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 Old 04-03-2008, 07:09 AM   #1
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Default Compressor surge or bpv flutter

Allright all you forge bpv experts. Im getting what i thought was surge(maybe bpv flutter?) on my new turbo running 18psi. I had my old setup with blue spring and one shim in place. Was a nice loud "ting".

I was utterly confused how a gt3071 would get compressor surge at 18psi but the stock turbo would get the ting...

anyway.. i pulled out the shim. Maybe its a tad worse, especially at partial throttle.

When i go wot and release all at once. no ping whatsoever, or if it is i cant hear it with the flutter being so loud.

thoughts? Remember... ive got that stupid vacuum line hooked up to that mani/bpv line too, so that may be affecting it.

Can you mimic compressor surge with a spring that isnt stiff enough? Also... whats up with the forge guidelines for spring stiffness and psi? they claim that the red is for 30+ psi....wth?
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 Old 04-03-2008, 07:13 AM   #2
 
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is it surge or flutter ? Forge changed there spring Psi #'s for the speed's the moved the yellow psi#'s to the blue spring claiming the speed's needed a higher spring rate for stock boost
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 Old 04-03-2008, 07:17 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by NYpest View Post
is it surge or flutter ?
ive gotten 6-7 opinions and its evenly split as to what it is. It got a little worse when I took the shim out, maybe, especially at partial thottle... but it sounds an awful lot like turbo surge as well... its crazy.

the youtube compressor surge videos sound alot like what im getting.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 07:18 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by NYpest View Post
is it surge or flutter ? Forge changed there spring Psi #'s for the speed's the moved the yellow psi#'s to the blue spring claiming the speed's needed a higher spring rate for stock boost
so maybe its flutter... I'll go for the red spring on the way into work today... see how it does.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 07:25 AM   #5
 
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Originally Posted by palerider View Post
so maybe its flutter... I'll go for the red spring on the way into work today... see how it does.
From all that i have read flutter means you have a good set up !!!! I always got partial throttle surge anything blue plus 1 shim (on stock boost)
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 Old 04-03-2008, 07:26 AM   #6
 
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You guys sure about the spring pressures?
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 Old 04-03-2008, 07:31 AM   #7
 
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Originally Posted by Jesse MS3GT View Post
You guys sure about the spring pressures? Because the kit I received came with a blue, green and yellow. The yellow was installed. I took the yellow out and put the blue one in since that was the spring everyone was using, so I should use the yellow spring?? I havent put it on my MS3 yet so I cant comment on how it works with the blue spring.
positive "patt at forge" over at 247 confirmed it my kit came with yellow blue and red...yellow poped off way too soon....
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 Old 04-03-2008, 08:29 AM   #8
 
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I wouldnt run the forge with anything less than the redspring. Works the best and holds boost better. What you are hearing is flutter not surge.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 08:30 AM   #9
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eh... i dont know.. maybe a little better with the red spring. If its blowoff sound Im hearing it. It is COMPLETELY different than the noise I heard before.

The guys the other day were listening and said they heard the ting, and blowoff.they flutter is all very noticeable outside the car... but from inside the car... the flutter is LOUD. Too loud to really hear any blowoff noises that include a "ting"...lol Its either blowoff flutter of surge flutter.... who knows. We're all completely split on what it is.

Is compressor surge loud as shit? I thought alot of times you cant even hear it.

Either way it sounds good as fuck....lol
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 Old 04-03-2008, 08:32 AM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by palerider View Post
eh... i dont know.. maybe a little better with the red spring. If its blowoff sound Im hearing it. It is COMPLETELY different than the noise I heard before.

The guys the other day were listening and said they heard the ting, and blowoff... but from inside the car... the flutter is LOUD. Too loud to really hear any blowoff noises that include a "ting"...lol Its either blowoff flutter of surge flutter.... who knows.

Either way it sounds good as fuck....lol

lol ......go with the syncronic mines on the way (i hope)
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 Old 04-03-2008, 08:34 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by driver311 View Post
I wouldnt run the forge with anything less than the redspring. Works the best and holds boost better. What you are hearing is flutter not surge.
How different should I expect the blowoff to sound with this new turbo, bro. Good to hear you too, btw.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 08:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by NYpest View Post
lol ......go with the syncronic mines on the way (i hope)

I googled what the hell syncronic mines was. And this is what popped up...lol
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 Old 04-03-2008, 08:54 AM   #13
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Flutter sounds just like the name. When you push in the clutch under low boost (say in 5th with just a couple PSI) you will hear air release in a flutter and not a whoosh with ping. Like Flutter-Flutter-Flutter real fast. This is normal.

You should NOT get any flutter when under WOT and you shift. That should be nothing but a whoosh and ping. Flutter should only happen under low boost when you press the clutch or get boost by pressing the gas peddle to pass then let off real quick after you get boost.

I currently use the Blue with 2 shims as I still have not got my Red Spring from Pat even though I told him/her I got the Green one that I should not have gotten. The green one is for a fricken lawnmower or something it so weak

TBH - The flutter worried me on my car until I had a guy that knows a lot about turbo's go for a ride. He explained it all too me and now I sleep better at night
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 Old 04-03-2008, 09:41 AM   #14
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I hate to say this but the Forge units are garabage. Check the diaphram and make sure there are no tears in it.

There are some normall flutter noises with most turboed cars, but you have to make sure its flutter from normally occurances or maybe something else is a miss.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 09:55 AM   #15
 
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And thats why I love my HKS...no shims or springs to mess with... (just had to rub it in)

Palerider, with the major cash you are dumping in your ride, why are you messing around with such a lower tier BPV...? stop clowning around and get yourself a top notch BPV...whatever that may be.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 09:56 AM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by palerider View Post
YouTube - 1JZ Lexus SC300 Turbo Soarer Burnout

I googled what the hell syncronic mines was. And this is what popped up...lol
synapse BOV
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 Old 04-03-2008, 09:57 AM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by ptperformance View Post
I hate to say this but the Forge units are garabage. Check the diaphram and make sure there are no tears in it.

There are some normall flutter noises with most turboed cars, but you have to make sure its flutter from normally occurances or maybe something else is a miss.
Which valve your you suggest ?? I think the Forge is the best out there right now for our cars, till i get my Synapse(then i will see)
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 Old 04-03-2008, 10:18 AM   #18
 
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Where is the diaphragm on the MS3 forge unit?? Maybe its cuz im a n00b but I believe its a piston, not a diaphragm.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 10:23 AM   #19
 
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this might help !!!

The design philosophy behind Synchronic Blow-Off valve SB001
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 Old 04-03-2008, 10:26 AM   #20
 
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Just as I thought, the Forge is a piston BOV, not a diaphragm.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 10:30 AM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by Jesse MS3GT View Post
Just as I thought, the Forge is a piston BOV, not a diaphragm.
Yeah it uses a piston
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 Old 04-03-2008, 10:39 AM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by ptperformance View Post
I hate to say this but the Forge units are garabage. Check the diaphram and make sure there are no tears in it.

There are some normall flutter noises with most turboed cars, but you have to make sure its flutter from normally occurances or maybe something else is a miss.
I have to agree. Mine didnt work very well. Even with the redspring and two shims it didnt hold boost like this synapse.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 10:41 AM   #23
 
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can you compare down? if the synapse is not aval what would you say holds better then the forge right now ?
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 Old 04-03-2008, 10:53 AM   #24
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yeah what should I get then... I didnt know it was crap. What about the hks hybrid?

Whats the absolute best all money aside? I didnt think it was that big a deal.

Also.... I want to address that vacuum line Ive got hooked into the mani from the wastegate. When I come off throttle.... that mani line goes vacuum. All the air is supposed to shoot off the bpv back into the inlet right? But what if that mani line going vacuum, as opposed to that line being hooked right onto the hotside. What if it is causing the bpv to close prematurely and all the air to surge back at the turbo because its seeing vacuum instead of boost.

Does this make sense?

Im gonna change those lines and play around a little bit this weekend... but I want to understand as well!!!
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 Old 04-03-2008, 10:53 AM   #25
 
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Well with the boost pressures Driver was aiming for I wouldnt call the Forge a piece.

Edit. Was Laloosh the person upping the boost in the 20's?
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 Old 04-03-2008, 10:58 AM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by Jesse MS3GT View Post
Well with the boost pressures Driver was aiming for I wouldnt call the Forge a piece.
I ordered the new synapse valve after talking with them and hearing drivers review confirming what they have said... I think that the new design allows for a much better reacting valve, but i still believe the forge is a good piece.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 11:00 AM   #27
 
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Originally Posted by Jesse MS3GT View Post
Well with the boost pressures Driver was aiming for I wouldnt call the Forge a piece.

Edit. Was it Laloosh that was upping the boost in the 20's?
Either way amount of PSI doesn't seem to come into effect with (synapse) BOV it can run 6psi or 100psi its the design that makes it more efficient then the legacy. Ill have my answer once its installed tho
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 Old 04-03-2008, 11:07 AM   #28
 
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The synpase is the BPV I wanted to go with, but at the time I wanted to order it I thought a custom flange would need to be made.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 11:07 AM   #29
 
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Originally Posted by NYpest View Post
can you compare down? if the synapse is not aval what would you say holds better then the forge right now ?
HKS SSQV2!!!!! Synapse and HKS share the same basic design... HKS also handles a wide boost range...

Not trying to sell anyone on HKS, but I am very happy with mine so far!!!!
Here is some info: (sorry, I couldn't upload the original pdf due to size restrictions)
*expand or zoom into picture*
Attached Images
File Type: jpg HKS SSQV.jpg (516.4 KB, 29 views)
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 Old 04-03-2008, 11:10 AM   #30
 
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cool i haven't come across one ill check it out .... you enjoy it ??
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 Old 04-03-2008, 11:27 AM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by NYpest View Post
cool i haven't come across one ill check it out .... you enjoy it ??
I love mine... Its actually a little quieter than the stocker with an intake setup as recirculation, but as VTA its loud...it has a sweet flutter at low boost pressures and an awesome commanding pssshhhooo at high boost. The response compared to stock is also incredible... Thats one of the selling points of Synapse; reaction time of the valve.

I would be curious to see the difference in internals of Synapse and HKS...
These are the only two valves I know that do not require shims, springs, or adjustment. I originally wanted a Synapse, but they didn't have an application for our cars at the time...plus I'm not one to custom fit stuff...I love my direct bolt-on applications...
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 Old 04-03-2008, 11:30 AM   #32
 
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Originally Posted by AutoXRacer View Post
I love mine... Its actually a little quieter than the stocker with an intake setup as recirculation, but as VTA its loud...it has a sweet flutter at low boost pressures and an awesome commanding pssshhhooo at high boost. The response compared to stock is also incredible... Thats one of the selling points of Synapse; reaction time of the valve.

I would be curious to see the difference in internals of Synapse and HKS...
These are the only two valves I know that do not require shims, springs, or adjustment. I originally wanted a Synapse, but they didn't have an application for our cars at the time...plus I'm not one to custom fit stuff...I love my direct bolt-on applications...
looks expensive ? $350 but that on the hks website
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 Old 04-03-2008, 11:42 AM   #33
 
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Originally Posted by NYpest View Post
looks expensive ? $350 but that on the hks website
I bought mine from PG; the direct bolt-on kit for $275. It came all setup except that I had to convert it to recirculation (2 mins) and rotate the stock recirculation hose (10 mins) and bolt it up...

They have cheaper kits, but I've heard its a pain in the butt to put together...something about a C-clip and orienting the unit properly...
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 Old 04-03-2008, 11:45 AM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by AutoXRacer View Post
I bought mine from PG; the direct bolt-on kit for $275. It came all setup except that I had to convert it to recirculation (2 mins) and rotate the stock recirculation hose (10 mins) and bolt it up...

They have cheaper kits, but I've heard its a pain in the butt to put together...something about a C-clip and orienting the unit properly...
I ordered the synapse through them ..... cant wait to test it out ...i still think the forge is a great BPV for the MS3
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 Old 04-03-2008, 12:01 PM   #35
 
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Originally Posted by palerider View Post
Whats the absolute best all money aside? I didnt think it was that big a deal.

Also.... I want to address that vacuum line Ive got hooked into the mani from the wastegate. When I come off throttle.... that mani line goes vacuum. All the air is supposed to shoot off the bpv back into the inlet right? But what if that mani line going vacuum, as opposed to that line being hooked right onto the hotside. What if it is causing the bpv to close prematurely and all the air to surge back at the turbo because its seeing vacuum instead of boost.
you will not regret an HKS BOV

the Garrett ball bearing turbos do not come with a compressor housing vacuum port.
ATP should have given you a nipple to install in the silicone coupler off the turbo outlet

run the vacuum line from the wastegate to the nipple installed in the silicone coupler
This will get you a boost level baseline or at least tell you what your actuator is set at
Adjust your actuator rod to the desired boost level

then if you want to raise the boost, add your controller of choice at that point

*info direct from ATP

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 Old 04-03-2008, 05:14 PM   #36
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Get the Synapse man.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 06:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by NYpest View Post
Which valve your you suggest ?? I think the Forge is the best out there right now for our cars, till i get my Synapse(then i will see)
Oh hell no. Turbosmart is the best right now. You can get the adapter plates for the HKS or Greedy units but I have stacks of Greedy BOV's with stripped threads and blown diaphrams. I have more then one HKS that has blown off a car under very hard boost spikes (cheap snap rings). Get something that bolts on that will move the amount of air that you are pushing. Like one person said with the amount of money you have spent on this build up when mess around with 2nd rate BOV's. Build a custom unit that has a 50mm gate on it. Never have to worry about venting ever again.
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 Old 04-03-2008, 06:37 PM   #38
 
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Originally Posted by ptperformance View Post
Oh hell no. Turbosmart is the best right now. You can get the adapter plates for the HKS or Greedy units but I have stacks of Greedy BOV's with stripped threads and blown diaphrams. I have more then one HKS that has blown off a car under very hard boost spikes (cheap snap rings). Get something that bolts on that will move the amount of air that you are pushing. Like one person said with the amount of money you have spent on this build up when mess around with 2nd rate BOV's. Build a custom unit that has a 50mm gate on it. Never have to worry about venting ever again.
What about tials newest/largest BPV? The Alpha Q



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 Old 04-03-2008, 06:41 PM   #39
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looks like a bong...
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 Old 04-03-2008, 06:45 PM   #40
 
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^ its been dubbed the bong, for obvious reasons
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