register gallery
 

Go Back   Mazdaspeed Forums >
MAZDASPEED SECTION
>
Mazdaspeed 3/6 MZR Gen1 Forums (2006-2009)
> MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes

MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


Welcome to Mazdaspeed Forums .

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

*When you join MSF as a registered user, there will be No Ads.

*Registered Members get access to the Off Topic Area of the Forum

*Registered Members have an opportunity to upgrade their accounts to VIP, which brings a host of goddies for supporting MSF such as Raffles, Additional Forum Access, More PM Storage, The ability to upload more Images and many other enhancements.

*Registered members also get access to the live chat box!
Reply
 
Bookmark and Share LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 Old 04-09-2008, 04:42 AM   #1
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default Anyone riding on MS Coil-overs or Springs?

I would like to hear about MS coilovers or springs...

I'm trying to decide on springs or coilovers... I would love some coilovers, but at $1K or more I don't know if I'll be able to justify that...

All I'm looking for is to increase front end traction (reduce wheel-spin) by reducing the weight transfer to the rear; damn car feels like a seesaw...
In addition, I'm looking to firm up high-speed stability and reduce that floating...

Thanks!!
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-09-2008, 04:48 AM   #2
Banned
 
phailerider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,639   (View Stats)
iTrader: (11)
Rep Power: 0
phailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the world
Thanks: 761
Thanked 2,323 Times in 966 Posts
Groans: 49
Groaned at 179 Times in 125 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Im on the coilovers.... I dont get any wheel hop and the car feels like a fire hydrant. I highly recommend them. The ride is definitely harsher....but in a good way. With all my power.... when Im into it on the windies the coilovers make a HUGE difference from before. Drop looks good too. Im on the recommended settings.... I havent fiddled with them since they went on.
phailerider is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-09-2008, 05:20 AM   #3
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Are you on the MS coilovers? Did you also install the camber arms?
Did it really drastically improve traction? I'm not looking to lower the car or anything...maybe 0.5"-1.0" at most.

Thanks for the info!!

I was looking at the BCs and they seem like a bang for your buck...but the vast amount of adjustment scares me away from them. I'm looking for something to tune (easily tuned) and pretty much forget...

Also, did you find with your coilovers that you gained a little more clearance between the tires and the shock/strut?
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-09-2008, 05:30 AM   #4
Banned
 
phailerider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,639   (View Stats)
iTrader: (11)
Rep Power: 0
phailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the world
Thanks: 761
Thanked 2,323 Times in 966 Posts
Groans: 49
Groaned at 179 Times in 125 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Im on ms coilovers yes. I cant say I gained a ton more clearance because I dont know what it was previously.

Im dropped about 1.25-1.4 front and back.... max drop for them. Ive got the spc adjustable camber arms for the rear. I havent installed them. I like the camber Ive got now and my tires arent wearing to unevenly. Ive got about 10,000 miles on this setup and tires.... they havent been rotated yet. i was going to do it soon.... tires still look good..youd never guess there was even an issue with camber and wear.

I dont know if im going to put those arms on.... if you decide you want some hit me up.... theyre brand new in the box from PG. I just had second thoughts after driving the car as long as I have... alignment was never an issue. Put the coilovers on and the car was aligned but nothing really even neeeded to be done.
phailerider is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to phailerider For This Useful Post:
AutoXRacer (04-09-2008)
 Old 04-09-2008, 05:39 AM   #5
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Thanks palerider... The info helps.

I might just have to starting getting used to the idea of dishing out $1K-$1.3K for suspension...

Oh and tell me about adjustability... What can you adjust on them besides height?
Do you think you can tune them to be as comfortable as stock?
So you don't find a need for camber plates up front either...?

Thanks again!!
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-09-2008, 05:59 AM   #6
Banned
 
phailerider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,639   (View Stats)
iTrader: (11)
Rep Power: 0
phailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the worldphailerider is the leader of the world
Thanks: 761
Thanked 2,323 Times in 966 Posts
Groans: 49
Groaned at 179 Times in 125 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

The front drop stayed within factory spec for camber remarkably. The back went slightly out of the spec recommendations... Im thinking i the 3-4* range... geez dont hold me to that though.

Like i said... there just hasnt been an issue. I dialed in the factory dampening spec.... rolled em the hell down... installed.... drove off and..... very nice!!

Huge difference and the car didnt pull that day!!!! i still went to get aligned a couple days later... they jimmied a little with front toe... but i dont think it was really even necessary. Toe was in spec... we just went from a little toe out to in I think.

I dont know about making it feel stock.... why would you? I think with all the settings though you could come awful close. I think you could make it a hell of a lot stiffer than i got it too.
phailerider is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-09-2008, 10:34 AM   #7
 
ZooZoom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: So.Cal
Posts: 178   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
ZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to all
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I'm on the MS springs and rear camber links. Been riding & tracking the car with them for 20K miles or more. For the cheaper investment, they offer a good return.

You don't get as dramatic a "slammed" look as with the coilovers. And I'm sure the coilovers offer advantages worth their price.

The ride with the MS springs is noticably stiffer but by no means harsh. Turn-in and cornering stability/roll control is quite improved.
ZooZoom is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-10-2008, 05:23 AM   #8
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Yeah, not really interested in a "slammed" look...

More of a performance enhancement...

Thanks for the feedback!!

I'm really trying to convince myself to go with the coilovers...
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-10-2008, 06:17 AM   #9
 
TurboWagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Charlotte, N.C.
Posts: 227   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
TurboWagon is a splendid one to beholdTurboWagon is a splendid one to beholdTurboWagon is a splendid one to beholdTurboWagon is a splendid one to beholdTurboWagon is a splendid one to beholdTurboWagon is a splendid one to behold
Thanks: 53
Thanked 19 Times in 17 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I think that either way you go, you are going to want what you don't have. Here is what I think you should do...

1. Buy MS Springs
2. Install and Test
3a. Love them and keep them (see 4a)
3b. Hate them and sell them to TurboWagon (see4b)
4a. Give us a report
4b. Buy MS Coilovers
5. Give us a report

From experience, I dont think coilovers are worth it FOR ME, at least right now. I am heavily leaning towardfs the MS Springs just to retain that "semi-stock" appearance and value is I ever try and sell it down the road. If I was taking the car to the track at least twice a month or so I might consider the MS Coils but since I will be DDing the car, from what I have read about peoples experience with the springs is that most are satisfied.

On another note. Does anyone know how long Mazda parts and accessories will be available for our cars once production on this Generation ends?
__________________
2008 Cosmic Blue Mica Mazdaspeed3 Sport
Mods: Removed Dealer Sticker, Rubber Floor Mats, K&N Filter (OFF), TWM Shifter Bushings, Pennzoil Platinum 5w-30 Full Synthetic (Due @ 27350), "TWM", "Zoom-Zoom" & "Mazdaspeed" Vinyl Stickers, First Aid Kit, Mazdaspeed CAI (ON), RPMC Turbo Inlet (ON), THULE Trunk Organizer, 93 Octane Fuel, Continental ExtrameContact 225/45's
Build Date: 08/07
TurboWagon is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-10-2008, 10:46 AM   #10
 
ZooZoom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: So.Cal
Posts: 178   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
ZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to allZooZoom is a name known to all
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

has anybody got a .pdf or link of the current MS3 accessories catalog? Every time I visit my local Mazda dealership they have them for every other Mazda vehicle except the Speed3 ?
ZooZoom is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-10-2008, 11:14 AM   #11
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Here you go...the catalog is for all vehicles...
Attached Files
File Type: pdf msacc.pdf (4.99 MB, 81 views)
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-11-2008, 07:35 PM   #12
Banned
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 709   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Crossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the world
Thanks: 335
Thanked 391 Times in 156 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 9 Times in 8 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

One major advantage of coilovers that hasn't been mentioned yet...you keep your stock suspension (springs/shocks) as a seperate set.

With springs, you have to demount the stock springs on the front, remount the aftermarket springs, and put the whole shebang together. In addition, you are now increasing the wear rate of the stock shocks, as you've reduced your shock travel distance (by whatever drop you have) and thus increased the amount of work they have to do.

No matter what manufacturer tells you about shocks matching up to springs...if you reduce the shock travel on your stock shocks, they're going to wear down significantly faster then if you kept the stock ride height on.

Since coilovers come already integrated (on the front units) with their own struts/shocks designed to work independently of ride height, they won't have this issue...and you'll have an entire spare stock suspension in case you ever have issues (or want to trade in/sell the car later). Considering how much a good pair of shocks are, 1-1.2k for coilovers isn't an outlandish price. As for coilover brands...you get what you pay for. The higher quality sets will perform similar to the cheaper sets, only with superior adjustment (usually rebound AND damper, in addition to ride height), and superior ride comfort. (Good shocks make allllll the difference in the world)
Crossbow is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Crossbow For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), TurboWagon (04-13-2008), Zeya (04-14-2008)
 Old 04-11-2008, 08:31 PM   #13
 
enganear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 197   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
enganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the world
Thanks: 34
Thanked 153 Times in 43 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
No matter what manufacturer tells you about shocks matching up to springs...if you reduce the shock travel on your stock shocks, they're going to wear down significantly faster then if you kept the stock ride height on.
WTF??? Could you open that up a bit more before I call BS?

Shock wear occurs at the seal and bushings. Wear is a function of relative surface speed, load (bushings), internal pressure (seals) and cumulative stroke travel. Stiffer springs result in less travel, drops result in the longer piston bearing to bushing distance which results in a lower moment/less force at the bushings. Stiffer springs result in less internal pressure during compression, higher during rebound.

I do not understand how you reached this conclusion, please explain.
-enganear
enganear is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to enganear For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), TurboWagon (04-13-2008)
 Old 04-12-2008, 08:40 AM   #14
Banned
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 709   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Crossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the world
Thanks: 335
Thanked 391 Times in 156 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 9 Times in 8 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Experience. On the Mazda6, when you put any spring that dropped the car more then 1 inch, the rear shocks would start leaking after about 10k miles, the fronts within 25k miles. Stock cars never had an issue with this, nor did coilovers. On ebiachs and sprints, this occured in as little as 6k miles. Road and driving conditions were the variables.

Shocks are primarily responsible for countering the rebound force from the spring compression, which is why a car with blown shocks will bounce up and down repeatedly while driving down the road.

When you reduce the travel of a shock through lowering springs, the shock has less distance to counter the upward force of the spring rebound. If you used incredibly stiff springs, this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but most aftermarket spring rates are not significantly higher then stock (most are 10-15% stiffer, but reduce the travel as much as 1-1.5 inches). (On the 6 shocks, this gave you roughly 0.25-0.5 inches of total shock travel).

End result? The shock has to do more work in the same distance, and the strain of this cuts its life expectancy down.

If you feel this is not correct, lets debate!

Last edited by Crossbow; 04-12-2008 at 09:14 AM.
Crossbow is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Crossbow For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), TurboWagon (04-13-2008)
 Old 04-12-2008, 09:58 AM   #15
 
enganear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 197   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
enganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the world
Thanks: 34
Thanked 153 Times in 43 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Experience. On the Mazda6, when you put any spring that dropped the car more then 1 inch, the rear shocks would start leaking after about 10k miles, the fronts within 25k miles. Stock cars never had an issue with this, nor did coilovers. On ebiachs and sprints, this occured in as little as 6k miles. Road and driving conditions were the variables.

Shocks are primarily responsible for countering the rebound force from the spring compression, which is why a car with blown shocks will bounce up and down repeatedly while driving down the road.

When you reduce the travel of a shock through lowering springs, the shock has less distance to counter the upward force of the spring rebound. If you used incredibly stiff springs, this wouldn't be as much of an issue, but most aftermarket spring rates are not significantly higher then stock (most are 10-15% stiffer, but reduce the travel as much as 1-1.5 inches). (On the 6 shocks, this gave you roughly 0.25-0.5 inches of total shock travel).

End result? The shock has to do more work in the same distance, and the strain of this cuts its life expectancy down.

If you feel this is not correct, lets debate!
Thanks for the reply. When I re-read my post it seemed confrontational and that was not my intent. I have lowered many cars and never seen an effect on shock life, but this is my first Mazda (other than an RX2 project).

Are the stock shocks nitrogen pressurized? If so, lowering would result in higher internal pressures that could contribute to leaking. Other than that, lowering the car just results in the piston sitting lower in the bore of the shock. If the springs are not significantly stiffer, then travel distance and velocity should not be significantly different from the stock setup. I don't get the more work aspect of your argument for a lowered car.
-enganear
enganear is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to enganear For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), TurboWagon (04-13-2008)
 Old 04-12-2008, 02:33 PM   #16
Banned
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 709   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Crossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the world
Thanks: 335
Thanked 391 Times in 156 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 9 Times in 8 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Ha don't worry about it. I post to learn and exchange ideas/info. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I want to know why I'm wrong . Thus I tend to take things said lightly, especially since we aren't sitting around chillin with a bunch of beers. (The best time to discuss cars!)

My original argument was as follows.
Because the shock has less distance in which to dampen the resulting upward force (caused by the spring compression), it has to work harder, which generates more heat, which can eventually lead to fatigue.

Here's another way to look at it.
Because the suspension travel of the shock/strut is significantly less now (lets say 50% for arguments sake), it must dampen the movement of the car within that distance. If it does not (as in the shock not being able to handle the increased spring rate of either the aftermarket spring, or any jounce bumper attached to the shock/strut combo[see attached article]), it will have to work longer to dampen the force (ie more strokes, bounciness) which will generate increased heat, and reduce the longevity of the shock/strut.

Reference Article
Bump Stops, Bump Travel, and Lowering Springs | Build A Faster Car . com - SITE IN DEVELOPMENT!
Crossbow is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Crossbow For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), TurboWagon (04-13-2008)
 Old 04-12-2008, 07:43 PM   #17
 
enganear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 197   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
enganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the world
Thanks: 34
Thanked 153 Times in 43 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Ha don't worry about it. I post to learn and exchange ideas/info. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I want to know why I'm wrong . Thus I tend to take things said lightly, especially since we aren't sitting around chillin with a bunch of beers. (The best time to discuss cars!)

My original argument was as follows.
Because the shock has less distance in which to dampen the resulting upward force (caused by the spring compression), it has to work harder, which generates more heat, which can eventually lead to fatigue.

Here's another way to look at it.
Because the suspension travel of the shock/strut is significantly less now (lets say 50% for arguments sake), it must dampen the movement of the car within that distance. If it does not (as in the shock not being able to handle the increased spring rate of either the aftermarket spring, or any jounce bumper attached to the shock/strut combo[see attached article]), it will have to work longer to dampen the force (ie more strokes, bounciness) which will generate increased heat, and reduce the longevity of the shock/strut.

Reference Article
Bump Stops, Bump Travel, and Lowering Springs | Build A Faster Car . com - SITE IN DEVELOPMENT!
Cool.

If the spring rate is not significantly different (you mentioned 10-15% IIRC), why would the travel be significantly different? Besides, a shock is not sensitive to ride height, it only provides resistance proportional to compression or rebound velocity.

The article you reference is about suspension travel that extends into the bump stop. This causes the effective spring rate to skyrocket resulting in high rebound velocities, over pressurization and eventual leaks. Suspension travel into the bump stop makes for a jarring ride and EVIL handling as the tires are suddenly overloaded.

If anyone drops a car until the suspension is constantly into the bump stop, then I consider the resulting shock leaks to be Darwin at work. You are not talking about a properly lowered car, you are talking about a car ruined for the sake of appearance.
-enganear
enganear is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to enganear For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), TurboWagon (04-13-2008)
 Old 04-13-2008, 07:55 AM   #18
Banned
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 709   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Crossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the world
Thanks: 335
Thanked 391 Times in 156 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 9 Times in 8 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Besides, a shock is not sensitive to ride height
So you're saying that even with reduced shock travel, a shocks work load won't increase? What about the effect of the shock being fully compressed? As the car lowers, and the shocks travel is reduced, isn't there then a chance that the shock can bottom out more often? And if it doesn't bottom out, it's probably going to be hitting the bump stock/jounce bumper (unless the spring rate is significantly higher then 25%...more like 300%) and then we're back to the suspension article I linked. Wouldn't that then reduce the life expectancy of the shock?

If anyone drops a car until the suspension is constantly into the bump stop,
In the case of the Mazda6, almost any drop put the shocks onto the jounce bumpers. Even racing beat had you cutting the rear bump stops, and they dropped the car less then half an inch.

I think the best way of resolving this particular discussion, is to take a careful look at the front and rear strut/shocks, (with photo goodness!) and measure their travel both extended, and at normal ride heights, to see exactly the effect of dropping the ride height 1+ on these particular cars. We could also check with individuals with lowering springs with 20k+ miles on the car (if we were lazy).

You are correct in that I shouldn't assume that because a particular side effect occurred on one Mazda, that it will occur on all of them. Time to do some research! Good discussion!
Crossbow is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Crossbow For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), TurboWagon (04-13-2008)
 Old 04-13-2008, 11:56 AM   #19
 
enganear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 197   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
enganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the worldenganear is the leader of the world
Thanks: 34
Thanked 153 Times in 43 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
So you're saying that even with reduced shock travel, a shocks work load won't increase? What about the effect of the shock being fully compressed? As the car lowers, and the shocks travel is reduced, isn't there then a chance that the shock can bottom out more often? And if it doesn't bottom out, it's probably going to be hitting the bump stock/jounce bumper (unless the spring rate is significantly higher then 25%...more like 300%) and then we're back to the suspension article I linked. Wouldn't that then reduce the life expectancy of the shock?
A shock is just a piston in a cylinder pumping oil through orifices to provide resistance to travel that is proportional to velocity. As long as the suspension is working normally (not hitting the bumper) it does not matter whether the piston is near the top of stroke or the bottom of stroke.

It is very different if the suspension is hitting the bumper because of the radical increase in effective spring rate and rebound velocity. Dropping the suspension to the point where the bumper is frequently hit is a really bad idea and the best reason I can think of to be careful.
-enganear
enganear is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to enganear For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), TurboWagon (04-13-2008)
 Old 04-14-2008, 06:17 AM   #20
Banned
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 709   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Crossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the world
Thanks: 335
Thanked 391 Times in 156 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 9 Times in 8 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Continuing...

After talking to my suspension buddies (I usually just dabbed into suspension and let the better more knowledgeable folks instruct me), I completely agree about the shock travel not effecting the longevity of the shock. What happened here was me misinterpreting what was actually happening. So here is the final summary of our conversation.

1) Reducing shock travel does not wear down a shock faster. As you said,
"A shock is just a piston in a cylinder pumping oil through orifices to provide resistance to travel that is proportional to velocity."

2) Reducing shock travel DOES increase the frequency of hitting the jounce bumpers, which causes a large increase in spring rate. This will cause the shock to have to cycle more to dampen the increase, increasing the stress of the shock (heat), and reducing its longevity. It's the fault of these progressively higher spring rate bumpers that do the damage. Of course if you removed them, and the shock bottomed out, you'd have another big problem!

We both agree that sitting on the jounce/bump stops is very bad. Both for longevity of suspension components, and predictable suspension behavior.

So now we just need to look at the stock shocks and check out the travel vs the jounce/bumpers, and see how close they are to hitting stock, which will determine the general suspension recommendations.

Here's a scary thought though. The average person would barely be able to tell a 10-20% increase in spring firmness...which leads me to believe the springs on the market are already hitting the jounce bumpers. =/
Crossbow is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Crossbow For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), TurboWagon (04-14-2008), Zeya (04-14-2008)
 Old 04-15-2008, 05:20 AM   #21
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
One major advantage of coilovers that hasn't been mentioned yet...you keep your stock suspension (springs/shocks) as a seperate set.

With springs, you have to demount the stock springs on the front, remount the aftermarket springs, and put the whole shebang together. In addition, you are now increasing the wear rate of the stock shocks, as you've reduced your shock travel distance (by whatever drop you have) and thus increased the amount of work they have to do.
Thats one of the reasons I'm leaning towards the coilovers... Ease of R&R!!
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-15-2008, 08:08 AM   #22
Banned
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 709   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Crossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the world
Thanks: 335
Thanked 391 Times in 156 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 9 Times in 8 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Found some nice photos to add to the discussion.

First off, some shots of the stock suspension.




Some neato shots of the suspension on the car.



A shot of the Mazdaspeed Coilovers (Kw variant supposedly??)
Crossbow is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Crossbow For This Useful Post:
kosh (05-02-2008), lidokrantz (04-26-2008)
 Old 04-15-2008, 08:58 AM   #23
 
Crizomatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 80   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Crizomatic is a name known to allCrizomatic is a name known to allCrizomatic is a name known to allCrizomatic is a name known to allCrizomatic is a name known to allCrizomatic is a name known to all
Thanks: 9
Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

wow, that really does make me wonder how much more room for some rubber you get if you run coilovers.
Crizomatic is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-15-2008, 09:24 AM   #24
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Crizomatic View Post
wow, that really does make me wonder how much more room for some rubber you get if you run coilovers.
Another reason I'm leaning towards coilovers...
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-15-2008, 07:12 PM   #25
 
bykeryder4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,032   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
bykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the worldbykeryder4life is the leader of the world
Thanks: 577
Thanked 273 Times in 181 Posts
Groans: 38
Groaned at 12 Times in 11 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

do it. get the coilovers. peer pressure is a mother f*cker haha
bykeryder4life is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-16-2008, 11:56 AM   #26
 
stretch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 38   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
stretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud of
Thanks: 1
Thanked 31 Times in 14 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

So, I'm Crossbow's suspension friend. After seeing this discussion, I went and found a Speed3 to measure. These were very quick measurements- I didn't even remove a strut. Here's what I got:

The strut has 4.6-4.7 inches of travel before its bump stop. This was hard to measure. I used a depth gauge and stuck it in under the dust shield to get this measurement.

Then I let the car down off the lift. The weight of the car used 3.5 inches of droop travel. I did not rock the car back and forth to alleviate the stresses on the car that cause it to settle slightly more after having been jacked up, so figure it would've gone 0.25 inches lower.

Anyway, if it's got 4.65 inches of travel, motion ratio of 0.98 = 4.75 inches of wheel travel. I saw 3.5 inches of that as droop travel, but I suspect after settling it'd be more like 3.75- especially once the driver gets in. So, there's 4.75 inches of travel prior to the bump stop, 3.75 of which is used up at the stock ride height. That leaves one inch until the bump stop.

This is actually a lot better than most cars. I was very pleasantly surprised.

But by no means is that an excuse to lower the car an inch (or more) to put the car onto its bump stops. The stock springs and sways are soft enough that you'll still use that up on corner entry, and for stability reasons, you want to stay in your linear spring rate range (off the bump stops) in corners. You also want to stay off the bump stops for small bumps so that the small bumps actually feel small.

I didn't get to take the bump stops off, but in the pictures, they look very soft initially and short overall. They look extremely progressive, so hitting the bump stops probably won't feel like much so long as you hit them lightly. However, since they are short, they are going to get extremely stiff, very quickly. This is why it is paramount that you do not load up the bump stops in turns- you have to allow some play before the bump stop gets too firm.

The other big thing to look into is valving. Has anyone dyno'd the stock dampers? Do we know what spring rates they can handle?

I think lowering an inch or more on the stock struts looks like a bad idea. I'd probably stick to 3/4 of an inch or less, and accompany that with larger sway bars so the car leans less (uses less travel) in turns. Safely lowering 3/4 inch is pretty good- for comparison, I strongly recommend my fellow STI owners not to lower the car at all. But since my Speed3 measurements were quick, so someone should probably verify them.

I didn't measure the stock rear shocks because it's the fronts that always have suspension travel issues. Stock rear suspension have tons of travel (almost always) because most cargo and passenger weight is supported back there.

Those KW's look quite a bit shorter on travel, especially in the rear where travel is needed for days when you're hauling 4 passengers. I'm sure they're shorter overall than stock, which means most of the lost travel will be in droop (where it wouldn't be used with firmer springs anyway). I wonder if the coilovers are spec'd to the full GVWR of the car. Regardless, KW makes some good stuff, but I'd suggest finding or getting a dyno plot of them before plunking down the dollars, though. Don't assume they're good by reputation. Even Moton has released some $5k dampers with utterly terrible valving.

FWIW, I'm currently writing about suspension travel and how to measure it. If you've got any questions, what I've written thus far is complete enough to probably answer most of 'em:
Suspension Travel | Build A Faster Car
stretch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to stretch For This Useful Post:
Crossbow (04-16-2008), FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), SgtP (05-04-2008)
 Old 04-16-2008, 12:13 PM   #27
Eatin' Your Tuna
 
Haltech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nator HQ - San Diego, CA
Posts: 109,691
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 10
Haltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the worldHaltech is the leader of the world
Thanks: 1,601
Thanked 41,991 Times in 8,187 Posts
Groans: 244
Groaned at 329 Times in 243 Posts
Default

Hey welcome aboard and very informative, thanks
__________________

Originally Posted by Mazda3Revolution
An intro thread on MSF is like your first day at a State Corrections facility. "Your gonna get tested".
MSF -The HARDCORE Of Mazda High Performance Tech!
Flex Limited Ecoboost - Not Stock

Gen1 MS3 - COBB FMIC V2.0 | COBB SRI | COBB AP Stage 2 W/MSF_V1.08y | COBB 3" Downpipe | COBB CBE | Devil's Own Stage 2 Meth Injection | AST 4300 Coilovers | Haltech Fuel Pump Internals | Rota Torque 18x8 w/ 235/40/18 | ACT 6 PUCK Sprung/Streetlite
Haltech is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-21-2008, 05:25 AM   #28
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Haltech View Post
Hey welcome aboard and very informative, thanks
Have you installed your BCs yet?
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-24-2008, 11:31 AM   #29
 
Ghetto Mods's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Arid Zona
Posts: 52   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Ghetto Mods is an unknown quantity at this point
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default Question..

Wouldn't a stiffer set of springs (say 25% stiffer) also reduce the droop height by 25% due to the higher spring rates, providing some of a cushion (pun not intended) against hitting the bump stops?

Also, where are these bump stops located and how do I cut them down?
__________________
All your boost are belong to us.
Ghetto Mods is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-24-2008, 11:43 AM   #30
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Bump stops are located through the strut/shock shaft... Its basically an elogated rubber donut. There is also another set on the rear suspesion linkage; I guess to prevent the suspension linkage contacting the frame...???
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-24-2008, 12:07 PM   #31
 
digitaljedi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Monterey Park, ca.
Posts: 1,222   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
digitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the world
Thanks: 120
Thanked 432 Times in 185 Posts
Groans: 37
Groaned at 51 Times in 34 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Just to let you know, the cobb springs are unbelievable, I think they ride better to stock and there is almost no body roll now, very flat through the turns, I took my favorite on ramp ten miles per hour quicker than before. I don't even have the cobb sway bars yet. I think springs and sways are the best way to start, I don't know much about autox, but don't coilovers bump you up into a really high class?
__________________
2008 speed3- FOR SALE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SEE HERE!
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f665/2008-speed-3-sale-177096/
2000 Honda S2000(track car)
digitaljedi is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-24-2008, 12:16 PM   #32
Banned
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 709   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Crossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the world
Thanks: 335
Thanked 391 Times in 156 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 9 Times in 8 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Port installed options: rear spoiler, diff protector, armrest extension (specifically allowed in February '03 FasTrack, the general rules allow factory options only).
Appearance, comfort and convenience options, e. g. gauges, alarms, turbo timers, shift knobs.
Removal of spare tire, tools and jack.
Harness (seat belts cannot be removed).
Any DOT approved tires (see rules for restrictions), including R-compounds, of any size (no modification of fender well).
Wheels (stock size only, offset within 0.25" of stock).
Wheel spacers (resulting offset within 0.25" of stock).
Lug nuts.
Brake pads, speed bleeders.
Shocks that maintain stock ride height, can be adjustable. See rule book for details!
Front sway bar.
Different alignment using factory adjustments (no camber bolts).
Spark plugs.
Air filter element can be removed or replaced.
Cat-back exhaust.

Springs throw you out of stock class.
Crossbow is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-24-2008, 12:45 PM   #33
 
stretch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 38   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
stretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud of
Thanks: 1
Thanked 31 Times in 14 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by Ghetto Mods View Post
Wouldn't a stiffer set of springs (say 25% stiffer) also reduce the droop height by 25% due to the higher spring rates, providing some of a cushion (pun not intended) against hitting the bump stops?

Also, where are these bump stops located and how do I cut them down?
Firmer springs do not make up for a lack of suspension travel, no- at least not in nearly a 1:1 ratio like that. When you hit a sharp bump, the springs compress so quickly that a 25% increase in spring rate will have a negligible effect on body movement. Shock valving will be more important in this case.

Any time a bump translates into chassis movement, that is perceived as discomfort. The only way for a bump to have minimal impact on the chassis is if the wheel can move over the bump without the chassis having to move too. If you hit a 2" bump and have 1" of travel, suddenly the chassis is going to feel a huge thunk as it rises an inch too. This also overwhelms your tires, causing a lack of grip.

Firmer springs increase the speed at which the chassis will respond to wheel inputs, but they do not help the magnitude or wheel movement.

To put this in perspective, my current coilovers (on my STI) run much, much firmer springs than these Cobb units (400lb/in fronts, for comparison), yet I have more suspension travel than a stock Mazdaspeed3. I'm still able to bottom out the suspension with this setup. (Specifically, I run spring frequencies of 2.0hz front, 2.2hz rear, and 6.5" travel front, 7.5" travel rear, 3" droop on both ends.)

As I said earlier, the stock bump stops look short up front already. I wouldn't cut them. Instead, I'd just tune my suspension so that it doesn't hit them as often. You'll always hit the bump stops in a street car, so you want to make sure they're comfortable (long enough) when you do hit them. Besides, that first progression that you'd be cutting off looks soft already.

Originally Posted by digitaljedi View Post
Just to let you know, the cobb springs are unbelievable, I think they ride better to stock and there is almost no body roll now, very flat through the turns, I took my favorite on ramp ten miles per hour quicker than before. I don't even have the cobb sway bars yet. I think springs and sways are the best way to start, I don't know much about autox, but don't coilovers bump you up into a really high class?
10mph on a what, 50mph ramp? So you gained 20%? By extension, that'd also mean you could drop 10 seconds off of the typical 60 second autocross course? Give everyone a break and cut the nonsense. I'd bet your car went just as fast stock, but prior to your spring install, you weren't pushing it as hard.

Furthermore, while lowering the car will always decrease weight shifts, lowering springs rarely reduce body roll as much as drivers think. This is because your roll centers drop much faster than your center of gravity, and this increases body roll relative to the lateral force on the chassis. I don't have the measurements to plot this, yet, but on my STI lowering one inch would take 18% more spring rate just to compensate for the additional tendency of the body to roll. This might not happen in practice because the outside tires will hit the bump stops (thus you have more than an 18% increase in spring rate). The perception of reduced body roll and overall stiffness come from this.

As I said earlier, I'd recommend upgraded sway bars for cars with lowering springs to combat body roll while reducing the load on the bump stops. (Realistically, you'll always be hitting them on a lowered car.) With both lowering springs and bigger sways, though, the thing to watch will be your shock valving and whether it feels good with increased roll spring rate.

More about roll centers:
Roll Centers | Build A Faster Car

Yet, I believe you if you say the slew of changes that occur when lowering the car do, overall, make the car feel better at the limit. Probably this feel could've been achieved a number of ways, though. For example, if you find your lowering springs increase the tendency to oversteer, that could also be done with a rear sway bar. Lowering springs will increase camber- could be done with camber plates or bolts. Etc, etc.

Story: I thought I had my Mazda6 all spec'd out to be fast. It was- I was taking home trophies from nearly every event. Then, one day, I got caught between aftermarket suspensions. I raced an otherwise stock Mazda6 (stock springs, stock shocks) with only a large rear sway bar. To my surprise, the car was very, very nearly as fast as with full coilovers and I still trophied. I thought I had been improving the suspension, but in reality it had been the driver improving. This is why a so many good stock class autocrossers still best the times of much more prepared cars.

Springs are almost never worth much time unless they are very specifically designed for aftermarket dampers, too. That's not my opinion- it's my experience. Even then, full coilover sets (the good ones) aren't worth as much time as good tires or an alignment. If you want to go fast, get sway bars, an alignment, and tires first. They are all much more important.

Bottom line: if you like 'em, that's great, but try to be realistic about what they're actually doing.

But yes, springs bump you out of stock class for autocross. They'll put you in the same class against those with pretty nicely-spec'd suspensions.

Last edited by stretch; 04-24-2008 at 01:26 PM.
stretch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to stretch For This Useful Post:
FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008)
 Old 04-24-2008, 01:03 PM   #34
 
melan47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 74   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
melan47 has a spectacular aura aboutmelan47 has a spectacular aura aboutmelan47 has a spectacular aura about
Thanks: 2
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by TurboWagon View Post
I think that either way you go, you are going to want what you don't have. Here is what I think you should do...

1. Buy MS Springs
2. Install and Test
3a. Love them and keep them (see 4a)
3b. Hate them and sell them to TurboWagon (see4b)
4a. Give us a report
4b. Buy MS Coilovers
5. Give us a report

From experience, I dont think coilovers are worth it FOR ME, at least right now. I am heavily leaning towardfs the MS Springs just to retain that "semi-stock" appearance and value is I ever try and sell it down the road. If I was taking the car to the track at least twice a month or so I might consider the MS Coils but since I will be DDing the car, from what I have read about peoples experience with the springs is that most are satisfied.

On another note. Does anyone know how long Mazda parts and accessories will be available for our cars once production on this Generation ends?
4c. hate them sale to melan47
melan47 is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-24-2008, 01:43 PM   #35
 
digitaljedi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Monterey Park, ca.
Posts: 1,222   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
digitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the worlddigitaljedi is the leader of the world
Thanks: 120
Thanked 432 Times in 185 Posts
Groans: 37
Groaned at 51 Times in 34 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

[QUOTE=stretch;21809]Firmer springs do not make up for a lack of suspension travel, no- at least not in nearly a 1:1 ratio like that. When you hit a sharp bump, the springs compress so quickly that a 25% increase in spring rate will have a negligible effect on body movement. Shock valving will be more important in this case.

Any time a bump translates into chassis movement, that is perceived as discomfort. The only way for a bump to have minimal impact on the chassis is if the wheel can move over the bump without the chassis having to move too. If you hit a 2" bump and have 1" of travel, suddenly the chassis is going to feel a huge thunk as it rises an inch too. This also overwhelms your tires, causing a lack of grip.

Firmer springs increase the speed at which the chassis will respond to wheel inputs, but they do not help the magnitude or wheel movement.

To put this in perspective, my current coilovers (on my STI) run much, much firmer springs than these Cobb units (400lb/in fronts, for comparison), yet I have more suspension travel than a stock Mazdaspeed3. I'm still able to bottom out the suspension with this setup. (Specifically, I run spring frequencies of 2.0hz front, 2.2hz rear, and 6.5" travel front, 7.5" travel rear, 3" droop on both ends.)

As I said earlier, the stock bump stops look short up front already. I wouldn't cut them. Instead, I'd just tune my suspension so that it doesn't hit them as often. You'll always hit the bump stops in a street car, so you want to make sure they're comfortable (long enough) when you do hit them. Besides, that first progression that you'd be cutting off looks soft already.


10mph on a what, 50mph ramp? So you gained 20%? By extension, that'd also mean you could drop 10 seconds off of the typical 60 second autocross course? Give everyone a break and cut the nonsense. I'd bet your car went just as fast stock, but prior to your spring install, you weren't pushing it as hard.

Its actually a freeway interchange, a long sweeping turn that takes you from west to south. And yes, when you car feels more planted and turn in feels better, it does inspire confidence and that is a part of a cars handeling, how comfortable you feel driving fast.

For example, you take someone like me, with a ton of road course experience and stick them behind the wheel of a stock ms3, I gurantee you I can beat someone with no road race experience in a car on the Mazdaspeed coilovers.

So while the springs "technically" may not have added 10mph to that ramp for me, in "actuallity" they did, because I feel more confident driving the car at that speed and I feel as if I have more control. Hence, the cobb springs are awesome. Cobb is one of the best suspension companies on the planet, and I can almost gurantee a Cobb equipped cars, that is springs and sway bars, would not be to far behind a mazdaspeed coilover equipped car. They have a video of their suspension on a track on their website, a before and after.

I am not trying to argue with you about the technical responses of spring rates and whatever else, but coilovers aren't always the greatest things in the world. Sport Compact Car did a test on coilovers this issue, a huge one, and the teins that costs $1700 performed better than other setups that cost $4,000. The best option is to mix and match suspension parts until you find a setup that you feel fits you best.

Most performance cars built today are faster than their drivers could ever be around a track, stock, and people use coilovers and other things as band aids to make you faster. Point is, learn how to be fast on springs and sways for 450 bucks before you go spend 1400 on coilovers and think you are fast. Especially when those coils are going to place you in an insane scca class.
__________________
2008 speed3- FOR SALE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SEE HERE!
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f665/2008-speed-3-sale-177096/
2000 Honda S2000(track car)
digitaljedi is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-24-2008, 05:17 PM   #36
Banned
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 709   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Crossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the worldCrossbow is the leader of the world
Thanks: 335
Thanked 391 Times in 156 Posts
Groans: 1
Groaned at 9 Times in 8 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I wouldn't call cobb the greatest suspension company in the world. I'd call them an decent company, which sells some street suspension components. The fact that their stock springs are dropping more then half an inch are a testament to the compromises they are building into the design to sell a product.

Lowering an inch+ (without the spring rate to counter) is not performance oriented, and has everything to do with looks...especially considering that the camber curves of a macpherson setup don't do so well when the car gets lower to the ground. This was a compromise for a street driven vehicle, as well as the choice in spring rates.

(This is of course ignoring the fact that cobb doesn't even deal with the suspension components...they outsource them to another company, then put their branding on it, (see mazdaspeed coilovers for another example...kw suspension.))

I won't get into your aftermarket company labeled cobb suspension vs kw suspension mazdaspeed coilovers comparison, because the cobb equipment is at a massive disadvantage. The speed coilovers not only have significantly higher spring rates, but adjustable ride height, (which allows for corner balancing) and adjustable rebound AND damper settings which would let you setup the car exactly as you wanted it, for a particular track. By comparison, a street setup, designed primarily for a minor improvement vs a stock setup (20% and 90% are very small changes compared to other choices), with points for looks, and drivability, would be at a serious disadvantage.

Of course you can argue...better driver...etc etc...and that's all 100% true. A better driver in a MS3 will beat the living crap outta a noob in a heavily modded car. The only way you'd ever get a comparison like that, is to have two cars with the same driver lap a course...and it would have to be a blind test (no bias for the driver, and no knowing which setup was on which car), for it to be valid. Lets see if we can get the Stig!

The whole point of this thread (for those who might have gotten caught up in other discussions) was to show how lowering springs can and will reduce the longevity of a strut/shock if the shock is continuously riding/sitting on it's bump stop (and thus being hit with high spring rates, of which it is not setup to handle, thus requiring repeated oscillations to stop the upward force).

Last edited by Crossbow; 04-25-2008 at 02:48 AM.
Crossbow is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Crossbow For This Useful Post:
Zeya (04-30-2008)
 Old 04-25-2008, 08:29 AM   #37
 
stretch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 38   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
stretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud ofstretch has much to be proud of
Thanks: 1
Thanked 31 Times in 14 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by digitaljedi
So while the springs "technically" may not have added 10mph to that ramp for me, in "actuallity" they did, because I feel more confident driving the car at that speed and I feel as if I have more control. Hence, the cobb springs are awesome.
digitaljedi, if you want to make the argument that Cobb springs were 10mph faster for you because they either mask your lousy driving or make you feel brave (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting what you wrote), then wouldn't it make even more sense to say, "Since I've got lots of learning to do, I ought to stay on the stock suspension?"

I never recommend that people modify their suspensions until they are good drivers with lots of seat time. Otherwise, you'll never be able to separate which handling issues are from the driver and which are from the car (or which are both). This is important!

You have to understand that the spring rate increase of 15% front is so minimal that you'd barely feel it (nor see it, in a video) if not for the decreased suspension travel and the accompanied engagement of the bump stops as supplementary springs. And the problem with limited travel on softish springs is that further down the road, you may find some strange transient handling issues that are difficult to sort out.

They have a video of their suspension on a track on their website, a before and after.
...and that video shows the textbook results of sway bars on a front drive car. The narrator complained of understeer and body roll, both of which are best fixed by sway bars, not springs.

Cobb is one of the best suspension companies on the planet, and I can almost gurantee a Cobb equipped cars, that is springs and sway bars, would not be to far behind a mazdaspeed coilover equipped car.
I would agree that a Cobb car wouldn't be far behind a KW suspension car, but only because of the point I made earlier: that springs and/or coilovers aren't worth much time. Ultimately, though, the KW car will feel MUCH better due to the better dampers and adequate suspension travel when lowered, both of which are more important than spring rate. (Assume that both are running the same sway bars, as those are important too.) And here's the kicker: NEITHER setup would be much faster than a car on stock springs and shocks, but with the same tires, sways, and a sufficient alignment. As I said earlier, those are going to be the real upgrades.

If you take measurements of your stock or a Cobb sway bar, I can tell you just what percentage of your roll resistance is coming from the sway bar. I'd bet your sways provide at least twice as much roll resistance as your springs, with stiffer sways increasing that gap. That's why sways reduce body roll and change the handling bias substantially while springs do not.

I do have to laugh at your calling Cobb one of the best suspension companies in the world, though. What is your criteria for that conclusion? Cobb- quite obviously- isn't a suspension company at all. I don't think I've ever seen a technical paper on suspension development come from Cobb. They don't build or spec dampers, the most important part of the suspension, either. KW does those things. I'm not even a huge fan of KW, but they're clearly more serious about suspensions than Cobb (with products to show for it). Penske and Koni would be my two preferable brands.

On the subject, has anyone dyno'd a set of Mazdaspeed3 dampers? I searched here and couldn't find one. If not, how do you know what they can handle? Why don't you call Cobb and ask the damping factor of their springs is on the stock shocks? For bump, rebound, high and low-speed valving. Because, you know, the best suspension companies in the world would be able to answer these questions. Get me a shock dyno, and I could.

FWIW, I run a Cobb front sway bar and it is poorly designed. I also run Cobb's engine mangement software, and I find it to be excellent. I've seen great KW products and some that had pretty questionable valving and construction. I don't have a bias for or against Cobb or KW, but I'm not going to blindly think a company craps sunshine just because another product of theirs is good. Even Moton has released $5k, 4-way adjustables that are absolute junk.

But I digress. I don't mean to discuss companies, just their products.

Most performance cars built today are faster than their drivers could ever be around a track, stock, and people use coilovers and other things as band aids to make you faster. Point is, learn how to be fast on springs and sways for 450 bucks before you go spend 1400 on coilovers and think you are fast. Especially when those coils are going to place you in an insane scca class.
Coilovers put you in the same class as just springs.

You've just made the point of why not to install springs. They don't make most people faster. The only time I've ever run lowering springs on stock shocks (which was back when I was learning), I became slower. This is because lowering springs usually cause strange transient behavior due to the reduction of suspension travel. Stock suspensions are very carefully designed to be forgiving at the limit which is why they are recommended to learn on.

So while I agree with you that it's silly for most people to spend $1400 on coilovers, I disagree with you that those same people are better served with lowering springs. No. Those same people should stay on the stock springs, get a good alignment (much negative camber) for even tire wear and temps, and sway bars (adjust them stiffer in the rear as the driver advances). Rookies shouldn't get aggressive tires, but those are the most important item for those wanting to go fast.

When a person is ready for springs, the proper way to do that is with new (shortened) dampers. That way, the driver avoids introducing complications due to limited damper travel, hitting bump stops, and running a very progressive spring rate. This doesn't have to be a coilover kit, necessarily, but they tend to be the way to go. (Some Koni / spring packages can be stellar if the springs are right, but most lowering springs aren't nearly stiff enough.)

All this said, that's wonderful that you're enjoying your new purchase. I'm only responding here because I hate seeing misinformation on car forums. That's why I'm creating Build A Faster Car | - helping drivers engineer, to dispel some myths about car parts and what they actually do versus what they are perceived (or marketed) to do. Nobody should buy Cobb springs and expect their car to be 10% faster. Those wanting 10% more speed should buy sway bars, r-compounds, and parts to get more negative camber. This is true of nearly all cars. Or, as you pointed out, most people can be 10% faster simply though better driving, and this requires driving schools, NOT springs OR coilovers.

If it were me, I'd get an alignment, sways, and tires, then skip springs and jump directly to coilovers when ready. Springs do not bridge any gap between the stock springs/dampers and good coilovers.

Last edited by stretch; 04-25-2008 at 08:49 AM.
stretch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to stretch For This Useful Post:
enganear (04-27-2008), FreeFlyFreak (08-02-2008), lidokrantz (04-26-2008), MadOzodi (04-29-2008), Zeya (04-30-2008)
 Old 04-26-2008, 06:23 PM   #38
 
lidokrantz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 663   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
lidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the worldlidokrantz is the leader of the world
Thanks: 247
Thanked 192 Times in 90 Posts
Groans: 15
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

stretch.....great post dude, appreciate the knowledge!!
__________________
Current.. 2009 BMW 135i Twin Turbo, Sedonna Red Metallic, M Sport Pkg, Premium Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg with heated seats, Xenons,M Sport steering wheel, BMW Factory Sport Exhaust..300hp, 300 Tq.. in reality..320 hp 320 tq stock
SOON: BMS JB3....tune, ICarbon rear diffuser, ....all under warranty...
.
Past/Sold...2007 MazdaSpeed3,CP-E TBE, CAI, Advan Rs Gunmetal, TWM STS with bushings TWM Desert Eagle shift knob,, Defi Amber boost gauge, HKS BOV with CP-E flange..also tried CP-E Nano SRI (MazdaSpeed CAI, Rota TQ Hyperblack, are FOR SALE 4 months old)
lidokrantz is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-26-2008, 07:19 PM   #39
Door is THAT Way Mate ---->
 
Mr._Pickles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 183   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
Mr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these partsMr._Pickles is infamous around these parts
Thanks: 6
Thanked 26 Times in 21 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

[poseur reply] I went with MS springs for the look first and foremost. I don't track my car and honestly, even if these springs reduced my handing 10%, I'd never get to the point of noticing. I didn't want the lowered car look but felt the stock speed3 springs left a bit of gap. The MS springs closed that to acceptable levels. My car feels as though it has a better ride over rolling dips vs. the stock springs. IIRC correctly, the stock springs were linear. The MS springs are progressive. The seem to have a bit softer initial give and then considerably less give once past the initial shock compression. They do increase harshness going over expansion joints and rail road tracks. [/poseur]
Mr._Pickles is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 04-28-2008, 09:26 AM   #40
 
AutoXRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 1,590   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
AutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond reputeAutoXRacer has a reputation beyond repute
Thanks: 6
Thanked 97 Times in 70 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

My reasoning to buy springs or coilovers is that fact that the stock setup has a HORRIBLE launch stance lifting the front end unnecessarily. It's a little too extreme for my taste. Seems that the stock power of the engine is a good match to the stock suspension, though, once you start increasing the power output, the car needs additional stability.

The flaws I find in the stock setup are:
-front to rear sway upon acceration; though braking dip is not too bad.
-high speed stability (feeling of floating when contacting uneven surfaces).

I basically want to increase traction to the front wheels and settle the car during acceleration and braking transitions. Other than that, the stock setup is more than adequate for your everyday spirited driver.
__________________
2008 Stage 3 Roush Mustang
302E 5.0L Stroker 647rwhp-620 rwtq
AutoXRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cobb Springs-Impressions MidwestSpeed3 MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes 39 07-05-2010 12:16 PM
H&R Springs stephani3 MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes 47 09-23-2008 03:34 PM
Buying BC Racing Coil Overs Haltech MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes 41 08-07-2008 06:28 PM
eibach ms3 springs... bombdotcom MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes 4 06-14-2008 06:31 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
vB.Sponsors
Template-Modifications by TMS
©Copyright 2008 ; 2019 Cymru Internet Services LLC | FYHN™ Autosports HQ
Ad Management plugin by RedTyger
Page generated in 0.67690 seconds with 35 queries