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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Turbo Induction MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Turbo Induction - Have a turbo, intercooler, downpipe question? Anything turbo related belongs here!


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 Old 07-18-2008, 01:35 PM   #1
 
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Default GT Series Turbo Questions.

Well I've been running a GT2871R for about a month and a half now. Mainly with a mbc and sometimes ebc. So vacuum line hook up was pretty simple. Cap off the factory boost solenoid and intake vacuum port. And run the lines from the wastegate actuator and compressor or boost source nipple to the ebc/mbc.

So my question is; How do you hook up a GT series turbo to the factory boost solenoid? The GT28 comes with only 1 nipple on the wastegate actuator. And no nipples on the compressor housing. But they do supply a nipple to pop into the intercooler hose coming off the compressor outlet.

The factory turbo has 2 nipples on the actuator. 1 for the hose going to the compressor nipple. And 1 for the hose going to the factory boost solenoid.

My current setup for the factory boost solenoid is this; Run a line from the wastegate actuator to the compressor side nipple. But "tee" off the line in the middle and run it to the factory boost solenoid. Yes, the other side of the boost solenoid goes to the intake nipple. My problem is I can't seem to reach desired boost. I'm about 6psi short. I didn't have this problem running a ebc/mbc.

I sold my XEDE which I should of kept. But I was just offered a good deal on a Standback. (XEDE is easier to tune, but has less features than the SB.) So I went for the deal. Installed. Everything checks okay. Voltages are in check. But I just can't hit my boost marks. I set it to say 15psi. I only hit 11.4psi. I set it to 17psi. I only hit 11.4 may 12psi. I set it to 20psi. I still only hit 11's or 12's. I'm not using a DH to read my boost pressure. I'm reading it off the vacuum line from the bpv.

So where should I start? Is it because I do not have a "pill" in the compressor nipple? Maybe the hole is too big? Should I run the line to the vacuum off the bvp instead of the compressor side? How is everyone else running their GT30's with the factory boost solenoid? I may just stick the mbc back on till I figure this out. Sucks to be down 6-8psi!!! haha. Thanks for any help...
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 Old 07-18-2008, 06:12 PM   #2
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here you go... all the info youd ever need. if you have any questions after reading that thread and folling the links...post it up.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-question.html
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 Old 07-18-2008, 08:29 PM   #3
 
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Thanks for the info.

So what setup did you go with? Did you change out the WGA? Or did you just use the quick tap? I'm currently (and have been) using the quick tap. Maybe I should try and tee it differently....? I don't think I have a 14.7psi spring in my WGA. When I put the turbo on for the very first time, I just ran the line from the WGA to the quick tap (same exact location in the pic on the ATP site linked) and left the stock boost control solenoid capped off. So my boost was all mechanical at the time. It would only reach 9-10psi.

Hmmmmmmmm..............
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 Old 07-18-2008, 09:07 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by JimmyMac View Post
Thanks for the info.

So what setup did you go with? Did you change out the WGA? Or did you just use the quick tap? I'm currently (and have been) using the quick tap. Maybe I should try and tee it differently....? I don't think I have a 14.7psi spring in my WGA. When I put the turbo on for the very first time, I just ran the line from the WGA to the quick tap (same exact location in the pic on the ATP site linked) and left the stock boost control solenoid capped off. So my boost was all mechanical at the time. It would only reach 9-10psi.

Hmmmmmmmm..............
you got to put the restrictor in the line bro..... i had the exact same problem. they talk about the size in the link in that thread.

after i put it in.... my turbo held like a charm..... you may need to mess with the pid settings on the standback though. nice oppurtunity for some street tuning once you get the restrictor in there.

even without tuning the PID values.... you'll still hold boost though. It just wont be real smooth unless you get lucky.
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 Old 07-18-2008, 09:52 PM   #5
 
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Thanks for your help. NC crew ftw!! I'll have to play around with that this weekend. I'll post up my results.
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 Old 07-19-2008, 08:25 AM   #6
 
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Yup, did some research on the restrictor pill.
Scribd
Get your own at Scribd or explore others:
]How Subaru\'s Factory Boost Control System Works v1[1
Pages 5~7 explains it all! I have no restrictor pill. Therefore I can never reach my boost targets!! Guess I'll be shopping around locally for something to use as a restrictor pill.
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 Old 07-19-2008, 03:08 PM   #7
 
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Okay. I made a pill. First try was at .0625". But I would only hit 14psi when my SB is set to 18. Next try was at .035". This time I was able to hold boost at 17.8 at times. Sometimes I would see spikes at 20psi. Somes 19psi. Sometimes 21psi. But my power is back! Too bad it started to rain though. Did some nice pulls 1~4th gear. No fuel/boost cut. So far so good. Now I just have to play with the PID stuff. But I'll save that for later. I have to decide what I want next.... The CPe flash... or the Cobb STS? Hmmmmm? Still waiting on my PG manifold to arrive too.....

Thanks for your help Randy. Much appreciated!!

P.S. For those who want to know. My hose/pill setup is just like in the Subaru pics.
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 Old 07-19-2008, 06:27 PM   #8
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glad to see it worked out. i feel so helpful...

i'll be taking questions for the next 30 minutes if anybody thinks of something...lol
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 Old 07-19-2008, 06:36 PM   #9
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I think it would help others if you had pictures of the problem and what you did you fix it. Pictures tell a 1000 words! Thanks
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 Old 07-20-2008, 08:01 AM   #10
 
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I couldn't find any jets around locally. But I'll be ordering some NOS ones. Different sizes. I'll post pics of those when I get them. But I don't know how long that'll be. What I ended up doing was using some welding contact tips. They have tiny holes in them for different size wires. The one I bought was .035" wire. I cut it in half and that was my pill. Bought them at Lowes. It was the only thing I could find that closely matched a "pill". The biggest hole ones they had were the .035". They also had I think .020" and .025". Something like that.

Using the Subaru guide will show you how to route your hoses. Where to put the pill. And what a pill looks like. For those that do not know. The stock turbo has a pill pressed into the compressor housing fitting. I'll take pics of that later on.

Reading those links helped alot. But I'll try and condense some of that info here. If some of the info I post seems wrong or out of place, let me know. I'll update it.
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 Old 07-23-2008, 12:07 PM   #11
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Jimmy, using the tip of a welding torch is a great idea! I'll have to pass that on because that's probably a better option than nitrous jets and whatnot. So thanks for sharing that info.
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 Old 07-23-2008, 03:11 PM   #12
 
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The tips were like $8 for a set of 10. You basically just cut them in half and you are set. Unless if you want the hole bigger, then you either need to find different size tips, or drill them out.

By the way... how much are Nos jets??

CPe, get that article finalized and post it up!
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 Old 07-27-2008, 07:06 PM   #13
 
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subbing... im getting ready to instal the GT2871R
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 Old 07-28-2008, 07:33 AM   #14
 
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Where in NC are ya? If you are doing it yourself, it's a real PITA!!!! Make sure you have a spare/loaner car. Also, make sure you have the ATP 3" inlet pipe. Otherwise you would somehow need to find or make a 4" to 2" reducer (something like that). You may also need some extra fuel/coolant line. One of the lines on the bottom is not long enough. Not sure if the top one is long enough either. I managed to stretch it on. But it would of been better to replace it with a longer one. I will do that when I receive my PG manifold.
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 Old 07-28-2008, 04:17 PM   #15
 
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PITA, really... I am putting a "kit" together, PG headers, still have to get the fuel pump, gt28 and the atp inlet, along with the standback. My car only has 5000 miles on it... so its not going to be on right away. So this is good for me to plan things out.... I am in Fayetteville.
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 Old 07-28-2008, 05:26 PM   #16
 
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Fayettenam huh. Lemme know if you do any installs. I may swing over if you need any help. I'm only about 1hour 15 or so minutes from ya. What side of Fay to you live?

Yes, the GT28 was a PITA. I would rather shit my pants at work every day for a month rather than taking that thing back out! I can't even figure out how I got it in there in the first place. Did you have a hard time installing your CPe DP? It's kinda like that. At least for me it was.

Anyways, I'm gonna try another restrictor "pill". Gonna try a smaller one and see what the results are. I can give you one if it works out. Then let you try it out once you do your install. Make sure you have a boost gauge so you know what's going on. Otherwise you'll be clueless if you are hitting your targets or not set by the SB. Obviously the DashHawk won't read the correct levels since the SB will "clamp" the map.
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 Old 07-28-2008, 07:18 PM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by JimmyMac View Post
Yes, the GT28 was a PITA. I would rather shit my pants at work every day for a month rather than taking that thing back out! I can't even figure out how I got it in there in the first place. Did you have a hard time installing your CPe DP? It's kinda like that. At least for me it was.
i LOLed...hard.
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 Old 07-28-2008, 07:25 PM   #18
 
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The DP was a bitch to get off, but after that it was easy. I was looking at the stock headers and thinking that I should have replaced them at the same time, that is going to be a bitch to get off... But I am so glad that some one else is doing this before me, so I can see how its done. Is your standback hooked up yet? if so, are you running custom settings from CP-e? I was thinking that the settings that come with the standback are for the stock turbo?
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 Old 07-29-2008, 01:11 PM   #19
 
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Actually taking off the stock exhaust manifold was easy for me. You just need an assortment of 14mm wrenches. An offset 14mm wrench is a must on this car. I have a Craftsman 14mm/12mm offset that I used. I also use a Gear Wrench 14mm pivot type head wrench. Works great in those odd angle places.

The SB has been on the car for about 2 weeks now. I've been running the map that came with the cd. It's meant for the cai, dp, and cb. But so far it's been running well on my car. A/F has been in the high 11's to low 12's on my data logs with my dashhawk. But I'm sure for the winter I'm gonna have to add a few points for the fuel. I'm also set to 20psi as well. I spike to 21~22psi. But I have yet to really keep track of where it's holding at right now. Been kinda busy here registoring/prepping for college. That's about done. So I can get back to working on this "restrictor pill" deal.

I wouldn't run the map off the cd until you have tested without it. Run a blank map and go from there. Slowly up your boost until you know you are safe. Data log if you can to see if your a/f is in check. We could use my dh if you don't have one. Or you can use the sb to data log. But I have yet to try that.

Anyways, if you want me to stop on by one weekend let me know. You can check out what kind of mess I have under the hood. See what's involved.
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 Old 07-29-2008, 02:50 PM   #20
 
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nice... well have to plan something. Are you heading down to murtle beach for EECMM?

So Im not thread jacking.... as of right now, you are using the stand back to control your boost?
How is the Standback viewing your boost levels? through the WGA? or is that what the pill inside of the line is for?

yes... noob question!

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 Old 07-30-2008, 08:04 AM   #21
 
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Basically, when using the StandBack, the GT2871R is still using the factory boost control solenoid. So what the StandBack does is take control over that factory boost control solenoid to meet your preset boost targets. So all your vacuum/boost lines will basically be connected as they were with the stock turbo. But with a few changes. Just click on the Subaru link on the 6th post. The picture in there will show you exactly how my vacuum/boost lines are hooked up, and where to install the pill.

The stock turbo already has a restrictor pill pressed into the metal fitting on the compressor housing. So you can not use that. That's why you need to find or make your own restrictor pill, and install it in the vacuum line as shown in the Subaru pics. The restrictor pill (from how I gather it) meter's how much air both the wastegate actuator and factory boost solenoid will receive. If it receives too much, then they will not function properly. It may not be able to react and will not reach your boost targets.

Basically, from my research, if the restrictor pill hole is too large, you will not be able to reach your boost targets. It will fall short. This is why, when I ran without one, I could not reach my boost targets. I would set the StandBack to 18psi. And I would only reach maybe 12psi.

If the restrictor pill hole is too small, you will have large boost spikes. You may hit your targets and hold it there, but you may over spike before you do so. Like right now I'm using a pill with a .035" hole. My StandBack is set to 20psi. I see spikes of around 21~22psi. Which is not bad at all. But I'm not sure if I'm holding my boost target. Meaning, I could spike to 21psi. Then it would drop down to 18psi and hold it through the gear. If this is the case, I may have to go to a smaller hole. But I will have to watch my boost spikes and make a compromise somewhere.

Hope this makes sense. Oh, and I believe the StandBack uses the MAP senor on the intake manifold to read your boost pressure. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

On a side note..... when is the meet for EECMM? I thought I read about it somewhere. But I wasn't sure if I could/would go or not.
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 Old 07-30-2008, 01:54 PM   #22
 
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Thanks for explaining... i definitely have a better picture in my mind now...!

EECMM is aug 16 and 17 in murtle beach... should be a pretty big meet.
here is their web site if you want to check it out
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 Old 08-01-2008, 09:14 AM   #23
 
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Are any of you guys seeing boost creep? We are after having done the FullControl Flash to open the throttle plate. Here's a post I made over at M6club.

Well so what we have fellas is an improperly designed exhaust housing/wastegate from ATP. I set Brian's car to 18 psi and played around with the PID parameters to get the boost dialed but we kept seeing creep in his car. I datalogged everything with the standback so that we could be sure and here is the data:





The WGopt term is the wastegate solenoid. When it goes to zero, it is opening the wastegate 100% to bleed exhaust off to keep boost in check. You can see that at around 5900 rpm this term zeros out and boost creeps upward of 22 psi. As was stated before, ATP did not have access to the flash and their throttle was closing well before this so they would have had no reason to reach the upper rpms. Brian has a sub 10 psi wastegate actuator spring and his actuator arm is elongated as much as possible to allow full opening of the wastegate. At this point we can try porting the wastegate to allow more exhaust flow out of it or weld it shut and fab up an external gate. For now he'll be safe below 6K but ATP should significantly redesign their wastegate opening.

This is the email I sent to ATP. I suggest that people send similar emails to them to get them to address an inadequate WG design that shows up in the higher rpms.

Hello, I am an owner of P3 Performance, LLC. We are a install/tuning shop affiliated with Custom Performance Engineering in Maryland. We have installed two of your turbos on Mazdaspeed6s - one was a 3071, the other a 2871. We've seen boost creep on both cars. We tested the wastegate spring on the 2871 and it was sub 10psi and we elongated the actuator arm to ensure full WG opening. The turbo was installed with a 0.046" restricted pressure source tapped into the compressor housing so that that the factory WG solenoid could control boost. We are using cp-e's Standback to control the boost and have been datalogging runs. I have the files and can email them. What we see is that at rpms greater than 5900, the wastegate solenoid goes to zero holding the wastegate open completely. Boost setting was 18 psi and holding perfectly until 5900 at which time it creeps to above 22 psi before 6300 rpm. The same scenario occurs with the 3071. You may not be aware of a throttle plate flash developed by cp-e that keeps the throttle plate from closing at 5500 rpm. I believe that this TP flash has unearthed a problem with your exhaust housing/WG design that will be problematic as more customers purchase your turbo and start holding their cars at WOT to higher rpms.

I need a suggestion from you about how to deal with this creep situation as I don't want my customers blowing their motors.
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 Old 08-01-2008, 10:45 AM   #24
 
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Have you tried a larger pill? If the pill is too small. It can create boost creep. Read this here from Cobb... first paragraph. You can read more if you like. CobbTuning.com - Service Bulletin: 07 WRX/STi Overboosting with Catless Exhaust
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 Old 08-01-2008, 11:37 AM   #25
 
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On Yoichi's car we tried a 0.046", a 0.055" and no pill at all - wastegate spring. We saw creep each time. With Brian's car, we're controlling boost effectively at the lower rpms but as the motor revs and more exhaust is produced, it can't be blead effectively. We're speculating that b/c ATP designed this on a car with a closing TP at 5500, they never saw a need to get into the higher rev range and never observed the problem. Now that we can make power higher, we can't control the boost on their turbos.
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 Old 08-01-2008, 12:39 PM   #26
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great, that means ill have to run 12 psi and have it creep to 18 by redline...i could live with that lol
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 Old 08-01-2008, 01:22 PM   #27
 
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Actually, I think b/c the 35r spools so much later that creep hasn't been that big of an issue. I think Whoosh only sees 1-2 psi creep. The 2871 and 3071 especially have it bad. We're looking in to the prospect of porting the WG or going external.
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 Old 08-01-2008, 04:26 PM   #28
 
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So in short. Don't get the throttle flash.... haha. Could you do a dummy fix and put a weaker spring on the bpv to leak boost back to the intake?

I guess I'll find out later in the year if/when I get the flash. Thanks for the heads up. Keep us posted.
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 Old 08-01-2008, 05:38 PM   #29
 
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We've got a 2871 on the way. We'll be experimenting with porting the WG or going external. Here's the response from ATP:

Hi Jason,

It is possible that with the additional throttle available at the high
RPM's to induce creep. If this is the the case, the only thing that
can be done is to por the turbine housing for an improved flowpath
(just like any case of creep due to internal gate).

However, you should confirm for sure if it's the pill that is causing
a dropout in pressure to the actuator can. Can you test that? Can
you remove the restrictor pill and see if the creep problem remains?


Thank you.
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 Old 08-01-2008, 10:24 PM   #30
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por the turbine housing?
I just got off the phone wiht atp like 3 hours ago....they said 14lb srping, no problems reported....fucken bullshit
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 Old 08-01-2008, 10:36 PM   #31
 
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I say try a mbc. I don't think the stock solenoid is properly controling the wg. Even at 100% dc, it might not be able to cause the wg to open 100%. It's worth a shot, and nothing really harmful can come from it as long as you know how to adjust the mbc correctly.
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 Old 08-02-2008, 07:56 AM   #32
 
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Yeah, I don't really understand this either. When I first put the turbo on the car, I had no pill and a direct hose from wga to compressor nipple. I could only hit or spike to 9psi. This was kind of my "valet" mode while the car was at the dealer getting the recalls done. So I'm also thinking factory solenoid too. But then again, I don't have 100% throttle controll.

Simple test is for those with the ATP turbos and flash is to disconnect the stock solenoid and run a direct hose. Or do what ATE is saying and run it with a mbc. I would get the flash next week and try this myself. But I just paid tuition for my college. So it's not something I can budget in right now. Otherwise I'd be all over it.

Oh a side note. I'm still running my .035" pill. My SB is set to 20psi. This morning, getting off of work, I did a 3rd gear through 4th gear pull. I spiked to about 20~20.5psi and held about 19~19.5psi. So for me, so far so good. I might leave it there. Or I might try my .025" welding tips. I should of bought the .030" welding tips to try. But if I have time this weekend, I'll do the .025" since I have those on hand.
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 Old 08-02-2008, 09:09 AM   #33
 
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Originally Posted by ATE BALLER View Post
I say try a mbc. I don't think the stock solenoid is properly controling the wg. Even at 100% dc, it might not be able to cause the wg to open 100%. It's worth a shot, and nothing really harmful can come from it as long as you know how to adjust the mbc correctly.
We tried two different restrictors and then no restrictor at all in the hose - effectively running mechanically controlled boost with the WG spring. We saw creep in excess of 5 psi in every attempt we made.

The WG is not large enough to bleed adequate exhaust and you get creep.
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 Old 09-15-2008, 12:17 AM   #34
 
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Hey guys, sorry for interrupting without introducing myself first, but I could not help adding my own experience with ATP turbo kits for the MPS.

Our tuning company from Greece uses the Piasini tools for custom reflashing.
That means that we develop our own software mods, we just use Christian's tools for getting whatever we've designed inside the ECU.
So we have had a few cases of clients with stage 1 ECU upgrades.

Last week a customer with Mazda 3 MPS (decat exhaust, ATP intake, upgraded IC) bought and installed a GT3071 from ATP.
We asked him to connect the wastegate actuator nipple directly to a boost source, since the ATP kit is not designed to be used with the stock boost control solenoid. (Why else would they sell it with a 1.2+ bar actuator?)

When he brought the car, we noticed that not only could we not control boost, but the boost also climbed to very dangerous levels for the stock rods and pistons. Exactly like the logs posted earlier in this page, we would get something like 1.5bars of boost at 6000rpm (and a boost cut of course).

Apart from the problems with boost, when I compared the wideband O2 sensor readings (which we installed for the tests) to the AFR target (which you can log if you connect any advanced OBD2 tool) I noticed a big difference in high revs. So the engine is getting lean, the boost is too much and there is no other way of lowering boost other than loosening the WG actuator tensioner.

That's what we did, tried testing again, this time with an (almost) 1.0bar WG actuator. Similar boost creep, goes up to 1.2 bars at the rev limit which is acceptable. But the fueling is definately inadequate.


I don't really know what these guys at ATP did, but I would like to hear your comments, too. There is absolutely no way this kit can be used as a bolt-on.


P.S. Using the upgraded MAF housing makes the engine run too lean.
It is no reliable solution.
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 Old 09-18-2008, 07:34 AM   #35

 
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I have been speaking to atp about this.

They are working on incorporating a wastegate port directly on the exhaust housing for a 44mm wastegate.

I think i'll be buying this exhaust side once they finish it.

Until then, im running a .045" pill, i thought this was too large once i put it in. Boost was still pausing at 9psi until it started to climb at like 5200rpms.

That makes sense as to why you guys are running .035 and wanting to still step it down.
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 Old 09-18-2008, 08:04 AM   #36
 
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so if they incorporate the WG on the exhaust side of the turbo,would that be considerd running external wastegate?
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 Old 09-18-2008, 09:51 AM   #37
 
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I think for me, the .035" pill is perfect for the GT2871R and stock boost control solenoid. You can hit your boost targets with spikes of 1-2psi. Any smaller I would probably spike 2-4 psi over. Anything larger and I can't hit my boost targets. I don't have the throttle flash. So I have no worries of boost creep. Maybe in a year or two, I'll start to worry about it (if) I build my motor and move to a larger turbo, or if I get the flash. By then we should have better options to choose from (I hope.) Or maybe by then we'll have an awd MS3!! That would be sweet!
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 Old 09-30-2008, 06:13 PM   #38
 
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Have you dyno'd your car yet Jimmy? I am on the line now with the GT28 and GT3071
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 Old 09-30-2008, 07:34 PM   #39
 
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Honestly, I've been kinda lazy with my car since starting school. I'm STILL waiting on my PG V2 manifold to come in!!!! It was suppose to have been sent off to be ceramic coated July 30th!!! Still no word! 2 F'n months and no info on the deal. Once it's in, I can start street tuning. Then dyno afterwards, then hit a local track and try and get some times in before I blow the engine.

Also, I switched from full time work to part time work since I'm now going to college full time. So money was kinda low. But now that my GI Bill has kicked in, I'm back on top of things. I also still need to find a place to dyno. There are no options locally. So I need to head out of town. Isn't there one in Fayettenam?
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Bad news, PG should be getting my manifold back from the ceramic guys. Please tell me there is no dyno in Fayetteville!! lol Trying to hold off as long as I can! Well at least I can use mid term exams as an excuse for at least a week!
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