ATP/Garrett Hate - failure GTX3076

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport So it looks to be a combination of factors to cause smokey turbos.

LOL. Definitely a few things going on @ once.

[Tabasco69]

Yeah but increased boost should also help the oil seals keep the oil in the chra.

The oil pump should have a internal pressure regulator, that could be a possible failure point and not the pump itself, I mean the pump's output is directly related to how fast the pulley turns/engine rpm.

I run a -3an braided ptfe oil feed with a .035 restrictor off a filter oil plate and a -10an return, I had major problems with both the hot and cold side pushing massive amount of oil past the seals when the RETURN line came apart internally, modern qaulity oil has additves that supposedly minimize foaming issues but all you have to do is look at the 3 layer cocktail you get when dumping a catch can to see a different picture.

The crankshaft will turn at a maximum on most mzr's at @ 6700rpm versus the 170,000-200,000 rpm of the chra's common shaft, if the oil can be whipped/frothed by the engine's rotating assembly you can bet the common shaft is going to do the same.

If there is a problem that can cause backpressure anywhere inside of the engine the potential for oil loading pipes will come about, this includes the pcv system both under vacuum and positive pressure states, I think we are all aware there are 2 distinct vent systems for the crankcase, under vacuum it is the lower sealed tract that is assisted by vacuum from the intake manifold, that shuts down during positve manifold pressure and leaves the valve cover vent to do the job of venting.

[rfinkle2]

Found some pressure numbers for an ms6 (not sure of the factory specs, but will check the manual @ home tonight).

A problem with oil pressure. Need Help. - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum

1000 RPM - 20 psi
2000 RPM - 40 psi
3000 RPM - 60 psi
4000 RPM - 63 psi
5000 RPM - 66 psi
6000 RPM - 70 psi

(from the ms6 thread)^


"Oil pressure entering a ball-bearing turbocharger needs to be between 40 psi and 45 psi at the maximum engine operating speed."

from Garrett's site^

Couple that with many of us running 40 weight oil and you probably have roughly 2x's the recommended oil pressure running through the turbo.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Found some pressure numbers for an ms6 (not sure of the factory specs, but will check the manual @ home tonight). A problem with oil pressure. Need Help. - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum 1000 RPM - 20 psi 2000 RPM - 40 psi 3000 RPM - 60 psi 4000 RPM - 63 psi 5000 RPM - 66 psi 6000 RPM - 70 psi (from the ms6 thread)^ "Oil pressure entering a ball-bearing turbocharger needs to be between 40 psi and 45 psi at the maximum engine operating speed." from Garrett's site^ Couple that with many of us running 40 weight oil and you probably have roughly 2x's the recommended oil pressure running through the turbo.

So why do guys put a heavier weight to stop smoking on a k04?

[jmhinkle]

60 psi at 3000 rpm is tremendous pressure on any motor. Hence the need for a restrictor. You guys need to stop listening to ATP. It's not an ATP turbo, it is a Garrett turbo. Garrett says restrictor, do it or GTFO. Unsubbing because I'm always right and my turbo has no issues.

[superskaterxes]

i ran my 3076 for 20k miles with stock lines and zero problems

my GTX35R is currently hooked up identically and i still have no problems. if something clogged the OP's turbo, why should garrett/ATP be responsible? its not their fault it happened, the turbo wasent designed to run with no oil in it.

btw those pressure measurements are probably measured at the oil filter housing. do u think the entire oil system with all its passages operates at the same pressures? do u think theres 60psi coming out of the turbo?

i would never run an inline filter with a turbo oil feed or add a restrictor to an ATP turbo but thats just IMHO

[chimmike]

Originally Posted by jmhinkle 60 psi at 3000 rpm is tremendous pressure on any motor. Hence the need for a restrictor. You guys need to stop listening to ATP. It's not an ATP turbo, it is a Garrett turbo. Garrett says restrictor, do it or GTFO. Unsubbing because I'm always right and my turbo has no issues.

Frankly I think you're going about this with far too much generalization. If you're not absolutely, 100% positive what YOUR engine oil pressure is in the turbo feed line, you're guessing, plain and simple.

This isn't to say that I am.....but generalizing that they all need restrictors is now clearly a generalization that is not necessarily correct. I know you don't like ATP, but they move enough garrett turbos for me to think they know the engineers at garrett and have had conversations before. Aside from the fact that they're familiar with the mzr somewhat (believe it or not)

[RayRay]

I know jmhinkle is going to yell at me next time he sees me! We just needed to test for ourselves. You always WANT to believe what your manufacturer tells you.

We installed Hals GTX3071 last week. Started getting some smoking issues at wot. Talked to ATP and they still swear you don't need a restrictor. So to test out, we installed the oil feed, block adaptor and restrictor on his car last night. Instantly the smoking went away. Fortunately Hals car had only gone a couple hundred miles (if that much). There did not seem to be any other issues present. We did not measure pressure, just no time or tools. But whatever it is, its more than the gtx can handle. I sent my findings to George. Hopefully ATP will be able to find some new information!

So in short, never listen to Joel! ! Jk! !

I know Hal will not sell any gtx setup without the oil feed and restrictor included. . .

(Thought. . . I don't know what size restrictor they sent me, I'll find out. )

[InFeXIoN]

Originally Posted by RayRay I know jmhinkle is going to yell at me next time he sees me! We just needed to test for ourselves. You always WANT to believe what your manufacturer tells you. We installed Hals GTX3071 last week. Started getting some smoking issues at wot. Talked to ATP and they still swear you don't need a restrictor. So to test out, we installed the oil feed, block adaptor and restrictor on his car last night. Instantly the smoking went away. Fortunately Hals car had only gone a couple hundred miles (if that much). There did not seem to be any other issues present. We did not measure pressure, just no time or tools. But whatever it is, its more than the gtx can handle. I sent my findings to George. Hopefully ATP will be able to find some new information! So in short, never listen to Joel! ! Jk! ! I know Hal will not sell any gtx setup without the oil feed and restrictor included. . . (Thought. . . I don't know what size restrictor they sent me, I'll find out. )

I installed my gtx 3071 a couple weeks ago and the ssp feed line they use a .3 restrictor have had no smoking issues.

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[Haltech]

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport So why do guys put a heavier weight to stop smoking on a k04?

Mazda did issue a TSB to its dealers in mid 2009 to stop using 5/30 and replace with 5/40.

Combination of 925 RPM idle speed and 5/40 oil stopped all smoking for me. I only saw the smoking when i installed the DP.

[bnoon]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 That information is contradictory, no doubt. bnoon's bolt also stopped smoking turbos IIRC. MATT DAMOND has a pressure gauge installed. bnoon, did you ever measure oil pressure in the mazdaspeeds? We need to find out the oil feed pressure or there will never be an end to the debate. I have a feeling we are going to see very high pressure in the feed line... Mazda even decided to use a hard line for feed.

Yes I did measure it. It was above the recommended pressure but I can't remember by how much. I drilled the top of one of my bolts for 1/8 inch NPT fitting and measured it there. Perhaps I need to start selling bolts again and drill/tap the tops for those NPT fittings and perhaps even kit them out. Hummmmm

[BlueStreak]

Been 1300KMs since I installed the restrictor in my GT3071. Turbo is still fine. I'm going to keep running it knowing that it at least wont do any harm.


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[Dano]

hey I think It might have been covered in here but what size is the turbo oil outlet hole in the block?

putting together a custom oil feed kit so I can swap a pressure gauge around and see what the outlet pressure is, what the restricted pressure is and then back to monitor outlet pressure long term.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Dano hey I think It might have been covered in here but what size is the turbo oil outlet hole in the block? putting together a custom oil feed kit so I can swap a pressure gauge around and see what the outlet pressure is, what the restricted pressure is and then back to monitor outlet pressure long term.

i dont think u can fit anything back there besides the stock line because its so tight from the alternator.



does anyone know if that changed the CHRA on the new GTX turbos? i cant believe everyone is adding restrictors yet no one has actually measured the pressure..........

just because your turbo is smoking doesent mean it A) needs a restrictor and B) needs the restrictor that you guessed the size of when you installed it.

[Dano]

what about a 90 like this tee if I can find the right threads?

[EdgeAutosport.com]

I would address crank case pressure before anything to see if that resolves the issue.

I have sold several vented catch cans with people with smoking problems even under wot and it completely fixed their problem. Im guessing oil pressure is fine with the current banjo's. I find it hard to believe the pressure of where it is measured via the sandwich plate is the same all the way on top on the head where the feed is.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Dano what about a 90 like this tee if I can find the right threads?

im pretty sure there is just enough room for a banjo fitting + bolt in there. This is why DJ reuses part of the feed/drain lines for all his kits.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport I would address crank case pressure before anything to see if that resolves the issue. I have sold several vented catch cans with people with smoking problems even under wot and it completely fixed their problem. Im guessing oil pressure is fine with the current banjo's. I find it hard to believe the pressure of where it is measured via the sandwich plate is the same all the way on top on the head where the feed is.

thus the reason I want to measure it at the outlet up top

Originally Posted by superskaterxes im pretty sure there is just enough room for a banjo fitting + bolt in there. This is why DJ reuses part of the feed/drain lines for all his kits.

guess I'll get back there this weekend and take a look.

ATP makes a "kit" that replaces the OE oil feed...Earls also makes a banjo to -3an or -4 fitting which might work.

anyone know the thread pitch....dustin things its 14mm or maybe 12.

edit

banjo's in many sizes.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Dano this is the ssp line at the shop for the garrett turbo setups. The part in the picture is the part that threads into le head.

[Dano]

and that goes all the way to the block?

if so there would have to be plenty of room.

forget the placement of the restrictor in this pic but you get an idea of what I am trying to do.

I was thinking the restrictor or straight ntp to an would go right into the block which obviously it can't...or can it

[chimmike]

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport Dano this is the ssp line at the shop for the garrett turbo setups. The part in the picture is the part that threads into le head.

the 90 does fit into the block portion (on my speed3) for me.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by chimmike the 90 does fit into the block portion (on my speed3) for me.

WTF is the threads in the block connection lol

1/8th NPT
12mm
14mm

que'

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Dano looks like the ssp is block adapter to 3AN

Includes:
– 3AN Stainless Steel Teflon Coated Hose (Red, Blue, Black or Clear)
– Block Adapter to 3AN with new copper crush washer.
– Turbo Feed Fitting for 1/8” NPT (Precision Turbos) in straight or 90deg.

[chimmike]

My line is -4, fwiw


Sent from my iPhone your mom's face

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Edit let me measure the block adapter.


Also on the ssp kit the restrictor screws right into the turbo then the line

[Dano]

Originally Posted by chimmike My line is -4, fwiw Sent from my iPhone your mom's face

hum...so it looks like some ATP "kits" are 3AN while others are 4AN.

The kit I was looking at was a 3AN 22" line.

22" Low profile -3 LINE Kit for GT25R through GT35R turbos : atpturbo.com

[InFeXIoN]

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport Edit let me measure the block adapter. Also on the ssp kit the restrictor screws right into the turbo then the line

You'd be correct as that is what I'm running.

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[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Dano thus the reason I want to measure it at the outlet up top guess I'll get back there this weekend and take a look. ATP makes a "kit" that replaces the OE oil feed...Earls also makes a banjo to -3an or -4 fitting which might work. anyone know the thread pitch....dustin things its 14mm or maybe 12. edit banjo's in many sizes.

Russell makes makes garrett specific fittings as well.
Russell Performance - Universal Turbo Adapter Fittings

eric@edgeautosport, imma send you a pm sometime today. I think I want to use that SSP kit.

[Dano]

yeah...not too sure about that particular banjo as it is for a press on fitting and we all know how much fun that is to do

is there a brotha out there that knows the thread pitch of the turbo oil feed outlet hole in the block?

anyone? I think that is the last piece I need to make up my custom kit.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Dano yeah...not too sure about that particular banjo as it is for a press on fitting and we all know how much fun that is to do is there a brotha out there that knows the thread pitch of the turbo oil feed outlet hole in the block? anyone? I think that is the last piece I need to make up my custom kit.

Celestspeed3

[Tabasco69]

[Celestspeed3]

Block oil feed is 12mm x 1.5mm

I used a 12mm x 1.5mm to -4AN fitting, with a -4 to -3 reducer, to a -3 line, to a -3 7/16 banjo with a 7/16" inverted flare restrictor bolt.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 Block oil feed is 12mm x 1.5mm I used a 12mm x 1.5mm to -4AN fitting, with a -4 to -3 reducer, to a -3 line, to a -3 7/16 banjo with a 7/16" inverted flare restrictor bolt.

remind me about the blow job I owe you the next time I see you...

...and a reach around to get things started...k

awesome!

[Celestspeed3]

Does this make me orange? LoL

[Easter Bunny]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 Does this make me orange? LoL

Apparently you are destined to remain green, which is better than brown

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 Block oil feed is 12mm x 1.5mm I used a 12mm x 1.5mm to -4AN fitting, with a -4 to -3 reducer, to a -3 line, to a -3 7/16 banjo with a 7/16" inverted flare restrictor bolt. Does this make me orange? LoL

Coming up strong in a lot of threads in my book.

Thanks for the info.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 Does this make me orange? LoL

We can roll you in a bag of cheetos and call it a day eh?

[Celestspeed3]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Coming up strong in a lot of threads in my book. Thanks for the info.

When I'm finished with Fobio's build we'll talk about me being orange. First BT Tial on a MS3 that i know about. Plus all the custom work on my own car. I'm in no hurry, got to earn my place first.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 When I'm finished with Fobio's build we'll talk about me being orange. First BT Tial on a MS3 that i know about. Plus all the custom work on my own car. I'm in no hurry, got to earn my place first.

Wow. Asking to be made orange? Really? It's something that's given, not requested.


Tapadatass

[Payne Racing 67]

Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 When I'm finished with Fobio's build we'll talk about me being orange. First BT Tial on a MS3 that i know about. Plus all the custom work on my own car. I'm in no hurry, got to earn my place first.

Takes a lot more to become orange, also its a position given by recognition, not request. Just keep working hard and doing what youre doing. Youll get there.

Sent from my GS3