register gallery
 

Go Back   Mazdaspeed Forums >
MAZDASPEED SECTION
>
Mazdaspeed 3/6 MZR Gen1 Forums (2006-2009)
> MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes

MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


Welcome to Mazdaspeed Forums .

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

*When you join MSF as a registered user, there will be No Ads.

*Registered Members get access to the Off Topic Area of the Forum

*Registered Members have an opportunity to upgrade their accounts to VIP, which brings a host of goddies for supporting MSF such as Raffles, Additional Forum Access, More PM Storage, The ability to upload more Images and many other enhancements.

*Registered members also get access to the live chat box!
Like Tree307Likes
Reply
 
Bookmark and Share LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 Old 09-28-2015, 10:47 AM   #441
 
KevinK2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Delaware
Posts: 906   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
KevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 228
Thanked 739 Times in 388 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 79 Times in 52 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by phate View Post
I would get corner weights first (at race weight) before deciding on rates. I've gone from 600's, to 700's, to 800's in the rear and the 800's can be a little unruly around town. If you plan to DD the car, maybe consider slightly lower rates. Performance wise, I definitely prefer the stiffer spring in the rear, and I think overall the car needs a lot more rear bias - hopefully through a stiffer rear ARB that doesn't exist yet, lol. If I want more spring than what I have now, it will likely require another revalve of the shocks.
....
Now it sounds like your custom rear bar is performing as you designed it to, with the softer 700 lb rear springs vs the 800's before. I bet it helps a bit with the off track driving comfort.

This change, and the new great videos of the suspension (and the one on pg 9 of the front right wheel) reminded me of this quote above. While it's true for driving and both sides hitting a speed bump type event, if you have a "bump" on just one side, the bar "bench rate" adjusted for motion ratio is added in to the wheel rate from the spring, driving straight or in a corner. The tire on the opposite side is unloaded the same amount.

The point is even with lower 700 lb springs, if you add more wheel rate with stiffer bar, than before with 800 lb springs, with more net wheel rate, and that too could push you into needing a shock adjustment, as you were theorizing.


.
__________________
From Delaware
Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident

Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo

Last edited by KevinK2; 09-28-2015 at 01:51 PM.
KevinK2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to KevinK2 For This Useful Post:
Mauro_Penguin (09-29-2015), phate (09-28-2015)
 Old 09-28-2015, 06:56 PM   #442
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

After a second day, and with much better tires, just a couple more thoughts.

We left the bar on the softest setting to see if it was tire or bar causing the major oversteer twitchiness. Turns out tires were the issue more than anything. Having them on track at Autobahn really took it out of them.

The car was mostly back to its old self on Sunday. It did retain some of the lift-off oversteer eagerness it exhibited Saturday, but it was much more manageable. Steady state cornering in the big back sweeper was about the same as before, with some under steer. @zenit; and I were talking about this briefly after autocross and we both think it is more likely to be caused by the change in bushing material rather than the bar and spring change. With the Delrin bushing, the full spring rate of the bar is apparent immediately as the car begins to roll, rather than having to compress the poly bushing with the Whiteline bar. So, as the car is transitioning the rear is much stiffer earlier in roll and the front catches up to it as the front sway bar bushings compress. We may have to tailor this behavior with a change of bushing material up front (if I don't get a bigger bar, first).




I had the car in the garage today for some post-autocross inspection. It developed a clunk in both the front and back end that I could hear over bumps. Both are simple fixes. The end links up front need new rod ends. I ordered another set of them when I ordered the rod ends for the rear, I just didn't swap them out. The rear clunk ended up being a loose extension bolt, which allowed it to articulate very slightly. I'll just have to make sure I tighten it down a bit more next time.

I pulled the arms and extensions off while I was under there so I could paint them. I didn't have time on Friday since we left for the weekend that afternoon. I wanted to let the paint fully cure before reinstalling them, so I just went ahead and pulled the bar off of the car for now. I pulled the lower bracket bolts and slightly loosened the two upper bolts and it slid right out. The side brackets are still in place. I zip tied the end links to the LCA, for now. Total time to remove the bar and arms: <10 minutes, it was glorious.

I won't be getting another set of tires for this season. Just as I was ready to order another set, a friend of mine asked if I was interested in a set of corner scales. It didn't take much convincing for me to get scales instead of tires. Used scales are very hard to find and I got a heck of a deal on them.





Guess it's time to start thinking more about next season I don't think there's any big projects for this winter, just some minor weight reduction and probably a little bit of maintenance. I'm currently on the hunt for a second vehicle that will replace the 6 as my daily.





Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
First, congratulations on some great engineering work, similar to a Tri-Point Engineering product. Very timely since WL's adjustable 24mm bar (23mm oem) is out of production, as is Cork Sports' 25mm, leaving only the $365 24mm non-adjustable Autoxe bar.

I finally plugged in your input numbers for your program, from post #203 , into my old Puhn based calculator, with the Whiteline bar at stiff for starts:


3469 lbs Total Wt
850F/800R springs
24mm OEM front bar
WL rear bar , stiff @ 485 lb/in
MR rear spring = .573
----------------------
Front Total WT Bias = 58.6%
Front Total WT Transfer Bias = 60.8%
Steady State => Slight Understeer
Front Sprung Wt Bias = 59.4%
16280 Fr Roll Rate, in-lbs/in @ Wheel
7984 Rr Roll Rate, in-lbs/in @ Wheel
Rear end link @ 1G = ~240 lbs

How does this compare? I used your sprung wt central CG location and lever arm to the roll axis, as those were inputs to my program for comparing other variables (to be corrected). I could run your current set-up, if that is more convenient.

.
In my current spreadsheet, for that setup (850F/800R springs, Stock front bar/bushings, WL rear bar/Stiff @ 477 lb/in), I get 64.86% front bias. I'll have to go back to my PDF's posted earlier and see if I changed any assumptions up top.



Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
The point is even with lower 700 lb springs, if you add more wheel rate with stiffer bar, than before with 800 lb springs, with more net wheel rate, and that too could push you into needing a shock adjustment, as you were theorizing.
.
That is definitely a concern. The 800's just rode poorly, but performed great at autocross. Hopefully I can get one more season out of them before needing a rebuild or revalve.
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to phate For This Useful Post:
Code Monkey (09-28-2015), Funkster777 (09-29-2015), Mauro_Penguin (09-29-2015), Nliiitend1 (09-29-2015), TiGraySpeed6 (09-29-2015), xfeejayx (09-28-2015), zenit (09-28-2015)
 Old 09-28-2015, 08:59 PM   #443

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I know an ms6 this bar can bolt on to, with tires left for the season!

Although, the roll might end up snapping this bar.
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (09-29-2015), Mauro_Penguin (09-29-2015), Nliiitend1 (09-29-2015), phate (09-28-2015), zenit (09-29-2015)
 Old 09-29-2015, 01:49 AM   #444
 
MSP611's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: layton, UT
Posts: 2,291   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
MSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 122
Thanked 1,489 Times in 585 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 29 Times in 20 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

sounds like some good info... man scales are hard to come buy for a god price.. wat kinda scales did u get? long acre?
__________________
In progress:
Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
MSP611 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MSP611 For This Useful Post:
phate (09-29-2015)
 Old 09-29-2015, 07:40 AM   #445
 
KevinK2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Delaware
Posts: 906   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
KevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 228
Thanked 739 Times in 388 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 79 Times in 52 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by phate View Post
..... @zenit; and I were talking about this briefly after autocross and we both think it is more likely to be caused by the change in bushing material rather than the bar and spring change. With the Delrin bushing, the full spring rate of the bar is apparent immediately as the car begins to roll, rather than having to compress the poly bushing with the Whiteline bar. So, as the car is transitioning the rear is much stiffer earlier in roll and the front catches up to it as the front sway bar bushings compress. We may have to tailor this behavior with a change of bushing material up front (if I don't get a bigger bar, first).
I have been a believer in tuning sway bars with bushings for a long time. When I increased the rear track width on my GT6 by 2", and dropped the rear CG, I brought oem rubber front bar bushings (vs the installed aluminum ones) to the track in case understeer was an issue. It was, and it took the soft bushings and spacer washers under the front brackets to hold the bushings loosely, to get back to neutral but with lots of roll. On my M6, I recently upgraded to a Steeda rear bar to eliminate most of the understeer. It was all good, except with the poly bushings in the rear, and oem up front, I noticed there was slower "turn-in" due to the front bar engagement lagging the rear bar by a fraction of a sec. I ordered rubber bushings to balance transitions, but have not installed yet. I had always thought the rubber oem bushings were to allows some low rate motion for small displacements on the road, for a smooth ride and low NHV.

It was only when you were first testing bar stiffness, when I asked if there was a sign of low rate when the load was first applied, with poly and rubber bushings, and you said there was no initial softer rate, much to my surprise.

Bar Testing Results

Originally Posted by KevinK2
3) for now, could you report on the lb/in rate for just the 1st load increment, and compare it to the total load rate (no load vs full load deflections)? The 1st incement could be very dependent of the initial give in the bushings.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally Posted by Phate
In my current spreadsheet, for that setup (850F/800R springs, Stock front bar/bushings, WL rear bar/Stiff @ 477 lb/in), I get 64.86% front bias. I'll have to go back to my PDF's posted earlier and see if I changed any assumptions up top.
I just found one issue, I was using one measured bar rate, and the other a calculated bar rate. If you want, we can take this off line, and I'll provide my email address in a message. We can then post the resolution.

Originally Posted by Phate
Guess it's time to start thinking more about next season I don't think there's any big projects for this winter, just some minor weight reduction and probably a little bit of maintenance. I'm currently on the hunt for a second vehicle that will replace the 6 as my daily.
Now that you have the adjustable rear bar, I think it opens the door to adding a stiffer front bar (24mm oem) as you mentioned earlier, for less lean as in Canyon Racer's Mazda6. With almost triple the current rear bar stiffness available (may require a revision to the endlink attachment to the frame), you could consider the Steeda 26, or the RB 28.5. Based on a quick calc, your existing rear bar dia, at full stiff, is good for the 26mm front bar. Of course you loose some of the suspension independence with stiffer bars, but that's more of an on the road ride quality issue, imho.



.
__________________
From Delaware
Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident

Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo

Last edited by KevinK2; 09-29-2015 at 11:09 AM. Reason: updated Mazda6 bar bushing effect
KevinK2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to KevinK2 For This Useful Post:
Mauro_Penguin (09-29-2015), phate (09-29-2015)
 Old 09-29-2015, 09:09 AM   #446
 
Funkster777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,254   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
Funkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the worldFunkster777 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 4,370
Thanked 890 Times in 451 Posts
Groans: 3
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Following this (and reading the last week over the last few minutes), I so want this set up for my car. Start selling them soon. Please!
__________________
Funkster777
2010 Black Cherry Metallic Mazda 6 DD (well as needed)

2006 Black Mica Mazdaspeed6 Sport

Originally fixed by IL NATOR. Rear Diff, TC, & PS cooler replaced due to MI NATOR. Rebuilding a MS6 one part at a time.

Performance: GTX3076r~Molnar rods~Wiseco pistons~Grimm EBCS~3-bar MAP~Autotech Internals~HTP 3.5" intake~GFB BPV~TR8 intercooler w/2.5" piping~Cobb AP v3~Freak Tune in progress (need to quit breaking things)~eBay catless DP~CS CBE~JBR RMM~ACT HD 6 puck sprung w/prolite~JBR SSP & weight~TWM Stage 2 SS w/BB & boot~Maisonvi Shift Knob~AE Tower Strut Bar~Rear Interior Brace~CP-e Rear Diff mount~Replacement Rear Diff & TC, MD PS cooler, CS Front & Rear Sway Bar~H&R Springs~Bilstein HD shocks~SS brake lines~FI Grounding Kit~EBC Yellows~Potenza RE970AS
Exterior: 6000k HIDs low beams~8000k HIDs fog lights~Luminics Ultra White Bulb high beams~HD lip~Speedline Emblemless Grill~Blacked out rear emblems~Smoked Rear & Side Markers with LEDs~15% back & windshield top tint~35% front~Sharkfin Antenna~Tower II LEDs for parking lights~CAR-LED tails
Interior: UV & purple LEDs~Blackvue DR400G-HD~Escort Redline up high w/mute~NeoPro Link iPod Connection~ProSport Premium Boost Gauge w/Vent Dual gauge pod
Waiting to Install/ Buy: SS clutch, oil pressure gauge, CP-e EWG setup/ Wheels (likely)?, Summer tires?, EVO Brembos?, Meth setup-5/6th port?


[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Funkster777 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Funkster777 For This Useful Post:
phate (09-29-2015)
 Old 09-29-2015, 11:40 AM   #447
 
KevinK2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Delaware
Posts: 906   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
KevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 228
Thanked 739 Times in 388 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 79 Times in 52 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

As I said before, afaik, there is only one option for new rear bar upgrades for the MS6. WL's adjustable 24mm bar (23mm oem) is out of production, as is Cork Sports' 25mm, leaving only the $365 24mm non-adjustable Autoxe bar. And to make it usefull in most cases, a stiffer hole position would be need to be machined in the lever arms, for more $$. Phate may well have a market for a group buy, if he chooses, once all the refinements are made.
__________________
From Delaware
Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident

Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo

Last edited by KevinK2; 09-29-2015 at 12:47 PM.
KevinK2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to KevinK2 For This Useful Post:
phate (09-29-2015)
 Old 09-29-2015, 11:51 AM   #448

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

I didn't realize CS made a front/rear bar combo. Would be all over that.
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 09-29-2015, 12:50 PM   #449
 
KevinK2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Delaware
Posts: 906   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
KevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 228
Thanked 739 Times in 388 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 79 Times in 52 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

CS said for every rear bar they made, they had to throw one away due to the tight spec's. So they discontinued rear bar production. At this time Corksport offers no sway bars for the Speed6.


.
__________________
From Delaware
Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident

Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo

Last edited by KevinK2; 09-30-2015 at 06:57 AM. Reason: clarity
KevinK2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to KevinK2 For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (09-30-2015), Mauro_Penguin (09-29-2015), phate (09-29-2015), xfeejayx (09-29-2015)
 Old 09-29-2015, 06:50 PM   #450

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

There's a joke about CS quality here somewhere.

Still want at least the front bar.
Mauro_Penguin likes this.
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (09-30-2015), Mauro_Penguin (09-29-2015)
 Old 09-29-2015, 08:06 PM   #451
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

CS bar was 28.5mm OD, and I'm guessing it was solid. RacingBeat still offers the same thing.


With stock springs, you could get away with one of the stiffer front bars with my same rear bar. Without actual rate testing to know how much the bushings soften the rate, we can only estimate the front stiffness.

If you were to run my current rear bar with stock springs, I think the Steeda (26mm) offers a good adjustment range that straddles the roll bias (of my car) that you drove in Chicago (850F/800R, stock front bar, WL on stiff). It would give you a pretty wide range to play in, with more adjustment to increase rear roll stiffness from where mine was at...probably a good thing since the 6 front end in stock form relies pretty heavily on bump stops, which will increase the front stiffness a bit (not included in my calcs, which is why I mention it).

That combo would net you ~85% of that overall stiffness my car had, which is still nearing 2x the stock roll stiffness




The Steeda offers a nice bump in front stiffness for me, while still allowing a good range of adjustment from just softer rear bias than the current setup, to adding quite a lot of rear stiffness. Overall stiffness could go up as much as ~58% compared to the current setup...that's approaching 4x stock roll stiffness. Increasing the rear to achieve the same roll bias I'm at now would stiffen the car by 17%, overall.

The RB front bar is likely going to be too much front stiffness for the current rear bar. Just for fun, I did plug in the numbers with an even bigger rear bar (to balance roll bias) in my current setup (1" OD) with the RB front bar, assuming no rate loss in the bushings...it's more than twice the roll stiffness I currently have, and nearly 4.4x stock roll stiffness!


[I added a bunch of drop downs in my spreadsheet to select sway bar options for both the front and rear. Makes comparing easy!]
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.

Last edited by phate; 09-29-2015 at 08:24 PM.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to phate For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (09-30-2015), ItsNox (09-30-2015), KevinK2 (09-29-2015), Mauro_Penguin (09-29-2015), Nliiitend1 (09-30-2015), zenit (09-30-2015)
 Old 09-29-2015, 08:27 PM   #452
 
MSP611's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: layton, UT
Posts: 2,291   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
MSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 122
Thanked 1,489 Times in 585 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 29 Times in 20 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

great info. so u think its still a good idea to get a front bar, run stock springs, and get a rear bar and revalve and tht would give u 85%of wat u have? wouldnt a spring change be helpful
__________________
In progress:
Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
MSP611 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MSP611 For This Useful Post:
phate (09-29-2015)
 Old 09-29-2015, 08:53 PM   #453
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
great info. so u think its still a good idea to get a front bar, run stock springs, and get a rear bar and revalve and tht would give u 85%of wat u have? wouldnt a spring change be helpful

I wouldn't want to run just bars. xfeejay and I have talked about the potential to run bars without getting higher rate springs, just to see if it's possible. I'm afraid that if you do run that much bar with stock springs, you'll end up pulling a wheel off of the ground while cornering. Maybe not, and maybe not a huge deal with an LSD in the rear end, but something to consider.

You also need to consider the brake dive and squat under accel with stock springs. With only bars, that won't change one bit. We picked up some serious braking power going to the higher rate springs, most likely because we're controlling camber by limiting brake dive. I think it is very beneficial to run the higher rates for this.

The roll and pitch rate is also affected by springs, and the lower the spring rate, the slower the weight transfer occurs. We are able to do 'things' in much tighter sequence because we aren't waiting for weight transfer to occur. That means we're not wasting time waiting, and not wasting time compensating for that lag. As an example, we can stay on the gas longer before we have to brake because the weight transfer occurs much faster so braking power is more immediately available.

Can it be done? Probably. Is it beneficial to run higher spring rates in conjunction with stiffer bars? Probably.
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to phate For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (09-30-2015), Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), Nliiitend1 (09-30-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 04:42 AM   #454
 
MSP611's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: layton, UT
Posts: 2,291   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
MSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 122
Thanked 1,489 Times in 585 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 29 Times in 20 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by phate View Post
I wouldn't want to run just bars. xfeejay and I have talked about the potential to run bars without getting higher rate springs, just to see if it's possible. I'm afraid that if you do run that much bar with stock springs, you'll end up pulling a wheel off of the ground while cornering. Maybe not, and maybe not a huge deal with an LSD in the rear end, but something to consider.

You also need to consider the brake dive and squat under accel with stock springs. With only bars, that won't change one bit. We picked up some serious braking power going to the higher rate springs, most likely because we're controlling camber by limiting brake dive. I think it is very beneficial to run the higher rates for this.

The roll and pitch rate is also affected by springs, and the lower the spring rate, the slower the weight transfer occurs. We are able to do 'things' in much tighter sequence because we aren't waiting for weight transfer to occur. That means we're not wasting time waiting, and not wasting time compensating for that lag. As an example, we can stay on the gas longer before we have to brake because the weight transfer occurs much faster so braking power is more immediately available.

Can it be done? Probably. Is it beneficial to run higher spring rates in conjunction with stiffer bars? Probably.

man u a smarty pants!! i want to run a very similar setup to u just becuz the info in this thread and all the RD u have done.. it is very impressive and most of it (the math wise) is way over my head but i understand the concepts. so the 850/800 spring setup u had before, how did it ride on the street?
__________________
In progress:
Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
MSP611 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MSP611 For This Useful Post:
phate (09-30-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 07:12 AM   #455
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
man u a smarty pants!! i want to run a very similar setup to u just becuz the info in this thread and all the RD u have done.. it is very impressive and most of it (the math wise) is way over my head but i understand the concepts. so the 850/800 spring setup u had before, how did it ride on the street?
Here

It's going to depend a bit on shock valving, also.
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 09-30-2015, 07:59 AM   #456

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by phate View Post
I wouldn't want to run just bars. xfeejay and I have talked about the potential to run bars without getting higher rate springs, just to see if it's possible. I'm afraid that if you do run that much bar with stock springs, you'll end up pulling a wheel off of the ground while cornering. Maybe not, and maybe not a huge deal with an LSD in the rear end, but something to consider.

You also need to consider the brake dive and squat under accel with stock springs. With only bars, that won't change one bit. We picked up some serious braking power going to the higher rate springs, most likely because we're controlling camber by limiting brake dive. I think it is very beneficial to run the higher rates for this.

The roll and pitch rate is also affected by springs, and the lower the spring rate, the slower the weight transfer occurs. We are able to do 'things' in much tighter sequence because we aren't waiting for weight transfer to occur. That means we're not wasting time waiting, and not wasting time compensating for that lag. As an example, we can stay on the gas longer before we have to brake because the weight transfer occurs much faster so braking power is more immediately available.

Can it be done? Probably. Is it beneficial to run higher spring rates in conjunction with stiffer bars? Probably.
Well, I'm game to find out if you are. I can get that Steeda bar, throw yours on, and we'll see what shenanigans ensue.

Or, I can install the WL rear I have, and still be slow. The steeda front bar is probably a bad idea with the WL rear. I'll probably have to run 45 psi in the rear to get the behavior I want, and then I'm just giving up grip for turn in.
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (09-30-2015), Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), phate (09-30-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 08:30 AM   #457
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by xfeejayx View Post
Well, I'm game to find out if you are. I can get that Steeda bar, throw yours on, and we'll see what shenanigans ensue.

Or, I can install the WL rear I have, and still be slow. The steeda front bar is probably a bad idea with the WL rear. I'll probably have to run 45 psi in the rear to get the behavior I want, and then I'm just giving up grip for turn in.
If we come up this weekend, I'll bring everything. You can probably leave the stock bar in place and run my rear bar without getting the back end impossibly loose everywhere.

If you get the Steeda, you want to let me rate test it before you install it? If it doesn't work out, you might be able to convince me to purchase it from you
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to phate For This Useful Post:
Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 08:34 AM   #458

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by phate View Post
If we come up this weekend, I'll bring everything. You can probably leave the stock bar in place and run my rear bar without getting the back end impossibly loose everywhere.

If you get the Steeda, you want to let me rate test it before you install it? If it doesn't work out, you might be able to convince me to purchase it from you
Deal. I'll order it today. Let me know what you need set up for rate measurement. We can measure here, then throw both in. Or can ship it straight to you if you want?

Find an ax here for when you're coming, so you can get a drive, also.

No need to buy it off me. Worst case, I make a stiffer rear to match
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (09-30-2015), phate (09-30-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 08:48 AM   #459
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by xfeejayx View Post
Deal. I'll order it today. Let me know what you need set up for rate measurement. We can measure here, then throw both in. Or can ship it straight to you if you want?

Find an ax here for when you're coming, so you can get a drive, also.

No need to buy it off me. Worst case, I make a stiffer rear to match
We just need to be able to clamp it to a surface, hang a bunch of weights from one end while holding the other steady, and be able to measure deflection on one side. I use a little over 200 lbs of weights to get some decent deflection. I have everything down here and it takes just a few minutes to set it up, if that's going to be easier.

It's going to be a busy weekend for us, so autocross is probably out of the question this weekend. CIR in Rantoul is the 10th/11th, if Andrew doesn't get things going with his engine. CCSCC in Rantoul is the 17th/18th (and it's grudge matches).
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to phate For This Useful Post:
Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 08:56 AM   #460

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by phate View Post
We just need to be able to clamp it to a surface, hang a bunch of weights from one end while holding the other steady, and be able to measure deflection on one side. I use a little over 200 lbs of weights to get some decent deflection. I have everything down here and it takes just a few minutes to set it up, if that's going to be easier.

It's going to be a busy weekend for us, so autocross is probably out of the question this weekend. CIR in Rantoul is the 10th/11th, if Andrew doesn't get things going with his engine. CCSCC in Rantoul is the 17th/18th (and it's grudge matches).
Not sure how we'll ax/grudge match with the same rsb in both cars?
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
phate (09-30-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 09:00 AM   #461
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by xfeejayx View Post
Not sure how we'll ax/grudge match with the same rsb in both cars?
Mine is done for the season since I corded tires.
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 09-30-2015, 09:16 AM   #462
 
KevinK2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Delaware
Posts: 906   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
KevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 228
Thanked 739 Times in 388 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 79 Times in 52 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by phate View Post
.... In my current spreadsheet, for that setup (850F/800R springs, Stock front bar/bushings, WL rear bar/Stiff @ 477 lb/in), I get 64.86% front bias. I'll have to go back to my PDF's posted earlier and see if I changed any assumptions up top .....
Was that Total WT Bias, or just for the sprung weight?

Since on post # 203, you show the three sheets for that case (input, stiffness calc's, and weight transfer calc's, I'll just compare all that to my SS and find the differences. UPDATE: I see there are some "old" geometry values on the bars, but I will use all the same input numbers, right or wrong, to compare outputs.

Thanks


.
__________________
From Delaware
Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident

Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo

Last edited by KevinK2; 09-30-2015 at 10:20 AM.
KevinK2 is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 09-30-2015, 09:32 AM   #463

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Current plan
Trying to find an AX this weekend to run with stock springs, stock shocks, both stock ARB, plus Phate ARB in place. Maybe @zenit; can co-drive if phate is busy so we have more than one opinion?

Steeda bar headed to Phate. He'll rate test.

Steeda FSB, Phate+stock RSB to run at Rantoul CCSCC on the 17th with all else stock.

Any bets on if this works out?
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), Nliiitend1 (09-30-2015), phate (09-30-2015), zenit (09-30-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 09:36 AM   #464
 
MSP611's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: layton, UT
Posts: 2,291   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
MSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 122
Thanked 1,489 Times in 585 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 29 Times in 20 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

thanks @phate; sry for bein lazy lol
__________________
In progress:
Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
MSP611 is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 09-30-2015, 01:28 PM   #465
 
KevinK2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Delaware
Posts: 906   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
KevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 228
Thanked 739 Times in 388 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 79 Times in 52 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by phate View Post
If we come up this weekend, I'll bring everything. You can probably leave the stock bar in place and run my rear bar without getting the back end impossibly loose everywhere. ...
If running both rear bars is too much, you can just detach an endlink at one end of the oem, or pull the link. But I'd make sure you don't have a frozen connection before going to the track. This will also be a good test of how well Phate's bar mounts on another chassis. Delrin bushings are not very forgiving.

I ran my 93RX7 at big tracks with just a moderate increase in bar sizes, with no big issues, no wheel lift. But my autox car was race springs and modest bar increases, ftw. With just stiff bars, loading the outside wheel in a corner due to uneven pavement, is more connected with unloading the inside wheel.


.
__________________
From Delaware
Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident

Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo
KevinK2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to KevinK2 For This Useful Post:
Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), phate (09-30-2015), xfeejayx (09-30-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 02:41 PM   #466
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
If running both rear bars is too much, you can just detach an endlink at one end of the oem, or pull the link.
I'm not sure you can on the MS6. The arm goes between the LCA and axle without much clearance. I haven't tested it, but I'm afraid that as the bar articulates upward with an endlink detached, the axle will contact the bar on detached end link side. It's something I've wondered about for a long time, just never got around to checking.
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
 Old 09-30-2015, 03:58 PM   #467
 
KevinK2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Delaware
Posts: 906   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
KevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 228
Thanked 739 Times in 388 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 79 Times in 52 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Good point, scratch that idea. Hope it matches the Steeda 26mm. Based on your last bench test of the oem front, it could be 50% less than calculated stiffness. Can you pick endlink forces from your program? Just wondering if 220lbs is enough of a test load ???


.
__________________
From Delaware
Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident

Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo

Last edited by KevinK2; 09-30-2015 at 09:05 PM.
KevinK2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to KevinK2 For This Useful Post:
phate (10-06-2015)
 Old 09-30-2015, 06:27 PM   #468

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Ax found and registered. Spinouts forthcoming!
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
phate (09-30-2015)
 Old 10-01-2015, 09:55 AM   #469
 
MSP611's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: layton, UT
Posts: 2,291   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
MSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 122
Thanked 1,489 Times in 585 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 29 Times in 20 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

how do u know what legnth to set ur endlinks to one the front and rear?
__________________
In progress:
Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
MSP611 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MSP611 For This Useful Post:
phate (10-06-2015)
 Old 10-01-2015, 11:37 AM   #470
 
KevinK2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Delaware
Posts: 906   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
KevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 228
Thanked 739 Times in 388 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 79 Times in 52 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by phate View Post
..... I use a little over 200 lbs of weights to get some decent deflection. I have everything down here and it takes just a few minutes to set it up, if that's going to be easier. ....
I remember during the initial bench tests on the oem front bar, and WL rear, that I had asked if there was an initial high deflection due to the bushings:

"Was compensation (bushing deflection) vs load a linear plot, with no initial high deflection ..."

And you implied the load increments would need to be refined to pick that up (if it existed). So could you go with initial smaller increments to try to measure the initial give in the bushings?

.
__________________
From Delaware
Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident

Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo
KevinK2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to KevinK2 For This Useful Post:
phate (10-06-2015)
 Old 10-06-2015, 08:10 AM   #471

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

No go on getting the bar on, unfortunately. Fitment issues.

I'm getting more and more tempted to make my own.
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
ItsNox (10-12-2015), KevinK2 (10-06-2015), Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), phate (10-06-2015)
 Old 10-06-2015, 10:12 AM   #472
 
KevinK2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Delaware
Posts: 906   (View Stats)
iTrader: (0)
Rep Power: 0
KevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the worldKevinK2 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 228
Thanked 739 Times in 388 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 79 Times in 52 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
.... This (trying Phate's rear bar on another MS6) will also be a good test of how well Phate's bar mounts on another chassis. Delrin bushings are not very forgiving.
....
Originally Posted by xfeejayx
No go on getting the bar on, unfortunately. Fitment issues.
I'm getting more and more tempted to make my own.
Well you found the answer, but a different design may not be needed, especially since Phate's design is so good.

Phate made very exact measurements on his mounting points, likely more exact than the Factory tolerances. Regarding the the location of the mounting points for the bar bushing blocks, those may have been dimensions that included accumulated tolerances from 2, 3 or more more other specified dimensions.

For a universal version, if that is the goal, a combination of a few slotted holes and shims where those blocks mount, may allow the bar to be the alignment tool for installing the bushing blocks. And if needed, the delrin bushings could be replaced with cheap plastic bushings for alignment, and then poly bushings installed, which Phate noted may be better as it adds a slight delay before the full bar stiffness is available.


.
__________________
From Delaware
Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident

Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo
KevinK2 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to KevinK2 For This Useful Post:
Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), Nliiitend1 (10-06-2015), phate (10-06-2015)
 Old 10-06-2015, 11:01 AM   #473
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

It ended up contacting at a spot I didn't expect:



The pinch bolt hits the toe link on xfeejay's car. My car has ~1/8" clearance in that space when the car is at full droop! We think it's a minor adjustment, coming from a couple different places. I went with a standard length bar, rather than getting a fully one-off unit (mine was turned down from a standard bar, is all). Had I gone with my original length measure that was .75" shorter, it would probably fit his car just fine

The issue I worried most about - the alignment of the toe link boxes between different subframes - wasn't an issue at all. The brackets and bar went into place without any issue.

We did talk about a couple things to refine the design, which will probably get implemented when @xfeejayx; gets his bar. [Because we all know he's going to get one, even if he says otherwise.]

Edit: I'm wondering if the stock shocks (which he has) are longer at full extension than my Bilsteins. That could explain why his toe link is closer than mine (lower full droop point, which angles the toe link downward further).
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to phate For This Useful Post:
Code Monkey (10-06-2015), Funkster777 (10-06-2015), KevinK2 (10-06-2015), Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), Nliiitend1 (10-06-2015)
 Old 10-06-2015, 11:19 AM   #474

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Possible, but that pic wasn't at full droop. Probably lifted the wheel 3 inches or so before I decided it wasn't happening "safely"
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
KevinK2 (10-06-2015), Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), Nliiitend1 (10-06-2015), phate (10-06-2015)
 Old 10-06-2015, 12:49 PM   #475
 
Nliiitend1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5,749   (View Stats)
iTrader: (4)
Rep Power: 4015
Nliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the worldNliiitend1 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 10,876
Thanked 7,632 Times in 3,121 Posts
Groans: 67
Groaned at 17 Times in 16 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

You guys think the toe link bushing (OEM rubber vs. Clint's PU bushing - if I'm correct in thinking he's replaced that one) could be a factor in this?

Could even be an aggregation of tolerances with several of the rear suspension bushings, as presumably the PU bushing allows a bit less slop in arm location...
__________________
Stance is not a verb.

2008 MS3 GT
2016 MX-5 Club


Last edited by Nliiitend1; 10-07-2015 at 07:44 AM. Reason: typo
Nliiitend1 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Nliiitend1 For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (10-07-2015), Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), phate (10-06-2015)
 Old 10-06-2015, 01:24 PM   #476

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

To add to that, all my bushings are pretty much shot. Definitely could be the problem.
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to xfeejayx For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (10-07-2015), Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), Nliiitend1 (10-06-2015), phate (10-06-2015)
 Old 10-07-2015, 08:59 AM   #477
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I remember during the initial bench tests on the oem front bar, and WL rear, that I had asked if there was an initial high deflection due to the bushings:

"Was compensation (bushing deflection) vs load a linear plot, with no initial high deflection ..."

And you implied the load increments would need to be refined to pick that up (if it existed). So could you go with initial smaller increments to try to measure the initial give in the bushings?

.
I suppose I could go with finer increments for the first bit. Before, I was doing them with ~20lb sections of steel bars we have lying around. We have a heck of a lot more smaller pieces than we do bigger pieces, so it shouldn't be an issue.


Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
how do u know what legnth to set ur endlinks to one the front and rear?
It's a balancing act to get the least deficient setup, lol:

1) No binding or interference with other parts.
2) No preload at normal ride height (unless you want it for some reason).
3) End link parallel to direction of suspension arm travel.
4) End link perpendicular to the line drawn between the center of the bar's pivot axis and end link pickup.

#1 is mandatory, #2 is highly preferred. #3 and #4 are most often dictated by stock pickup locations and are unchangeable. They're also constantly changing angles as the suspension articulates, so it's a matter of setting them up the best for the range of articulation you'll be operating in most often.
Mauro_Penguin and ItsNox like this.
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to phate For This Useful Post:
Funkster777 (10-07-2015), Mauro_Penguin (10-07-2015), Nliiitend1 (10-07-2015)
 Old 10-07-2015, 11:37 AM   #478
 
MSP611's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: layton, UT
Posts: 2,291   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 0
MSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the worldMSP611 is the leader of the world
Thanks: 122
Thanked 1,489 Times in 585 Posts
Groans: 0
Groaned at 29 Times in 20 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

so testing by putting a jack under each wheel and setting these parameters should be sufficient?
__________________
In progress:
Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
MSP611 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to MSP611 For This Useful Post:
phate (10-07-2015)
 Old 10-07-2015, 01:24 PM   #479
Eth Fiend
 
phate's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Auburn Hills, MI
Posts: 6,943   (View Stats)
iTrader: (10)
Rep Power: 11222
phate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the worldphate is the leader of the world
Thanks: 14,865
Thanked 21,725 Times in 5,871 Posts
Groans: 7
Groaned at 17 Times in 14 Posts
(Thread Starter)
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Steeda bar is here. I'll rate test it this evening. A quick check of the dimensions says it's very close to the stock bar dimensions.










Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
so testing by putting a jack under each wheel and setting these parameters should be sufficient?
#1 should be done by articulating the suspension through it's entire range of motion. The only way to do that is to remove the spring/bump stop and move the suspension from full droop to full bump, watching everything and making sure the end link ball joints/sphericals don't neck out and nothing interferes with anything else.

#2 has to be done on flat ground at ride height, suspension fully loaded at "race weight" (including driver) if you want 0 preload.

#'s 3 and 4, if you can alter them, should be done by articulating the suspension through the range that you'll be most often operating in.
ItsNox likes this.
__________________
-06 MS6
-Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold



www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money.
phate is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to phate For This Useful Post:
Code Monkey (10-07-2015), Funkster777 (10-07-2015), Mauro_Penguin (10-08-2015)
 Old 10-07-2015, 01:55 PM   #480

 
xfeejayx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Morton Grove, il
Posts: 1,729   (View Stats)
iTrader: (1)
Rep Power: 1481
xfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the worldxfeejayx is the leader of the world
Thanks: 16,886
Thanked 2,694 Times in 980 Posts
Groans: 78
Groaned at 33 Times in 28 Posts
Not Ranked  0 score     
Default

Stock dimension for fitment, or diameter?
__________________
"Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome."
-Wetz
QFT
xfeejayx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

« sway bar shifting | - »

LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f12/mazdaspeed-6-suspension-data-diy-bilstein-coilovers-161806/
Posted By For Type Date
Shocks for a daily driven Mazdaspeed 6 This thread Refback 12-05-2015 09:07 PM
Whats New/General Speed 6 Discussion - Page 296 This thread Refback 11-29-2015 05:42 PM
fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 7 This thread Refback 08-23-2015 04:39 AM
fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 6 This thread Refback 04-25-2015 01:24 PM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 56 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 02-21-2015 12:36 PM
BC coilovers VS. H&R coilovers - Page 15 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 08-26-2014 07:50 AM
Whats New/General Speed 6 Discussion - Page 297 This thread Refback 07-28-2014 08:03 PM
racing aspirations » Suspension Geometry Calculator This thread Refback 06-21-2014 02:57 AM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 50 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum Post #48 Pingback 03-14-2014 12:36 PM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 46 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 01-20-2014 11:02 AM

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Suspension/combo or coilovers?? gurusev 2010 MS3 - Suspension & Brakes 35 07-31-2013 10:06 AM
BC Coilovers or Bilstein Dampers/H&R Springs Bleupit80 MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes 6 02-12-2013 06:35 AM
BC BR Extreme Low Coilovers vs KSport Kontrol Pro Coilovers Doberman MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes 9 07-28-2012 07:35 AM
Suspension Techniques Coilovers? asiandude74 MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes 6 02-05-2011 11:15 PM
MSD Dashhawk Data Logger Data Base JimmyMac MazdaSpeed 3/6 - ECU Computer Tuning 2 06-30-2008 09:43 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:37 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
vB.Sponsors
Template-Modifications by TMS
©Copyright 2008 ; 2019 Cymru Internet Services LLC | FYHN™ Autosports HQ
Ad Management plugin by RedTyger
Page generated in 0.66245 seconds with 26 queries