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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


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 Old 10-27-2015, 09:41 AM   #521
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
Hey when you are ready to order the front poly bushings from the commies let me know. If you could order everything double (including the rear LCA bushings) I can paypal you the money for the bushings and we can split the shipping costs 50/50 + add the shipping costs to send me the bushings from yours to my place after you get them.
Yep. I just emailed them asking for an updated list of available bushings. I was just looking around on their site and it looks like they've added a few with stiffer poly. I was hoping they did.
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 Old 11-02-2015, 10:27 AM   #522
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Forever rate testing...

Nliiitend1 and Crarrs like this.
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 Old 11-02-2015, 10:46 AM   #523
 
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WTF is happening in that picture? Educate a noob
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 Old 11-02-2015, 11:02 AM   #524
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Originally Posted by ItsNox View Post
WTF is happening in that picture? Educate a noob
Lol, I'm testing the spring rate of the tire. One of my corner scales is up top to measure the applied force. The vise grip snake thing with dial indicator is attached to the bottom plate of the scale which is directly on top of the tire. It's measuring the deflection from that plate to the "ground" surface the tire is resting on. Record force and deflection at different points and you can calculate spring rate (which is just force per deflection).

The calculated rate is half of actual rate since you deflect both the top and bottom of the tire, rather than just one like when it's on the car rolling. [Two springs of the same rate in series yield a spring half of their individual rate.]

Rinse and repeat for different pressures. I started at 50 psi, then went to 25 psi in 5 psi increments.

It's important because the tire acts like a second spring in series with the primary coil spring.

I'll post results in a while after I get back and throw them in excel.
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 Old 11-02-2015, 11:03 AM   #525
 
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Load cell and dial indicator to determine the spring rate of his tires. A tire works like a spring the same way the actual springs in your suspension do; they just move less.
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 Old 11-02-2015, 11:27 AM   #526
 
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Knowledge boner achieved. Thanks gents

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 Old 11-02-2015, 11:34 AM   #527
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
The calculated rate is half of actual rate since you deflect both sides of the tire, rather than just one like when it's on the car rolling. [Two springs of the same rate in series yield a spring half of their individual rate.]
Rather than springs in series, wouldn't this actually be more analagous to springs in parallel with some ratio proportional to the camber/roll angle of the tire? Thinking like a balance bar on a brake balance adjuster.
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 Old 11-02-2015, 12:00 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Crarrs View Post
Rather than springs in series, wouldn't this actually be more analagous to springs in parallel with some ratio proportional to the camber/roll angle of the tire? Thinking like a balance bar on a brake balance adjuster.
Sort of, but I think we're talking about two different things. I'll draw a diagram in a few, I think I know what you're getting at
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 Old 11-02-2015, 12:31 PM   #529
 
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Yeah, I'm thinking of each sidewall acting as an individual spring, with the load path passing through only the rubber. But I think I've just talked myself into realizing that things don't quite work out that way, since some portion of the force passes through the air "spring". Breaking down the relative spring rate contributions into air versus rubber is probably something best left to the tire companies, as they have detailed mechanical/kinematic models of what they're building.

EDIT: And I just re-read your original post, and realized which frame of reference you're speaking within. The vertical displacement needs to be cut in half because you're compressing the sidewalls at both the top and bottom of the tire. I was just jumping ahead to the next analytic step of how it applies to what the tire is doing dynamically when it's on the car. And....nope....I'm definitely not volunteering to help you write that script for your handling/setup spreadsheet.
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 Old 11-02-2015, 03:35 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Crarrs View Post
Yeah, I'm thinking of each sidewall acting as an individual spring, with the load path passing through only the rubber. But I think I've just talked myself into realizing that things don't quite work out that way, since some portion of the force passes through the air "spring". Breaking down the relative spring rate contributions into air versus rubber is probably something best left to the tire companies, as they have detailed mechanical/kinematic models of what they're building.

EDIT: And I just re-read your original post, and realized which frame of reference you're speaking within. The vertical displacement needs to be cut in half because you're compressing the sidewalls at both the top and bottom of the tire. I was just jumping ahead to the next analytic step of how it applies to what the tire is doing dynamically when it's on the car. And....nope....I'm definitely not volunteering to help you write that script for your handling/setup spreadsheet.
Yep, exactly right. I was only trying to isolate one side of the tire since that's all that touches the ground.

A diagram for us all to be on the same page:





I think this is what you were getting at (with an addition of horizontal springs):



Where k_v1 and k_v2 are dependent upon tire pressure...but you'll end up with some overall different spring rate as the tire gains or loses camber - which is where the horizontal springs come into play because they will add some stiffness in that vertical direction. I haven't studied tire models enough to know exactly how to model this system. I know there is also some damping in both the vertical and horizontal directions, not shown here. I am working on a side project to measure the non-rotational vertical damping of a tire that I might play with on one of these tires. I'm hoping to find that it's such a small affect that I can continue to ignore it (haha).




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Onto the tire testing:

[Hankook RS3 V2 255/40/17 on a 9.5" wide wheel. Might make it easier to find for someone seaching.]

I did 6 tests starting at 50psi, working down to 25psi in ~5psi increments. I only have a 1" dial indicator, so that really limited the testing deflection. The tire pressure gauge I was using wasn't the greatest. I left my nice one at an autocross a while back and haven't gotten it back. These graphs are for the actual rate of the tire as it would be on the car, on the ground.


This first graph shows all of the data points, starting with a zero'd initial reading:



^You can see a high initial deflection that I thought would throw off averages, so I made another chart without that point.



Those lines looked pretty darn linear, so I added some trendlines. The slope of the trendline is the spring rate of the tire at that pressure.

I compared a numerical average of rate (force per unit deflection) to the slope of each tire's trendline:




Fun stuff. The RS3's aren't terribly important for me to do this with, I just wanted to do it for experience. The test rig could probably be set up for more consistent readings. I will definitely use a dial indicator with more travel for the Hoosiers, and repeat some tests for testing consistency.
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 Old 11-02-2015, 03:50 PM   #531
 
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I think the "both sides" of the tire explanation was a confusion point. "Top and bottom" may have been a better description.
I don't think the air pressure changes that much dynamically. I recall setting the pressure, with tire on ground, then reading same pressure when loaded by car.
The sidewall rate does vary with set pressure, as Phate's plots show. But the sidewall structure also has a spring rate, low for all season, high for comp tires. I had a set that looked ok at 10 psi, on the car.
The tread is also an "elastic foundation" type spring, significant with passenger tires. When going from a tire set worn bald, to a new set of all seasons, you notice the smoother ride.

TireSpringModel.jpg


.
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 Old 11-03-2015, 10:44 AM   #532
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Nice work sir, You are most certainly that 1% of customer that really goes all in to there projects and try's to find every 10th of a second he can. You need to get on a race team somewhere with this kind of follow trough.
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 Old 11-03-2015, 03:04 PM   #533
 
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Originally Posted by CorkSport Vincent View Post
Nice work sir, You are most certainly that 1% of customer that really goes all in to there projects and try's to find every 10th of a second he can. You need to get on a race team somewhere with this kind of follow trough.
I'll be pit crew for said race team.
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 Old 11-03-2015, 04:36 PM   #534
 
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I agree with Corksport's comments. Phate is writing the book about modifying the suspension on this car.

Once you know the spring rate of the tires, you can fine tune the sprung weight's roll resistance at the front and rear suspensions. Looking at Phate front, with 800 lb/in springs and the oem 23mm front bar, I figured the wheel rate components up front: [ Note, actual OEM front bar is 24mm for MS6, and 23 for the M6. ]
425 lb/in springs
225 lb/in for the bar in a corner
640 total lb/in at the front wheel, while cornering (Phate can correct this)

Now the tire rate is added in series to the prior rate based on just steel stuff. Looking at his most excellent spring rate graph, for 30 psi, a tire rate is about 1350 lb/in. This softens the prior 640 wheel rate to 434 lb/in, or 68% of that value. Likewise at 35 psi and about 1600 lb/in at the tire, the rate drops to 457 lb/in, 71% of that "strictly steel" value.

The net effect is a bit softer suspension, and the tire contribution is a bit variable, as noted depending on camber condition, and how many g's are being held in the corner.


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 Old 11-04-2015, 12:55 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Once you know the spring rate of the tires, you can fine tune the sprung weight's roll resistance at the front and rear suspensions. Looking at Phate front, with 800 lb/in springs and the oem 23mm front bar, I figured the wheel rate components up front: [ Note, actual OEM front bar is 24mm for MS6, and 23 for the M6. ]
425 lb/in springs
225 lb/in for the bar in a corner
640 total lb/in at the front wheel, while cornering (Phate can correct this)

Now the tire rate is added in series to the prior rate based on just steel stuff. Looking at his most excellent spring rate graph, for 30 psi, a tire rate is about 1350 lb/in. This softens the prior 640 wheel rate to 434 lb/in, or 68% of that value. Likewise at 35 psi and about 1600 lb/in at the tire, the rate drops to 457 lb/in, 71% of that "strictly steel" value.

The net effect is a bit softer suspension, and the tire contribution is a bit variable, as noted depending on camber condition, and how many g's are being held in the corner.


.
That's exactly the idea. I need to incorporate this into my spreadsheet, now.

The numbers I come up with for my current setup, where I typically run ~35psi with the rears being slightly higher:

Front

850lb/in spring @ .73 MR -- 453lb/in WR
205lb/in bar @ .73 MR -- 109lb/in, but doubled in roll, so 218lb/in WR

so 671lb/in wheel rate


1590lb/in tire (typically around 35psi).

Combined rate of 472lb/in.



Rear

700lb/in @ .57 MR -- 227lb/in WR
72lb/in @ 1.0 MR -- 72lb/in, but doubled in roll, so 144lb/in WR

so 371lb/in wheel rate

1590lb/in tire (typically around 35psi).

Combined rate of 301lb/in.






Those are interesting if you go a little further with an assumption that the front and rear track widths are equal. I showed a page or so back that playing with track width up to 1" on one end of the car isn't a huge influence on roll bias, so the .2" difference we're ignoring is mostly negligible. Once you make that assumption, you can directly use the wheel rates to calculate roll bias.


Without Tire Spring Rate

Front WR + Rear WR = 671 + 371 = 1042lb/in

Front Roll Bias = 671/1042 = 64.4%



With Tire Spring Rate

Front WR + Rear WR = 472 + 301 = 773lb/in

Front Roll Bias = 472/773 = 61.1%

Comparing to my 58.1% front weight bias, it shows the car might be much closer to neutral than I thought, when I wasn't including tire spring rate.
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 Old 11-04-2015, 01:50 PM   #536

 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
That's exactly the idea. I need to incorporate this into my spreadsheet, now.

The numbers I come up with for my current setup, where I typically run ~35psi with the rears being slightly higher:

Front

850lb/in spring @ .73 MR -- 453lb/in WR
205lb/in bar @ .73 MR -- 109lb/in, but doubled in roll, so 218lb/in WR

so 671lb/in wheel rate


1590lb/in tire (typically around 35psi).

Combined rate of 472lb/in.



Rear

700lb/in @ .57 MR -- 227lb/in WR
72lb/in @ 1.0 MR -- 72lb/in, but doubled in roll, so 144lb/in WR

so 371lb/in wheel rate

1590lb/in tire (typically around 35psi).

Combined rate of 301lb/in.






Those are interesting if you go a little further with an assumption that the front and rear track widths are equal. I showed a page or so back that playing with track width up to 1" on one end of the car isn't a huge influence on roll bias, so the .2" difference we're ignoring is mostly negligible. Once you make that assumption, you can directly use the wheel rates to calculate roll bias.


Without Tire Spring Rate

Front WR + Rear WR = 671 + 371 = 1042lb/in

Front Roll Bias = 671/1042 = 64.4%



With Tire Spring Rate

Front WR + Rear WR = 472 + 301 = 773lb/in

Front Roll Bias = 472/773 = 61.1%

Comparing to my 58.1% front weight bias, it shows the car might be much closer to neutral than I thought, when I wasn't including tire spring rate.
Honestly, that jives much better with gut feel. I've never thought this car was a 'big heavy pig' that plows into corners. Also never had a performance car before, so who knows how my butt is calibrated.

Numbers make sense of how 5 psi extra in the rear can make a good difference, and that's ignoring what it does for heat/grip.
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 Old 11-04-2015, 02:12 PM   #537
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
... Those are interesting if you go a little further with an assumption that the front and rear track widths are equal. I showed a page or so back that playing with track width up to 1" on one end of the car isn't a huge influence on roll bias, so the .2" difference we're ignoring is mostly negligible. Once you make that assumption, you can directly use the wheel rates to calculate roll bias.
...
I'm glad our numbers were close, so my spreadsheet in not too far off, but still needs a tweek.

When I saw you had front and rear tracks as independent variables, I figured I needed to add that to my SS, but when you test the % change in the variable for 1" difference, that's about 1/60.6 or just 1.6% ... not worth worying about on this platform.


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 Old 11-06-2015, 05:01 PM   #538
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
... I went ahead and picked up and installed some poly bushings for the stock front sway bar. Energy Suspension part # 9.5109G. I want to see if this balances out the turn in and lift off oversteer we experienced during the last autocross....
Did you get a chance to test this change on the road?

I had the same issue with my street M6s when I upgraded the rear bar from 18mm to a Steeda 22.5mm with poly rear bushings, and rubber oem fronts ... slowed turn in. I went the "soft " correction by finding Audi RS4 rubber bushings for the rear bar, but they were as hard as poly's! Related chart: elastomer-poly-plastic hardness-scale



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 Old 11-06-2015, 05:29 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Did you get a chance to test this change on the road?

I had the same issue with my street M6s when I upgraded the rear bar from 18mm to a Steeda 22.5mm with poly rear bushings, and rubber oem fronts ... slowed turn in. I went the "soft " correction by finding Audi RS4 rubber bushings for the rear bar, but they were as hard as poly's! Related chart: elastomer-poly-plastic hardness-scale



.
Not yet. I've had the front bar unhooked intending to replace the rod ends when I got them in. They're in, and should go on the car tomorrow. I put the rear bar back on tonight. There's an autocross Sunday that we want to go to, otherwise it will be next weekend.
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 Old 11-09-2015, 07:20 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Did you get a chance to test this change on the road?

I had the same issue with my street M6s when I upgraded the rear bar from 18mm to a Steeda 22.5mm with poly rear bushings, and rubber oem fronts ... slowed turn in. I went the "soft " correction by finding Audi RS4 rubber bushings for the rear bar, but they were as hard as poly's! Related chart: elastomer-poly-plastic hardness-scale
We autocrossed yesterday with this setup. The poly bushings up front helped the turn in oversteer quite a bit.

We had the RS3's on for the first time. They did pretty well. I went as low as 28psi and they never had any sign of rolling over. In hindsight, that was probably too low for max grip and it likely ended up hurting times more than anything.

We were on an asphalt lot and we did two full sessions of 8 runs each (both Johanna and I). It started out cold, around 40° for my first session and I thought the car was dialed in pretty well within a couple runs. The car was totally predictable, was rotating very easily when I wanted it to, and could be controlled and brought back into grip with a little bit of throttle.

Johanna drove the 2nd and 3rd sessions and thought the car was too loose, but ended up beating my time by .040 seconds. I drove the last session where I also thought the car was too loose...so I dropped rear pressures and spun the car...dropped more and didn't go faster...So I was likely on the back end of the grip curve where dropping pressure resulted in less grip. I was too dense to realize it at the time so I ended up just being pissed off for most of my second session.

Lesson learned.




If I have time, I'll throw the Steeda bar on for next weekend.

I also got some MS3 adjustable uppers for the rear suspension from @zenit; that I'm going to test on the 6. The 3 and 6 run different uppers in stock form, but the SPC pieces look like they'll fit ok on the 6. I doubt they go on before next weekend, so it'll be a winter project. I'm hoping that with an adjustable upper there won't be as much cross talk between camber and toe like there is when adjusting the LCA eccentric bolt. That would let me dial in camber very easily for different surfaces. The asphalt likely needed less negative camber and we could have picked up a little rear grip to play with bar settings a little more.
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 Old 11-09-2015, 09:34 AM   #541
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
.... If I have time, I'll throw the Steeda bar on for next weekend.
...
With that very versatile rear bar you designed, with the option of buying a stiffer splined bar component, I think you should have options for increasing the front bar size, like the Steeda 26mm.

But, time rolls on, and the demand for front bars has decreased. Steeda used to offer a 28.5mm front bar, but dropped it. It can still be purchased from Racing Beat:
28.5mm front bar
but it's on back order and you must order it.

The point is with all you have done to make this car what it is, I think it's worth the investment in these two bars before they are no longer produced. The reduced price for the Steeda 26 is consistent with clearing inventory. I know the big 28.5 front bar may case too much reduction in the independence of the front corner suspensions, and would likely require a bigger rear bar component, but I figure you could always sell it if you don't use it. But I'd check videos of SCCA solo 1 winners with ~similar sized cars, to compare roll.

Just my $.02 . I have a Progress 24mm rear bar still in the box for my M6, in case when I put softer bushings on the Steeda 22.5 in the rear, the drop in overall stiffness (that you measured on a MS6 front bar) is too much. I bought it because it is likely discontinued, as it is no longer listed on the Progress web site.



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 Old 11-10-2015, 04:11 PM   #542

 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Johanna drove the 2nd and 3rd sessions and thought the car was too loose, but ended up beating my time by .040 seconds.
The car was a bit loose, thankfully not in the snap oversteer way, but, loose nonetheless. I admit that a lot of that was just needing to adjust my driving to the different surface. Asphalt is much slicker than concrete, and I was having a hard time figuring out how to use that in the first heat. I did much better in the second heat, when I was more conscious of this change. Then, I could really use the throttle to get around corners. It handled incredibly! Super predictable and rewarding in the use of smooth inputs. The set up got copious compliments from an Evolution driving school instructor, as well as another top competitor that I snagged for a ride-alongs!


Still, I think I've made the biggest improvement to the car out of all...

uploadfromtaptalk1447199934861.jpg
uploadfromtaptalk1447200001873.jpg
uploadfromtaptalk1447200017364.jpg

:p
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 Old 11-11-2015, 12:29 PM   #543
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I have the racingbeat FSB. Barely noticeable change from stock. Car still rolls like a mofo.
Not like the Hotchkiss FSB on the MS3 which really tightens down the front end.
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 Old 11-11-2015, 02:16 PM   #544
 
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High spring rate reduce the impact on roll with stiffer bars.

Tests by Phate show a 50% loss in stiffness due to poly bushing flex on the oem front bar. On my 90% tracked car, I had split aluminum bushings from ~1" thk plate, on a 1" dia front bar, greased with never seeze paste. No wear, no noise, no 50% loss. I'm sure Phate could come up with something to match his delrin rear bushings. Like a simple split plastic bushing with the top half od smaller than the bottom half, for anti rotation.

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 Old 11-11-2015, 02:32 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
I have the racingbeat FSB. Barely noticeable change from stock. Car still rolls like a mofo.
Not like the Hotchkiss FSB on the MS3 which really tightens down the front end.
What is your spring and bar setup now? I remember you had those crazy stiff rear springs, but I think you pulled them since they were ridiculously stiff.
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 Old 11-11-2015, 08:55 PM   #546
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I am running 425 lbs springs in the front on FSDs. And 250/500 progressive springs in the rear on self-valved bills. I need to run higher spring rates in the front.
Yes, the 200/2000 lbs progressive springs were a bit too much. That shit was giving me concussions. Even the 250/500 springs are pretty bouncy. I honestly don't know how you can run those 700 or 800 lbs rear springs on the street and call the ride solid. I tried 500 lbs standard springs and it was still just too bouncy for me. But may be it's my vagina. I do have a higher degree of sensitivity (girlishness) for that sort of thing.

Few more comments.

The RS3s. Those tires don't run very well when cold. You need to heat them up. On road courses they would run ok when cold but they would really start to stick after 2 laps. Also, yes 28 psi is too low for that tire. I run them at 42 psi hot and noticed they gave better feedback and stuck just the same as at 36.

The rear camber arms you want to try from the MS3. If they work, and you still want to eliminate crosstalk between motions, I have these here gusset reinforced arms below with spherical bearings. They are for Ford Focuses but fit perfectly on the MS3. There is of course more ride harshness so I took them off (see aforementioned vagina reference)
If you want them you can hais for cheap.

Oh and by the way. You got beat by a girl DRIVING YOUR OWN CAR. That's why no girl will ever drive my car. I couldn't bear a girl beating me at something. It's my small penis and correspondingly small self esteem.


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 Old 11-12-2015, 03:20 AM   #547
 
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are the speed3 and speed6 camber arms interchangeable like tht? or will it take modding?


Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
I am running 425 lbs springs in the front on FSDs. And 250/500 progressive springs in the rear on self-valved bills. I need to run higher spring rates in the front.
Yes, the 200/2000 lbs progressive springs were a bit too much. That shit was giving me concussions. Even the 250/500 springs are pretty bouncy. I honestly don't know how you can run those 700 or 800 lbs rear springs on the street and call the ride solid. I tried 500 lbs standard springs and it was still just too bouncy for me. But may be it's my vagina. I do have a higher degree of sensitivity (girlishness) for that sort of thing.

Few more comments.

The RS3s. Those tires don't run very well when cold. You need to heat them up. On road courses they would run ok when cold but they would really start to stick after 2 laps. Also, yes 28 psi is too low for that tire. I run them at 42 psi hot and noticed they gave better feedback and stuck just the same as at 36.

The rear camber arms you want to try from the MS3. If they work, and you still want to eliminate crosstalk between motions, I have these here gusset reinforced arms below with spherical bearings. They are for Ford Focuses but fit perfectly on the MS3. There is of course more ride harshness so I took them off (see aforementioned vagina reference)
If you want them you can hais for cheap.

Oh and by the way. You got beat by a girl DRIVING YOUR OWN CAR. That's why no girl will ever drive my car. I couldn't bear a girl beating me at something. It's my small penis and correspondingly small self esteem.


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 Old 11-12-2015, 04:42 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
are the speed3 and speed6 camber arms interchangeable like tht? or will it take modding?

Originally Posted by phate View Post

I also got some MS3 adjustable uppers for the rear suspension from zenit that I'm going to test on the 6. The 3 and 6 run different uppers in stock form, but the SPC pieces look like they'll fit ok on the 6.
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 Old 11-12-2015, 05:36 AM   #549
 
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 Old 11-12-2015, 06:41 AM   #550

 
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
I honestly don't know how you can run those 700 or 800 lbs rear springs on the street and call the ride solid. I tried 500 lbs standard springs and it was still just too bouncy for me. But may be it's my vagina. I do have a higher degree of sensitivity (girlishness) for that sort of thing.
The 800# hurt a little sometimes. The 700# on the other hand, really aren't bad! Much better now that the sway bars are attached again, haha.


Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
Oh and by the way. You got beat by a girl DRIVING YOUR OWN CAR. That's why no girl will ever drive my car. I couldn't bear a girl beating me at something. It's my small penis and correspondingly small self esteem.
Not the first time!! On the upside of that, this girl is fully indebted to help with improvements/repairs, and provides a garage for said repairs. And she might just win him (us) some times at scca events next year since the ladies class is ~1/6 the size of the open class, and far less competitive! I've been pushing myself hard to get here, and I still have a lot to learn. Also, I've been competing in his car for *almost* as long as he has (but am otherwise many years of autoX experience behind).


There I go again, making off-topic posts in the suspension thread. :screwy:
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 Old 11-12-2015, 06:50 AM   #551
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
You're killing me smalls.
o...lo siento... i thought u were jst talkin about interchanging camber arms not full upper control arms
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 Old 11-12-2015, 08:17 AM   #552
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I forgot I hadn't posted this yet. I tested my rear springs



That was an early setup that didn't give great results, but after a few setup revisions, I had a consistent rig.



I can add a few more graphs if you guys are interested, but this is what it boils down to. Rates of the springs over a short displacement range:



You can see that the SSS springs (800lb/in advertised) are increasing rate much more rapidly than the QA1's (700lb/in advertised). In reality, the springs are more like:

QA1: 680 lb/in, gaining rate at ~120lb/in/in (pounds per inch, per inch)
SSS: 815 lb/in, gaining rate at ~220lb/in/in

The QA1's DO level out at near their advertised rate, while the SSS springs consistently increase without leveling off. It's no wonder the "800" lb/in SSS springs felt significantly stiffer than the "700" lb/in QA1's.

Also note that this is displacement at the spring, while the wheel movement is spring displacement multiplied by the inverse of the motion ratio - so 1/0.57 = 1.75. That graph represents ~2.8" of wheel travel from the point of 0 load on the spring, then 2.8" into bump travel. That's probably the extreme of travel over serious bumps.
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 Old 11-12-2015, 08:26 AM   #553

 
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600s were qa1?
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 Old 11-12-2015, 08:28 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by xfeejayx View Post
600s were qa1?
Yep. I liked the 700's so much more that I sold the 600's...so no testing of those.
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 Old 11-12-2015, 08:52 AM   #555
 
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the QA1's are the blue coil company springs right?
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 Old 11-12-2015, 08:55 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
the QA1's are the blue coil company springs right?
SSS = Blue Coils. QA1 is its own company.
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 Old 11-12-2015, 09:20 AM   #557

 
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Explains why the jump from 700-800 was so much more noticeable, and less liveable, than 600-700 jump.
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 Old 11-12-2015, 10:15 AM   #558
 
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Nice work with the spring rate testing.

We know the rate is based on active coils, and with so few active coils in these high rate springs, especially the 800's, the change in last coil supported at the flat ground spring ends, based on load, appears to give the initial progressive rate (unless it's due to a quirk in the tire scale)

It would be interesting to figure the rates based on load with the car parked, and then look at pic's of the car in a corner and estimate the lean angle. Then figure the change in spring load and rate at the rear inner and outer sides. The outside heavily loaded spring would likely stay near the 700 lb/in, but the inside unloaded spring may drop close to the 600 lb/in rate, providing more lean than calculated with the spreadsheet, even if the tire rates are included.

With softer springs and more active coils, you have less of this coil "seating" effect with the springs.


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 Old 11-12-2015, 08:39 PM   #559
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
I am running 425 lbs springs in the front on FSDs. And 250/500 progressive springs in the rear on self-valved bills. I need to run higher spring rates in the front.
Yes, the 200/2000 lbs progressive springs were a bit too much. That shit was giving me concussions. Even the 250/500 springs are pretty bouncy. I honestly don't know how you can run those 700 or 800 lbs rear springs on the street and call the ride solid. I tried 500 lbs standard springs and it was still just too bouncy for me. But may be it's my vagina. I do have a higher degree of sensitivity (girlishness) for that sort of thing.
The ride isn't bad at all. The 600's were super comfy just cruising around town, and the 700's aren't much worse. With the 850F/700R, it's about the same ride quality (maybe slightly better) as a stock sprung, stock shock 1st gen MS3. I've been so impressed by these dampers since I got them back. Shaikh just posted this video, I thought it was pretty interesting.

Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
Few more comments.

The RS3s. Those tires don't run very well when cold. You need to heat them up. On road courses they would run ok when cold but they would really start to stick after 2 laps. Also, yes 28 psi is too low for that tire. I run them at 42 psi hot and noticed they gave better feedback and stuck just the same as at 36.

The rear camber arms you want to try from the MS3. If they work, and you still want to eliminate crosstalk between motions, I have these here gusset reinforced arms below with spherical bearings. They are for Ford Focuses but fit perfectly on the MS3. There is of course more ride harshness so I took them off (see aforementioned vagina reference)
If you want them you can hais for cheap.

Oh and by the way. You got beat by a girl DRIVING YOUR OWN CAR. That's why no girl will ever drive my car. I couldn't bear a girl beating me at something. It's my small penis and correspondingly small self esteem.
I'll probably start out around 38psi this weekend, then fine tune from there as they go up in heat and pressure. I'm usually pretty good at finding the ideal pressure, but I think I just started out way too low last weekend and didn't realize it at the time.

No shame here. She's gotten much faster since we started co-driving together regularly, especially in the past 6 months or so. She's helped with the entire process, and probably knows more about the 6 suspension than 99.9% of other people. Friendly competition between us has probably motivated both of us to get better and faster, and that's a good thing!





Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Nice work with the spring rate testing.

We know the rate is based on active coils, and with so few active coils in these high rate springs, especially the 800's, the change in last coil supported at the flat ground spring ends, based on load, appears to give the initial progressive rate (unless it's due to a quirk in the tire scale)

It would be interesting to figure the rates based on load with the car parked, and then look at pic's of the car in a corner and estimate the lean angle. Then figure the change in spring load and rate at the rear inner and outer sides. The outside heavily loaded spring would likely stay near the 700 lb/in, but the inside unloaded spring may drop close to the 600 lb/in rate, providing more lean than calculated with the spreadsheet, even if the tire rates are included.

With softer springs and more active coils, you have less of this coil "seating" effect with the springs.


.
With the 800's, you can literally see the inactive section move further into the first coil (from each end), which is likely the cause of the 'progressive' spring rate. You can see this effect is even more pronounced on the purple square plot of the SSS 800-B plot. It initially has a very soft rate relative to the rest of its range, and it is due to a very small gap at the tip of the coil to the next lower coil. The rate jumps up as the coil tip contacts the next lower coil.
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[QUOTE=phate;2981099]The ride isn't bad at all. The 600's were super comfy just cruising around town, and the 700's aren't much worse. With the 850F/700R, it's about the same ride quality (maybe slightly better) as a stock sprung, stock shock 1st gen MS3. I've been so impressed by these dampers since I got them back. Shaikh just posted this video, I thought it was pretty interesting.

His videos support a theory I've been a proponent of for quite some time - one should not be afraid of body roll, within reason. Mazda's suspension is tuned very well from the factory and its made to lean, in order to provide camber under compression, and traction when not in compression... I see so many folks try to stiffen the hell out of everything and just not let the suspension work... Sometimes, when the suspension is absolute shit, you want to eliminate ANY effect it can have, so 20kg springs all around, pretty much weld the wheels to the chassis, and you rely on tires along to provide "dampening." For the most part, I have been enjoying the autoX/street capabilities of the completely stock MS3 suspension with pretty good results...

Btw, for funsies and slightly relevant to this thread, here is a corner weighed fully loaded genPu, full tank of gas, TRMotorsports C3 17x9 wheels, Hankook V12 255/40-17 tires, and a small 8” ZoomBox-cased sub in the driver side trunk cavity + small 1ch amp in place of stock spare-mounted sub:
Without driver (3311 lbs): https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-t...4_175351-1.jpg
With 194lbs fat ass driver (3505 lbs): https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-f...024_175836.jpg
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Whats New/General Speed 6 Discussion - Page 296 This thread Refback 11-29-2015 05:42 PM
fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 7 This thread Refback 08-23-2015 04:39 AM
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Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 56 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 02-21-2015 12:36 PM
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