Whole clutch kit replaced - still problems with shifting and pedal feels the same! Why?

[Guthrie]

Hi All,

I had problems with shifting and with clutch not fully disengaging so I bought a whole new kit (LUK) and gave it to the mechanic (disc, pressure plate, bearing, dual mass).
I still have a problem with shifting (2nd catches and grinds, 5th and 6th have resistance - basically same as before) and I also noticed that clutch pedal feels exactly the same as before (really soft, too soft!)
One thing that's fixed is that clutch now fully disengages.

Any ideas why I still have shifting problems and why the clutch pedal feels exactly the same as before even though the PP was supposedly replaced!?

[jracer]

master cylinder ???

[chuckms6]

Either a issue with the hydraulics or pedal needs adjustment

Tapatalking

[greg08]

this is obviously due to ur master cylinder leaking internally and not forcing enough pressure on the pressure plate to disengage.

/ slave cylinder leaking. but its probably master.

and check ur clutch pedal when u take it off (you have to to get the master cylinder off) its really easy. just make sure u check ur pedal for any tears in the metal

[06Speed6]

That grinding and poping that your trans is doing is ruining your syncros, ide skip 2nd for a while till you get it fixed.

[Guthrie]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 That grinding and poping that your trans is doing is ruining your syncros, ide skip 2nd for a while till you get it fixed.

Hey, that's exactly what I've been doing - going straight from 1 to 3.

The thing is I already asked two seperate mechanincs (including the one that put in a new clutch) to thoroughly check the whole hydraulic system (cylinders, hose, air, etc.) before I decided to get a new clutch. They told me hydraulics were fine! Were they full of s..t or could they really not see that?!

[06Speed6]

If the rest of the gears shift smoothly it might be a shift fork issue.

You can test clutch release by putting the car on flat ground, trans in neutral, push the clutch pedal down, wait one or two seconds, then shift into first, if the car feels like it moved the clutch isnt releasing

[Guthrie]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 If the rest of the gears shift smoothly it might be a shift fork issue. You can test clutch release by putting the car on flat ground, trans in neutral, push the clutch pedal down, wait one or two seconds, then shift into first, if the car feels like it moved the clutch isnt releasing

We tried that before I put in a new clutch - the car did not move but I could see the motor jumping up and down when the mechaninc did exactly what you described above.

It does not happen any more but I still have problems with shifting and I think I feel the clutch shaft rotating when changing gears even with the clutch pedal fully pressed down.

If you guys are still telling me it's the haudraulics, I will definately look into replacing both cylinders and possibly the release fork. Will it be enough?

[06Speed6]

Is it hard to shift into all gears? If the clutch were not releasing properly the shifting difficulty should be about even.

If its the trans, there are three forks that control the forward gears, generally when the forks fail they fail slowly at first then it fails fairly suddenly and you arent able to shift into a particular gear.

The three forks control pairs of gears, 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 so if one of those pairs fails its almost always a shift fork.

[Guthrie]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Is it hard to shift into all gears? If the clutch were not releasing properly the shifting difficulty should be about even. If its the trans, there are three forks that control the forward gears, generally when the forks fail they fail slowly at first then it fails fairly suddenly and you arent able to shift into a particular gear. The three forks control pairs of gears, 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 so if one of those pairs fails its almost always a shift fork.

This could be a reason although I have problems with all those pairs:
1-2 are just horrible, sometimes I can't even put it in gear, they get stuck half way down and I have to try again, same with reverse
3-4 are ok although not as smooth as before (see below)
5-6 have resistance at the beginning, 5 goes in smoothly after that but 6 sometimes has some more resistance on the way in.

It all started after I took the car to a private repair shop to have brake/clutch fluid and trans oil replaced a couple of months ago. I had someone else check all the hydraulics after that and they did not see anything wrong with it. That's why I'm so confused now!

Is replacing the cylinders and the release fork the last thing I can do before I decide to take the gearbox appart?

BTW. What makes those three forks move? Maybe that's a problem?

[chuckms6]

Bleed the clutch and check for leaks before you spend more money...

Tapatalking

[06Speed6]

So it was all fine and then someone replaced the brake/clutch fluid and now its all messed up. Ide have it all rebled again. Is the rubber clutch line original? Its located near the clutch fork between the trans and radiator. Sometimes it can bubble when the pedal is pressed. You can watch that line and see or feel if it expands when the pedal is pressed, it should not expand at all.

If that line checks out as ok.

1) replace rubber line, master/slave cyl, refill and rebleed system.

If that doesnt fix it

2) pull trans and have it checked and replace the clutch fork.

I am not aware of any way to replace the clutch fork without pulling the trans.

If a mechanic has a bore scope, you can shift the trans into neutral, unbolt the shifter cables, unbolt the gear sensors, unbolt the 4-5ish bolts on the trans around the shifter tree, use a magnet to pull the ball bearings out of those bolt holes, unbolt the 4ish bolts on the top of the trans holding the shifter tree in, and then lift the tree out and then you can inspect all of the shift forks with a bore scope. All of the forks have pads on the top and bottom of the "fingers" that go into the gear clusters, almost like finger nails. Those pads must be present and intact. The tree can be reserted by aligning all of the tabs in a row and dropping it in.

[Guthrie]

Thanks very much guys! Much appreciated.

I found this doc about the clutch in the downloads section which seems to cover everything:

MazdaSpeed Forums PDF Viewer

MazdaSpeed Forums PDF Viewer

Do you know if there is a similar one for the Trans?

I'll give it to the mechanic with your suggestions. One thing I'd like to clarify - is it only 1 fork or 3 of them?

[06Speed6]

The clutch fork releases the clutch

The trans forks change gears

[Guthrie]

I took the car back to the mechanic (same one that replaced clutch/brakes fluid and trans oil 3 months ago and the whole clutch 1 week ago). He drove it for 10 minutes and told me he did not think there was anything wrong with the clutch nor the hydraulics. He did notice that occasionally there were some problems with shifting but to him it was not a big enough issue to do anything.
I'm stuck with this problem until something really bad happens with the trans! That's when it will be worth having a look and trying to fix it according to him.

I can't really prove that replacing clutch/brakes fluid and trans oil created this problem, can I? I literally started to have these problems when I picked the car up. Do you think that replacing trans oil could have caused this or was it just a coincidence?

And why the hell does the pedal feel the same if the PP is brand new?!? He did not have an answer.

[06Speed6]

If the oem pp was replaced with another oem pp it should feel the same.

I dont think that trans fluid is an issue, assuming that they used the right fluid.

[h.h.sk1nny]

Do you have a fmic? When I put mine on, the coldside pipe routing interferred with that shift weight thingie and made it hard to go into some gears.

[jm211]

i have similar issues as you. Kinda glad im not alone.

i have 55k on the clock with stock clutch, fluids and hydraulics.

3-6 are good. 1 can be hard sometimes but 2nd gear specifically is the issue.

in first gear i drive to 2000-3000 rpm and press in clutch fully. as i move the shifter into second i usually get resistance half way followed by a "Clack/clunk" and sometimes a grind when cold. If i boost into second its usually smooth. if I use my palm with open hand and pull the shifter to me, its usually smooth. the way i hold the shifter can affect the quality of the shift...

it has nothing to do with the mounts. only does it in second gear.

Funny thing: I noticed it when i changed my tans oil as well....i went from OEM to amsoil. i had a shop fill it. Could it not be full enough?

Im thinking about rebuilding my cylinders, changing fluid and installing the SURE Anchors and shortcut.

I have also adjusted my linkage. no improvement.

However, when i lube up the assembly under the intake, it is smoother...

[greg08]

ok to anyone with problems with low engagement and grinding into gears, u may want to go ahead and order a new master cylinder on ebay for cheap. I was having issues and i swapped my master cylinder (10 minute job) and now the trans shifts so smooth

[jm211]

just rebuild kits ok?

i see rock auto sells dorman for 16$, Beck for 30$ and wagner for 80$.

i know oem is around 90-100$ from onlinemazdaparts.

RockAuto Parts Catalog[viewcurrency]=USD&ck[ID]=0&ck[idlist]=0

[chuckms6]

So taking 15 minutes to bleed the clutch is to much huh...

Tapatalking

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by h.h.sk1nny Do you have a fmic? When I put mine on, the coldside pipe routing interferred with that shift weight thingie and made it hard to go into some gears.

True, but that would just be the forward gears, 1-3-5.

[Guthrie]

I should not feel the clutch shaft moving when holding the gearstick with a gear selected, right?! It's pissing me off because I don't know how it all works and I have run out of ideas.

The clutch itself and the hydraulics should be ok. I am starting to think that either the oli change fucked it all up somehow or someone swapped the trans!

[Marcus]

Anyone else think it could be the transmission mount being shanty? I've had some concerning issues with 2nd gear myself yet most mechanics who drive it ask if its a stage 2 clutch.

Reason being is when I shift, the whole car jerks from what only feels like the low center leftish of the car. Regardless if its a high or low rpm shift, that only makes the jolt worse, it happens. In regards to worn gears and syncros, if that mount was weak and maligned, could this cause the issues most of us have? I only ask b/c I dont know enough about it all, so I'm serious in my newbness.

I think some of us will find out with the SURE mounts coming out soon.

[jm211]

if the sure dont add too much nvh im down.

it could be the tranny mount. there is a post that i just replied to with the same issues.

this isn't unique. most complain about 2nd gear too. (myself included) It has to be a mount moving or hydraulic system that needs some TLC

[chuckms6]

Originally Posted by Marcus Anyone else think it could be the transmission mount being shanty? I've had some concerning issues with 2nd gear myself yet most mechanics who drive it ask if its a stage 2 clutch. Reason being is when I shift, the whole car jerks from what only feels like the low center leftish of the car. Regardless if its a high or low rpm shift, that only makes the jolt worse, it happens. In regards to worn gears and syncros, if that mount was weak and maligned, could this cause the issues most of us have? I only ask b/c I dont know enough about it all, so I'm serious in my newbness. I think some of us will find out with the SURE mounts coming out soon.

I'm pretty sure the Op's issue is air in his clutch line even though he chooses to ignore me. If you have a speed 6 your issue sounds like a broken diff mount, if not that then rmm.
Tapatalking

[Marcus]

Originally Posted by chuckms6 I'm pretty sure the Op's issue is air in his clutch line even though he chooses to ignore me. If you have a speed 6 your issue sounds like a broken diff mount, if not that then rmm. Tapatalking

Both of those have been replaced with the appropriate SURE product as well as the diff brace. All in all, the OE parts that came out of this vehicle was relatively low wear as that was when the car was in the 60K KM range.

Call me a crazy, but I imagine once things align and wear into place with the new sure mounts (S6 duo), most of these problems will disappear.

As for bleeding the clutch/brake line, thats something mines due for.

[Guthrie]

Originally Posted by chuckms6 I'm pretty sure the Op's issue is air in his clutch line even though he chooses to ignore me. If you have a speed 6 your issue sounds like a broken diff mount, if not that then rmm. Tapatalking

It wasn't. Air in the clutch has other symptoms by the way.
Everything was checked again and was fine so I ended up replacing the tranny for a different used one. The problems are gone now. Looks like the original oil change fucked it up - the mechaninc put in Total fully synthetic 75w90 in it. One theory was (from a guy that rebuilds trannys) that the bad oil made the synchros "stick" and it would take ages or multiple oil changes for this problem to disappear.

[chuckms6]

Originally Posted by Guthrie It wasn't. Air in the clutch has other symptoms by the way. Everything was checked again and was fine so I ended up replacing the tranny for a different used one. The problems are gone now. Looks like the original oil change fucked it up - the mechaninc put in Total fully synthetic 75w90 in it. One theory was (from a guy that rebuilds trannys) that the bad oil made the synchros "stick" and it would take ages or multiple oil changes for this problem to disappear.

that's the right weight, they probably used a gl-5 fluid, the additives are not good for brass synchros.for the Trans gl-4 is recommended.

Sorry if it seemed like I felt ignored, when you said not fully disengaging and recently messed with, that's what I thought it was. i'm used to people not taking my advice, doing it the hard way, and realizing I was right lol. No hard feelings.

Tapatalking

[jm211]

those additives shouldn't make a difference that quick though. All they do is slowly eat the brass off the syncros.

using probably wont affect you but the next owner will likely see the issues.


i switched to amsoil 75w-90 full synth gl4 and i may have started to notice a degrade in shift quality. just can remember if it did it before that though because i changed it shortly after buying the car..

[Guthrie]

I didn't say they put in GL-5 or anything with friction modifiers. They used regular Total full synthethic 75W90 GL-4 which in theory should not have caused all these issues but it did!

"Everything was checked again and was fine so I ended up replacing the tranny for a different used one. The problems are gone now" - I might have spoken too soon ;( Wishful thinking I guess. This tranny is a lot better than mine after the oil change but it's not perfect and I have some similar problems like before but on a much smaller scale. Need to drive for a week or two to find out. Not sure now if it's this tranny or some kind of a problem I had before!?
I'm starting to have enough of this shit and I begin to think that these trannies are just shite and there is not much any of us can do about it!

[jm211]

its too bad, and these trannys are much better compared to other manufactures.

Im thinking knock out what can be controlled:

1: Ford motorcraft
2: new clutch fluid
3: new mounts or make sure all is aligned
4: new or rebuild slave/master
5: adjust shifter cable
6: SS clutch line
7: re-adjust or adjust the clutch pedal
8: take apart tranny.


in the order from free to big money.

[RWDAddict]

Had the same problem, eventually lead to me having to rebuild my trans but the issues that caused them were bad clutch line and my clutch pedal assembly was trashed. All of the metal supports were snapped. It's a common problem. It's a reasonable part too from the dealer in the $150 range. Replace that and get a SS clutch line and see where you sit after that.

[jm211]

Ok to update:

I adjusted the shifter farther to the left and removed all the grease and sprayed more lithium grease on the ball.

it seems to be smoother. i couldn't get any clunks.

I noticed there is an oring, black in color, at the base of the ball. it seemed to be loose on the left side (facing above assembly) not sure its purpose.

I also notice there is flex in the center of the whole assembly when i move the shifter right or left. it only moves where the shifter ball sits in the plastic, not the entire assembly.


funny thing is ive adjusted it 3 times and each time it seems better but gets worse over time. could it be moving?

[Guthrie]

Thanks, I have already started going through this list and also added some things:

1: Ford motorcraft - done
2: new clutch fluid + rebleeding - done
3: new mounts or make sure all is aligned
4. check diff mount
5: new or rebuild slave/master
6: adjust shifter cable
7: SS clutch line
8: re-adjust or adjust the clutch pedal
9: take apart tranny.

Where can I get the SS clutch line from?

Does anyone have any other ideas? How about the shifter cables or bushings?

[06Speed6]

Street unit has them for like $25

[jm211]

Check this out:

Originally Posted by JFisher100191 View Post (Mazda6forums)
just for some credit, i'm a technician at a mazda dealership. Obviously not the one you went to because if a car comes back after having wipers put on with a transmission issue we fix it. When the car leaves the shop that I work at one of two things happens... either the customer is made FULLY aware of any problems or possible future problems, or they are fixed. Plain and simply, there is no grey area. It's black and white. It pisses me off that the dealership you're dealing with is giving us a bad name and if it's the one in philly i'm thinking of, they single handedly pull down our customer satisfaction, retention and come-back scores for the north east coast on a monthly basis. They are an absolute disgrace to the Mazda name.


Sorry, now that I've gotten that rant out of the way, Mazda's do have some problems with the "gates" for lack of a better word.. as you pull the shifter down to go into a gear two things occur, a gate goes down and another gate moves left to right when switching from 2-3 4-5 or the other way around... however, when going straight down, the horizontal gate tends to get in the way of the vertical gate. It's directly on top of the transmission where this happens and the springs / gates tend to warp because of heat and obviously, the warmer the vehicle gets, the weaker the metal gets not allowing it to force it out of the way like it was cold. It's hard to prove that it was their fault but if anything heavy (like the turbo or a hammer or something) was dropped on that housing, it can easily dislodge that assembly. It's not going to be easy to prove it was their fault, I can promise you that. It's all he-said, she-said and in court, honestly, whoever has the better lawyer will likely win because there is no concrete evidence that the vehicle WASN'T and is now AFTER and BECAUSE of the repair, having the problems. I really hope for the best and you really need to have it diagnosed. See if you can find another Mazda dealership within driving distance and drop it off with them. Let them diagnose it and bring the diagnosis to the previous dealership. That's what's going to help you in court if you're 100% sure it was their fault. I really hope everything works out for you man. Best of luck and if there is anything I can do to help I'd be more than happy to do so."


I've mentioned this before and think it may a merit.
Any opinions? I have requested the part# for the assembly that sits on the transmission from mazda. I think I may be on to something for many issues I've been seeing.

If these parts warp over time, they will cause sloppy gate access and can cause gears to grind or drop hard into gear.
In these 2 events and damaged shift fork occurs from warpage or widened rail holes and syncro damage.

[Guthrie]

Is this inside the tranny or outside of it? Where are those springs / gates ? Could someone possibly post a picture or a diagram?

[jm211]

From my understanding its the assembly on top of the transmission housing.

It either that or a gear synchro collar. (which requires surgery to replace the collar. The synchro is probably fine though)

[Guthrie]

That thing which you can move by hand to change gears when the tranny is out?