/16 head studs. You know what we use? @SPEED6 KILLAH;
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 Old 01-15-2013, 11:16 AM   #7
 
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I know on DSM tuners there is a thread where they discuss using 1/2 inch studs as well IIRC.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 11:16 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by dantes5823 View Post
High hp cars are on 7/16 head studs. You know what we use?
Yep. I made the decision to stick with stock size rather than chase down a bigger stud and machine everything. If she pushes water, I'll reconsider that decision
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 Old 01-15-2013, 11:24 AM   #9
 
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I WANT BETTER STUDS FOR PEACE OF MIND. I do not want to have to do this shit again.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 11:31 AM   #10
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Has anyone who's lifted the head done so on the oem studs with oem torquing procedure?
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 Old 01-15-2013, 11:35 AM   #11
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I followed OEM torque procedure on regular ARPs with the larger washers/nuts as provided by Pablo. the washers/nuts are ARP, and the biggest that can fit without machining.

26psi.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 12:00 PM   #12
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I know @Tomas; is a fan of the OEM studs and their shoulder size.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 12:02 PM   #13
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FWIW i needed an impact gun to get the OEM ones out when i was taking apart my motor lol
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 Old 01-15-2013, 12:08 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
I know Tomas is a fan of the OEM studs and their shoulder size.
Yeah, I think we came to the conclusion that the larger nuts don't really aid in load distribution through the head. I used the Cosworth branded head studs, which I believe are rebranded ARP2000's, and they used the same diameter nut/washer as the bolts.




Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
FWIW i needed an impact gun to get the OEM ones out when i was taking apart my motor lol
Yeah, those things are tight as hell. My 4' breaker bar was necessary to crack them loose. I don't remember: does the engine build manual call for any lube on the threads when they're tightened down?
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 Old 01-15-2013, 12:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by chimmike View Post
I followed OEM torque procedure on regular ARPs with the larger washers/nuts as provided by Pablo. the washers/nuts are ARP, and the biggest that can fit without machining.

26psi.
I wouldn't have advised you follow the oem tty procedure without knowing the ARP studs are the same material/yield strength as oem.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 12:30 PM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Yeah, those things are tight as hell. My 4' breaker bar was necessary to crack them loose. I don't remember: does the engine build manual call for any lube on the threads when they're tightened down?
I think that some engines call for some engine oil on the threads, but I'm not sure about the DISI specifically.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 12:35 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by boost_addict View Post
I think that some engines call for some engine oil on the threads, but I'm not sure about the DISI specifically.
a quick skim doesent say either way
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 Old 01-15-2013, 12:49 PM   #18
 
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I have extensively looked into this head stud concern for a little over 9 months now & after evaluating the situation & exhausting a few leads, i beleive that a possible solution is now a reality. Pending a few small details, i will be posting the solution very soon.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 02:43 PM   #19
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Does it involve torquing with an impact gun?
Because mine is not up to the task.
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 Old 01-15-2013, 09:21 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by BobtailedSnail View Post
Hmm I thought we had a thread somewhere where gear heads were discussing drilling and retapping for larger studs.
That was me, I wanted to time-cert my block and run 1/2" studs but thats a $1000 project.

I personally think custom age 625s would be fine and iirc they are cheaper than L19s
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 Old 01-16-2013, 06:25 AM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by 06Speed6 View Post
That was me, I wanted to time-cert my block and run 1/2" studs but thats a $1000 project.

I personally think custom age 625s would be fine and iirc they are cheaper than L19s
If im not mistaken, the only difference between the custom age 625s and the H11 the corrosion resistance of the 625s. But then the L19s are the same as the H11s but ARP renamed them and now calls them L19s.

So pay a shit ton for L19s and waste your money when you could have purchased the H11s,

OR,

As he said, stick with the 625s and be better than both of them


625>H11>L19
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 Old 01-20-2013, 01:30 AM   #22
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Late to the party, but I need these asap. Sign me up, tell me who to pay and if I need to wear gloves when installing or not.

Might as well throw in the discussion of what PTP's were made of. I've heard rumors they were possibly L19's or H11's as well as having the larger nuts, but no concrete evidence. He had a recent price drop and as much as I hate the guy, if they are either said material it is a source for them right now.
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 Old 01-22-2013, 04:19 AM   #23
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i need them as bad as you!!!!!!

a bunch of sets are being made right now AFAIK but im not sure what the lead time is on them.
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 Old 01-24-2013, 07:47 PM   #24
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Is anyone else interested in these H11 studs?
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Originally Posted by jmhinkle View Post
Late to the party, but I need these asap. Sign me up, tell me who to pay and if I need to wear gloves when installing or not.

Might as well throw in the discussion of what PTP's were made of. I've heard rumors they were possibly L19's or H11's as well as having the larger nuts, but no concrete evidence. He had a recent price drop and as much as I hate the guy, if they are either said material it is a source for them right now.
I have PTP head studs on my engine. I have no proof, but they didn't look like anything more than regular ARP2000's with larger nuts. Unfortunately they didn't come with any instructions or documentation at all though.


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 Old 01-24-2013, 08:47 PM   #26
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I believe that is all they were. They were too cheap for H11's.
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 Old 01-24-2013, 08:51 PM   #27
 
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Originally Posted by jmhinkle View Post
I believe that is all they were. They were too cheap for H11's.
... And too expensive for 2000's.


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 Old 01-24-2013, 08:58 PM   #28
 
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I will say this in every thread it gets brought up, till I'm blue in the face so nobody else gets fucked by PTP.

PTP "CUSTOM HEADSTUD KITS" ARE ARP2000's.

If you get ripped off and buy them, at leeeaast please tq them to ARP2000 specs and NOT the 90lbs faggot ass John calls for.

Ask me how I know...
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 Old 01-24-2013, 09:03 PM   #29
 
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Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH View Post
I have extensively looked into this head stud concern for a little over 9 months now & after evaluating the situation & exhausting a few leads, i beleive that a possible solution is now a reality. Pending a few small details, i will be posting the solution very soon.
Really can't wait to hear more on this since its the only thing that's got me slightly worried about keepin the head on over 500whp.
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 Old 02-06-2013, 02:24 PM   #30
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Out of curiosity, what are the specs on the OEM fasteners? Have we seen failures with these?

Also was the root cause of the failure identified? Did the ARPs stretch? Was it the shoulder size on the nut? Improper torque?

If the root cause is not identified then throwing a stronger stud on there is not necessarily addressing the problem.
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 Old 02-06-2013, 02:31 PM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Out of curiosity, what are the specs on the OEM fasteners? Have we seen failures with these?

Also was the root cause of the failure identified? Did the ARPs stretch? Was it the shoulder size on the nut? Improper torque?

If the root cause is not identified then throwing a stronger stud on there is not necessarily addressing the problem.
@SPEED6 KILLAH; is sending some out to have them tested, I believe. So we should know more about the strength and material on the OEM headbolts soon.
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 Old 02-06-2013, 05:28 PM   #32
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I also asked if anyone has ever lifted the head off the oem studs.
No one answered.
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 Old 02-06-2013, 05:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Out of curiosity, what are the specs on the OEM fasteners? Have we seen failures with these?

Also was the root cause of the failure identified? Did the ARPs stretch? Was it the shoulder size on the nut? Improper torque?

If the root cause is not identified then throwing a stronger stud on there is not necessarily addressing the problem.

no one but @cld12pk2go; is running tons of whp on the stock studs but thats just 1 case.

unless you measured the ARP's beforehand you cant tell if they stretched because their quality control is garbage.


the root cause is ARP2000 are not rated for the kind of cyl pressure we are requesting from them. Call them up and ask and they will tell you.
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 Old 02-06-2013, 07:14 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
no one but @cld12pk2go; is running tons of whp on the stock studs but thats just 1 case.

unless you measured the ARP's beforehand you cant tell if they stretched because their quality control is garbage.


the root cause is ARP2000 are not rated for the kind of cyl pressure we are requesting from them. Call them up and ask and they will tell you.
You can't call a root cause without any data to back it up. You work in the engineering field correct? - you should know this. You can call it a hypothesis, but not a root cause.

How many people have lifted heads with built motors and ARP studs? Is everyone with a built motor using ARP studs? Did you guys try and measure the studs new to see variance in size? What about after they were pulled?

There are a good number of cars in the 400wtq and whp level on OEM fasteners.
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 Old 02-07-2013, 05:42 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
You can't call a root cause without any data to back it up. You work in the engineering field correct? - you should know this. You can call it a hypothesis, but not a root cause.

How many people have lifted heads with built motors and ARP studs? Is everyone with a built motor using ARP studs? Did you guys try and measure the studs new to see variance in size? What about after they were pulled?

There are a good number of cars in the 400wtq and whp level on OEM fasteners.
so far i know of at least 3 off the top of my head (myself, will, drew) who all were making between 450 and 510whp when it happened.

i only know maby 1 or 2 people with the L19 ARP's and the rest are all ARP2000's because no other studs exist on the market. The ARP2000's are also designed for the I4 Mazda3/6 and not even specifically for the mazdaspeed, it just so happens they share the same stud as us.

We also only have a 10mm stud which is insanely rare in the performance world. Evo, subi, SRT4, BMW, ford, all have 11mm studs stock. An 11mm stud is already 25% stronger (read higher tensile strength) then a 10mm stud with all other things equal. Thats why you never see head stud problems on those platforms because people just upgrade the material of their studs (aka to H11) and they have no problem holding tons of power.



pablo did try and measure the length of the studs afterwards, but they are considered stretched at like .0005" from their original size. There was enough variance in the length that you couldent tell if any of them had been stretched because they were so different. This is just poor quality control on the part of ARP. Now that people have recognized this failure we know to start measuring studs BEFORE they go in so we can track the problems related to head lifting failures.


if your not trying to break ~450whp the ARP2000's will be just fine. As soon as you cross that border your going to be in unknown territory. there arent enough cars over this HP level to determine the absolute breaking point but the few people who have crossed this line and who CONSISTENTLY drive their cars hard are the ones seeing failures.

you could prob go years on the ARP2000's making 500whp if you only went WOT once a month. but for those of us who are going to the track regularly, and taking WOT logs almost daily, its a whole different world when it comes to head bolt strength.


its just like the stock rods, its not if, its when........
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 Old 02-07-2013, 05:52 AM   #36
 
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
so far i know of at least 3 off the top of my head (myself, will, drew) who all were making between 450 and 510whp when it happened.

i only know maby 1 or 2 people with the L19 ARP's and the rest are all ARP2000's because no other studs exist on the market. The ARP2000's are also designed for the I4 Mazda3/6 and not even specifically for the mazdaspeed, it just so happens they share the same stud as us.

We also only have a 10mm stud which is insanely rare in the performance world. Evo, subi, SRT4, BMW, ford, all have 11mm studs stock. An 11mm stud is already 25% stronger (read higher tensile strength) then a 10mm stud with all other things equal. Thats why you never see head stud problems on those platforms because people just upgrade the material of their studs (aka to H11) and they have no problem holding tons of power.



pablo did try and measure the length of the studs afterwards, but they are considered stretched at like .0005" from their original size. There was enough variance in the length that you couldent tell if any of them had been stretched because they were so different. This is just poor quality control on the part of ARP. Now that people have recognized this failure we know to start measuring studs BEFORE they go in so we can track the problems related to head lifting failures.


if your not trying to break ~450whp the ARP2000's will be just fine. As soon as you cross that border your going to be in unknown territory. there arent enough cars over this HP level to determine the absolute breaking point but the few people who have crossed this line and who CONSISTENTLY drive their cars hard are the ones seeing failures.

you could prob go years on the ARP2000's making 500whp if you only went WOT once a month. but for those of us who are going to the track regularly, and taking WOT logs almost daily, its a whole different world when it comes to head bolt strength.


its just like the stock rods, its not if, its when........
So i take it there are alot of 11mm studs out on the market.
if you are already going for that much power you are obviously having a decent amount of machine work done to the motor. Why not just machine the 10mm stuck studs to 11mm. Then you can buy studs for one of the other many platforms running 11mm studs.

Granted lengths will be different, but if you know what platform you want to buy from you could possible my the stud hole a bit deeper if there is room to do so.

Just a thought I am not as well versed as almost everyone in this thread just thought i would through that out there
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 Old 02-07-2013, 06:09 AM   #37
 
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To measure the length accurately you could take new studs and have the ends ground on a surface grinder at a machine shop. so the ends are nice and flat so you have a nice surface to take measurements from. I am only talking grinding enough to clean up the end.. it wouldn't affect the stud in any way..strength wise
maybe grind them all the same length. measure before and after.
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 Old 02-07-2013, 06:15 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Deldran View Post
So i take it there are alot of 11mm studs out on the market.
if you are already going for that much power you are obviously having a decent amount of machine work done to the motor. Why not just machine the 10mm stuck studs to 11mm. Then you can buy studs for one of the other many platforms running 11mm studs.

Granted lengths will be different, but if you know what platform you want to buy from you could possible my the stud hole a bit deeper if there is room to do so.

Just a thought I am not as well versed as almost everyone in this thread just thought i would through that out there
One can probably do that now. But it's all about cost. And then you have people like me who's already up and running and dropping the block off to get machined isn't an option. Swapping head studs is much easier. Granted still have to pay for labor but it's not labor plus machining plus downtime. And the price difference of the studs isn't a whole lot more.
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 Old 02-07-2013, 06:21 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Deldran View Post
So i take it there are alot of 11mm studs out on the market.
if you are already going for that much power you are obviously having a decent amount of machine work done to the motor. Why not just machine the 10mm stuck studs to 11mm. Then you can buy studs for one of the other many platforms running 11mm studs.

Granted lengths will be different, but if you know what platform you want to buy from you could possible my the stud hole a bit deeper if there is room to do so.

Just a thought I am not as well versed as almost everyone in this thread just thought i would through that out there
So old DSM's are also on 10mm if I remember correctly. One issue they were seeing with upgrading to 11mm is that some people have pulled them out of the block at that point. It can be a possible weak point if we were to go that route. My issue with the ARP2000's is that they were designed for the original MZR and grandfathered to us. I don't think there was any form of proper torque calibration done for our motor. 60lb/ft is awfully low. I believe the stock bolt are far above that with the stock procedure.
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Originally Posted by dantes5823 View Post
One can probably do that now. But it's all about cost. And then you have people like me who's already up and running and dropping the block off to get machined isn't an option. Swapping head studs is much easier. Granted still have to pay for labor but it's not labor plus machining plus downtime. And the price difference of the studs isn't a whole lot more.
well of course in that situation, i am really anal about trying to plan everything for the future so thats the angle i was coming from. If you already have a built motor then i agree would be alot easier just to change studs.

I agree with @Lex; though would be nice to get some data on how much the stock studs can take.
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