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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


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 Old 06-08-2015, 11:11 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
Could u tuck it under Ur seat lol??
A little bit, yeah. It seems like some of the more high end Schroth harnesses have a disconnect in the middle where you could tuck them away a little easier. I'm all about being thrifty, though, haha.

Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Just a brief complement on your smooth driving style, and looking ahead on the course. I can see it from your normal videos, and this one with the camera facing the driver and passenger. Is that an ugraded turbo? It's amazing how you can stay in 3rd and still pull out hard from some slow corners.

Who was the passenger in run 3 ???

Back in history when I competed for class titles, I also had close competition, that I beat by tenths. I had plotted all the time differentials, and found I had a significant gain after spending a day running HSDE's at Summit Point's 2 mile road course.

.
Thanks, those are two things I've worked on over the years. It's a stock turbo, I just have boost coming in pretty early. The low end grunt really helps pull out of the slow places.

Passenger in run 3 was one of the local car guy's girlfriend. I think I remember him saying it was her first time at an autocross, also. They were just out to watch and catch some ride alongs.
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 Old 06-08-2015, 11:53 AM   #362
 
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Ya if the corbeaus work for the same price and just some modifying I would be in as well at a lower price.
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Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
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 Old 06-08-2015, 09:13 PM   #363
 
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@phate; Is your 6 a dd? After having aftermarket seat in my 3, I wouldn't really recommend it since there is no side airbag. I know from personal experience...
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 Old 06-08-2015, 09:20 PM   #364
 
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No it's not a Dd. I drive it when I'm home but I'm only home for a month a year lol.
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Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
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 Old 06-08-2015, 09:32 PM   #365
 
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Originally Posted by naoandlater View Post
Is your 6 a dd? After having aftermarket seat in my 3, I wouldn't really recommend it since there is no side airbag. I know from personal experience...
And Wat u talking about? We've been talking about harnesses not after market seats...
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Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
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 Old 06-08-2015, 09:40 PM   #366
 
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
And Wat u talking about? We've been talking about harnesses not after market seats...
Sorry, my question was for Clint since he was considering getting aftermarket seats.
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 Old 06-09-2015, 08:08 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by naoandlater View Post
@phate; Is your 6 a dd? After having aftermarket seat in my 3, I wouldn't really recommend it since there is no side airbag. I know from personal experience...
Yep, it is. That's a good point. I wasn't going full on racecar with the seats unless/until I get a different daily.
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 Old 06-10-2015, 10:01 AM   #368
 
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I'm very interested in that accelerometer setup. How do you have it fixtured to the car, and where in the car do you mount it? It seems like a great alternative to a VBox, as long as you're capable of processing/reducing the data yourself (obviously true for you). Have you made any attempts at syncing the accelerometer data up with what you're logging from OBDII/AP datalogs? (i.e. figure out what brake/throttle/steering inputs are causing slides, etc.)

3DM-GX3® -25 -- Product no longer stocked ? limited availability
As a comparison, this is a sensor system I've used at my job. The roll/yaw channels (and associated rates) are useful for seeing what the vehicle is doing overall dynamically. Also, the roll sensor means you can correct your lateral acceleration readings for the skew due to roll angle to determine the true values. These IMUs are the type of thing that MotoGP and Superbike teams have been using to "smarten" their traction control/power tailoring algorithms to account for lean angle and slides. They've just made it into bikes you can buy off the showroom floor this year and last, so the technology is getting better and cheaper.
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 Old 06-10-2015, 08:10 PM   #369
 
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Yes, please push @phate; that way

He may not remember it, but I tried to push him towards an IMU/microcontroller setup a while back.

I've played with standalone gyro's and accel's a few years back and the price point, accessibility/knowledgebase, and technological advances with IMUs available to consumers today have come a long way.

That and integration/syncing with ECU data stream...

https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/160
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 Old 06-18-2015, 05:56 PM   #370
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It's been a while since I updated

__________________________________________________ _______________________

Originally Posted by Crarrs View Post
I'm very interested in that accelerometer setup. How do you have it fixtured to the car, and where in the car do you mount it? It seems like a great alternative to a VBox, as long as you're capable of processing/reducing the data yourself (obviously true for you). Have you made any attempts at syncing the accelerometer data up with what you're logging from OBDII/AP datalogs? (i.e. figure out what brake/throttle/steering inputs are causing slides, etc.)
Mounting has gone through a couple revisions already, haha. The x2-2 circuitry isn't affected by magnets, so I've found that to be the easiest. The setups were:

1) small round magnets, mounted down below the cup holders onto the chassis metal. Works fine in 3's, but space is really limited down there in the 6's.

2) Velcro'd to the bottom of the center console. That lasted until I pulled the sensor off of it and the velcro came with it.

3) Got some stronger and bigger squarish magnets from radio shack. I stuck two of them to the bottom of the X2-2, and stuck 2 of them to the bottom of the center console (so 2 stacks of 2 magnets). This is what I'm currently using, and it seems to work well. It's easy to get to, and the magnets are strong enough that you don't have to worry about it sliding around at all. I was also able to get better alignment out of the sensor this way, since the bottom is completely flat.

Magnets on accelerometer

Magnets in center console

Accelerometer mounted in console


When it comes to data analysis, I'm a very visual person. The easiest way I've found to align everything is using Race Render 3 and syncing the video, AP logs, and accelerometer logs. The problem I'm having right now is that the accelerometer logs so fast (currently 256Hz) that the output gauge seems really jumpy, because race render's smoothing isn't sufficient. Smoothing is on my list right now, anyway, so I think I'll be able to take care of it pretty soon. [The other problem is forgetting to turn on the AP to data log every run!]


__________________________________________________ _______________________



Originally Posted by Crarrs View Post
3DM-GX3® -25 -- Product no longer stocked ? limited availability
As a comparison, this is a sensor system I've used at my job. The roll/yaw channels (and associated rates) are useful for seeing what the vehicle is doing overall dynamically. Also, the roll sensor means you can correct your lateral acceleration readings for the skew due to roll angle to determine the true values. These IMUs are the type of thing that MotoGP and Superbike teams have been using to "smarten" their traction control/power tailoring algorithms to account for lean angle and slides. They've just made it into bikes you can buy off the showroom floor this year and last, so the technology is getting better and cheaper.
Originally Posted by zenit View Post
Yes, please push @phate; that way

He may not remember it, but I tried to push him towards an IMU/microcontroller setup a while back.

I've played with standalone gyro's and accel's a few years back and the price point, accessibility/knowledgebase, and technological advances with IMUs available to consumers today have come a long way.

That and integration/syncing with ECU data stream...

https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/160

I would love to go that way. The ideal system is one that consolidates everything into a single data set. It would have to be able to log from the OBD, along with accepting multiple (a lot!) of auxiliary sensors. Right now, I think it's more work than I want to deal with.



__________________________________________________ _______________________



Johanna codrove the 6 with me this past weekend. We intended to do both days, but the weather turned pretty bad on Saturday, so we didn't get to run. Sunday was a great day, though.

We did a split heat format where it was run/work then another run/work session. At the end of the first session, Johanna was beating me by .003s, and we were leading the class by a pretty good margin. Second session rolls around and I pick up a little bit of time, but then Johanna threw down a FLYER of a run going faster by almost 1.5s.

Then we ran out of gas sitting in grid...so we pulled out of line and hoped we had done enough. And we had!

Johanna took the class, and I took second. This was her first time beating me and winning the class. But the best part...that run landed her as the fastest car of the day.

This is her fastest run (41.424):



And my fastest run (42.108):




__________________________________________________ _______________________



So the event got finished way early and we had some time for "fun runs". Any registered driver can drive their car or any other registered driver's car if they have permission to do so (not counted as competition runs, obviously). So, I asked one of the guys I've been running with since I started if he wanted to take the 6 out on a run or two. This guy has been fast in pretty much anything he drives since I've known him, and he trophied at nationals last year. He also happens to be running in our class this year codriving a Camaro.

First run out was a pretty quick 41.8xx. Second run was a BLAZING fast 40.285, from a guy that I'm pretty sure hasn't ever ridden in this car.


He seemed to think the car was very capable of running faster than that. It just tells me that we have a lot more to do to drive the car more effectively.



__________________________________________________ _______________________



I've been playing with the accelerometer data a little bit in order to catch a glimpse of why our times were all different. It looks to me like it's not so much a matter of getting to peak grip, but rather getting pretty close more often. Here's each of our fastest runs average acceleration plotted on one radar chart:



^Bigger is better in this one. You can see that even though I had higher averages close to the cardinal directions, I had the slowest time. So the average isn't telling the whole story.

[Sidebar - if I compare the shape of my average from this event to the last event, it looks like I'm trail braking more often as those sections are more rounded rather than showing a big dip.]



If we look at the standard deviation within those ranges, it gives us a better idea:



^Smaller is better in this one. Even though I had some of the higher averages in place, I had the highest standard deviation (most inconsistent). For the most part, Johanna and Emanuel are both more consistent than me.

I might go back and take a look at the last event's data in this same way to see if there's a trend.
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 Old 06-18-2015, 08:27 PM   #371

 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
At the end of the first session, Johanna was beating me by .003s, and we were leading the class by a pretty good margin. Second session rolls around and I pick up a little bit of time, but then Johanna threw down a FLYER of a run going faster by almost 1.5s.

Johanna took the class, and I took second. This was her first time beating me and winning the class. But the best part...that run landed her as the fastest car of the day.
I certainly wouldn't have been able to get my FTD if the car wasn't prepped as well as it is. I'm passing the FTD on to the car rather than myself! It mostly just does exactly what you tell it to- no fuss (unless you run it out of fuel...). There is a small tendency to oversteer (which took down a cone in my first 41 second run), but it's super manageable, and preferable to understeer, of course! I don't think either of us were surprised to find out that it is capable of even more, either. I recognize that there's always room for improvement and know that personally, I still have a lot of learning to do.

I WAS surprised, however, to finally beat Clint. And I was WAY MORE surprised to take FTD. Still am.
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 Old 06-19-2015, 07:56 AM   #372
 
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Originally Posted by MS3johanna View Post
I certainly wouldn't have been able to get my FTD if the car wasn't prepped as well as it is. I'm passing the FTD on to the car rather than myself! It mostly just does exactly what you tell it to- no fuss (unless you run it out of fuel...). There is a small tendency to oversteer (which took down a cone in my first 41 second run), but it's super manageable, and preferable to understeer, of course! I don't think either of us were surprised to find out that it is capable of even more, either. I recognize that there's always room for improvement and know that personally, I still have a lot of learning to do.

I WAS surprised, however, to finally beat Clint. And I was WAY MORE surprised to take FTD. Still am.
Congrats!!! Quite an accomplishment! This your second season?
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 Old 06-19-2015, 09:56 AM   #373

 
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Originally Posted by ItsNox View Post
Congrats!!! Quite an accomplishment! This your second season?
Thanks!

And no. 4th season, I think. I've been autocrossing since before I met Clint
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 Old 06-19-2015, 10:15 AM   #374
 
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Damn racer girl... The pretty bad ass I've never met a girl Tht can drive well at all or even knows Wat am apex Is lol
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 Old 06-19-2015, 10:26 AM   #375
 
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Johanna, that was obviously an excellent run, and I could see how calm you were on that "throwaway" 180 ... not easy to do.
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 Old 07-15-2015, 06:30 AM   #376
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I've had a very minor clunk in the front end for a short while, now. I thought it was just the rod ended sway bar links doing their thing, so I wasn't too worried about it. Last week it got a little worse so I thought I better check it out. Turns out the steering gear (32-119E in the diagram) has some radial play.



Luckily, I've never heard of a steering rack going bad in these cars, so they're pretty cheap second hand. I nabbed a replacement with only 25k miles for <$100 including next day shipping and taxes. It actually came from the same car I got a diff and spare driveshaft from last year.

I'm planning to replace those 3 rubber bushings with some Delrin to stiffen things up a bit more. Would be an easy way to effect some bump steer correction.





Here's a little teaser pic. I'm excited

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 Old 07-15-2015, 08:28 AM   #377
 
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I'm excited too ! Nice start!

The "manual' steering rack on my GT6 was held down and laterally by two large rubber bushings at the ends of the housing, which I replaced with parts I made from moisture conditioned nylon, when dinosaurs roamed the earth.


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 Old 07-21-2015, 06:47 PM   #378
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I received the new rack last week. First things first, I pressed the old bushings out:



^The rubber on these is really, really soft. Hopefully good things come from this project. Even if it's ajust little more steering feel, it's worth it. This wasn't a difficult or time consuming project.

I wanted to reuse the steel centers to make things a little easier. It's bonded rubber, so the typical solution is to burn the rubber off. That's nasty, so I just stuck them in the lathe and cleaned them up a bit:



I got a some Delrin rod and spent a couple hours making these:



They fit great!





I'm planning to start taking things apart starting Friday afternoon, then finishing Saturday.
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 Old 07-21-2015, 06:52 PM   #379
 
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Wonder how the pig would feel with the steering rack depowered a la Flyin' Miata style....
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 Old 07-21-2015, 07:12 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Wonder how the pig would feel with the steering rack depowered a la Flyin' Miata style....
Dunno. I'm planning on taking the rack apart to see if my issue is fixable. I'll take a bunch of pics to get an idea of what it would take to do the full de-power. Not something I'll be doing, though, as rules don't allow it.
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 Old 07-21-2015, 07:29 PM   #381
 
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Nice work, as usual. That made a big difference on the manual R&P on the old Triumph, as did the smaller steering wheel.

Does a depowered rack make it easier to turn vs no power (belt removed)? I suspect a yes answer, based on removal of pressure drops.


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 Old 07-21-2015, 07:38 PM   #382
 
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I should be relatively hard to turn when you still have all the seals inside the rack, but once you properly depower the rack, it should not be that bad.
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 Old 07-22-2015, 07:46 AM   #383
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I think it would be totally horrible to depower the rack on the 6.
Drove a MKI MR2 for many years which didn't have PS as standard. That was a 2600 lbs car and although the steering feedback was great, it wasn't like other cars with PS felt num in comparisson. The MS3 feels just as sharp as the MR2. The MS3 steering feedback and tightness is also much better than on the 6. I would focus on trying to figure out how to modify the 6 to emulate the 3.
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 Old 07-24-2015, 09:14 AM   #384
 
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Which type of Delrin did you select? Delrin versions and description (very powerful property database)

Note: I worked as an Mech Engineer at the DuPont Parkersburg plant, where they turned a monomer gas into a pure white product that looked chewing tobacco, using a 4' dia x 8' long reactor. That raw product was processed into a final powder form, shipped to molders that use it to make Teflon rods, bars, bushings, etc. I also helped at the Delrin plant at the same site.




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 Old 07-27-2015, 01:42 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Which type of Delrin did you select? Delrin versions and description (very powerful property database)

Note: I worked as an Mech Engineer at the DuPont Parkersburg plant, where they turned a monomer gas into a pure white product that looked chewing tobacco, using a 4' dia x 8' long reactor. That raw product was processed into a final powder form, shipped to molders that use it to make Teflon rods, bars, bushings, etc. I also helped at the Delrin plant at the same site.
I ordered through McMaster, and they don't list the exact grade of Delrin. It's just generic Delrin acetal resin rod:






New rack is in. Car is getting aligned and needs picked up. I only drove it a mile or two and the clunking I felt before is gone. I can't really tell much about steering feel because the alignment was no doubt off and I had the all seasons on. We have a little bit of a lull in the autocross season right now, so it'll be a few weeks until we have the other tires on.

I did go ahead and swap out the last rubber bushings in the front end for poly. I've had them sitting around for 6 months and figured I should give them a try:

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 Old 07-29-2015, 03:30 PM   #386
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Rear sway bar project is fully underway. Everything is out for machining. The first setup will pick up where the Whiteline bar leaves off, and should have an adjustment range that nearly triples that rate.

I first want to find the point where the car shifts to steady state cornering oversteer. Once I find that, I can bring in a bigger front bar and shoot for that same roll bias % (or whatever % was fastest) with either a stiffer arm setting or going to a larger rear bar. The arms and bar will be splined, so it's an easy switch




A huge thanks to @zenit; for helping with this project. I wasn't confident in all of my measurements since I was trying to do these under the car with things in the way. He offered to 3D print some test pieces for me, so I took him up on that (twice).

The first time was to check the side piece clearance.



They just needed a couple minor tweaks, and I asked to have another set printed, this time with a bottom to help locate the bar. You can see them hanging down in the pic I posted previously.



Here's what was really going:



From that, I found differential clearance and arm dimension limitations. This is a 1.25" OD bar I used for this mock up:



The actual bar will tuck in even more closely than this one, and still gives me room to grow.

The bar is going to take the longest due to heat treatment. I'm told it might take up to 4 weeks.
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 Old 07-29-2015, 04:51 PM   #387
 
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That's a lot of printing! I recall in the 90's when it was called
"stereo lithography" cool tool.

You noted the high motion ratio, much more efficient than the stock configuration. Also the rate softening you found during testing due to the bushing flex (bar moves in rigid body mode) will be much less than with the oem rsb. I had estimated that
the softened bench rate = Calc'd Rate x (span between link holes)/(span between bushings)
That ratio was about .5 for the oem, and this one is more like 1.0, meaning very little softening.

With a longer 12" effective lever arm, the endlink will tend to stay more vertical. With the plastic parts, it looks like you may intend to adjust the bushing position based on which link hole you use? Worked well for me.



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 Old 07-29-2015, 06:32 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
That's a lot of printing! I recall in the 90's when it was called
"stereo lithography" cool tool.

You noted the high motion ratio, much more efficient than the stock configuration. Also the rate softening you found during testing due to the bushing flex (bar moves in rigid body mode) will be much less than with the oem rsb. I had estimated that
the softened bench rate = Calc'd Rate x (span between link holes)/(span between bushings)
That ratio was about .5 for the oem, and this one is more like 1.0, meaning very little softening.

With a longer 12" effective lever arm, the endlink will tend to stay more vertical. With the plastic parts, it looks like you may intend to adjust the bushing position based on which link hole you use? Worked well for me.

.
The printed pieces are pretty cool. All of the dimensions were within a few thousandths of the drawings, which made everything else easy.

For the new bar's rate, I am counting on almost no bushing deflection with Delrin and considered that in my rate comparisons/bar dimensions. I'll bench test everything once I have it in hand.

No change in bar position with the brackets I'm having machined. I had the oblong hole in the bottom piece to more precisely locate the bar relative to the diff. I'm positioning the bar as high as I can while still centered on the toe boxes so I lose as little ground clearance as possible and so it doesn't introduce a[nother] torque on the toe boxes.
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 Old 07-30-2015, 11:14 AM   #389
 
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This is an excellent design, as is. But given all the work you put into it, I just wanted to float a RSB concept that I had used with success on my Tracked Rx7.

Not sure how many holes the lever arm will have. For my 3rd Gen Rx7, the Eibach/RB rear bar had 2 holes, and I simply modified the slotted bracket so it had a bias in positioning the sway bar when installed. In my case I just used socket head cap screws, and used a deburr tool against the "U" part of the metal bracket for the SHCS's head to embed into the side a bit, to create a high offset position. I'd install the bracket biased toward the endling for the stiff setting, and away from the endlink for the soft position, both cases keeping the end link vertical.

In my case, the 2 holes represented longer and shorter lengths, compared to oem. The short ~7" oem lever arm would see some big angle changes with stroke, and that combined with short oem endlinks created some skew angles for those endlinks.

Your case has less issues like these, due to longer a-arms to start, and what looks like longer endlinks. Also, with less body roll with a stiffer bar set, you will have less twist in both bars when cornering. But, if fabrication is not too far along, you could make the bushing holder reversible with a positional bias, depending on the final design vs the testing bracket shown.



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 Old 08-07-2015, 06:37 PM   #390
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Things are moving more quickly than expected. Brackets are finished and the bar/arms are supposed to ship Monday. Too bad I'm in Colorado all next week! I might be able to do a test fit the week after, but I am planning to rate test the bar before leaving it on. Just want to make sure my calcs are close so there aren't any surprises for the initial setup.
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 Old 08-20-2015, 09:47 AM   #391
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I don't have the brackets in hand yet. I'll have them this weekend and get pics up. I'll rate test the bar next week and then do a test install the weekend after if all goes well.
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 Old 08-22-2015, 10:35 PM   #392
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Le brackets:





Bench test next week if I get the bushings, then test fit the weekend after. Still have to get rod ends for the end links, but it all looks pretty close just holding things up.
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 Old 08-23-2015, 07:50 AM   #393
 
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... and it's your Design! The machine work looks excellent. Do you have a machine shop that doesn't charge you commercial rates? I was lucky to have a connection with one that also did company work for me.

Are the Delrin bushings thin/flexible enough to expand over the enlarged, splined ends, with just the usual single split?

Finally, given factory tolerances on the mounting locations, you likely intend to check that the two mounts provide co-axial holes for the bushings, which are quite rigid.

Good luck Clint, hope it all works as designed.


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 Old 08-25-2015, 02:38 AM   #394
 
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That is some sturdy brackets
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 Old 08-25-2015, 12:27 PM   #395
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I've been sort of absent due to Epic Midwest Meet. Had a great time and got some good seat time in. We went karting on Saturday, then autocross on Sunday, and I was talked into doing a track day at Autobahn Country Club on Monday by @Gladcow;. [Huge thanks, again, Mike.] I had a blast, the car did great, and we didn't break much!

A couple things while they're still fresh:

Re: Steering rack and delrin bushings - these things made a really incredible difference in steering feel and feedback. As soon as the autocross tires went back on I could feel the difference. Much more "communicative" as the car lost front end traction or went over small bumps. Definitely easier to get a feel for what the car was doing. I did drive this setup on regular roads for a few miles and can tell you that some bumps/expansion joints are a little disconcerting since you can actually feel them through the steering wheel. Definitely worth the few bucks and little bit of time it took to make them.



Re: LCA Inner Poly bushings - Another good improvement. I didn't need to run as much negative camber as I had previously. I pulled out a half degree or so and picked up grip. I need to dial this in, further, but so far they seem worthwhile. Hopefully they hold up.



From Sunday's autocross. This wasn't my fastest run, for sure, but it was plenty fun. @alittlefox; was at her first autocross and jumped in for a ride along:


It wasn't a big event and the lot was covered in fine gravel. The surface degraded throughout the day as the gravel was spread further into a braking zone which made things really interesting, but everyone made it through without incident.
@xfeejayx; codrove with me and attempted to break the car in all sorts of ways! [He unknowingly left the fans running because I didn't tell him about the switch, which drained the battery and caused problems for a few runs after.] He might have a few thoughts on the car.


Monday was a great learning experience. It was my first time on a road course. I spent most of the day learning the driving line in a lead follow configuration with an instructor. There weren't enough instructors to sit in car with everyone, so we made do. Johanna grabbed a couple videos from some stands where I was following an instructor in his Porsche:



That's @Big Mike; behind me in his white speed6. Slight difference in body roll with his stock springs and bars.


I definitely enjoyed the experience and the amount of seat time (five 30 minute sessions), but I wouldn't trade it for autocross. I will do it again, though. I have a lot of video from it that I haven't gone through yet. I'll edit it and get some of it up soon.


I have accelerometer data from both Sunday and Monday, so I need to go through it. I'm really interested to see the data from Autobahn.




Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
... and it's your Design! The machine work looks excellent. Do you have a machine shop that doesn't charge you commercial rates? I was lucky to have a connection with one that also did company work for me.

Are the Delrin bushings thin/flexible enough to expand over the enlarged, splined ends, with just the usual single split?

Finally, given factory tolerances on the mounting locations, you likely intend to check that the two mounts provide co-axial holes for the bushings, which are quite rigid.

Good luck Clint, hope it all works as designed.

I do have some connections for machine work, so it was totally reasonable. The delrin bushings shouldn't have any problem accepting the splined ends, they're broached with the same diameter as the bushing surface.

These mounts should be very, very close to coaxial. The toe boxes are angle away from each other slightly, and I got the best measurements I could and accounted for it by angling the through hole in the bracket.
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 Old 08-25-2015, 01:26 PM   #396
 
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I had forgotten the bushings were on the large diameter ... doh! The Delrin is not a forgiving bushing material regarding alignment, and if needed, I'm sure you could do a little slotting and/or shimming.

For me, the real fun on the road course starts once you are close to or solo qualified, and you "pick up" races during each session, closing the gap on the car in front, or trying to stay ahead of one behind you. I was always somewhat intimidated by the array of cars lined up at pit-out, but usually had no issues, except for those early Vipers at the time.

It looks like you have put together the ultimate street/track MS6 for your SCCA class, fully documented!


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 Old 08-25-2015, 01:55 PM   #397
 
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
closing the gap on the car in front, or trying to stay ahead of one behind you
This. The latter is more nerve wracking than the former. It is easy to dish out the heat, but can you take it? You can see the errors the driver in front of you starts making as you inch closer and closer.....
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 Old 08-25-2015, 02:08 PM   #398

 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
@xfeejayx; codrove with me and attempted to break the car in all sorts of ways! [He unknowingly left the fans running because I didn't tell him about the switch, which drained the battery and caused problems for a few runs after.] He might have a few thoughts on the car.
Car is slow.


In all seriousness, that rear end is happy, and it makes me happy. A little lift off, or jab on the overly sensitive brakes, and your rear end is moving. I see what you mean by 'it could use a little more' for an autocross course. I think I'd leave it where it is for my tastes. However, I was struggling to find the fast line through the course Sunday, so might just be me.

I didn't realize how snappy that steering is until I got back in my car. You can definitely feel what the car is doing, and know what you have for grip despite the tires being quiet. I never felt any bind in it.

The car is just a little loose (on a low traction track), but it is incredibly manageable with the feedback. It felt like a rallycross with all the dirt out there, and I was totally confident when dragging out a few prolonged drifts, straight into/through the next gate.

I think last time I drove it was with 600# rear springs. For AX, even on a loose track, this was an improvement.

Your motor/turbo setup/tune is an inspiration that all motors should aspire to.
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 Old 08-25-2015, 05:27 PM   #399
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
...
It wasn't a big event and the lot was covered in fine gravel. The surface degraded throughout the day as the gravel was spread further into a braking zone which made things really interesting, but everyone made it through without incident.
...


Originally Posted by xfeejayx View Post
...
In all seriousness, that rear end is happy, and it makes me happy. A little lift off, or jab on the overly sensitive brakes, and your rear end is moving. I see what you mean by 'it could use a little more' for an autocross course. I think I'd leave it where it is for my tastes. However, I was struggling to find the fast line through the course Sunday, so might just be me.

...

The car is just a little loose (on a low traction track), but it is incredibly manageable with the feedback. It felt like a rallycross with all the dirt out there, and I was totally confident when dragging out a few prolonged drifts, straight into/through the next gate.

...
I concur about the surface on the Sunday. Very gravelly and slippery.

For perspective, I was running my MS3 with front bar disconnected, stock rear bar, zero rear toe, stock camber arms, and was getting the car very loose on a number of turns on almost all of my runs. Normally my car is much more push oriented, and takes a lift, trail brake, combined with a ridiculous amount of rear toe to get the rear around.

From a corner working perspective, @xfeejayx; driving @phate;'s car was very well behaved compared to most of the cars out there.

IMO: The surface seems dictates the front/rear bias needed, at least on the AX course.

Anyways still excited about the rear bar. I'll get to work in the basement now.
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 Old 08-25-2015, 05:30 PM   #400
 
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What tires were you guys running?
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2006 Mazdaspeed6
EFR 7163|FMIC|South Bend|FCM coilovers|Powerbrake BBK|RPF1 18x10.5|Nitto NT01
stripped|caged|freektuned

2017 Subaru BRZ
MCS coilovers|Brembo BBK|6UL 17x9|Nitto NT01|ACE 350|Delicious tuned

2000 E39 M5

2001 MR2 2ZZ
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LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f12/mazdaspeed-6-suspension-data-diy-bilstein-coilovers-161806/
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Shocks for a daily driven Mazdaspeed 6 This thread Refback 12-05-2015 09:07 PM
Whats New/General Speed 6 Discussion - Page 296 This thread Refback 11-29-2015 05:42 PM
fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 7 This thread Refback 08-23-2015 04:39 AM
fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 6 This thread Refback 04-25-2015 01:24 PM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 56 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 02-21-2015 12:36 PM
BC coilovers VS. H&R coilovers - Page 15 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 08-26-2014 07:50 AM
Whats New/General Speed 6 Discussion - Page 297 This thread Refback 07-28-2014 08:03 PM
racing aspirations » Suspension Geometry Calculator This thread Refback 06-21-2014 02:57 AM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 50 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum Post #48 Pingback 03-14-2014 12:36 PM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 46 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 01-20-2014 11:02 AM

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