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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes. |
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__________________ From Delaware Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo | ||
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FCM Test Drive with No Dampers
Note I have consistently cautioned against excessive roll bar stiffness, that kills the independence of the independent suspension. On my tracked Rx7, I ran moderately stiff bars with otherwise stock suspension, and when jacking up one side of the car, there was near zero droop on the lifted wheel, and little compression of the loaded wheel. Lucky the Summit Point track was mostly smooth. Stock bars went back on after the last HPDE. .
__________________ From Delaware Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo Last edited by KevinK2; 11-14-2015 at 04:29 PM. | ||
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...On July 4th I even take the front one off ![]()
__________________ I drive fast, I turn fast, I do everything fast. I even breakfast. I tend to confuse people with my sudden changes of heart. Sometimes I even confuse myself, which tends to cause problems. "... if u can't find' em - grind 'em" - old Chinese proverb ![]() ![]() http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/ | |
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(Thread Starter) | ![]() ![]() ![]() We autocrossed both Saturday and Sunday this past weekend. Car setup: 850F/700R springs, stock front bar with poly bushings, my rear bar on full soft, 255/40/17 RS3 V2's. Saturday was spent figuring out tire pressures and learning how the RS3's behaved on concrete. Overall, both Johanna and I liked them quite a bit more than the Rivals. We ended up with 37/37.5psi front/rear. That gave us just a bit of oversteer if we asked for it, but nothing crazy and it was completely manageable. The RS3's may not have as much overall pure lateral grip compared to the Rivals, but they are much better at combined cornering and braking or acceleration. We realized that a little too late on Saturday, so neither of us did great - we ended up 3rd and 4th out of 5 (ouch!) and 18th and 23rd out of 104, overall. We came into Sunday armed with this knowledge and knew we had to push the car and ourselves to have any chance of keeping up. We ran 3rd heat (last one), and right out of the gate we were on par with the fastest times of the day, thus far. Things were looking up. I was trying to trail brake more than I ever have and think I did ok with it. I was getting on the gas HARD coming out of turns and for the first time experienced some inside front wheel spin. I need to address this, somehow. It was enough to end up 1st and 2nd in class (out of 10) and 6th and 14th, overall out of 105 drivers. My fastest: Johanna's fastest: Setup thoughts: 1) Poly bushings in the front end helped the turn in oversteer we were having the last time we were on concrete 2) The car could use a little more rear bias. It was still understeering in the big sweepers. That concludes the season for us. Awesome event, fun course, lots of good competition. And that brings us to this winter. There are a few projects I've been thinking about, so I've started a list: 1) chop and flare for the 275's - this is the top priority 2) Address the front wheel spin - not sure about this yet 3) Lighten the car a bit - exhaust and lightweight battery are the main sources
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() Man those runs looked fast! Have you considered getting a 51r sized battery and putting it in the trunk? Edit: of course you have. you built your own rear sway bar lol ![]()
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__________________ -06 MS6 -Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold ![]() www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money. | |
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() like this clint: Braille Battery B2015K, Braille Advanced AGM Lightweight Racing Batteries | Braille Battery this is the lightest ive seen without sacrificing too many CCA's they do have a 11.5lb one tho but low CCA's
__________________ In progress: Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar. Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter. Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna |
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() Out of curiosity since you rode along, where would you put my car with respect to bias? I was a little blown away how it behaved this weekend; neutral but had drift mode when wanted. Obviously the grip is a whole different level. Didn't really feel any under steer. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
__________________ "Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome." -Wetz QFT |
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() You can buy/make 1-2 lbs batteries now. A 6-lbs Braille will also work, although you would have to disconnect it and put it on a tender if you do not use your car every day. At this weight it does not make any sense to relocate to the trunk as the cable and bracket will weight more than the battery itself.
__________________ 2006 Mazdaspeed6 EFR 7163|FMIC|South Bend|FCM coilovers|Powerbrake BBK|RPF1 18x10.5|Nitto NT01 stripped|caged|freektuned 2017 Subaru BRZ MCS coilovers|Brembo BBK|6UL 17x9|Nitto NT01|ACE 350|Delicious tuned 2000 E39 M5 2001 MR2 2ZZ |
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![]() My only suggestion is to forget the idea of 'neutral' handling, and try to figure out why one end isn't sliding at least a little bit. Play with steering input in sweepers to see if the car can turn sharper or if you're really on the limit of front end grip, or give it a bit more gas to see if it understeers, or lift just a bit to see if it oversteers. Also factor in tire pressure differentials front to rear - I interpret significantly higher rear pressures as a fix for a pushy car. It moves you away from where the tire achieves max grip, and it makes the rear of the car stiffer making it seem more rear biased than it would be if the tire was at 'max grip pressure'.
__________________ -06 MS6 -Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold ![]() www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money. | |||
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() You could make something like this for autox and switch to a larger battery for daily duty.
__________________ 2006 Mazdaspeed6 EFR 7163|FMIC|South Bend|FCM coilovers|Powerbrake BBK|RPF1 18x10.5|Nitto NT01 stripped|caged|freektuned 2017 Subaru BRZ MCS coilovers|Brembo BBK|6UL 17x9|Nitto NT01|ACE 350|Delicious tuned 2000 E39 M5 2001 MR2 2ZZ |
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(Thread Starter) | ![]() ![]() ![]() Some pictures from the weekend: ![]() ^The bumper brackets finally gave up completely. Luckily they'll get tied together with the future flares ![]() My favorite picture, Johanna coming into the finish a little sideways and full throttle ![]() ![]() @xfeejayx; about to capsize: ![]()
__________________ -06 MS6 -Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold ![]() www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money. |
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__________________ In progress: Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar. Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter. Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna | |
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__________________ "Well, Racecar=Broke. Other kinds of awesome may not, but racecar does. But racecar=best kind of awesome." -Wetz QFT | |
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(Thread Starter) | ![]() ![]() ![]() Lightweight battery thread: Shedding Weight - Ultra Light LiFePO4 Batteries In other news on shedding weight. Last time I was driving up to autocross, the car suddenly got louder ![]() ![]() This exhaust is from the previous owner and it was pretty cobbled together. Flowmaster chambered mufflers...Anywho, I weighed this one muffler and it weighs 11lb, so I'm guessing I'll drop ~25lb getting rid of them and a few feet of piping. The car isn't all that loud, the last videos I posted are without that muffler, so I'm thinking I'll do a straight dump to the ground just below the rear seat. The last source of weight savings for this winter will be an AC system removal. Compressor, condenser, and lines up to the firewall. I'm not allowed to remove any of the HVAC system in the cabin, so it's staying. I'll add more as I order the belt and pulley for this project.
__________________ -06 MS6 -Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold ![]() www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money. |
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() A pulley? Just relocate the alternator to the front. Shorter belt = a few ounces saved + you can shorten the alternator wires, good for another ounce or two. ![]()
__________________ 2006 Mazdaspeed6 EFR 7163|FMIC|South Bend|FCM coilovers|Powerbrake BBK|RPF1 18x10.5|Nitto NT01 stripped|caged|freektuned 2017 Subaru BRZ MCS coilovers|Brembo BBK|6UL 17x9|Nitto NT01|ACE 350|Delicious tuned 2000 E39 M5 2001 MR2 2ZZ |
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(Thread Starter) | ![]() ![]() ![]() Alternator can't be relocated, per the rules.
__________________ -06 MS6 -Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold ![]() www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money. |
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() Imma leave this here:
__________________ "you, sir, are the most knowledge slow guy I know. Stop fucking around and drive faster." -feejay "if anyone else acts a fool, we'll punish them to Roberts oil hut to discuss string alignment technique" -wetzel |
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() ^ Same suspension, the guy on the left clocked in at 400 lbs though.
__________________ 2006 Mazdaspeed6 EFR 7163|FMIC|South Bend|FCM coilovers|Powerbrake BBK|RPF1 18x10.5|Nitto NT01 stripped|caged|freektuned 2017 Subaru BRZ MCS coilovers|Brembo BBK|6UL 17x9|Nitto NT01|ACE 350|Delicious tuned 2000 E39 M5 2001 MR2 2ZZ |
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Custom Rear Bar, post 235 "It's tough trying to stiffen the rear springs with bump stops that have velocity based properties, when a larger sway bar would work best. I designed a bar for rear swing axles, under the axles, but with a transverse leaf spring so there was much more area to work with. If the rules allow it, I'd make sure there is no way to do this, allowing some loss of ground clearance." Custom Rear Bar post 236 "If this were possible, the motion ratio could be much improved allowing a smaller dia bar that is much stiffer than oem. And with two sets of mounting holes at the lever arms, the arm length could have stiff and stiffer positions." Bar Rates at Wheel: (Phate) WL Soft Setting: 43 lb/in WL Stiff Setting: 52 lb/in New Bar Soft: 72 lb/in New Bar Stiff: 190 lb/in Also, Phate upgraded suspension bushings with either hard poly whiteline bushings, or soft poly oem type 1-piece molded bushings from Russian contacts. Not sure if xfeejayx did the same. .
__________________ From Delaware Current Fleet: 04 Mazda6, 93 Rx7 TT, 76 Triumph 750 Trident Tracked Cars: 68 Triumph GT6 (~full race prep'd), 81 Porsche 924 Turbo, 93 Rx7 twin turbo Last edited by KevinK2; 12-01-2015 at 08:14 PM. | |
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__________________ Stance is not a verb. 2008 MS3 GT 2016 MX-5 Club ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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(Thread Starter) | ![]() ![]() ![]() A few irons in the fire...First, the lightweight battery project is well under way. Everything has been shipped and I should have parts next week. Second, fender flares! CanyonRider over at mazda6club used flares from jdmflares.com second time around. His first version were of unknown origin and ~2" front and rear, then he replaced them with the 'wide zg flares'. His first version of flares starts here. Second version starts here. I considered some from the same site, but I don't think fiberglass would stand up to even 1 good cone hit. I generally liked the dimensions of the first set he had (the second set is really huge) so I went looking for something similar. For all things rice, eBay is the place to go. I found some ABS flares with a 2" lip from seller jdmff (in case anyone needs this in the future). Some pictures from their ad: Pic 1 Pic 2 Pic 3 (dimensions) They're coming from Russia, so they'll probably be here in January, haha. Lastly, I've been thinking about the minor front inner wheel spin I was getting at the last autocross. I'm not really sure what I'm going to do, but I have some ideas. [Other ideas welcome!] 1) Since I won't have to worry about rubbing fenders anymore, I can afford to lower the car just a bit more, which should reduce weight transfer a bit. 2) I've also said the car needed more rear stiffness, so we'll bump up rear bar stiffness just a touch relative to where it's at now - that should put a bit more load on the inner front. 3) Lower the front upper perches to allow more droop travel 4) Add rear bump stops that only engage in roll with pitch (cornering and acceleration). 5) Stop trying to accelerate so hard out of corners ![]()
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Canyon Racer's LSD That front hood is heavy and mounted high, not sure if you reduced weight there yet? CR removed the frame structure .. not sure how much weight that saved. .
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() Found you some new friends to go along with those JDM fender flares!! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() You missed this friend, flare-hanna.
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I can't do a whole lot to save weight in this class. No body/frame work other than fenders (but only up to the vertical plane of the wheel mounting surface when the wheels are pointed straight ahead)
__________________ -06 MS6 -Corn fed 07 MS3 - Sold ![]() www.mazdamotorsports.com <<--Mazda racer support program that is free to join and will save you a ton of money. Last edited by phate; 12-02-2015 at 08:21 PM. | |
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() I totes had this image url copied too!! But, I decided to go with the Protege instead. Thanks! more friends=more better! ![]()
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() Regarding the inner tire slip. 1. Aren't you moving to a larger front tire? (might eliminate or mitigate the slip) 2. Is it legal to put air bags in the springs? Might be possible to pressurize them so they don't affect the spring rates normally but when you're coming out of corners they could help keep the front tires down by jacking up the spring rate when the spring gets to a certain point in travel. (Kind of like your bump stop idea, I think) 3. I was always under the impression that a front LSD on an AWD vehicle induces really bad understeer. Am I wrong?
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Air bags are legal, but not something I want to work with. Bump stops are simpler and you can control stiffness/engagement point much easier since there are so many different ones offered. Early on in the thread I put together a list of ~20 bump stops from Eibach that could work in the 6. The understeer thing...sort of. How they engage and transfer torque is really important for them to be beneficial. Here's a good read about using them for autocross: Autocross.dsm.org - DSM Specific Autocross Tech Articles - AWD Differential Tech
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() I am fairly certain the MS3 F-LSD will work on the 6. Thought about swapping it in while I had the 6 tranny out. Decided against it. You can hais for cheap if you want. And yes I troll threads to sell my shit.
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Phantom Grip Kit Redline Limited Slip Friction Modifier As you said, a MS3 LSD may work. .
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Knowing you lose almost 50% in bar stiffness due to poly bushings, vs the Puhn calculated rate, it's possible to make Nylon or Delrin split bushings for the front oem bar. One guy's design: ![]() Or the JBR aluminum brackets for the MS3 may be a starting point.
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Steeda Front Sway Bar - 385lb/in I didn't measure bar deflection at the bushings this time, so I can't correct for bushing deflection. I come up with a theoretical bench rate of 570lb/in, so it's a reduction of ~32%. The poly bushings supplied with the Steeda bar are significantly harder than the Whiteline bushings for their rear bar. They were very difficult to open the split to slide over the bar, so I just slid them on from the end. The Whiteline bushings are pliable enough that I can split them without a problem. To answer your question: Yes, I have enough rear bar to compensate back to my current roll stiffness distribution. Even with solid bushings on the front bar so it is near the 570lb/in rate, I still have enough to just barely get more rear bias than I currently have.
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I was under the impression that delrin at least required semi-tight locational clearance type fit when used as a bushing. The MS3 stock bars that I've measured run pretty large diameter tolerances (+- 0.2mm) across the width of the bar. I've never thought of a good way to make the two work together.
__________________ "you, sir, are the most knowledge slow guy I know. Stop fucking around and drive faster." -feejay "if anyone else acts a fool, we'll punish them to Roberts oil hut to discuss string alignment technique" -wetzel Last edited by zenit; 12-04-2015 at 06:48 PM. | |
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You don't need to make the bushing bore compatible across the width of the bar, just 2 places. Large dia variations occur at the bend points for obvious reasons. I just measured a stock rear bar off a my Mazda rx7, at the bushing location, and it was +/- .0015", vs your +/- .008" along the length of the bar. The example I showed was not off a machined bar, like Phate's custom fabricated rear bar. http://www.members.shaw.ca/kremer/RSRProject.htm I used split aluminum bar for an oem front bar bushings on one tracked car, with no trace of looseness or wear. I do sand off the coating where the bushings are. I'd be interested in the diameter tolerance at your bushing locations. .
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This what your flares need to look like @phate; ![]()
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| ![]() ![]() ![]() First, some mechanical properties. Note that there are many versions of Nylon and Acetal (Dupont's Delrin), including special low friction and wear versions with either chemical lube additives ( Delrin 500CL) or solids like Teflon ( Delrin 100AF). I have samples of both. "Nylatron" is a slippery version of Nylon, with solids of a chemical lube. Nylatron family of Nylon bearing materials . Mechanical Properties of Various Bearing Materials From a design standpoint, you would want to reduce the contact width of the bushing, vs oem rubber and poly upgrades. In my own aluminum example, the metal bushing was 3/4" wide at contact with a 1" dia oem bar. The narrow contact reduces the effect of misalignment between the two support points on the bar ( perfect would be coaxial centerlines, hard to get with a cold formed bar shape). The narrow contact also increases the contact pressure at the plastic bushing, which typically reduces the coefficient of friction for these materials. The theoretical stiffness of the sway bar, with infinitely stiff bushings, is approximated by a formula derived by Fred Puhn, an engineer and race car driver. From his book "how to make your car handle" : Sway bar rate formula, Fred Puhn Note the width dimension is to the imaginary intersection points. No dimensions refer to the bushing locations. The softening effect on rate, due to poly and oem bushings, include how thick the bushing is, beyond the bar diameter, and the hardness of the bushing. It is also related to the ratio of the distance between the two bushings, vs the distance between the link holes at the end of the bar. If those two spans are about equal, then the softening effect is minimal. The smaller that Ratio of spans, the more softening occurs. .
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I have my stock rear anti roll bar in my garage.
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