Planning a rebuild. Need some tips/guidelines.

[paveltol]

Hello everyone! I am facing an idea of rebuilding my engine and going meth. The engine runs well so far but like most of the members here I am looking for more power. I have a set of brand new Carrillos and would like to order the correct size of pistons for the stock block.
So here are some questions:
1. Does anyone run forged internals (pistons+rods) with stock (not sleeved) engine block? How many miles and what is the power level?
2. Is there a necessity of honing the block for the new pistons?
3. Should I order the stock bore pistons or should I order them for less bore taking into consideration the different thermal expansion index of forged material?
4. My turbo is BNR S3 and I like the car's driveability in the city traffic. Should I stay at the stock compression level?
5. Is ceramic coating of the pictons really that effective in terms of anti-friction function and/or thermal barrier?
6. What parts (obviously excluding all the gaskets and selas) should be replaced with the new ones?

Any useful rebuild tips will be appreciated as well.
Thank you in advance.

P.S. If you can offer me some parts, useful for my rebuild, I am open for negotiation)

[DiGi Faggot]

Our engine blocks are sleeved stock.

Yes, You need to hone to ensure the rings seat.

You're plan. You can bore or not. You only need too if your sleeves are scraped bad.

Dont ever lower compression.

[paveltol]

Originally Posted by DiGi Faggot Our engine blocks are sleeved stock. Yes, You need to hone to ensure the rings seat. You're plan. You can bore or not. You only need too if your sleeves are scraped bad. Dont ever lower compression.

What is wrong with lowering the compression?

One more question: has anyone tried running 1mm bigger intake/exhaust valves?

[kritz]

Dude if you want more power get a bigger turbo. Forged rods insure strength when you start turning up the power stock valve size is fine just port and polish the head and intake manifold.
What is the number you are looking to produce?

[paveltol]

Originally Posted by kritz Dude if you want more power get a bigger turbo. Forged rods insure strength when you start turning up the power stock valve size is fine just port and polish the head and intake manifold. What is the number you are looking to produce?

I am not looking for 400+ hp with this turbo - I just need more than I have now with stock block and very conservative tune for 91 RON shitty local petrol. To be specific, ~360 hp with meth will be great for me.
Probably, some time later I'll go 3071 or BorgWarner EFR (which looks more like some miracle unicorn to me now), it will all depend on spare cash in my pocket and on the driveability of these turbos in the city traffic.

[kritz]

Then get an e85 tune, more timing will net you more power. You can also spray some nos.

[paveltol]

There is no E85 here unfortunately. And the the local 93RON is worse that the 91.

[DiGi Faggot]

Originally Posted by paveltol What is wrong with lowering the compression?

Less Compression = Less Power. Meaning you have to throw in a lot more boost and fuel to get the same amount of power.

[paveltol]

What are the stock sleeves made of? Iron? How thick are they? About 1 mm?

[Tabasco69]

2mm iron sleeves

safely bore .020, but only if you need to get rid of defects otherwise hone them

lower compression is old school because tuning was less accurate, it was used as a safety margin, proper tuning there is nothing wrong with running stock cr or even higher aka 10:1, problem with lowering cr is the engine becomes a dog out of boost.

if you are going to run the engine to 350whp range buy a cobb ap and get it proffesionally tuned.

fuel pump upgrade, cai, dp/exhaust, mbc, cobb ap will get you to 350whp, do not run the car with these mods unless you get it tuned at the same time, not a hour later or day later, you run the risk of running lean because you have fitted parts that enchance the ve of the engine as a whole, more air in needs to be matched with more fuel.

[Tomas]

yes Iron. The block is cast around the liners.
I would not worry about sleeves. Stock is plently strong.
Almost everyone runs forged internals on the stock block. Only a few using Darton sleeves / Cp-e. Really not worth the trouble IMO.
Ceramic coated pistons --> not needed.

Parts to be replaced during build:
1. Bearings.
2. VVT assembly.
3. Timing Chain.
4. Chain Tensioner.
5. Head gasket
6. Head bolts / studs
7. Crank bolt
8. Cam bolts.
9. REPLACE ALL camshaft and crankpulley washers.
10. Timing cover seal.
Not all inclusive list. I might have missed some stuff.
You can also replace the timing chain rails but the ones I've seen never showed much wear.

If you are rebuilding with the engine off the car also change rear main seal.

[TWOptSL0W]

This is still incomplete, but a good start

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-motor-106962/

[BlueDmnSpeed]

eric@edgeautosport talk to this guy he can help you out

[Tabasco69]

Originally Posted by Tomas yes Iron. The block is cast around the liners. I would not worry about sleeves. Stock is plently strong. Almost everyone runs forged internals on the stock block. Only a few using Darton sleeves / Cp-e. Really not worth the trouble IMO. Ceramic coated pistons --> not needed. Parts to be replaced during build: 1. Bearings. 2. VVT assembly. 3. Timing Chain. 4. Chain Tensioner. 5. Head gasket 6. Head bolts / studs 7. Crank bolt 8. Cam bolts. 9. REPLACE ALL camshaft and crankpulley washers. 10. Timing cover seal. Not all inclusive list. I might have missed some stuff. You can also replace the timing chain rails but the ones I've seen never showed much wear. If you are rebuilding with the engine off the car also change rear main seal.

just making this crystal clear so he understand "REPLACE ALL camshaft and crankpulley washers" these are friction washers that hold the camshaft and cranhshaft sprockets in place along with the torque provided by a NEW crankshaft pulley bolt, if these sprockets where to ever slip position, pistons and valves would collide-----this is a mistake people have made and destroyed there engine as a result FYI.

[paveltol]

Any more comments? Where are the gurus' points of view?)

[Tabasco69]

There really aren't any 'gurus', pretty simple process, the extra details are not necessary unless you are building a drag engine.

the basic rotating assembly upgrade (pistons-rings-rods-bearings-arp head studs/end of story), extras which are not necessary, balancing all the parts will let you increase the rpm threshold, blueprinting the head (gasket matching, port&polish, upgraded valves, retainers extra) will increase it's flow rate- skies the limits depending upon how much you are willing to spend........to make a reliable 400whp engine though requires only the basics......tuning is critical though

[Tomas]

The gurus are in Kazakhstan.

[paveltol]

Thanks for the answers, although there are still some questions left:
1. Do all the forged pistons make that clanking noise while the engine is warming up? What size of pistons should I get for the stock bore? This question may sound weird, but some of the fellas here for stock 87.5 bore order less diameter pistons in order to compensate the thermal expansion of the forged material?

2. What are the options for the upgraded valves?

[Tabasco69]

you leave piston/ring sizing up to the machinist you take the block to, that is part of his job, 101 on building an engine is you never purchase rotating assembly parts before a machinist has finished working the cylinder and bearing journals.

you are reffering to piston slap, gods honest truth I run fully forge piston (CP) and I have never heard slap, there are 2 different grades of forged,

the commom grade that 99% of comercial market piston are 4032 which contains a measure of silicone to reduce exspansion rate (piston slap)
Physical Properties of 4032
Nominal Density 2.68 g/CC. 097 lb/in3

Mechanical Properties of 4032
Tensile Strength, Ultimate 380 MPa 55, 000 psi
Tensile Strength, Yield 315 MPa 46, 000 psi

Modulus of Elasticity 79 GPa 11, 400 psi
Fatigue Endurance Limit 110 MPa 16, 000 psi
and.....
the hardest forged aluminum pistons availible, major piston slap, application for super engines think F1 and top fuel dragsters that are striped and rebuilt after each race
Physical Properties of 2618
Nominal Density 2.81 g/CC. 100 lb/in3

Mechanical Properties of 2618
Tensile Strength, Ultimate 440 MPa 64, 000 psi
Tensile Strength, Yield 370 MPa 54, 000 psi
Modulus of Elasticity 74 GPa 10, 400 psi
Fatigue Endurance Limit 125 MPa 18, 000 psi

valves will be a custom deal ferra or supertech, the custom part is finding the right size because there are no "mzr disi specific valves", the seats will have to be machined to accept larger oversized +1mm ie, sodium filled for exhaust side resist heat well but cost a fucton and are unecessary unless you push 1400whp, stainless or titanium or tooled steel for intake valves, I liked tooled steel myself (forged)

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by paveltol Thanks for the answers, although there are still some questions left: 2. What are the options for the upgraded valves?

See username Celestspeed3's build.

Going BIG

[Tabasco69]

seriously for a reliable 400whp just the rotating assembly is necessary/short block build, I would not mess with the cylinder head, lots of money with little result to show for that money, maybe have the ports gasket matched, cleaned up and polished that is about it.

stock bearing tolerance are very tight, loosening them up a bit will allow you to run a thick engine oil and reduce parastic drag, really want to spend the money have the assembly balanced, pistons, rods and crankshaft, this will make the engine last longer, reduce bearing loading and help free up a couple of hp/tq and maybe sweeten the oil and coolant ports.....other then machining the shortblock build is pretty straight forward just like any other engine being built for fi, cleanliness is very important, torqueing procedures etc........buy a shop manual a good torque wrench with a degreeing, sst's for setting timing to tdc1, upgrade the main and head fasteners, replace all of the ttyl fastners and friction washers etc

[paveltol]

Sorry for being so stubborn, but I have never seen those 2mm thick sleeves in the cyl block. There are really no obvious signs of the sleeves on the stock block. Official local Mazda Motor Co information also confirms that cylinders have ceramic coating. Can anyone please help me find the truth/proof?