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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Turbo Induction MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Turbo Induction - Have a turbo, intercooler, downpipe question? Anything turbo related belongs here!


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 Old 08-30-2011, 07:10 AM   #1
 
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Default Blow Through MAF

This is news to me. I found the thread with the list of how-to articles (nice by the way) and there is nothing in there about this topic. I did a general search but got less than satisfactory results. Can someone please point me to the best article/thread on the topic?
Something that with a little luck explains all aspects of what else needs to be changed? I'm fairly sure the tuning goes out the window and given the factory turbo's oil blowby issues it would not be a good idea to do it without also doing an upgrade to a more reliable turbo, but are there any other things to watch out for?
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 Old 08-30-2011, 08:19 AM   #2
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The turbo blow by has nothing to do with the turbo.
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 Old 08-30-2011, 09:25 AM   #3
 
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And even less to do with running a blow through MAF.
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 Old 08-30-2011, 09:34 AM   #4
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Hahaha. Blow thru maf setup, just a fancy way of saying how can I vta
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 Old 08-30-2011, 10:26 AM   #5
 
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Perhaps I used the wrong term, but the stock turbo leaks oil. I rather doubt all of it goes out the exhaust. This is a problem if the MAF is downstream from the turbo is it not? A bigger problem may be the crankcase crud getting recirculated through the intake though, or would a catch can effectively eliminate that issue?
Meanwhile, other than politely (thank you for that) pointing out that I may be wrong about the turbo, does anyone have answers to the other points?
I rather prefer the idea of reading the air volume as close to the manifold as possible as the whole bit about reading air so early in the process then dumping the excess back into the system has always bothered me. It just seems logical that it would be more accurate and therefore beneficial to take the reading as close to the point of fuel injection as you can, which means the closer you can get to the inlet of the manifold, the better. I'm sure there is a flaw in this logic somewhere due to some piece of knowledge I am missing, but the only way to learn is to risk sounding like a fool and asking the question.
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 Old 08-30-2011, 11:05 AM   #6
 
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no....no...and no

recirc occurs post MAF....maf accounts for this error...hence why shit gets fucked if you go VTA

search for oil catch cans and pvc upgrades

and if you are talking about going off map only.....well i think some people have looked into this....but that is old school man....cars are going to MAF for a reason....my guess would be because it is better.....but im no smarty pants

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 Old 08-30-2011, 11:33 AM   #7
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The turbo doesn't leak oil when it's fed the correct volume at the correct pressure. Aside from being too small for any substantial power outputs, there is nothing wrong with the turbo. Even if you're blowing smoke in most cases.
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 Old 08-30-2011, 05:25 PM   #8
 
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Originally Posted by TRex View Post
recirc occurs post MAF....maf accounts for this error...hence why shit gets fucked if you go VTA
This I knew. I just don't think it is an ideal way to keep an accurate a/f ratio. I envision the air following that path and just don't see it being exactly ideal.

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Originally Posted by TRex View Post
and if you are talking about going off map only.....well i think some people have looked into this....but that is old school man....cars are going to MAF for a reason....my guess would be because it is better.....but im know smarty pants
No, definitely not. I'm just thinking that, as I said before, the closer to the injection point you measure the air volume, the more accurate the mix should be. I'm just wondering exactly what is involved in a conversion of this type.
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 Old 08-30-2011, 06:00 PM   #9
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Unless you have a leak in the system, all the metered air is gonna get where it needs to be, and all the fuel that's been calculated will be utilized. If there's isn't enough, fuel will be trimmed out when your o2 sensor reads richer than commanded. If you're getting more air in somewhere, your ecu will add more fuel to prevent a lean condition. In a blow through system, it seems that tracking down any such leak or even knowing there is a problem would be much more difficult.
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 Old 08-31-2011, 07:02 AM   #10
 
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Thinking about it, it seems to me that if the sensor were located immediately before the manifold, a leak prior to it would be harmless in terms of A/F ratio. You are monitoring the air at a point where it is pretty much impossible for a leak to occur after the reading is taken. The only indication you would have of a leak prior to it is a drop in boost pressure and the associated loss of power. Of course, good luck finding the leak. You would have to check every connection in the system.
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 Old 08-31-2011, 08:01 AM   #11
 
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As I see it, the "prejudice" against draw-through goes back to when turbo cars had carbs on them and designers thought that they could build a system that drew air in at close to atmo but still could fuel for the post-carb boost. This resulted in lousy driveability and fuel mileage. Hence, pressurising the carb became the smarter choice, as the whole system saw the same pressure. Blow-through MAFs are an extension of this think and MAY have had a bit of a place when ECUs had limited computing power and fuel trimming with the O2 wasn't really all that good on the narrow-band O2s in use.

On a new DI car with modern engine management, it doesn't matter squat how the air gets into the engine. We don't have to worry about fuel puddling, dropout, blah blah. The engine gets what it needs right at the chamber. The same air that went by the MAF is still there at the chamber end. The wideband is trimming the fuel constantly on the fly to keep the CL operation as efficient as possible.
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 Old 08-31-2011, 11:16 AM   #12
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I'd personally rather look down at my dashhaw and know that something is wonky with my trims, than wait for an obviously loss in power to tell me I have a leak.
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 Old 08-31-2011, 01:44 PM   #13
 
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To Darth: ...and I am definitely an old dog. I remember when turbocharging first got big as an aftermarket mod in the 70's. Blowthrough with carbs was actually a pain in the neck because carbs don't have the right seals for it. They leaked like a seive. The two options were to either do the incredibly difficult job of rebuilding them appropriately or they would encase the entire carb in a sealed enclosure so the whole thing was pressurized, not just the intake. That way you only had to seal the throttle linkage flex point. But if you did a draw through, you needed to rebuild the turbo to be able to handle a gas/air mix without getting eaten up by the gasoline. What fun it was back then. High pressure electronic fuel injection made turbocharging so much easier.
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 Old 08-31-2011, 01:56 PM   #14
 
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^i guess i am confused why you would be drawing the air/fuel mix through the turbo ever? why would the turbo be post mix point?
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 Old 08-31-2011, 06:19 PM   #15
 
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Draw through carbs were very popular and still are with the muscle car guys. You don't need a special carb or the $$ to swap to EFI.

Ideal? Definitely not, but it's cheap and works for someone who just wants a bit of boost on their older motor.

If you search draw through carb you can find lots of info on it.
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 Old 08-31-2011, 06:48 PM   #16
 
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Some of the kits had what amounted to a huge diverter valve that you bolted to the manifold then the carb went on top of that. At low rpms the fuel/air mix went straight through, but as the turbo started to spool up, it went through the compressor and then to the manifold. The most outrageous one of these I ever saw pictures of was a Chevy 302 with the dual carb crossram manifold and dual turbos. Each exhaust manifold spun the turbo that fed the ram to the opposite side, so they were effectively self equalizing.
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 Old 08-31-2011, 10:54 PM   #17
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The MAF reading is functionally the same in either location, there is more turbulence from the turbo and depending on its location it may need a straightener. The IAT reading will also be wrong since it will not be reading temps pre turbo.
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 Old 09-01-2011, 05:29 AM   #18
 
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Originally Posted by 06Speed6 View Post
The MAF reading is functionally the same in either location, there is more turbulence from the turbo and depending on its location it may need a straightener. The IAT reading will also be wrong since it will not be reading temps pre turbo.
How easy would it be to tune the tables related to the IAT? You could also just pull the wires (I'd assume the two outside?) and place an IAT pre-turbo. I'm not sure what the ECU uses the IAT in the MAF for since BAT's I feel would be everything the fueling is based on unless there is a huge difference between the two indicating a problem.

Also, putting the MAF closer to the TB may give a bit more response since the metered air is entering the engine sooner. You don't have the delay it takes to go through the turbo, TMIC, etc. Whether it makes a difference or not...
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 Old 09-01-2011, 05:41 AM   #19
 
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i would think major tuning would be required...

the maf in its current location is used to seeing a set mass flow right?

so if you put it post turbo....due to the pressure increase and then the sudden volume increase you have a volumetric flow rate increase post turbo right? so mass flow would be higher?

or is it same pre and post turbo?
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 Old 09-01-2011, 07:29 AM   #20
 
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We know there is a table or tables that take into account IAT, boost, and the MAF reading among other things to determine how much fuel is required to make the desired mixture. IAT may not matter so much here (a/f ratio) because the MAF is reading the actual air quantity coming into the system, so the relative density change due to temperature variations may not matter so much. It would be interesting if we could get the opinion of someone from Cobb that really knows the ECU inside and out. Would some careful driving rewrite the system to work in the new layout?

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 Old 09-01-2011, 10:31 AM   #21
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If density affected MAF readings then elevation changes would also skew it. The maf only reads the cooling effect of the air and provides a voltage for the amount of air passing it. That voltage is then referenced in a table to provide the amount of air metered.

Neither speed or density are directly calculated by the MAF.

I know some guys leave their maf in preturbo for the IAT part and use a second MAF post turbo for the actual MAF reading.
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 Old 09-01-2011, 10:54 AM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by Mid_Life_Crisis View Post
We know there is a table or tables that take into account IAT, boost, and the MAF reading among other things to determine how much fuel is required to make the desired mixture. IAT may not matter so much here (a/f ratio) because the MAF is reading the actual air quantity coming into the system, so the relative density change due to temperature variations may not matter so much. It would be interesting if we could get the opinion of someone from Cobb that really knows the ECU inside and out. Would some careful driving rewrite the system to work in the new layout?
If you have ATR you already have everything you need to get it working. Moving the MAF sensor into a blow through conifguration doesn't reqire any changes to the ECM except for a new MAF calibration.
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 Old 09-01-2011, 10:59 AM   #23
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You should only need a new calibration if the housing or sensor is different.
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 Old 09-01-2011, 11:20 AM   #24
 
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A hot wire MAF exposes the sensor element to the intake airflow, and monitors the current required to maintain the wire at temp, the density(and temperature) of the incoming air directly effects the cooling effect it has on the wire...

Moving the MAF post turbo increases the air temp at the sensor as well as the charge density..

In a perfect world the MAF output would be very similar in either location, as your simply changing intake air velocity for charge air density. But, in the real world you have pressure drop and compressor effiency to skew the MAF output--couple that with the non-linear output of the sensor itself and the fact your now operating at far higher densities than it was designed for. I would expect to see the blow through MAF output diverging significantly lower as the charge density increased.. Which I imagine is why people often resort to a blow through setup once they peg the MAF output in OEM location..
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 Old 09-01-2011, 11:51 AM   #25
 
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Originally Posted by 06Speed6 View Post
If density affected MAF readings then elevation changes would also skew it. The maf only reads the cooling effect of the air and provides a voltage for the amount of air passing it. That voltage is then referenced in a table to provide the amount of air metered.

Neither speed or density are directly calculated by the MAF.

I know some guys leave their maf in preturbo for the IAT part and use a second MAF post turbo for the actual MAF reading.
hmmmm.......if all the MAF does is measure a cooling affect...wouldnt things like humidity and ambient air temp need to be taken into account? as they would change by the hour?
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 Old 09-01-2011, 11:57 AM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by TRex View Post
hmmmm.......if all the MAF does is measure a cooling affect...wouldnt things like humidity and ambient air temp need to be taken into account? as they would change by the hour?
Baro is accounted for in the ecm, the IAT is in the MAF, and humidity can be compensated for within the fuel trims...
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 Old 09-01-2011, 12:01 PM   #27
 
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^well how about that then haha that is pretty crazy....

so it is making some sort of calculation on amount of air moving just from convection cooling? that is really pretty cool....haha technology is cool
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 Old 09-01-2011, 01:16 PM   #28
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Just convert to speed density and write your own fuel mangangment programs around that and run 11's. No sweat.
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 Old 09-01-2011, 01:27 PM   #29
 
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i keep lookng at this thread wanting more info on a blow through maf lol
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Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
just bang out the tight spots.
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 Old 09-01-2011, 01:29 PM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by bcmurphy87 View Post
i keep lookng at this thread wanting more info on a blow through maf lol
Not really much to it. Move MAF. Re-Cal MAF. Done.
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 Old 09-01-2011, 01:31 PM   #31
 
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really just thats it? then running vta would be ok? currently trying to reroute pipes to get this 35r in a happy place since i didnt go top mount
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 Old 09-01-2011, 01:45 PM   #32
 
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Originally Posted by bcmurphy87 View Post
really just thats it? then running vta would be ok? currently trying to reroute pipes to get this 35r in a happy place since i didnt go top mount
Yep, hardest part would be finding a nice straight section of the charge piping to put the MAF in--an air straightener in the MAF housing would probably be a good idea also.
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 Old 09-01-2011, 02:16 PM   #33
 
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couldnt you just use the maf housing of a sri? and fab a tubing onto that?
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 Old 09-02-2011, 04:08 PM   #34
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You can also just buy a specially designed maf housing, there are alot of ways to do it.
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 Old 09-04-2011, 08:55 PM   #35
 
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any suggestions for an air straightener
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Originally Posted by djuosnteisn View Post
just bang out the tight spots.
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 Old 09-04-2011, 09:00 PM   #36
 
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Considering that the location is pressurized, what rating should the MAF be upgraded to?
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 Old 09-04-2011, 09:49 PM   #37
 
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Originally Posted by bcmurphy87 View Post
any suggestions for an air straightener
Honeycomb for MAF

Originally Posted by Mid_Life_Crisis View Post
Considering that the location is pressurized, what rating should the MAF be upgraded to?
You don't upgrade the MAF, you use the OEM sensor in a different size housing..

Weld on MAF adaptor for 2.75"~3.25" piping.
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 Old 09-14-2011, 09:13 PM   #38
 
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Been there. Done that.

Did it on my speed6 when I had it almost 2 years ago. Ran it for a few months like that before I sold it. The car loved it. I barely had to do anything special to the MAF tables. Plus I could run VTA with no issues.


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 Old 08-10-2012, 12:40 PM   #39
 
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IM surprised you were able to get away with so little piping pre and post MAF! love the setup though, very clean. What is hooked up on the silicone coupler right on the TB and maf pipe?
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 Old 08-10-2012, 01:46 PM   #40
 
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looks like meth post maf

very cool setup

still dont see the huge advantage with blow through but neat none the less

Last edited by TRex; 08-10-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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