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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


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 Old 12-09-2015, 12:21 PM   #601
 
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well, if you have access to a micrometer, or a caliper, please check the dia of the bar at the center of where the bushings cover, near vertical and 90 degrees around. Looking for how much out of round the bar is, in consideration of using aluminum or hard plastic bushings. OEM MS6 or MS3 will do. Thanks for anything you can do.

For a reference, here is a related discussion about experience with different suspension bushing material. The "jimlab" bushings were likely a moisture conditioned, lubricated version of nylon.
Bushing Material Experience on 3rd Gen Rx7's



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 Old 01-05-2016, 12:18 PM   #602
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Flares are here The shipping container is pretty much a grain bag tied with twine, not sure how it made it halfway across the world like that, haha.



They were packaged decently, though:



They look pretty good:



They are in unfinished condition, so most people will want to sand lightly and paint them:

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 Old 01-05-2016, 12:31 PM   #603
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Here's a little something to give you nightmares about the day you decide you want to run super wide tires...




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 Old 01-05-2016, 12:42 PM   #604
 
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I threw up a little in my mouth.
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 Old 02-03-2016, 05:42 PM   #605
 
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Hey @phate; I can't find this anywhere, what size/width/offset are those NT03's you are running?
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 Old 02-03-2016, 06:19 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by dale_gribble View Post
Hey @phate; I can't find this anywhere, what size/width/offset are those NT03's you are running?
NT03's are 17x9.5 +38. You'll need to roll the fenders flat and have decently stiff suspension to keep things from the extremes of bump travel. The tires will likely rip the inner fender out if you get far enough into bump. I run ~-2° camber front and rear at near stock height and things just barely clear. Shorter tires help.



In other news...I'm on a quest for stance.



nlmotoring is running a good deal on this color and the bright orange/red, so I nabbed these. I figure if they look hideous, I won't feel bad about painting a cheap wheel. 17x9.75 +25 XXR 527's. I'll have a set of A6's mounted on them this weekend, then we can see how silly big they look on the car. I wanted a bit more clearance in the rear due to how close the sway bar end link was to the tire. They just barely touched the inside of the tire at some point, but didn't cause any damage. These will give me the extra clearance and allow me to keep the RS3's on the Enkeis for now.

Mid march will be the timeframe to get everything done. I have ~10 days where I can pull everything apart and do the flares. Projects upcoming and going right now:
  • Bushings: are state side and are awaiting customs inspection. Should be here late next week.
  • Front UCA bushings: make from Delrin or Nylon
  • Battery: I need to draw something up in CAD still. The battery thread is really interesting, I recommend reading it.
  • Exhaust: need to buy a short elbow and we'll be in business.
  • Rear Adj UCA: test MS3 arms for clearance, and test camber adjustment to see if toe is affected.
  • Front Sway bar: if @xfeejayx; won't be using his bar for a while, I'll probably try it out.
  • Chop and flare
  • Corner balance and align
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 Old 02-03-2016, 06:59 PM   #607
 
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Curious to see how those wheels turn out.... I assume you will be running 275's? Will tag you in my thread in a sec, I have a list of 17x10 wheels + a favor to ask.
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 Old 02-03-2016, 07:04 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Curious to see how those wheels turn out.... I assume you will be running 275's? Will tag you in my thread in a sec, I have a list of 17x10 wheels + a favor to ask.
Yep, 275's. Anything 10" or wider in 17" diameter is hard to come by in the cheap/low weight bracket. These are the same weight as my NT03's, so I'm not taking a hit in the weight department.
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 Old 02-03-2016, 08:28 PM   #609
 
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Always improving. If u don't !mind me asking want did all the delrin bushings cost u roughly to ur door step?

Damn Ima have to roll pretty far as well on my 17x9 +48 and I hope the sonics are stiff enough tht I'm not rubbing like crazy on bumps and full travel. I do have 5mm spacers jusrt in case In the front but I don't think I'll need em cuz I won't be running a bbk now..

This thread is the shit, @phate; the man!!

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 Old 02-04-2016, 06:22 AM   #610

 
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Put the fsb on your car. It'll be a bit before I need it.

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 Old 02-04-2016, 06:35 AM   #611
 
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
Always improving. If u don't !mind me asking want did all the delrin bushings cost u roughly to ur door step?

Damn Ima have to roll pretty far as well on my 17x9 +48 and I hope the sonics are stiff enough tht I'm not rubbing like crazy on bumps and full travel. I do have 5mm spacers jusrt in case In the front but I don't think I'll need em cuz I won't be running a bbk now..

This thread is the shit, @phate; the man!!

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If you are referring to the Sonic Tuning Coils, I'm not familiar with the updated design but the rear spring is garbage, way too soft. I upgraded my rear springs after following this thread. Other than they are fine, for the money, get a 10k spring or higher and can actually feel the AWD kick in.

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 Old 02-04-2016, 07:34 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by xfeejayx View Post
Put the fsb on your car. It'll be a bit before I need it.
Cool. I might try it just to see how close I can get the over/under steer behavior when changing 3 things at once - tires, front arb, and rear arb. We'll see how good my spreadsheet is, haha.



Originally Posted by dagrimey1 View Post
If you are referring to the Sonic Tuning Coils, I'm not familiar with the updated design but the rear spring is garbage, way too soft. I upgraded my rear springs after following this thread. Other than they are fine, for the money, get a 10k spring or higher and can actually feel the AWD kick in.

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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post

Damn Ima have to roll pretty far as well on my 17x9 +48 and I hope the sonics are stiff enough tht I'm not rubbing like crazy on bumps and full travel. I do have 5mm spacers jusrt in case In the front but I don't think I'll need em cuz I won't be running a bbk now..
Like dagrimey1 said above, that rear spring is laughably soft. OTS rates are 12k/5k front rear (672/280 lb/in). That's a huge increase of front rate compared to a small increase in rear rate. If you run the numbers, you'll see that it's an increase in front bias, which means it'll be more prone to under steer - just what this car doesn't need.

I think the 10k spring (560lb/in) in the rear is a good match for the front spring. If you have the WL rear bar on stiff, it's a little more front biased than my current setup but not by much. Some bump stop tuning on each end could give you more rear bias if you wanted it. @dagrimey1;, how does the rear ride with that much of an increase in spring rate? Just curious if those dampers are handling it ok.



Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
Always improving. If u don't !mind me asking want did all the delrin bushings cost u roughly to ur door step?
The delrin bushings have all been home made. The poly bushings from Russia, with shipping, should cost around $250 for a complete set.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:13 AM   #613
 
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Re: spring rates, last time at the track I had an instructor in my car for a session and he told me I was probably doing everything I could with the front of the car (and driving it almost like it was a FWD car). He said he would like the car to slide out a bit more and would either go with a stiffer RSB or stiffer springs in the rear. Since I am already running 1000/700 springs and a Whiteline RSB on stiffest setting, I think dropping to 900 lb springs in the front may do the trick (or maybe disconnect the FSB if I feel adventurous).

Anyway, the lesson is that the pig needs much more rear spring and 12k/5k will not cut it, 12k/10k would probably be a better match.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:21 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Re: spring rates, last time at the track I had an instructor in my car for a session and he told me I was probably doing everything I could with the front of the car (and driving it almost like it was a FWD car). He said he would like the car to slide out a bit more and would either go with a stiffer RSB or stiffer springs in the rear. Since I am already running 1000/700 springs and a Whiteline RSB on stiffest setting, I think dropping to 900 lb springs in the front may do the trick (or maybe disconnect the FSB if I feel adventurous).

Anyway, the lesson is that the pig needs much more rear spring and 12k/5k will not cut it, 12k/10k would probably be a better match.
I have 700's back in my car. I could send you the 800's if you want to try them out.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:30 AM   #615
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Like dagrimey1 said above, that rear spring is laughably soft. OTS rates are 12k/5k front rear (672/280 lb/in). That's a huge increase of front rate compared to a small increase in rear rate. If you run the numbers, you'll see that it's an increase in front bias, which means it'll be more prone to under steer - just what this car doesn't need.

I think the 10k spring (560lb/in) in the rear is a good match for the front spring. If you have the WL rear bar on stiff, it's a little more front biased than my current setup but not by much. Some bump stop tuning on each end could give you more rear bias if you wanted it. @dagrimey1;, how does the rear ride with that much of an increase in spring rate? Just curious if those dampers are handling it ok.
I like it, but I'm not the Auto'Xer like you guys. I did handle quite well at the Dragon this year at Epic (was in front of you on a couple of runs). I'm currently running the QA1's 500lb/in in the rear on the Sonic coils it rides great. Damping seems to handle well for daily use and for my race needs. They fit well with the perch setup of Sonic so it is an easy swap. When those dampers go, I'm going to convert to Bils like you did if possible, as they always been my favorite. The pic is my current setup until my engine build finishes. Oh with the bigger spring rates you can ride grown folks in the back seats without issues as well.

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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:36 AM   #616
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
I have 700's back in my car. I could send you the 800's if you want to try them out.
What 800 springs, the QA1's go only to 700.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:39 AM   #617
 
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
What 800 springs, the QA1's go only to 700.
Pretty sure those are another set of the many he owns lol.


Also failed to mention the MS3 is not fun to drive for me that is why the wife drives it and she loves it. Gives true meaning to "PU".

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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:47 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
What 800 springs, the QA1's go only to 700.
The blue coils (SSS).

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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:48 AM   #619
 
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Hmm OK so I'm gunna order atleast 600lbs springs for the rear.

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 Old 02-04-2016, 09:05 AM   #620
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
The blue coils (SSS).
Trying to find more info on them, are they the same dimension as the QA1's (3.5" one side, 2.5" other side, 8" length)?
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 Old 02-04-2016, 09:08 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Trying to find more info on them, are they the same dimension as the QA1's (3.5" one side, 2.5" other side, 8" length)?
7" length, 5" OD. They fit perfectly. Details in an earlier post, I'll find it later since I'm out for a bit.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 09:26 AM   #622
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
7" length, 5" OD. They fit perfectly. Details in an earlier post, I'll find it later since I'm out for a bit.
So they don't have to be pig tailed? That is good to know.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 09:36 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by dagrimey1 View Post
So they don't have to be pig tailed? That is good to know.
As long as you have a perch that sits on top of the spring, you can use them.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 09:43 AM   #624
 
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Nice, I went with the QA1 springs for the plug and play method. Nice to know different options. For some reason I thought you fabbed something for it to fit. Well I read that post a while back so memory is off.

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 Old 02-04-2016, 12:54 PM   #625
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
The blue coils (SSS).
Who makes the SSS 800 lb springs? SSS India? Swift ? ACME ? Your test showed some progressive nature, not usually a good thing.



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 Old 02-04-2016, 01:49 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Who makes the SSS 800 lb springs? SSS India? Swift ? ACME ? Your test showed some progressive nature, not usually a good thing.
.
SSS

Suspension Spring Specialists, aka Blue Coils. They aren't the best, but they're pretty much a free option that code monkey can test with.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 02:00 PM   #627
 
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Just looking at the first post and interpolating the calculated ride frequencies, 1000/800 springs would give me 2.43 / 2.69 Hz?
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 Old 02-04-2016, 02:03 PM   #628
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Just looking at the first post and interpolating the calculated ride frequencies, 1000/800 springs would give me 2.43 / 2.69 Hz?
Frequencies become a secondary or tertiary concern once you start tuning balance. I wouldn't worry much about it.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:12 PM   #629
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Frequencies become a secondary or tertiary concern once you start tuning balance. I wouldn't worry much about it.
I'm glad to hear this evolution of your suspension tuning thought process


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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:21 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I'm glad to hear this evolution of your suspension tuning thought process
Heh. Especially for us with the limited selection of rear ARB's, the frequency method has to be put aside to balance the car. I do think it's a great way to get in the ball park of correct spring rates, though. An interesting point Shaikh made in one of his recent videos was that a car that is set up for flat ride will need less damping to control pitch motion...I've not done any sort of analysis of this to attempt to validate that claim, but it's something to think about.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:34 PM   #631
 
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Have you tried the XXR's and 275's on stock fenders (pictures?) or are you going straight for the flares?
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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:47 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Have you tried the XXR's and 275's on stock fenders (pictures?) or are you going straight for the flares?
275's get mounted this Saturday, so whenever I have some time and a warm enough day I'll throw them on. The rears might clear with a combination of huge pull and adjustable UCA to bring the top of the tire in (maybe decrease track width combined with the LCA adjustment).

I have more doubt about the fronts, though. These pictures are with my Enkeis and 255/40 RS3V2. No questions, the front part of the fender where it meets the bumper will need shaved:



With more pull than I have and maybe a little more negative camber (which you run, anyway), it might clear everywhere else:



It depends on how close the tire is to the fender at full tilt cornering. If you hit a decent bump or wavy section, it'll likely contact the fender. There's only a small section of the fender that actually needs trimmed, and it's to allow steering angle at/near full compression.




I think this is full bump with a 25" tire, whereas the hoosiers are 25.7". Another 3/8" into the fender.




Maybe that picture is just the front of the tire hitting the fender/bumper section that sticks out. I don't remember.
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 Old 02-04-2016, 08:57 PM   #633
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This should give everyone an idea of what area needs cut out of the fender:



Imagine turning right so the wheels are pointed right. The rear of the tire sticks further out and that's the problem area.
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 Old 02-05-2016, 06:43 AM   #634
 
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A 1 way clutch pack Lsd would be amazing in the front of our speed6's, It wouldn't cause any understeer at all it would in fact cause oversteer under power because it would pull the front end around. I would Avoid a 1.5/2 way Diff those WILL cause understeer off throttle.

If the MS3 diff does fit our speed6 trans you could get a Cusco Type MZ/RS 1 way
Cusco Type MZ LSD Front Diff 1 Way - LSD471A - RHDJapan
the Add says its a torsen but it is in fact a Clutch/plate type.
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 Old 02-06-2016, 07:37 AM   #635
 
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Originally Posted by zenit View Post
Imma leave this here:
AutoX corner pics of Phate's car and a similar red car, pg 15.

Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
^ Same suspension, the guy on the left clocked in at 400 lbs though.
If really same race springs and oem front bar, that much body roll difference could be all the changes Phate made to the chassis and suspension bushings, including poly bushings on the front bar.


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 Old 02-06-2016, 09:03 AM   #636
 
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
AutoX corner pics of Phate's car and a similar red car, pg 15.



If really same race springs and oem front bar, that much body roll difference could be all the changes Phate made to the chassis and suspension bushings, including poly bushings on the front bar.


.
FYI, page numbers for a thread are dependent on a user's view settings. It's better to use post #s when referring back (link to that specific post is below).

MS6 Suspension Data & DIY Bilstein Coilovers

And to be clear, that red car is on stock springs.

@Code Monkey; was just making a joke.
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 Old 02-06-2016, 11:11 AM   #637
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Pretty good fit!
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 Old 02-07-2016, 11:16 AM   #638

 
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Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 View Post
And to be clear, that red car is on stock springs.
who is that dumbass trying to racecar with stock suspension?


The responsiveness of phate's car compared to mine is the biggest difference to me. I understand the neverending quest for grip (because physics says you'll go faster), but the responsiveness I notice immediately. That time for my car to roll is torture.
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 Old 02-07-2016, 11:30 AM   #639
 
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Originally Posted by xfeejayx View Post
The responsiveness of phate's car compared to mine is the biggest difference to me. I understand the neverending quest for grip (because physics says you'll go faster), but the responsiveness I notice immediately. That time for my car to roll is torture.
Phate has done an amazing job on his car's suspension. The result with 2X to 3X higher spring rates, a stock front bar and self designed rear bar, it maintains the independent suspension that would be lost with just big bars, and it keeps the car streetable. I have always heard in the different race series, indy car - cart - imsa prototype, etc, how important it is to really set-up and tune quality shocks, and that was one of his first steps. And all mods based on the principles of physics, A++


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 Old 02-09-2016, 07:55 AM   #640
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I'll try to keep this list updated for my own sake. I've added a couple things I forgot about.
  • Bushings: should be delivered 2/10 or 2/11.
  • Front UCA bushings: make from Delrin or Nylon.
  • Battery: I need to draw something up in CAD still. The battery thread is really interesting, I recommend reading it.
  • Exhaust: need to buy a short elbow and we'll be in business.
  • Rear Adj UCA: test MS3 arms for clearance, and test camber adjustment to see if toe is affected.
  • Front Sway bar: if @xfeejayx; won't be using his bar for a while, I'll probably try it out.
  • Chop and flare.
  • Corner balance and align.
  • Test spring rate of Hoosiers at different pressures.
  • AC Delete - idler pulley and belt ordered.
  • Turbo and downpipe gaskets (not really related to this thread, just something on my list of to-do's).

I'll do the Hoosier testing this weekend, just like I did with the RS3's.
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LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f12/mazdaspeed-6-suspension-data-diy-bilstein-coilovers-161806/
Posted By For Type Date
Shocks for a daily driven Mazdaspeed 6 This thread Refback 12-05-2015 09:07 PM
Whats New/General Speed 6 Discussion - Page 296 This thread Refback 11-29-2015 05:42 PM
fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 7 This thread Refback 08-23-2015 04:39 AM
fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 6 This thread Refback 04-25-2015 01:24 PM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 56 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 02-21-2015 12:36 PM
BC coilovers VS. H&R coilovers - Page 15 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 08-26-2014 07:50 AM
Whats New/General Speed 6 Discussion - Page 297 This thread Refback 07-28-2014 08:03 PM
racing aspirations » Suspension Geometry Calculator This thread Refback 06-21-2014 02:57 AM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 50 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum Post #48 Pingback 03-14-2014 12:36 PM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 46 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 01-20-2014 11:02 AM

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