Gauging Interest: Big Brake Kit
 

OK I will post this in a more public forum but I was calling to see if anyone would be interested in a big brake kit from a very reputable brake company. They have contacted us to do a private label. and from what we tlaked about we are looking at about a 362mm X 32mm 2-piece rotor and either a 4 piston or 6 piston caliper depending on what will fit under factory speed wheels. Initial pricing from what I gather would be around $1800 - $2200 (6-piston) maybe less for a group buy. now remember the pricing is just an estimate if I get interest then I can get a more exact price.

Will there be any color choices, pad choices, etc?

I'm not sure on the color It will probably be one or two colors and pads will probably be a standard set. That's the idea behind the thread I need feedback and requests they are waiting for me to get back to them hopefully beginning of next week to get the ball rolling.

a proper valved set up for the speed 6 (un like the ones out there being offered)6 piston front with 2 piece rotors for around 2000 would be a intrest to me for certain.i would also prefer red rotor centers and calipers.

Im in.

I had already mentioned this earlier. Jon had me worried about the clutch... my first impression with the car is the brakes. Where before I often was braking hard from 90-100... now, on the same stretchs of road Im having to stop from 110-120. Standing on them..... its SCARY. The thought of my stockers failing makes me faint.

I need brakes. What kind of timetable would be looking at?

I am in on this but, pads have to be affordable not $400 for replacements like with some other companies. Next, they have to be brand name. None of this BNB backyard brakes company. Brand name is the only thing I will trust when it comes to brakes.

If your going to do fronts, do rears as well... please.

they are one of the biggest names in the business but they told me to keep it quiet until they are good to go. A rear kit would be seperate for more money, how about a kit to make the fronts fit the rear? The pads that come with it are about $100.

Sounds good to me, make a kit for the rear. Don't care how much they are just make a kit for the rear. I am tired of seeing great breaks up front and nothing for the rear. Now if you want to spend the money and get racing brakes you can get fronts and rears no problems, bring money. Make a damn set that matches the fronts in looks and performance and they will have my business.

ptp,
Usually they just do BBK's in the front, because nobody ever changes the brake bias, or modifies the master cylinder. Since a huge % of the braking occurs on the front wheels, most of the performance upgrade occurs there as well.

pale,
On the durability of stock braking systems. There's no question the MS3's will do more then fine with repeated 120 stops. Heck my Mazda6 weighed more, and had smaller/weaker brakes, and went for 4 day straight track sessions at VIR (4.2 mile road course, with nearly mile long straights), with XP10 carbotech's, and carbotech blank rotors, running GS610 brake fluid and SS lines.

Generally I'd bleed my brakes prior to leaving for the track (weekend before) and put the track pads on then (funny week driving to work), then keep everything on there for the 4 hour drive down.

Of course I wasn't running R comps, then might have to jump to XP11's or higher. They restrict R comps to intermediate classes, and I've "just" gotten the pass to go to intermediate my last time to the track. (I've only got about 16 hours of track time).

They tend to restrict R comps at VIR in certain groups, as the speed increase from the R comps usually puts you in the "serious damage" range if you lose it.

http://www.glue.umd.edu/~greghess/east/grandeast.jpg

Now I will say one thing. The last time I went to VIR, I completely wore down the inside of my front track pads, and had to swap them out for the very last session (25-35 minute sessions, four 1st day, sometimes 5 the second day) to my backup street pads (carbotech bobcats).

http://www.glue.umd.edu/~greghess/east/gregvir.jpg

At the end of the main straight, on lap 2, the brakes completely gave out, and poured smoke outta the front wheels, and I almost slide completely off the track. I was black flagged, and went in learning one concrete lesson...if you don't have track pads, don't go flying down the straight at 125 mph and then brake late :).

Here's a lap of me catching up and passing a modified 350Z in a family sedan Mazda6

I'm not trying to bash or downplay BBK's here. I'm just saying that many people tend to jump on the most expensive brake upgrades before working on the easy/cheap stuff. (Better tires, better pads, better fluid). With certain cars, some owners even downgrade to smaller brakes, and they are just as effective, but the parts are enormously cheaper! (M3's are prime example of this)

The main advantage you'll get from a BBK is in pedal consistency/feel (mmm multi-piston). Pad wear (more piston = more even wear). Better braking efficiency (larger rotor mass = larger heat sink = less pad thermal stress, so you can run a less "rotor eating" pad). You'll notice I didn't really say "better stopping distance". Of course you'll get better stopping distance...if you upgrade your tires at the same time!

As one instructor (Eric Wong) told me on one of my first sesssions.
"Can you lock up your brakes with ABS now?"
Yes
"Well with a BBK you'll lock them up faster!"
?
"ABS engaging means the tire is losing traction with the road. You're losing braking distance to tire/road friction, not pad/rotor friction"
Oh.

Understood, but why not make a kit for the rear and offer a bias vavle either preset or ??? I have been tracking cars for a very long time and it always amazes me that you can get the fronts to lock up but almost never the rears when you are running hard on the brakes. I want to start seeing rear brake lock ups because of upgrades not front lock ups because of the lack of rear upgrades.

Nearly all brakes on performance based car wear out in the rear first, why? Because the manufactures are being cheap and getting by with what they have on hand. There is a serious need for rear competition brakes on most sport compacts, but nobody makes them. Odd?

I feel like I'm watching Top Gun every time I listen your video Crossbow haha ;) What 80s movie is that from? I can't remember, but I remember the tune for sure.

Can't say I have much of an interest in a BBK for this car. Unless I track the shit out of it (doubtful), I don't see the point. As Crossbow said, new pads, fluid, and rotors if needed and I'll call it a day.

sweetpickles,

It's the "training montage" music from Rocky 1 :).

Good question that no one seems to have an answer for. Here's a quote from one of the brake articles in the references section of the Crossdrilled thread.

I think the main reason is that manufacturers don't want to be hit with lawsuits from kids slamming into walls because they didn't set the brake bias properly. That brake bias is forward set for maximum stability when braking. It "should" be set more neutral, or just barely to the front on a properly setup car. What's interesting about BBK's, is that by installing one without bias adjustments, you are actually throwing your bias MORE towards the front!

You could probably make do with just a slightly thicker vented rotor on the back with some more rear bias. I wonder if we could just snag a rotor from another car that would work...

willwood offers a proporthioning valve, wouldnt it work?

Wilwood Engineering - Proportioning Valves

I wonder if we could get Todd over at T.C.E. on this forum. He'd be able to answer questions like that pretty easily. I don't know myself, never used one! I just know that adjusting brake bias is important with upgraded setups, and can aid in enhancing a slightly modified stock setup. I'm not confident myself to do it though.

that would work I actually had one for my Thunderbird to make burnouts easier at the track since I had big brakes all around.

We used the knob action one on a custom Baja Vehicle. Worked Great. After some testing we were able to induce the fronts to lock up just a hair before the rears. It was good it was adjustable too because with different tires on the front and rear it was necessary to adjust it a bit for different terrain. (Rears gripped better in the loose stuff than the fronts, we could break better by adjusting the valve to send more pressure to the the rear)

We didn't have any vaccum assist on the brakes though. It was a pretty basic setup.

Todd @TCE developed these for my supercharged SHO years ago. Six piston calipers are nice however this set was VERY wide. Be it 2,4 or 6 calipers as long as all parts involved are matched I would be very interested in a set for both front and rear. Of course, with nods given to super-light weight and pad options as well as color.

In the past I have had a good experience with Alcon, Baer and Wilwood.

If you are gaging interest, count me out. I am quite pleased with the Volvo S60 variants that the MS3 has stock. I don't plan to do any track events, just an occasional autocross. I believe the stock brakes can easily provide more arrestive torque than any tire other than a racing slick can possibly put to the pavement. I had a friend with a hella built Mustang who put Wilwoods on the front and promptly ripped the caliper mounting ears off the spindle. He almost killed some spectators at an auto-x. Frankly, I do not trust the aftermarket when it comes to brakes.
-enganear

OK so I'm bringing this back out for people. The kits will be made by AP racing and we will more than likely be doing this very soon. We will be needing a Speed3 for testing since they already have a Speed6 there. I have been told that they will have an initial lower price for a group buy.

Isnt there USA office based in North Carolina? Send one of the Carolina boys over to get fitted :)

It will be in Costa Mesa California actually.

Im about 20 mins away from there...how long do they need the car? Are they giving the person the kit? lol

I have to finalize it with them before anything gets the green light but I'm sure you would get the kit. If not heavily discounted.

Well hook it up since i dont need the car for now.

count me in. I'd love some bbk on my car. I must make a few points however.

Your current competition is Brembo and Rotora. Brembo makes a 1piece rotor but the kit is cheaper. (I can get it for $1400).

Rotora makes a 2 piece rotor, but its a few hundred more expensive. I think its around $1700-$1800.

My first choice would be Brembo, but the reason they might not be going onto my ms3 is because their caliper is so thick, it protrudes so far forward that to run these brakes on the stock 18" rims you need a 15mm spacer. That's excessive. Rotora has a nicer rotor, and their caliper is 8mm more inward than the Brembo, so it allows for better clearance on many more rims. This is why even though Rotora is more expensive, they've probably sold a lot more kits for the ms3.

Both are 4 piston. Both look incredible. Cross drilled and slotted rotors. I have every intention of buying one or the other, but I've gotta choose my wheels first, and make sure that the wheels I go with will clear the bbk I install next. I do not want to need a spacer.

So if you can design a kit, whether its a 4 piston or 6 piston kit, with large rotors, at least equivalent to the Brembo and Rotora's, and most importantly, provide the greatest clearance over the competition, then you will probably have the market cornered. That is, assuming you don't start charging $2200+ for the kits. Keep in mind, our cars are only $25000 vehicles. I am not gonna spend 10% on FRONT brakes alone. 10% on fronts and rears, definitely. But that's unrealistic. So, keep it at $1800 or less. Include stainless steel brake lines, and keep in mind your competition and your market.

I really hope you do make this happen. I expect to have some massive brakes on my car by no later than December.

-Marcus-

If anyone wants the look of a BBK without the price, put on 17 inch rims and paint your caliper.

no offense, but it really just isnt the same.

I'm actually really happy with the stock braking abilities. I just want the look. Forgive me, but its the truth. I think it looks phenomenal when I see oversized cross drilled slotted rotors and a big caliper that says "XXXXXXXXXX" etc. Whether its porsche, ferrari mmmmm, Brembo, Rotora, mu, etc.I want so bad. I wouldn't spend almost 2g on just anything you know.

To the guy who started this, what's your story? You make and design the brakes and someone else who's a big name company is just gonna slap their name on the calipers? Is that how it works?

You do know that xdrilled rotors are crap right?
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...re-buying.html

You can get slotted rotors, and some brembo covers, run some 17's, and the car has redonkulusly huge rotors and looks like you blew 2-3k on the setup...instead of 250 bucks.

I just don't see the point of a BBK for looks, when you can get the look for a fraction of the price. If you're going to go BBK, do it for a reason...but then usually the people who actually want to brake better don't even look at BBK's until every other avenue has been exhausted.

The whole BBK thing is kinda of a paradox. The whole brake market is just packed full of false facts, misinformation, and general idiocy.

If you want the look, save thousands of dollars.

Car brake disc rotor caliper cover kit

Rotora Brake Rotors for Mazdaspeed 3 (front pair) - Revolution Performance Motorsports!


If you want to brake better...
Get better pads, better shoes, and better fluid.

I guarantee you that if someone is running decent pads, and R comps...they will DESTROY any 2k+ BBK on the market with standard street rubber. (Especially since most BBK's force you to upscale your rims, thus eliminating tons of great tire choices).

lol @ covers

BTW, don't forget the MS3 has an electronic brake bias system that would defeat the purpose of a mechanical brake bias knob or proportioning valve. The computer would go "huh, that's not right," and simply re-bias around your mechanical mod. Unless you defeated the EBD computer - is there a way to do that?

KSport has a Mazda3 BBK with just slots. I suspect that it would work just fine on the speed3.

Sorry, I just need to reply to this before more misinformation is spread around:

The MS3 doesn't use S60 brakes. The S60 uses a completely different rotor size than the MS3.

The Volvo that the MS3's brakes came from is the 2004-up S40 T5 AWD. Only the 2004-up AWD T5 version of the S40 shares the same front brakes as the MS3 (320 mm). The other variants of the S40 currently use 278 mm (base) and 300 mm (for the regular T5).

The S60 uses 286 mm discs for the base model, 305 mm discs (or I believe 316 mm discs for the later years) for the T5 model, and 330 mm discs with fixed multi-piston calipers on the front of the S60R.

That all being said, I agree that good fluid and pads is all the more brake upgrade that the MS3 needs. :)

Im game, but Id like the option to have a rear kit too.

Don't these cars have a shorter stopping distance than a Z06?

I know when I came around a curve doing 70 and saw a stop sign I stopped really fucking quick. The brakes seem good to me.

I've been eyeing this thread for a while, and wasnt going to say anything. So ill keep it short.

Some of you guys I dont think fully understand the main benefit of a BBK, which is increased thermal capacity. Meaning that brake fade will be kept at bay after repeated hard application. Of course there are side benifits, for example if the kit includes two piece rotors with aluminum hats, and aluminum calipers all reduce unsprung mass. Monobloc non sliding caliper construction keeps the pedal feel firm. But there are also detriments to BBKs, a larger rotor will increase rotational mass even though its lighter. BBK's dont always mean SHORTER stoping distances. And last but not least pad knock back may be more noticable depending on how much hub/bearing flex our cars will exhibit when pushed harder, cause of the non sliding caliper design. (somthing HPDE events will teach you is to pre apply bakes).

Chevy,

Your comments only apply when the brakes are undersized for an application. For the speed3, the brakes are actually oversized for the application. All you need is pads and fluids, and you're done. You can stop all day long, every time, from 130-40 brake zones at VIR, with some track pads on stock brakes. Not only that, but with good rubber, you'll be out braking most of the car's at the track, including evo's, sti's, etc...all with giant brembo kits. (especially if they haven't changed their brake pads!)

Your comments are valid...in terms of the larger rotor having more of a heat capacity, allowing the pad temperature to be lower under heavy braking...but if you already have large rotors, it doesn't provide much benefit to go larger, especially when there is a great selection of pads from street to full on race for our application. Remember that you can always move to a more aggressive pad if you are attending a track event that will fit the temperature range you'll be running the brakes at.

As such, the primary benefit on the Mazdaspeed3 with a BBK, would be pedal feel, reduced pad/rotor wear, looks.

The negatives would be...
Massive cost (which you could use to go to 5-6 track events)
High cost of replacement rotors (and possibly pads)
Forced to use larger rims, which increases cost of tires, and availability of R-comp rubber.

You will almost never see someone who drives their car at the track, or autocrossing, install a BBK, unless their brakes are crippled from the factory, or they received the kit at a massive discount due to being a "test" car.

Your on target, but I do want to point out that I never said this car needed a BBK. I just wanted to quickley point out some misnomers about BBK's.

I wouldnt call a 320mm rotor "oversized" for this cars weight and bhp, I would say its damn near perfect ;) The only thing that would have brought it to perfection would have been a fixed caliper, but the slideing kept costs low and still gets the job done.

I call it over sized, because my Mazda 6s weighed exactly the same, and had significantly smaller rotors (11 inch vs the 12.6 inch MS3's)...and we still out braked the Sti's at VIR with Carbotech XP10's.

http://www.3dluvr.com/crossbow/incoming/6rotors.jpg

That's Hot!!

The OE brakes on my 02 WRX were 294mm, the car weight was roughly 3100 pounds or less for that year. And in no way would they last 5 laps all out with pads like xp10's, not only would you destroy the pads and rotors from over heating but you would kill a set of bearings and melt tie rod boots after the day was over.

Either the mazda 6 is lighter then you think (if your comparing it to the weight of a speed3), or there is somthing im missing.

I can see you possibly out breaking an STi for a few laps because of the weight diffrence of a mazda6 to a 3600 pound STi, but I cant see it retaining that ability for long.

I mean no harm here, there are so many factors that could be lead any car to out brake any other car IE tires. For how long, who knows. Rotor mass is king for any long haul on a track.

Later man!

http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~greghess/east/grandeast.jpg

Average lap's at vir (grand east) is 4-5 a session. Track is 4.2 miles, with two straights that are almost a mile long them selves. (Top speed in stock sti is roughly 130-135 mph, with stage 2's getting to 140ish depending on the temp of the day). My Mazda 6s was governered at 120-126 (depending on who you believe at the time), and I'd hit the gov about 2-3 times on the main straight, if I had a good entrance.

My 6s was 3050 lbs or so, and had 11 inch front rotors, with some generic ford caliper, running GS610 brake fluid, Hankook Ventus Z212 Rubber (245/45/16) on rx7 16x8's, with XP10's (now that i think about it, might have been 11's) front and XP9's rear. Same weight distribution, superior suspension setup to the MS3. (Double wishbone front, multilink rear).

My longest track event was 4 straight days with that setup. Or roughly 4-5 sessions a day, of 4-5 laps a session, or about 5-6 hours of track time.

Only on the last session, of the last day, did I check my pads (Always a routine check after each session) and find the fronts dangerously low. Then I did something stupid and put bobcats on, hoping I'd be able to squeeze one more session out of them...haha that was so stupid. Went to brake on my 2nd lap of turn 1, cooked the brakes, pedal to the floor, almost ran off the track.

Rotor wear was fine, but then of course, I had already used the carbotech deal and paid 50 bucks for a set of new front blanks, to swap in when I changed to the XP10/11's. (Supposedly we can use the same deal for the MS3, only its more like 100, but have to check on that).

The funny thing is, as the mazda6 crew broke up, most of the guy's got sti's, and the first thing they complained about was the braking. Except for hank, he got an rx8 and laughed at everyone's complaints.

This gives you a bit of background of why I feel the MS3's braking system is nuts and only needs pads and fluids. I mean really the only decent upgrade choices would be an expensive 2 piece rotor, or a DBA rotor. You could move to a multi-piston caliper to get improved pad wear, reduced unsprung weight, and better pedal feel/engagement...but it would have little effect on brake performance, and massive effect on your wallet! :)

Brembo's yo!
http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.ph...=post&id=42071
/sarc
http://forum.mazda6club.com/index.ph...pic=112395&hl=

Is page one of this thread messed up for anyone else??

I can only see the first 25 posts or so...

It's fine for me.

There a couple reasons why I'm interested in the BBK:

My track pads (Carbotech XP12s) tapered really bad over 4 track days. I probably have to throw away the pads twice as soon as I need to due to the extremely uneven wear. Granted, I'm hard on my brakes -- my DBA slotted front rotors thermal paint indicates I've gotten them at least 1200F.

A well designed multi-piston caliper uses different sized pistons to offset the uneven wear problem. This could save me money in the long run. Those Carbotech pads aren't cheap. They also tend to apply more evenly and consistently since there is no sliding of the caliper.

Also, I got the front left so hot I melted the piston boot in the caliper. I have two rebuild kits on order and hopefully will post what the rebuild process is like.

Changing pads the day before a track event is a bitch with the stock caliper. The design of the stock caliper forces me to take the entire thing off the upright in order to get the pads out instead of taking off the floating piece like the rears. Most BBK's offer convenience of drop-in replacement -- I like this idea... easier from street compound to race.

What I DONT like about the currently available BBK's is that they were designed for the base Mazda 3. I dont know for a fact but I'm willing to bet there is LESS pad area on the current BBK's compared to our stock caliper.

Finally, with respect to the post regarding how much the pads are, Carbotech will put their compound on anyone's pads... they will find the blanks and build them for you at no extra cost. After I got off the phone with them the other day, they recommend that we spend time searching for good cooling options as well. I think I may take off the shield against the back of the rotor unless someone can tell me that's a bad idea.

Now that is some valid reasons for a BBK...but it sounds to me you'd benefit more from a replacement caliper for the stock rotors, then an entire replacement rotor/caliper.

The thing that bothers me so much about the BBK's, is the upsized rotors are only 0.4 inches larger in diameter. That's a huge chunk of change for almost no size change.

I do understand that the caliper is the majority of the cost...so why doesn't someone look into having a replacement caliper made for the stock rotors? That way they'd be more rotor options, we wouldn't have to upsize our wheels (from 16 or 17), and we'd get the benefits from a properly designed multi-piston caliper.

So change the thread from BBK to piston kit :).

I mean honestly, a 13 vs 12.6 inch rotor...that should be called a slightly bigger kit...SBK :).

I have a friend that has a track toy STI and a set of Alcon 6 pistons up front and he can consistently brake from 165+ w/o issue. They are fantastic. I did a ride along and the braking performance was outstanding lap after lap. I would LOVE a set of Alcon's that could fit under 17"'s

Most of the time there is not just a diam. change with a BBK, but a width change also. Most of the time the width increase is better then the diam increase. As long as the whole system is designed corretly as not to induce a bias change. So that half inch in diam. plus at least a quater inch in width is in deed a big change.

Your throwing me for a loop with a few things crossbow, your wheel size info? 16 to 17? You just seem to have it out for BBK's it looks? The pad options will be better if a set of Stoptech's or Wilwood Dynapros were sourced. There are so many benifits that I personal think far outway the cost.

The above poster that torn up boots, thats happening because of the heat im sure you know. Just throwing on a set of better calipers will solve half the problem. A set of 2 piece rotors with that extra diam. and width will be the full solution.

I agree that the larger the rotor, the increased heat sinking capacity, so that will certainly not hurt... but what's the pad area? This is also paramount. Like I said before, I want to know for sure that I'm getting more pad on the rotor than I am with the stock caliper. I don't know for a fact, but I'm willing to bet current BBK's (designed for the base 3) have LESS.

What's important is that we get more pad on the rotor, enlarge the rotor for more heat capacity, use a multi-piston design for even wear, and improve cooling.

Have you guys seen how close that damn shield sits to the rotor? I'm going to yank it.

In reference to the pad options, there may be more with other brands, but I don't really care because Carbotech will be supplying my compound.

I'm interested to see what ends up being produced. Hopefully it's a real MS3 oriented kit.

With a 4 Piston caliper, you have to have more pad. Unless you've found a way to put a tiny 1 piston pad in a 4 pot caliper.

I'll restate my opinoins again since they are a bit confusing.

I don't like BBK's when...

1) The stock system is more sufficient for repeated consistent braking at high speeds for extended lap sessions (with track pads)

2) The BBK's force you to upsize your wheel choices. You can fit 16x8's on the speed3 (as the smallest choice possible), which lowers your tire cost, and can expand on tire choices. If the BBK forced you out of stock wheel selections (having to fit 19's), it would be a huge negative.

3) When the BBK's are thrown together more as a "oooh look at me" and come along side with xdrilled or xdrilled/slotted as the only options, which have no place in a performance solution.

4) When the BBK kit uses a set of rotors/pads that require you to go through a limited choice of manufacturer for replacement components, increasing cost significantly.

*5) When forums drive up the demand for a BBK, a company spends R+D creating a great, properly designed kit, then puts it on the market...and 2 people out of the original 30+ buy it, wasting a huge amount of time and money. (This one is personal, Todd from TCE Performance Products - Producing Winning Results since 1993 designed a kit for the Mazda6 guys back in 04...2 guys bought it from the original 30 or so... :( )


Things I agree on.

I agree on width aspect of the replacement rotors. I had forgotten to include that in my previous statements, and you're right, increasing width is as important as diameter.

I did not know that the stock pad's were a total PITA to change. I had to skip the track this year due to financial reasons, so haven't put the track pads in yet. However if it's the difference of a few minutes vs 30 seconds, I think it still wouldn't be that huge of a deal. But I'll hold final comment back for when I do my pads.

A multi-piston caliper will provide for more even pad engagement and wear. There is however diminishing returns. (6 vs 4 piston, etc)

If the stock braking system is running hot, you'll get increased rotor wear from having to run a more aggressive track pad. You will have to take these costs into consideration (replacing rotors/pads every 4 days or so) against the cost of a BBK which could reduce the replacement times to 8 track days or longer. (Because you could run a less aggressive pad and get the same consistency).

As to my tire/wheel choice, I'm current running Kosei K1-TS 17x8, with 225/45/17 RT615 Falken's. Next tires will probably be Hankook Z212 Ventus 235/40/17, or a more street friendly tire (with a second set of kosei's for the track) 235/45/17 Goodyear F1 Asymetricals.

My pad/rotor choice was most likely going to be the same, DBA front rotors, with Carbotech XP11 or 12's.

I could see the benefits of a properly designed BBK with extended component life, I'd buy a well desigened kit if it ment saving cash with less pad and rotor replacement. I think I'd rather see an option for a wider, vented rear disc first. I know the rears don't do much work but that didn't seem to stop me from overheating and destroying them my last time out...

spheed3:

Try to remember that the rear rotors cooked the pads due to the stock pad compound which isn't designed to operate in that temperature range, not because the rotors were operating outside of an appropriate temperature range.

I urge everyone that has not read about the common myths of braking systems to read this Stoptech article: StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

This covers more than just the "warped" disc myth, but also compounds and the way the compounds interact with the rotor surface.

To summarize: Simply stated, building a pad comound comes down to a battle between cold and hot performance (there are other concerns, but this is the biggie). Materials that we have today can operate in some given temperature range, and with better engineering, you might increase that range some, but there is a limit inherint in the materials. However, by selecting different amounts of different materials, we can take the entire range and shift it to the "right". In other words, increase the lowest temp operating point in order to increase the highest temp operating point...

So if a street pad is good from roughly ambient to say 800 degrees F before fade and destruction, a race pad may be good from 200 F to 1200 F. Note the increase in cold performance... the pad is considered unsafe until it hits 200 degrees... Some of Carbotech's compounds are good up to 2000 F, but dont expect to use these for daily driving because you will never get the pad into the normal operating zone.

I hope this and the Stoptech article shed some light on braking systems and I also recommend folks read the other Stoptech technical articles as well. Those guys know their stuff!

x2

Yes, they do. ;)

I agree and thank you. I was thinking a vented rotor for the rear purely for increased pad life. I did this on my mustang back in the day and the extra pad life was worth the $100 to upgrade to vented rears.

BBK necessary?
 

Personally, I'm a Track Junkie. I've probably driven 25-30 racetracks around the country in a number of different vehicles. I'm also a Porsche club driving instructor that has run One Lap of America ten times now. I just bought a MS3, but I will probably start monkeying with the brakes soon. Heck, it's what I do...

Todd at TCE has been helpful to me over the years. The brake line parts that he made available to me on my SRT4 helped me out a lot. At the national SRT meet at Heartland Park in 2006 he told me that I'd be unhappy with the Wilwood SL6 caliper that I was using to upgrade my brakes on the Dodge. He was wrong, they were great. The Carbotech pads (XP8) that were provided for my use during One Lap in 2007 (against my wishes, as I had requested XP10s), were another story. In (8) laps around Miller Motorsports Park (4 on the short course, 4 on the full course) I completely consumed a new set of XP8 pads. I did however reach 147mph on the main straightaway - and successfully slowed down to make turn 1...

The diameter of the rotors on the MS3 looks fine to me. They should work well for a car of this weight - though I do wish that the car was lighter. My Neon's chassis is woefully flexible, but it weighs correspondingly less as well. I haven't changed any pads on the MS3 yet, but the ease by which pads can be changed on the SL6 caliper (for example) couldn't be easier. A 3/16" allen wrench, 7/16" box end wrench, a flathead screwdriver and 5 minutes of your time is all that you need to do a pad change. Very convenient indeed.

My first look at pictures of the MS3 rotors is the reason that I brought up the SRT4. For use on the racetrack, that thing had PITIFUL braking from the factory. They used a 1.1" thick rotor (better than the ~1" used on most cars), but there was almost NO airspace for ventilation/heat dissipation. The extra mass of the rotor allowed the rotors to absorb more heat, but once they got hot your brakes were toast - even with good Carbotech XP10 pads (with extra thick backing plates for rigidity purposes) in place.

The MS3 seems to have taken the same path with their factory brake setup. On the Mazda though, they kept the rotor thickness down to 0.98" - but at a significantly larger overall diameter than that on the SRT4 (12.6 vs. 11.0). If I took my MS3 out onto the track today, I anticipate that I'd be unable to stop it rather quickly. Heat dissipation is critical, and the rotor used on the MS3 doesn't appear to have it. On the street, the stock brakes are probably just fine though.

My first step is going to be to build a new two piece rotor and give that a try. If it's not enough, then I'll add brake ducting to bring in additional cooling air. Then and only then would I consider replacing the caliper and potentially moving up to a larger rotor.

I looked through the Wilwood catalog and they have a rotor and hat combination that should work pretty well for replacing the MS3 stock rotors. The benefit in doing this is that the new rotor will be of a 32 curved cooling vane design. The "fan" effect of the curved vanes will pull air through the rotor to aid in cooling, and the greater air space in the center of the rotor will provide much more surface area for heat dissipation.

I have no idea how much the OEM rotors weigh, but I suspect that there will be a significant reduction in unsprung/rotating mass when the rotors are replaced. I have some "used" Neon rotors hanging around that I'm going to use to make up a sample set. If I'm lucky, I won't have to turn the 12.9" rotor down to 12.6" to make it fit, but maybe I can do that on the auto parts store's rotor turning machine. Otherwise, a trip to a local machine shop for access to a lathe will be required.

The upside to an upgrade like this is that ANY wheel that fits a stock MS3 will fit one with the new 2 piece rotor. Also, the friction surfaces can be changed when necessary at lower cost than buying an entire rotor. Stop Tech charges something like $800 or $900 for new rotors. Who can afford that on a wear item? I know I can't.

I'll keep you posted on how this works, and if I think that going with a BBK is a worthwhile investment. As a builder of these systems, I can assure you that it's tough to get enough customers to justify the expense of designing and building something for any particular vehicle. That's why everyone wants a bulk buy to get the ball rolling. Regardless of the money received from those first kits though, the manufacturer is not going to recover their development costs. That's why there are so few kits out there for you guys to choose from right now.


Greg Hagopian

In response to the last post:

I understand that you have had lots of experience on the track, but it does not seem as though you have had much time on the track with this platform... so I thought I'd chime in.

DBA already makes a great rotor (although not 2 piece design) that really dissipates heat well...

Also, the stock brakes are outstanding. For the occasional track day with track pads, no one really needs an upgrade.

My reasons for wanting an upgrade aren't due to performance at all. Simply put, I want a more reliable, multi-piston caliper that will extend pad life (since pads wont taper), along with the convenience of a fast pad change.

I am excited to follow your 2 piece rotor work, however, to save weight. Keep us posted on this!!

I bet you will find that the stock system is more than enough with good pads for occasional track use.

You would be correct, I have little experience driving an MS3 on the track. My track experience with this particular platform has been limited to instructing students who are driving this particular vehicle.

While no braking issues were noted during those events, students are generally learning how to drive and don't tend to stress the braking system in the same manner as a more experienced track driver would. I believe that you are correct though in stating that most occasional track visitors would not find themselves in need of a BBK, or anything other than good rotors/pads for that matter.

I actually started my "research" on this vehicle out at the DBA website. They are one of the easiest obtainable sources for rotor dimensional information. I did not notice any Kangaroo paw rotors available for this platform in their on-line catalog though. Actually, that surprised me at first. I had hoped to give those a shot first as an off the shelf solution.

Can I interpret from your post that the OEM setup tapers brake pads? The mere heft of the original system would tend to make me think that this wouldn't be a problem, but if it is, I can understand you desiring a stronger caliper.

One thing that I would tend to caution you about though is that not all multi-piston calipers are going to qualify as being significantly better than stock. For example, the Wilwood Dynalite caliper is not strong enough to stand up to the hydraulic pressures present in a power assisted brake system. They tend to flex, making the pedal feel "spongey" and wearing the brake pads in tapered manner. The manufacturer rates them for up to 1500PSI as I recall, and your power braking system can potentially generate as much as 3000PSI in a high speed panic stop situation.

The Superlite caliper is stronger and should experience lower flex levels, but I moved away from even that caliper a while back (the forged ones that they make now are supposed to be stronger than the Billet ones we used to use were, but I have no personal experience with this particular product). I really like the Superlite6 (SL6) myself. Very little taper on the brake pads, and they have good structural integrity. Light weight too. Naturally, as the calipers get stronger, their price goes up correspondingly. I'm not trying to talk you into or out of any particular product, just passing on the benefit of my personal experience.

I'll continue to update folks with information on the potential 2 piece rotor swap. I don't know how much the OEM rotors weigh, but I'll bet the two piece units come in around 12 pounds or so. As I've not had the system apart yet, and the aftermarket rotors were designed for use with Wilwood style brake calipers, I have no idea how the OEM pads will mate up with these friction surfaces. A reduction in swept area may be discovered when I get something put together that I can actually try out. Again, I'll keep you posted.

Actually, I'm pretty sure DBA does make a "kangaroo paw" rotor for this car (the "standard" option):

Mazdaspeed 3 Front DBA Brake Rotors - 4000 Series

...or maybe it's a mistake. :dunno:

well, the other nice thing is that my company is coming out with a 2-piece rotor that we have worked with Todd on. It's going to be under $450 and will save 11lbs per corner.

Hmm, guess I didn't realize that the 4000 series rotors were of the Kangaroo paw configuration. I hadn't been out to the DBA web site in quite some time, but I thought that I remembered that they were listed as a separate product line. Looks like I was wrong, sorry. I didn't mean to mislead anyone.

As for Todd working with someone to come out with a 2 piece rotor for $450 (pair I assume?), that's great! I'd be interested in trying a set. Would certainly be cheaper than building my own. Any more information on those rotors that you can pass on? I'm hoping for a curved cooling vane design. 11 pounds per rotor is a ton of rotational/unsprung mass. These rotors, along with a lightweight set of rims, would most likely be something that you'd notice during heavy acceleration.

Ban....

YOUR company is NOT an approved vendor, nor do you meet my standards for business in my community. You have been warned, you have been PM'd, but now you are plain disrespecting the authority of my moderators, who really, dont have to do much. Since you decided to disregard their only enforcement of a rule, you have disrespected me at the same time.

Some people never learn...

As I mentioned in another thread, I was fortunate enough to have been one of Greg's students. I'd just like to add that he was very impressed with the size of the MS3's glovebox. At one point, I think we discussed converting it into a mini-fridge while waiting to be let out onto the track.

Greg, I hope your two-piece rotor solution will be available in time for me to have it installed before the PCA this fall. I also hope you decide to bring your MS3 to the track. Good to have you as part of the MS3 community; when I left the track last fall I didn't think you were that serious about picking one up.

-Gary

Thanks Gary, I appreciate the sentiment. If I come up with something that works well, I might just lend you some parts to try them out and see how you feel about them. With the extra rubber that you're sporting these days, you'll find more effective braking even more rewarding than you did last fall on the narrower tires.

You are correct in that I wasn't exactly convinced that the MS3 would be a good car for me in my situation, but when Mazda decided to slap a $2500 rebate on leftover 2008 models recently/currently, I decided that the bang for the buck factor was simply too good to overlook.

How it pans out (for me) out on the racetrack is uncertain at this point, but I'm sure that I'll learn a lot about thrashing it just as soon as I get the chance... My fiancee put enough mileage on the car for me that it's ready for some abuse right now! I suspect that the SCCA will give me plenty of opportunities to explore the MS3's capabilities out at Gateway this summer.


Greg Hagopian
Hye-Dra-Cyl LLC

I need to pull the reigns in a bit because there are so many more questions I want to ask you, heh. Even more after you've put the car through its paces this summer.

I just turned 26,700 miles a couple of days ago and the OEM pads and rotors probably need to be checked out. I'd be more than happy to guinea pig some parts for you if you need a 2nd test car.

hyedracyl:

Thanks for the info...

To answer your question, yes, with race pads the stock caliper tapers the pads pretty bad. But after speaking with a bunch of brake gurus, I dont think the caliper is tapering the pads due to its strength, but rather to the single piston being centered in the caliper. Taper is caused by the front of the pad taking the brunt of the force for slowing the rotor, right? The rear of the pad has less work to do. So the pad tapers...

Multi-piston calipers alleviate this by placing a smaller piston (less force) on the front of the pad than rear (bigger piston).

After looking into it some more, I think I may have found a way to alleviate the tapering by swapping the front pads left to right after each track day (not a session, but say four 20 minute sessions). This would reverse the tapering effect.

I strongly feel that after improving cooling by removing the dust shield (and maybe adding some ducting) and swapping the pads after each track day, that the stock calipers are more than sufficient, even for the heavy enthusiast. This makes a BBK less appealing, since it may not be necessary for our platform, although like I said before, it buys convenience (easy pad change, no worries for tapering).

I'm excited to see your thoughts after you take the car to the track and run it for yourself... I assume you will throw some race pads on the existing calipers and throw on a set of DBA's or some other variant in the mean time? I'm thinking you would want that baseline in order to know if you improved or worsened the braking system after modification. I think you may be in for a surprise.

Finally, yes, the DBA 4000 slotted series are the kangaroo paw design... so far they have been great.

Keep us posted.

So, the pads are tapering from leading to trailing edge then. The original tapering comment had me expecting a vertical taper, not a horizontal one. The SL6 caliper (for example) has two small pistons on the leading edge of the caliper, with the large piston on the trailing end of the caliper. This does indeed help with the tapering of the pads in the horizontal direction by placing more force at the trailing end of the brake pad.

As for swapping pads from L to R (and vice versa), that would indeed serve to compensate for the horizontal tapering effect observed. It would however do nothing to ameliorate the vertical tapering effect. I'll be curious to observe how the wear pattern actually manifests itself with the OEM setup.

As for configuration (to start from), I will upgrade the pads only for a baseline. Using the OEM pads offers me no real data of any value - as I know that the pads are unlikely to hold up under the kind of strain someone like myself will put them under.

With pad wear data in hand, then I'm liable to proceed to the rotor upgrade. After that, brake ducting for greater cooling - though removing the backing plates would probably not be on my agenda. I would tend to modify them to accept the brake duct tubing, so that the high pressure air is forced into the center of the brake rotor. Having something to attach the brake duct tubing to (modified backing plates) would make the ducting setup easier to manage, and more effective as well.

While I will definitely miss the ease with which pad changes can be performed with aftermarket calipers, leaving the car as close as possible to stock has its own benefits as well. I see that folks are having some difficulty with warranty issues when their cars break. Not having to explain (to the dealer) the reason why there are 6 piston calipers mounted to your car will have great value in such a situation. You know that the dealer is going to postulate abuse when they see monster brakes and tires that display heavy outside tread block wear patterns!

I'll do my best to chime in with what I learn as I learn it.


Greg Hagopian
Hye-Dra-Cyl LLC

Yeah, your rear rotors look pretty bad....but i guess if those are the original pads...then they should look bad at this point.

I personally think that the prospect of having lighter rotors is exciting. If there is one thing that i feel that this car has too much of (not to bring out the torches and pitchforks) is weight in the front end. After running the Hawk HPS, which i'm not nearly as satisfied with on this car as on my Protege, i would like to explore getting better pads before droping the money for a BBK. However, if i were to drop the money for the BBK, then i would probably want soemthing that is more balanced than BBK/front & OEM/rear....but that is just me....

So, light rotors, more aggressive pads, and lighter wheels (my current wheels are 22 lbs 5zigens and i would like to get something in the 17lbs or less range....17x8 RPF1 @ about 16lbs here i come!)....then if needed BBK.

HyeDraCyl-

So, you're the one to blame for the..."well first off you are sitting too far back...blah blah blah"---Gary:smashfreakB:

As if i didnt have to hear enough of that with my last room mate....now i got to here from Gary!:18:

...just jokes....

Maybe i should try to get some lessons!

We all have to start somewhere! It's pretty hard to learn much out on the street - as those other pesky drivers are always in the way! When you feel the need to get some instruction though, there are plenty of guys like me out there willing to help you out. Hopefully, we'll be seeing you soon.

Greg

Greg, if you come up with a better braking solution, i would be willing to test some of them out for you, if you would have me.

I have 2 questions (sorry if the answers are in here somewhere and I missed them)

Do the MS3 and MS6 have the same brakes?

Are there any 2-piece rotors out there?

I'm definitely interested in lighter brake discs. I would like better calipers but I can live without them, so price matters.

The MS3 and the MS6 do NOT use the exact same brakes (though someone once told me they may use the same pads front pads :dunno: ).

As far as I know, there is still not a direct replacement 2-piece rotor available for either.

Alex, you should attend the StL PCA with me this fall. We won't be in the same group, but it'll be cool just hangin out. Godzilla was on the track this spring; my buddy called me from GIR to let me know but I couldn't make it down there.

I get the feeling your old roommate bugged the crap outta you with unwanted instruction...don't let preconceived notions get in the way of learning if you do decide to have fun getting the point-by from older Boxsters. It'd be sweet if you got Greg as an instructor right off the bat.

Until my brakes are squealing constantly and not just when they're cold, I'm gonna hold off on anything. Additional mods for the car are on hold indefinitely as well.......because I just bought me a motorcycle! :D

Yes. Alcon 2-piece rotors for the Mazdaspeed 3, but price is about $1,400 a pair.

I'm also interested in Ms3 2-piece rotors and tried to participate in a group buy with Girodisc, but ended up being that I was the onlyl one that ponied up the money so the GB fell through.

I've contacted Racing Brake in their forums and the RB person replying in the forums seemed open to the idea of 2-piece Ms3 rotors. They seem to be about half the price of the Alcon units. I also called RB recently and spoke to one of the owners/founders, Warren, but his customer service skills were lacking.

Do you guys know of any other 2-piece brake rotors for the Ms3?

KVR Performance Brakes

Awesome thanks. Found that in the Toronto 3 forums. Also found 1 thread in another forum:

See them here first............

KVR 2 Piece SS Front Rotors for MS3

The weird thing is although the KVR link still works, I called them earlier today and they stated they're no longer in the business of making 2-piece rotors. WTH.

Another thing is that KVR lists this part number (MA883SS) for both the Ms3 and Ms6, but I thought there are slight differences in OEM rotor dimensions for both. Maybe that's why one guy in the Toronto 3 forums stated the hat was thinner and caliper clearance changed by 3-4 mm.

The boys over at Freedom Autosport are using 2 piece rotors on the Continental Challenge MS3's. Try contacting Glenn (Long Road Racing) over there and ask if they are available for purchase. I believe he quoted me around $800 for the pair.

Wow I called and he actually has not one but two applications available. Called at the end of the day so he asked me to email him, that way he can send me price, info, pics, etc. I think I'm going to start a new thread and update it as the info comes in. Thanks man!