Gen1 SWIFT SPRINGS INTEREST THREAD

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by rednofive I'm curious... why would you want to replace your Eibach's? Two squishy (don't like the progressive nature)?

Not sure about the poster you quoted, but that's exactly why I would like to replace mine. They're soft, and due to being progressive, extremely soft at the start of travel, leading to more body roll.

[Mizzle]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial leading to more body roll.

Have sways?

[BigRedSpecial]

Not yet. JBR RSB is on the list. I can feel the springs though... the car rolls a little, then stays at that angle through the turn. On harder/faster turns it probably doesn't make a difference, as I'm into the meat of the spring anyway, but I feel it on slower, everyday turning.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

We haz these in stock

[PreyStayShun]

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport We haz these in stock

Spec R or sports? (sorry there's like pages of shit here)

Pm'd

[Mizzle]

I ask because sways will control roll... so you may end up liking the Eibachs again.

[BigRedSpecial]

You're right, but stiffer, linear springs will control it even more, especially initial roll on slow turns.

On top of that I'm going to be getting into autox this year, and I've read a lot on progressive springs promoting snap oversteer.

[rednofive]

Originally Posted by BigRedSpecial Not sure about the poster you quoted, but that's exactly why I would like to replace mine. They're soft, and due to being progressive, extremely soft at the start of travel, leading to more body roll.

BigRedSpecial

Thanks.

Would you say there was more initial roll with the eibach's than with the stock springs?

[BigRedSpecial]

I actually bought the car with the eibachs on it, so I don't have a direct comparison. I have driven another 3 with the stock springs which seemed more planted to me, but I was comparing it to my old sunfire at the time

To me, the roll is very slight, and once it rolls that initial couple degrees it firms up nicely and doesn't roll any more, even in sharp/fast corners. My issue is that in daily driving it seems to roll more than, say, a Cobalt SS. Could also all be a reverse placebo effect because I'm more critical of my own car. Take it with a bushel of salt.

[daafisch]

Figured I would post up with some impressions. First off I still need to get the car aligned so I'm not sure if that's going to skew my opinion at all.

As for the drops. They are pretty much spot on to what Swift had said, the front dropped about an inch and the rear about .6 inches. The exact measurements are at home but I'll re check them after the alignment just to make sure nothing changes.

Performance is pretty much as everyone else has claimed. They are great. Just crusing along on the highway you can feel the little road cracks a little more but it's not too much worse than stock. Rough roads are definitely a harder ride but that's to be expected with this spring rate. Overall the car feels fantastic. I'll be autocrossing on Sunday so I'll give my impressions of that as well when it comes. Overall these seem to be worth every penny.

[fengrs]

Originally Posted by daafisch Figured I would post up with some impressions. First off I still need to get the car aligned so I'm not sure if that's going to skew my opinion at all. As for the drops. They are pretty much spot on to what Swift had said, the front dropped about an inch and the rear about .6 inches. The exact measurements are at home but I'll re check them after the alignment just to make sure nothing changes. Performance is pretty much as everyone else has claimed. They are great. Just crusing along on the highway you can feel the little road cracks a little more but it's not too much worse than stock. Rough roads are definitely a harder ride but that's to be expected with this spring rate. Overall the car feels fantastic. I'll be autocrossing on Sunday so I'll give my impressions of that as well when it comes. Overall these seem to be worth every penny.

Sweet, what did u set ur Koni's too? Hopefully theres no need for camber arms or rolling fenders with these springs.

Anybody make the switch from eibach to these yet. I'm curious on comparisons.

[daafisch]

I left my koni's at the levels I already had them at. I'm going to call the alignment shop tomorrow and hopefully get in there Thursday or Friday. I'm hoping I wont need camber arms but from reading posts that people with Cobb springs didn't need them I think I'll be fine.

As far as rolling the fenders, I already have mine rolled some mainly because I have some pretty wide tires. (245/40r17 on 17x8's +45)

[daafisch]

Ran my first autocross on this setup yesterday and the car felt great, also helped me place second in class.

As for alignments, the car was still in spec when I took it in. Lost the sheet so I'm not sure what the final camber numbers were.

[franz]

Did any of you guys have issues with the top coil and strut mount. When I lined it up with the tab it did not sit right. I had to rotate it another 20-30 degrees so that it sat flush. I have not brought it in for alignment yet, but I would assume if my camber is way off I did not do it right.

Sent from the ether.

[daafisch]

Same thing on mine, I just rotated it till it was flush.

[specvspeedfreak]

Are the few gen1 owners on Swifts generally happy?..

[daafisch]

Yes

[fengrs]

Originally Posted by specvspeedfreak Are the few gen1 owners on Swifts generally happy?..

Do the gen2 owners have to do the same thing with rotating the springs to sit flush even though it sits past the tab.

[specvspeedfreak]

Originally Posted by fengrs Do the gen2 owners have to do the same thing with rotating the springs to sit flush even though it sits past the tab.

not rotating the spring but rotating the top hat a lil... all the springs I have installed sit a lil at an angle before you actually bolt it together.. I guess I would need to see what you guys are talking to make certain it's what I'm thinking.

[daafisch]

Exactly what you just said, having to rotate the tophat a little to get them to sit flush. I don't remember if I had to with my Roadmagnets but it doesn't really matter to me. The car rides great and I don't see or feel any ill effects.

[fengrs]

Thanks, I just wanted to make sure there's no ill effects since I'm still contemplating buying these over my not installed prokits. Still waiting on direct comparisons between the two as I know some folks switched over.

heeltoe

[Tomas]

I've been running these springs for 3 days now on Koni FSD 4045.
Better than H&R and Eibach. Not as good as Cobb. Just my opinion.
The rears clunk a little under certain types of road conditions. The fronts feel solid but they are softer than Cobb and bump stop contact is more frequent.
Same thing as mentioned earlier, spring seat on bottom of top hat needs to be rotated till coil sits flushest with the dish. Indexing notch might not be aligned with the end of coil after this..

[specvspeedfreak]

Originally Posted by Tomas I've been running these springs for 3 days now on Koni FSD 4045. Better than H&R and Eibach. Not as good as Cobb. Just my opinion. The rears clunk a little under certain types of road conditions. The fronts feel solid but they are softer than Cobb and bump stop contact is more frequent. Same thing as mentioned earlier, spring seat on bottom of top hat needs to be rotated till coil sits flushest with the dish. Indexing notch might not be aligned with the end of coil after this..

Why did you deter from cobb springs; The drop for the Swift up front might be too much for FSD's... I don't know what clunking you are getting, maybe check all the bolts and make sure they are all tight... As far as spring rates, what are the rates for cobb?

[daafisch]

From what I have read Cobb is 216F / 214R

[franz]

Alright I installed my Swift springs and Bilsteins this weekend. I wanted to drive it a bit and get an alignment before I posted anything.

Height testing: Measured on flat concrete slab using front and rear jack points.

Before:
OEM front struts
KYB GR-2 rears
Stock springs.
Driver side about 1/8-1/4"" higher than passenger side.

After:
Swift Spec R springs
Bilstein B8 Sport Struts/Shocks
New front strut mounts and bushings.
Reused rear bump stops and mounts.
Driver side still about 1/8-1/4" higher than passenger side.

Front Drop: ~5/8" Rear Drop: ~1/4" YRMV
Rear camber: Before: -2.1* After: -2.4* SPC camber arms already ordered.

My only opinion on the ride is...

I wish I could offer a professional review, but I am no suspension guru. Just know this. The car feels great and is about 10x better than stock. I have noticed some bounciness on certain roads, but other than that its been fantastic. I plan on taking a test drive in another Speed 3 with Bilsteins/CS springs to see how it compares.

Before/After pics:

[specvspeedfreak]

franz, you did remove the front bump stop with the bilstein right?

[franz]

Originally Posted by specvspeedfreak franz, you did remove the front bump stop with the bilstein right?

Yep. I read somewhere that the bilstein uses internal stops in the struts.

Didnt matter much anyways because the stock ones were toast and fell to pieces when I disassembled the old strut/spring.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by specvspeedfreak Why did you deter from cobb springs; The drop for the Swift up front might be too much for FSD's... I don't know what clunking you are getting, maybe check all the bolts and make sure they are all tight... As far as spring rates, what are the rates for cobb?

I just wanted to see what all the hype about the swifts was about. Still prefer linear however. That's all. On Bills and stock dampers the progressive springs might provide for a more compliant ride but on the FSD's progressive is exactly what you don't want or need.

Don't know the spring rates. Not that it matters anyway IMO since you can't compare them to swift. Cobb is linear front and rear unlike everything else except stock.

Ideal would be some hypercoil linear springs. Again just my opinion.

[specvspeedfreak]

Originally Posted by Tomas I just wanted to see what all the hype about the swifts was about. Still prefer linear however. That's all. On Bills and stock dampers the progressive springs might provide for a more compliant ride but on the FSD's progressive is exactly what you don't want or need. Don't know the spring rates. Not that it matters anyway IMO since you can't compare them to swift. Cobb is linear front and rear unlike everything else except stock. Ideal would be some hypercoil linear springs. Again just my opinion.

Your wrong on that part. Swift is linear, I have said this before. Bottom coils collapse at static height and become linear.

Most people think since the coils are closer they are progressive (sometimes that is the case) but progressiveness is best seen on a shock dyno and not just physically..

and CS is linear as well, I think

[Mizzle]

Originally Posted by Tomas Still prefer linear however. That's all. On Bills and stock dampers the progressive springs might provide for a more compliant ride but on the FSD's progressive is exactly what you don't want or need.

As it's said above, they're linear.

Strange that Koni includes progressive springs in other FSD kits...

[Tomas]

Well, people are entitled to their own opinion as to the springs being linear. Because in my opinion that's just what it is. An opinion.

I look at it this way:

If the spring rates Swift lists are for the linear part of the spring, that would mean they'd have to compress the spring till the idle coils are in full contact and then, measure the spring rate. So if the dead coils have 1 kg spring rate and compressing the whole spring into the linear range reads as 6Kg that would mean the actual spring rate is 5 kgs?

There is still spring rate on the dead coils. Even if they are fully compressed at standard ride height. H&R and Eibach are exactly the same. Swift can call their springs what they want, to me they're still progressive.

[specvspeedfreak]

Originally Posted by Tomas Well, people are entitled to their own opinion as to the springs being linear. Because in my opinion that's just what it is. An opinion. I look at it this way: If the spring rates Swift lists are for the linear part of the spring, that would mean they'd have to compress the spring till the idle coils are in full contact and then, measure the spring rate. So if the dead coils have 1 kg spring rate and compressing the whole spring into the linear range reads as 6Kg that would mean the actual spring rate is 5 kgs? There is still spring rate on the dead coils. Even if they are fully compressed at standard ride height. H&R and Eibach are exactly the same. Swift can call their springs what they want, to me they're still progressive.

It's not a opinion if springs are linear or progressive

From Swift:

"They are not a progressive spring in any way. A progressive spring is a springs that progressively gets stiffer as you compress the spring. The technical name for our spring is called a two-step linear spring. Our spring is not a progression from one rate to another, it is 2 fixed rates.
Let me use another example. Lets say you have a set of coilovers on your car. If you have helper springs on the coilovers would that be considered a progressive spring? No. It wouldn’t. Our coiled up portion is helper spring to take up slack in the shock. I wrote an email to you earlier about why we need to do that.

We measure the spring by the amount of preload put onto the shock and also where the car will be sitting at static height. On rebound the spring rate is still in effect about 2 inches of rebound. Now when the corner is fully unloaded the helper will take up the slack, so the spring does not flop around."


Hope this clarifies this.. Don't want people getting mislead

[accela]

Originally Posted by Tomas Well, people are entitled to their own opinion as to the springs being linear. Because in my opinion that's just what it is. An opinion. I look at it this way: If the spring rates Swift lists are for the linear part of the spring, that would mean they'd have to compress the spring till the idle coils are in full contact and then, measure the spring rate. So if the dead coils have 1 kg spring rate and compressing the whole spring into the linear range reads as 6Kg that would mean the actual spring rate is 5 kgs? There is still spring rate on the dead coils. Even if they are fully compressed at standard ride height. H&R and Eibach are exactly the same. Swift can call their springs what they want, to me they're still progressive.

Mr. Tomas the spring expert. I think its better that you dont really say anything. You dont have a clue about what your talking about, and spitting out blind misleading information defeats the purpose of this thread.

and for your info your math on the spring rate is wrong as well. If you stack a 6kg on top of a 1kg, the combined rate would be 2.7kg/mm until the 1kg helper is fully collapsed then its 6kg.

[Tomas]

^^^ Oh hai! Is that a picture of you in your avatar?
I am sorry for saying this since you seem to be a blithering imbecile, but this is grown up talk. Go back to sucking your sister's titty you incestuous little twit.

[Mizzle]

Butthurt much? Lol Don't try to use big words to save yourself.

[Tomas]

^When are you installing your ratler? lolololol. And why do you PM me for advice then?

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by specvspeedfreak It's not a opinion if springs are linear or progressive From Swift: "They are not a progressive spring in any way. A progressive spring is a springs that progressively gets stiffer as you compress the spring. The technical name for our spring is called a two-step linear spring. Our spring is not a progression from one rate to another, it is 2 fixed rates. Let me use another example. Lets say you have a set of coilovers on your car. If you have helper springs on the coilovers would that be considered a progressive spring? No. It wouldn’t. Our coiled up portion is helper spring to take up slack in the shock. I wrote an email to you earlier about why we need to do that. We measure the spring by the amount of preload put onto the shock and also where the car will be sitting at static height. On rebound the spring rate is still in effect about 2 inches of rebound. Now when the corner is fully unloaded the helper will take up the slack, so the spring does not flop around." Hope this clarifies this.. Don't want people getting mislead

Well, first of all thanks for getting Swift to make these springs in the first place and always relaying Q&As to and from them.

So we'll say I am full of shit and the Swift springs are 2 step and not progressive. Progressive being unevenly spaced coils accross the whole spring and 2 step where there are only 2 different spacings between coils.

You can make your opinion whether H&R and Eibach are any different or whether they are also 2 step.

From H&R
http://www.hrsprings.com/technical/f...sked-questions

Are H&R spring progressive?
All H&R OE Sport Springs, Sport Springs, Super Sport Springs are progressive when possible for the application.

From Eibach

http://performance-suspension.eibach...o_kit__step_1_

Every Eibach Pro-Kit is designed and tested by our suspension engineers and performance driving professionals, to deliver aggressive good looks and high performance handling, without ever compromising safety or ride quality. By using our proprietary, progressive spring design, Pro-Kit provides the ultimate balance to take your passion for driving to a whole new level.

[Mizzle]

Installed these over the past week.

I say this because I got the rears with FSDs and tiny bump stops (I didn't see a need for larger ones since the springs are stiffer,) installed last Thursday... but still had factory front suspension.

Now, before I get into my impressions on the whole setup, I have to mention what it was like with this setup. Highway bumps and jolts were the most controlled out of any car I've ever driven.

This worried me.

The control experienced was from the extreme difference in spring rate ratios F/R. With a "soft," spring up front and a "stiff," one in back plus less weight in the rear, this meant the car caught up to any bump immediately. This also meant that it could mean that highway comfort would be reduced when the fronts were installed.

This is true.

I've installed the fronts and while the overall handling is pretty tits (and they work flawlessly with FSDs, btw,) the semi-mushy bleh feeling over gaps and small bumps has made a comeback, though it's still 95% better than it was (with the previous setup being 100%.)

My only recommendation to Swift would be to further increase the rear rate to bring that ratio back, but obviously a greater deal of testing would be necessary to see if it hurt things anywhere else.

Note: I used GroundControl stiff bump stops all the way around and they're working perfectly. If factory-style bump stop rates were used in calculating spring rates, this needs to stop.

[specvspeedfreak]

I had to re-read what you said a few times cause it was kinda hard to understand.. Especially the fact that you like them ...

So basically you tried them on with rears only, this included fsd's and smaller bump stops.
then you installed the Swifts for the front and 5% of the mushy feeling came back

Maybe removing whatever weight in the back your talking will help

But to clear it up.. You had FSD's all around (just not the GC bump stops) installed before the Swift's?

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Mizzle Installed these over the past week. I say this because I got the rears with FSDs and tiny bump stops (I didn't see a need for larger ones since the springs are stiffer,) installed last Thursday... but still had factory front suspension. Now, before I get into my impressions on the whole setup, I have to mention what it was like with this setup. Highway bumps and jolts were the most controlled out of any car I've ever driven. This worried me. The control experienced was from the extreme difference in spring rate ratios F/R. With a "soft," spring up front and a "stiff," one in back plus less weight in the rear, this meant the car caught up to any bump immediately. This also meant that it could mean that highway comfort would be reduced when the fronts were installed. This is true. I've installed the fronts and while the overall handling is pretty tits (and they work flawlessly with FSDs, btw,) the semi-mushy bleh feeling over gaps and small bumps has made a comeback, though it's still 95% better than it was (with the previous setup being 100%.) My only recommendation to Swift would be to further increase the rear rate to bring that ratio back, but obviously a greater deal of testing would be necessary to see if it hurt things anywhere else. Note: I used GroundControl stiff bump stops all the way around and they're working perfectly. If factory-style bump stop rates were used in calculating spring rates, this needs to stop.

Undoubtedly one of the most articulate and eloquent threads in MSF history.
This is true