Lets talk about Bigger Throttle Bodies

[superskaterxes]

whats your idle problem?

[Tomas]

Swanks between 1200 and about 1800 rpm. I am thinking the stop screw for the second stop, the metal disc (not the plastic one) is too far out.

[superskaterxes]

wtf is swanks lol

[Boosten Ya(josh)]

Did you adjust the DBW tables?

[Tomas]

The DBW tables will do nothing to fix this.

adj., swank·er, swank·est.

Imposingly fashionable or elegant; grand. See synonyms at fashionable.
Ostentatious; pretentious.

n.

Smartness in style or bearing; elegance.
Swagger.


intr.v., swanked, swank·ing, swanks.
To act ostentatiously or pretentiously; swagger.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Boosten Ya(josh) Did you adjust the DBW tables?

I believe the DBW table will only alter/adjust driveability above idle conditions. Remember, it is the mapping between APP and throttle plate...if you are not mashing on the pedal there is nothing to "map" or translate.

edit: Anthony put me in my place and I am w..w....wro....wrong.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Dano I believe the DBW table will only alter/adjust driveability above idle conditions. Remember, it is the mapping between APP and throttle plate...if you are not mashing on the pedal there is nothing to "map" or translate.

DBW is RPM/L with throttle opening as the Z axis. you can adjust your throttle open angle all you want at idle with this table just by going to the respective cell.

[Dano]

cool...I guess I have never looked at my load at idle and assumed it would be below the lowest cell value...

I stand corrected.

[Boosten Ya(josh)]

So you can adjust the values for idle? Assuming your car won't idle properly.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Dano cool...I guess I have never looked at my load at idle and assumed it would be below the lowest cell value... I stand corrected.

i think idle load is like .18 or something and im pretty sure the table goes all the way to 0 lol

i havent even started thinking about this yet as im waiting on this TB to come back from CNC haha

[Dano]

yessir.

goes from 0 -.06 -.13 -.19 -.25 -.31 etc.

haha hardware first software second.

[mrmonk7663]

I just installed a throttle body that I had Cordova Motorsports work for me. He bored the stocker out a small amount, and cut the bar off on one side, shaved it some on the backside to increase the airflow, and tapered the throttle plate a litttle. There is a difference in response that is noticeable. Idles just like before.

[Tomas]

^ I would assume that TB you have has the OEM blade. When you bore out the TB and use a bigger blade the stops on the TB for the blade which the ECU uses to regulate idle stability will be off.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes DBW is RPM/L with throttle opening as the Z axis. you can adjust your throttle open angle all you want at idle with this table just by going to the respective cell.

Based on what I saw when I was tuning for the large throttle body I think the values may be mislabeled. I think the values may be duty cycle and not % requested throttle opening.

[06Speed6]

You guys finished yet?

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Erich Based on what I saw when I was tuning for the large throttle body I think the values may be mislabeled. I think the values may be duty cycle and not % requested throttle opening.

not disputing your theory at all, but how would "duty cycle" relate to hardware that is neither on nor off but a continuous variable like the throttle blade? I mean your BC solenoid is either on or off thus its "duty cycle" per measure of time.

trying to understand how that would work in the throttle plate scenario.

flame suit is at 100% DC right now

[superskaterxes]

the TB operates on a PWM signal so thats prob what he means by DC

[Dano]

O I C

[Erich]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes the TB operates on a PWM signal so thats prob what he means by DC

This. I could be wrong, just seems more of a fit for explaining the impacts of editing the DBW table.

[mrmonk7663]

Yes it uses the stock blade.

Originally Posted by Tomas ^ I would assume that TB you have has the OEM blade. When you bore out the TB and use a bigger blade the stops on the TB for the blade which the ECU uses to regulate idle stability will be off.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by Tomas Meh. I wish I had moar smarts. This TB business is kicking my ass. The maxbore TB I have just doesn't want to idle right. I am at the point where I replaced the stop screws with larger one protruding through the lid so I can adjust them without taking of the TB but I still haven't figured out how to adjust them for a stable idle. It just swanks. By the time I have this right there will be bigger plug and play TBs. lol

This is very known to happen with maxbore Tb specially with hondas
good way to it adjust is plug it on the car and put a volt meter on signal wire for tp1 and tp2 to measuring voltage
While adjust the set screw the will change will change tp 1 and tp 2. Here is a good link that the honda guys have For adjustment so you can get a ideal
DIY: Throttle Body Calibration Procedure - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH This is very known to happen with maxbore Tb specially with hondas good way to it adjust is plug it on the car and put a volt meter on signal wire for tp1 and tp2 to measuring voltage While adjust the set screw the will change will change tp 1 and tp 2. Here is a good link that the honda guys have For adjustment so you can get a ideal DIY: Throttle Body Calibration Procedure - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

Man, that's exactly what I needed. Many thanks. I suspected the unstable idle was due to the set screw being too far out now I know I am on the right path. As for voltage, should I use 0.40 V to 0.60 for TP1? what about TP2? 4.40 to 4.60V? But isn't that the fully open position and not the voltage of the second stop?

[superskaterxes]

hello PTFE!!!!!!!

[PapaSmurf]

this thread is hawt

[Dano]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes hello PTFE!!!!!!!

I don't think those scissors are gonna "cut it"

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Dano I don't think those scissors are gonna "cut it"

thats why i bought this!!!!!

[Dano]

um...yup I think that should do it

[pinkcheese]

Just to clarify DBW is using a stepper motor, these do not operate off a square wave signal. A square wave signal with only 2 variables On and Off. The square wave is merely a measure of either On or Off over a given predetermined time frame. Stepper motors like that of the DBW system operate off a sin wave for the most part. This allows use to keep the throttle open at set angles, and has a high accuracy especially when used with a separate sensor such as a TPS which gives feed back to the computer to monitor the angle of the throttle plate based on the center shaft position. This accuracy is achieved by literally recalibrating the throttle plate, youll hear it buzzing from time to time this is because the stepper motor has pushed the plate back to this set screw position. The throttle has a factory set screw which is a specific TPS % and the computer knows to use this constant to sync up the TPS to stepper motor.


Taking this into consideration the value you are looking at won't be a duty cycle. I believe you to be on point with the % value. Sense duty cycles are square wave.

[Tomas]

So how do the 2 stops interact with each other?

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by pinkcheese Just to clarify DBW is using a stepper motor, these do not operate off a square wave signal. A square wave signal with only 2 variables On and Off. The square wave is merely a measure of either On or Off over a given predetermined time frame. Stepper motors like that of the DBW system operate off a sin wave for the most part. This allows use to keep the throttle open at set angles, and has a high accuracy especially when used with a separate sensor such as a TPS which gives feed back to the computer to monitor the angle of the throttle plate based on the center shaft position. This accuracy is achieved by literally recalibrating the throttle plate, youll hear it buzzing from time to time this is because the stepper motor has pushed the plate back to this set screw position. The throttle has a factory set screw which is a specific TPS % and the computer knows to use this constant to sync up the TPS to stepper motor. Taking this into consideration the value you are looking at won't be a duty cycle. I believe you to be on point with the % value. Sense duty cycles are square wave.

Ummm have you ever seen this signal wave before?
Also that set screw when the motor push it back doesn't mean Nuttin. I got RX 8 thottle body to work and it doesn't have a screw stopper for the TB just one screw. As long the PCM output that value and it see that same input it will work..

[06Speed6]

I have thought it was a stepper for a while now.

[superskaterxes]

so after working with this material a little bit yesterday i think i have decided to make the spacer 1/2" so that it provides a little more flex to ensure a good seal. Im going to cut it in half and make my own spacer at home so i can finish actually testing this thing on my car before i go spend ~$250 to get the first one made at the CNC shop.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by pinkcheese youll hear it buzzing from time to time this is because the stepper motor has pushed the plate back to this set screw position.

not that this matters but this sound you speak of is it the sound we hear 5 seconds after you turn the car off every time? It the TP recalibrating? it sounds long enough to be going to full open then close again.

I used to think it was the VCTS closing but I deleted that a month back.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Dano not that this matters but this sound you speak of is it the sound we hear 5 seconds after you turn the car off every time? It the TP recalibrating? it sounds long enough to be going to full open then close again. I used to think it was the VCTS closing but I deleted that a month back.

it does it with key-on as well. and the TP only moves like 10-15 degrees when this happens.

[realsquash]

The Mazda and most DBW TB's don't use stepper motors, they use servo motors. Basically if you apply power to the motor's leads the throttle blade will fling open or closed with the quickness and probably break something (a stepper won't). They use the two TPS sensors as feedback to what's called a PID loop.

The engine computer "tells" the motor to start opening up at a certain speed and when it starts to reach the desired position it will actually move back and forth a tiny amount. It uses PWM to control the motor, but it reverses direction constantly. It's like when you try to balance a basketball on your finger. You have to keep moving your arm back and forth to keep the ball in the right spot so it doesn't fall off. Exactly the same concept.

So when you're trying to adapt a DBW TB from another platform keep in mind that the motor probably works exactly the same way, but the TPS's might work differently. Some use a hall effect sensor, some use other goofy things. They are almost never mechanical pots with a wiper any more.

The Mazda uses two hall-effect sensors that are 180 degrees opposite each other. There are also two really small magnets mounted on the throttle shaft that get farther away from the HE sensor, and change its output voltage, as the shaft turns. They are not simple pots so they can't be treated like pots even though they appear to put out 0-5vdc.

Andy

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH This is very known to happen with maxbore Tb specially with hondas good way to it adjust is plug it on the car and put a volt meter on signal wire for tp1 and tp2 to measuring voltage While adjust the set screw the will change will change tp 1 and tp 2. Here is a good link that the honda guys have For adjustment so you can get a ideal DIY: Throttle Body Calibration Procedure - 8th Generation Honda Civic Forum

Guess I'm lucky... I installed my Maxbore when I first got it and everything idles just fine...


Sent from my iPhone using lame ass Tapatalk

[bcmurphy87]

any updates here?

[Erich]

Originally Posted by bcmurphy87 any updates here?

One year and still running strong.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes i personally was having some wierd issues up top on the dyno but you can see how much smoother the boost is with the JMF mani vs stock because of the larger plenum. seeing as how i diddent tune anything after i put it on and gained 40whp then im sure theres more to be had in the airflow department with some tuning. also if i had revved out to 7500 i could easily have gained another 50hp with the way the hp was climbing still at RL haha. P.S. if anyone is interested in the TB its going to be offered through pablo. Him and i worked extensively on this and its 100% PnP (with the exception of swapping 2 pins in the stock connector). it even has the stock bolt pattern!!!! im not sure where he wants to put pricing at but expect it to be reasonable.

Which TB did you end up using?

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by Erich Which TB did you end up using?

same as u but i swapped covers to make it pnp