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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


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 Old 02-22-2016, 08:28 AM   #681
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Spring rate to wheel rate is done by using the square of the motion ratio due to how we create an equivalent spring rate (not just a force balance). You lose force through the loss of leverage by a factor of the motion ratio, and you also increase the distance traveled at the wheel compared to the spring by a factor of the motion ratio. So you lose leverage twice by a factor of the motion ratio.

That's <spring rate> x <MR> x <MR>, or just <SR> x <MR>^2
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 Old 02-22-2016, 09:28 AM   #682
 
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Originally Posted by vortk355 View Post
... Would these work for the rear? Rear Adjustable Spring Perch & Mount - Kaplhenke Racing LLC.....
That is a volvo site, and about the perches:
"These Rear Adjustable Spring Perches have a 10mm mounting hole that can be bolt onto the frame rail of the Volvo 240 740 760 940 with solid axle suspensions."

Will they work? your guess is as good as anyone's.

I suggest you review the 1st post, and search this thread.


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 Old 02-22-2016, 11:00 AM   #683

 
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Won't work. We need hollow all the way through.

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 Old 02-22-2016, 11:36 AM   #684
 
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yep im dumb, did not read thoroughly.
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 Old 02-22-2016, 11:49 AM   #685
 
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
...

350 lbs pig tail springs compared to stock. Rear. Best DD set up so far. Much firmer than stock. Minimal squat left. Not bouncy.

...
Originally Posted by vortk355 View Post
...
Tomas are the rear springs you are using require the adjustable spring perch?
I was also going to ask about these. Assume with pigtail spring does not need perches. Where did you get them?

I had planned to with 600lb rear springs but now not sure.
OEM rear 180
BC rear 440
600 probably too stiff but 350 might be not be stiff enough given the weight of my rear end.

Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
...

MS6 front with FSD and 425 springs (hands down best front DD set up ever for MS6)
I am also still trying to determine what to do on fronts.
To do FSDs like you I would need to buy new FSD inserts come march. What shocks to you run in the rear?
Or I get Bilstein or keep koni yellows.
Either way I will need top hats and springs for front.

OEM front 180
BC front 660

I felt the BC stiffness was good but the dampening not so much and as I posted before mine made noises (believe it was the front valves).

So not sure a 425 spring is stiff enough but I may just try out what you say is best ride for DD and go from there. But I also likely have a much heavier car by ~400lbs or more.
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 Old 02-22-2016, 03:35 PM   #686
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Originally Posted by aviator79 View Post
I was also going to ask about these. Assume with pigtail spring does not need perches. Where did you get them?

I had planned to with 600lb rear springs but now not sure.
OEM rear 180
BC rear 440
600 probably too stiff but 350 might be not be stiff enough given the weight of my rear end.
I think the OTS Bilstein B6's for the rear of the MS6 are underdamped quite a lot, even for the stock spring rates. They're soft. It'll be a nice ride, but I think they're far from ideal as a "performance" setup.

Rear springs: Perches are necessary if you want to adjust ride height. Otherwise you're stuck with the height the spring rate and length gives you. The spring seat surface on the subframe is flat. Pigtail springs will not work up there unless you get a stock like adapter that has a bevel ring to take up that space of one coil where the wire ends. A flat spring up top, either 5" OD or ~3.5" ID is easier to work with. The control arm spring seat will accept either a 2.5" ID pigtail spring or 5" OD flat spring.



Originally Posted by aviator79 View Post
I am also still trying to determine what to do on fronts.
To do FSDs like you I would need to buy new FSD inserts come march. What shocks to you run in the rear?
Or I get Bilstein or keep koni yellows.
Either way I will need top hats and springs for front.

OEM front 180
BC front 660

I felt the BC stiffness was good but the dampening not so much and as I posted before mine made noises (believe it was the front valves).

So not sure a 425 spring is stiff enough but I may just try out what you say is best ride for DD and go from there. But I also likely have a much heavier car by ~400lbs or more.
I don't think I've posted this before. If you want to run Koni inserts and convert the stock front shock housing to a coil over, it's as easy as knocking the stock spring seat off. I don't know the body or shaft lengths of the Koni inserts, but the OD of the shock body is the same as the Bilstein. So either the same threaded sleeve I'm using will work if you cut one end off (so it goes lower onto the body), or the A12451 could work. Again, I don't have these, so I can't tell you exactly what will work, including spring length.

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Last edited by phate; 02-23-2016 at 07:39 AM.
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 Old 02-23-2016, 07:02 AM   #687
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The 350 pig tail springs are also Blue Coil OTS. I had to cut part of the pig tail so they would fit the OEM perch.

Suspension Spring Specialist, Inc.

For rear dampers I run Bilstein take aparts. As Phate mentioned the rear B6 Bills are too soft and so are the FSDs.
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 Old 02-24-2016, 03:06 PM   #688
 
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Hi @phate; are you still running "dynamic dampers" in the rear, part # GP9A2865XA and GP9A2866XA? I guess they are not really needed? I lost the LR one when I spun last time (or maybe way before that, just never noticed). I guess at this point the only use I have for them is so they get hit first before the bottom of the shock gets hit (or a remote reservoir on the shock).
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 Old 02-24-2016, 04:50 PM   #689
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Hi @phate; are you still running "dynamic dampers" in the rear, part # GP9A2865XA and GP9A2866XA? I guess they are not really needed? I lost the LR one when I spun last time (or maybe way before that, just never noticed). I guess at this point the only use I have for them is so they get hit first before the bottom of the shock gets hit (or a remote reservoir on the shock).
They're gone.
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 Old 02-25-2016, 06:52 AM   #690
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Phate,

I was about to install the rear LCA bushings. They steel bush measured 52mm long as opposed to OEM 51.5mm. I did not proceed with the installation since I don't have a lathe at home to cut them down to size.It's a tight fit so I don't think they will fit but I didn't press the OE rubber out so I don't know.

Did you install your soviet bushed rear LCAs yet?
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 Old 02-25-2016, 07:13 AM   #691
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
Phate,

I was about to install the rear LCA bushings. They steel bush measured 52mm long as opposed to OEM 51.5mm. I did not proceed with the installation since I don't have a lathe at home to cut them down to size.It's a tight fit so I don't think they will fit but I didn't press the OE rubber out so I don't know.

Did you install your soviet bushed rear LCAs yet?
Yes, they're on the car now. They were snug, but didn't take much work to get in. On some of the bushings, the poly overhangs the steel bush a tiny bit - did you check that this wasn't the case with yours?
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 Old 02-25-2016, 07:43 AM   #692
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Yes I did.
The 0.5 mm difference is not due to the poly overhang.
Good to know they fit.
I am gonna start hitting the dumb bells so I can fit them in.
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 Old 02-26-2016, 08:16 AM   #693
 
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@phate; is there anything wrong with using an adjustable perch on the bottom of the spring between the control arm and spring on the rear?
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 Old 02-26-2016, 08:45 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by davychronic View Post
phate is there anything wrong with using an adjustable perch on the bottom of the spring between the control arm and spring on the rear?
Nothing wrong with it if you find one that works that way and you find springs that fit. It might be more difficult to adjust height since it will be down in the spring cup.
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 Old 02-26-2016, 08:50 AM   #695
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Nothing wrong with it if you find one that works that way and you find springs that fit. It might be more difficult to adjust height since it will be down in the spring cup.
Are there holes in the bottoms of the spring cups on the 6 like on the 3?

The KW and MS coilover perches for the 3 (that sit down in the cups) are super easy to adjust height because all you have to do is put an allen wrench in the end of a stud and turn.
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 Old 02-26-2016, 09:14 AM   #696
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Nope, that would have been too easy.
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 Old 03-11-2016, 07:06 AM   #697
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We're starting on the car today, but check these out. They're unexpectedly awesome.







It's too bad I can't use spherical bearings in my suspension arms due to class rules. I'm hoping to find the bushing diameters are the same as stock. If so, I'll swap in the Russian poly.
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 Old 03-11-2016, 08:36 PM   #698
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Russian bushings fit the front lower control arms just fine.



The Whiteline bushings were toast. Radial play in all of the lca's.

Comparo shots of the oe and steeda bars.





And while the subframe is out, AC delete. I didn't feel like pulling the front clip so the condenser is staying for now. I need a different length belt than the one I got, but that's an easy fix.



We'll have things back together Sunday, I think. Still need to do a couple things while everything is apart, but they're minor compared to this stuff.
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 Old 03-13-2016, 01:57 PM   #699
 
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Are you sure that's not an aluminum sway bar?

Owners bought them as rear bars based only on price, for Mazda 6's.
Aluminum Rear Sway Bar from Ebay
Aluminum Rear Bar Installed on M6

I ran the numbers and although it's 22mm vs 19 oem, it's 40% softer than the oem bar! And the guy is still selling them for $80.


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 Old 03-15-2016, 10:06 AM   #700
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
.... Comparo shots of the oe and steeda bars.


.....
It will be interesting to see if a 38% increase in front bar stiffness, 26mm vs oem 24mm (and likely similar increase in the custom rear bar adjustment) improves your times. Definitely less roll, but slightly less "side to side" independence in the suspension.

I saw this article about a successful Time Attack Celica FWD with NO front bar, 22mm rear, and 500 lb front and 670 lb rear Swift springs on BC CO's. Very much lowered correctly. Just an example where minimal bars were used.
Celica-GTS-Time-Attack-Car (page 4)


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 Old 03-16-2016, 06:13 AM   #701
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
It will be interesting to see if a 38% increase in front bar stiffness, 26mm vs oem 24mm (and likely similar increase in the custom rear bar adjustment) improves your times. Definitely less roll, but slightly less "side to side" independence in the suspension.

I saw this article about a successful Time Attack Celica FWD with NO front bar, 22mm rear, and 500 lb front and 670 lb rear Swift springs on BC CO's. Very much lowered correctly. Just an example where minimal bars were used.
Celica-GTS-Time-Attack-Car (page 4)


.
Yes it will. I'm increasing how much roll resistance the bars contribute by 10%, overall. End of last season they were only 36%, with this setup it will be 46%. Hopefully the combination of changes will keep the inner front planted enough to not spin.


Big update coming in the next day or two. Lots of work has been done, and I'll hopefully finish up most of it today and corner balance/align it tomorrow.
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 Old 03-16-2016, 06:39 AM   #702
 
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Attached Images
File Type: jpg 4801690.jpg (103.6 KB, 208 views)
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 Old 03-17-2016, 04:45 PM   #703
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No flares, yet. I got everything cut and tire clearance is no longer an issue. I'm going to make a thread just for the flares. I have a ton of pictures, but here's a couple showing clearance.





275/40's work, but the clearance at the back of the wheel well is only ~1/2" or so at high steering angle. The unibody panels extend out into the wheel well and will limit more tire width unless you do some serious body work in there.





New battery is in!



Net weight savings of ~38lb.




AC Delete. I removed the compressor and lines, but not the condenser. That will be for a time when I have a good reason to pull the front clip.







Rear upper control arms...kind of a pain. The MS6 arms use a spherical bearing that isn't class legal. The bushing OD is bigger than the stock MS6 bushings, so I couldn't just swap them in. The MS3 arms DO use a bushing that has the same diameter as the stock MS6 bushings, but the width isn't enough...so we do some hybridizing...



Take the adjustable end from the MS3 arm, replace the bushing with one from an MS6...



Boom, class legal adjustable uppers.





Steeda front bar:



So, that portion of the stock bar that gives clearance to something apparently gives clearance for the exhaust. Well, the steeda portion is bent in another direction that happens to put it directly into the exhaust...



The downpipe need a bit of massaging to clear, but I did get it to clear. What a pain.






After all of that work, we threw it onto the scales:



That's no driver with just over half a tank of gas. Estimated 3230 lb without any fuel, and 3320 with a full tank


With driver and after corner balancing:



The left/right weight is a little off now since the majority of weight reduction happened on the passenger side. Probably not anything I'll be able to notice, but something to consider when doing this sort of thing.




I need to reattach the front bar and we'll be ready to go for the season opener this weekend. It's still pretty chilly, and the forecast is showing highs in the upper 40's, so we'll likely be on the RS3's. I doubt we could get enough heat into the Hoosiers to make it worthwhile, so we aren't going to waste the rubber.

@Code Monkey;, I have a bunch of pictures of the front subframe bushings I'll post in your thread.
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 Old 03-17-2016, 06:34 PM   #704
 
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So you pulled the front subframe but did not have time to pull the front bumper and remove the condenser, makes sense....
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 Old 03-17-2016, 08:27 PM   #705
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
So you pulled the front subframe but did not have time to pull the front bumper and remove the condenser, makes sense....
Yep I just now finished up reattaching the front bar. Tomorrow morning we're heading up for the weekend, so I'm out of time for bigger items. Flares might be a next weekend project, you don't need them to drive or autocross!
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 Old 03-18-2016, 07:42 AM   #706
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Yep I just now finished up reattaching the front bar. Tomorrow morning we're heading up for the weekend .......
Based on your front bar bench tests, the Steeda 26mm front bar is 72% stiffer than the oem 24mm with poly bushings. The effect is lessened by the very stiff springs you use.
Steeda Bench Test
OEM with Poly Bench Test

Have you done any test runs (empty parking lot) to see if you now have any understeer issue, so you could "ball park" tune the rear bar before the autox? Perhaps you already did this, and/or the car is already packed for the trip. I've done this many times after making significant suspension changes.

(BTW when you have some time, it would be very informative to do a bench test with simple rigid bearings to verify Puhn/Staniford rate calculations)



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 Old 03-18-2016, 01:09 PM   #707
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I haven't done any testing that gets me to that level of grip. We'll know tomorrow, hopefully the rain holds off long enough for us to get good runs in.

I adjusted the rear bar to achieve the same bias as the car had last year. That's getting thrown off because I adjusted for the Hoosiers and we're running RS3's this weekend. I can post some calculations later, currently driving up for the weekend.
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 Old 03-18-2016, 02:12 PM   #708
 
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With your accurate math model, a calc is the next best thing to a test drive. Good luck!


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 Old 03-19-2016, 04:12 PM   #709
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The car has a ferocity that we haven't seen before. I took the class by 1.5s, and took 3rd overall only behind a shifter kart and new Porsche GT3 on slicks... I don't feel too bad about that.

The car needs more negative camber. I was running -2.0° all around, so I'm dialing in -2.5° all around for tomorrow. I'll give a better rundown after the weekend!
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 Old 03-21-2016, 12:08 PM   #710

 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
The car has a ferocity that we haven't seen before. I took the class by 1.5s, and took 3rd overall only behind a shifter kart and new Porsche GT3 on slicks... I don't feel too bad about that.
Yes. All of this. It's incredible. In a way that I didn't even know was missing. For the most part, I was too busy smiling ear to ear and hitting cones to remember how to drive well this weekend, but OMG this thing can take some major abuse. This stiffer bushings and sway bar are incredible. And that's not even on the Hoosiers yet!!!!!


Originally Posted by phate View Post
The car needs more negative camber. I was running -2.0° all around, so I'm dialing in -2.5° all around for tomorrow.
@phate; and I feel a bit differently about this one, and I'm just a girl, so I don't know why I bother posting my thoughts here when he's going to give you the whole rundown...
BUT, overall, I was much happier with the car before the extra camber adjustment. As I said in my last response, it was super aggressive, predictable, and tolerant on Saturday. I was sideways through most of a giant sweeper, and recovered coming out of it simply by giving it gas. It was lovely!
It got a lot more oversteer-y at -2.5° and in my opinion, not in the best way. We both had several instances where the car got pretty out of hand in oversteer (and even some snap oversteer), and it wasn't as easily recovered by just giving it more gas. (Actually, i think we both ended up with 1 off-course run for this very reason.. I don't remember if his was, but he blasted through a slalom sideways, so it may as well have been, haha.)
I think we DID agree on the reason for this change being a mismatched grip ∆ between the front and rear of the car with the equal -0.5° change all around. According to him, the front may have picked up grip a lot faster than the rear with the extra -0.5°, so we'll have to figure out how to balance it. According to me, the bottom line is that it's unbalanced, and I need to see a quantification of this "grip increase," to believe it was there and make it worth following. Especially with the horrendous tire wear we saw up front! Afaik, that was a butt dyno measurement that we also didn't agree upon... knowing him though, he'll probably pull some magical data out of his logs that prove me wrong (and I welcome that.)

Either way, it's a new animal this year. And its potential leaves me yearning for Evo school in May, where I'm looking forward to hopefully discovering some more of my own!
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 Old 03-21-2016, 12:20 PM   #711
 
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So....
when ya'll gonna make the leap to SP?
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 Old 03-21-2016, 01:05 PM   #712
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
The car has a ferocity...
Having not even ridden in it and having only witnessed it from a course-worker's perspective, I'd say that's an excellent characterization.
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 Old 03-21-2016, 01:28 PM   #713
 
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Originally Posted by MS3johanna View Post
Yes. All of this. It's incredible. In a way that I didn't even know was missing. For the most part, I was too busy smiling ear to ear and hitting cones to remember how to drive well this weekend, but OMG this thing can take some major abuse. This stiffer bushings and sway bar are incredible. And that's not even on the Hoosiers yet!!!!!....... BUT, overall, I was much happier with the car before the extra camber adjustment. As I said in my last response, it was super aggressive, predictable, and tolerant on Saturday. .....It got a lot more oversteer-y at -2.5° and in my opinion, not in the best way.....
I think you have a good point, and good point of reference with the before and after handling. It's hard to imagine that both the front and rear needed the exact same change. We'll patiently wait for Dr Speed to report in.


.
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 Old 03-21-2016, 02:56 PM   #714
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Alright, let's start with Saturday.

With the pressures at 37psi all around (hot), the car was dancing around cones. It took minimal throttle-lift to get the back end coming around and it would plant and go with throttle application. It was doing everything we asked of it, and it was FAST. This is probably the fastest the car has ever been, and it was easily the most fun we'd ever had with it. I think we were both having fun hanging the back end out a bit too much at times just because we could, and that caused more than a few cones to get hit.

The -2.0° camber all around was giving us some hot outer shoulder temps on both the front and rear tires. The outside shoulders were wearing pretty heavily, too. The grip was incredible considering it was only 45° outside and the tires barely got any warmth. The car is more responsive than last season and there's no turn-in or corner-exit oversteer or understeer unless you ask for it.





For Sunday, I wanted to throw more negative camber at it because of the hotter outer shoulders and increased shoulder wear. I didn't really expect to pick up an even amount of grip front to back, but I thought throwing in an even amount of negative camber at both ends would help us dial it in more quickly.

Tire pressures started at 38/38 because I kind of had the feeling that 37psi might be too low from the day before. The car started out with some increased oversteer from the day prior, and it got a little unruly if you lifted too much. At one point I had the pressures at 39/37.5 front/rear and the car was massively oversteering. Johanna wanted to go back to 37/37 from the day prior, so we did and it cleaned up the oversteer quite a bit but it wasn't as easily controlled as Saturday. We ended at 37/36.5 front/rear, and that .5 psi decrease in the rear is where we both had our fastest times.

My interpretation of the tire pressures is that going from 39 to 37 in the front gave up some front grip to equalize front to rear, and it made the car totally manageable again. I think in the future I want to start a little higher in the front, around 41-42psi, and drop from there to see where it lands. The tire temperatures, taken at the end of the last run of the day, showed the inside of the tires both front and rear to be ~10° hotter than the outside.




Comparing the car both days at 37psi all around, but with different camber settings: The -2.0° day had the most easily controlled oversteer and was fast. The -2.5° day had more oversteer but overall I think we were faster with the extra negative camber. It seems to me -2.5° up front is closer to ideal than -2.5° in the rear. We really need to make a third change to see which direction 'ideal' lies.





Sunday's results. I took first in class and Johanna took 2nd in class. Results aren't up, so going from memory I think I had a 1.1s lead over Johanna, and she was ~0.5s ahead of 3rd place. She was mashing cones and had to put in a conservative run that was clean. I was 4th, overall, out of 65.






The biggest disappointment of the weekend was my gopro. We took video of every run, but every single file is coming up as corrupt. I reformatted the card Saturday night and took some test videos that were fine...And Sunday's files are showing as corrupt. Hopefully I can salvage some of it. Sunday's videos were shots of the tires so I could get a sense of how much wheel movement we had, and Saturday's videos were in the usual spot behind the driver. The courses were great and the rain held off.
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 Old 03-21-2016, 03:57 PM   #715
 
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Probably need to run -3* camber in the rear.
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 Old 03-21-2016, 06:25 PM   #716
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Sundays videos turned out to be fine! They aren't very exciting, but at least we got something. Saturdays...not so much.


I mash lots of cones in run 2, Johanna gets some drift action in the sweeper of her 3rd run.




Check out rear camber in this one. I think you can actually see camber loss during cornering due to bushing deflection! Major drift action in my 4th run.





Johanna getting the car way loose in her 5th, me mashing more cones.
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 Old 03-21-2016, 08:36 PM   #717
 
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I'm sure it's just an illusion, but from angle 3 it looks like the right rear tire gets a little air sometimes, like just before Johanna decided to change directions by 180 degrees. It's likely just the exposed portion of the tire, with what's not seen still in contact with the track ... a camber thing..

Great videos showing more wheel vertical motion than expected. Great prep work too.


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 Old 03-22-2016, 06:07 PM   #718
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Alright, I needed to go back and assess what happened with the stiffness bias due to running the RS3's versus the car being set up for Hoosiers. This is a comparison of my last setup at the end of last season, a target setup for this season targeting the same stiffness bias as previous season, and the actual bias we had for this past weekend.


^High res version attached



So you can see that the actual bias is closer to 'neutral' than what I was targeting by ~1.14%. The difference in rear bar settings is just because when I was walking from the house to the garage the number in my head said 126...oh well.

In any case, we unexpectedly had more rear bias than we've ever had and it worked. It worked and the car was fast. It was so easy to effect oversteer with the car this weekend that it makes sense that we're this close to the neutral steer point. Progress!






Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I'm sure it's just an illusion, but from angle 3 it looks like the right rear tire gets a little air sometimes, like just before Johanna decided to change directions by 180 degrees. It's likely just the exposed portion of the tire, with what's not seen still in contact with the track ... a camber thing..

Great videos showing more wheel vertical motion than expected. Great prep work too.


.
It could be picking up a rear wheel without us noticing because of the LSD in the rear axle.
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File Type: jpg Bias Comparison.jpg (230.0 KB, 21 views)
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 Old 03-22-2016, 06:47 PM   #719
 
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Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 View Post
So....
when ya'll gonna make the leap to SP?
Jeez- way to derp that up Eric....

I meant SM- Street Mod

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 Old 03-24-2016, 02:35 PM   #720
 
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Originally Posted by MS3johanna View Post
Yes. All of this. It's incredible. ...... This stiffer bushings and sway bar are incredible. And that's not even on the Hoosiers yet!!!!!
We first talked about that front bar in the fall of 2014:
Originally Posted by KevinK2
I forgot what front bar you went with, but increased front roll stiffness wll result in quicker turn in, and less roll to prevent the rear inside wheel from lifting. The chassis is stiff enough to assume the front roll angle is equal to the rear roll angle. I know Steeda has a 26mm front bar .....
But at that time it would take extreme rear springs to balance the car, without Phate's custom rear bar, that someone bugged him to do. He also fixed some severely worn Whiteline suspension bushings before these runs.

That was some excellent video work to capture the tire motion!


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