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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


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 Old 03-29-2016, 09:04 AM   #721
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Learned some things last weekend...two weekends ago at the first autocross the car was fast, but we had some pretty atrocious front tire wear. We didn't realize it at the time and didn't rotate front to rear on the second day, either. We drove up on the RS3's (as opposed to all-seasons) which is ~400 miles round trip, which is more likely where the wear came from...

After getting the car back on all-seasons, I thought the car looked toe-out. I checked bushings last weekend and everything is totally solid. That left us looking for reasons toe might change. Simply enough, the adjustable ball joints in the UCA up front have LOTS of cross talk with toe - something I'd never measured before. I had assumed it was negligible...so I had the car aligned to 0° toe in the front end at max negative camber. For the drive, I went from max negative camber to -1.2° all around. Anyway, you get the idea, so we measured the cross talk:

For every 1° of negative camber added (going more negative), there is a corresponding toe change on that side of 0.4° toe-in


So on Saturday, where we were running -2.0° camber in the front end, we had ~0.64° toe-out...and Sunday where we were running -2.5° camber it was ~0.24° toe-out...but the worst was highway driving at ~1.28° toe-out...ouch, it probably would have worn less if I had just left it at max negative camber.



So I need to be able to correct for that if I'm making changes on site. I measured how much toe change there is per turn of the tie rod - it is 0.55° per 1 revolution.


On the plus side of this, I now know why the car never really responded to simply adding more negative camber during an autocross. It always went way toe-in! It also tells me that the car responds to toe-out in the front end really well. The car felt incredible
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 Old 03-29-2016, 10:32 AM   #722
 
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I had wondered about cross-talk when you made the camber change there, but only cross-talk with caster. I had thought toe would be ok, but I was remembering your toe did not change much with stroke at ride height, instead of what happened with camber change. "zero for two"

What class do you race, and is there any potential to run at the Nationals?


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 Old 04-03-2016, 01:56 PM   #723
 
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yup... gotta always remember boys... camber and caster effect toe... and Toe doesnt effect camber or caster.... Its why when u do an alignment u set camber and caster first then do toe and steering wheel alignment last.
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 Old 04-04-2016, 11:49 AM   #724
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lol
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 Old 04-04-2016, 11:54 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
yup... gotta always remember boys... camber and caster effect toe... and Toe doesnt effect camber or caster.... Its why when u do an alignment u set camber and caster first then do toe and steering wheel alignment last.
Don't think I would consider that a 'general rule', because it definitely isn't true for the MS6 or MS3.
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 Old 04-04-2016, 12:14 PM   #726
 
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
gotta always remember boys... camber and caster effect toe... and Toe doesnt effect camber or caster....
what?
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 Old 04-04-2016, 12:19 PM   #727
 
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every car ive ever done an aligment on, on an aligment rack... when u adjust camber or caster u affect the toe... but when u adjust toe it doesnt affect camber or caster.. just my exp.. i havent specifically done an alignment for an ms6 or 3 but id assume it'd be similar
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 Old 04-04-2016, 12:40 PM   #728
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I was actually more interested in hearing about this steerring wheel alignment you speak of - after setting toe. Or do you mean the inverse?
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 Old 04-04-2016, 12:57 PM   #729

 
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
I was actually more interested in hearing about this steerring wheel alignment you speak of - after setting toe. Or do you mean the inverse?
1. Set camber
2. Set caster
3. Set toe
4. Center steering wheel
4A. See 1

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 Old 04-04-2016, 01:22 PM   #730
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No.
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 Old 04-04-2016, 01:26 PM   #731

 
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
No.
Didn't lay the sarcasm on thick enough for you? Or do you just not like being stuck in a fail loop?
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 Old 04-04-2016, 04:57 PM   #732
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Don't think I would consider that a 'general rule', because it definitely isn't true for the MS6 or MS3.
Any racing last weekend?


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 Old 04-04-2016, 05:03 PM   #733
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Any racing last weekend?


.
Yep, putting together the videos with data overlay now. Should have everything uploaded tonight.

In the meantime, here's some of my bad driving from yesterday.

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 Old 04-04-2016, 07:20 PM   #734
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Here's the good stuff:



This isn't our normal venue, and it's on asphalt. Still on the Hankook RS3V2's. I wanted to get the car out on them on this site because Johanna is doing Evolution Driving School on this site in my car with the Kooks, and I don't want the car to be a distraction.

Quite a bit less grip than our usual concrete, but the accelerometer is showing sustained cornering at a little over 1g and braking at ~0.9g. More about brakes later. I took first in class (ESP, btw) and Johanna took second in class. Not our usual competition, so I don't know how we stack up in the grand scheme of things. Complete results aren't up yet, I just nabbed a picture of class results before we left.

Referring back to this post for behavior comparisons. With this event being on asphalt, I expected to not need as much negative camber as concrete requires, but I thought we would still need a decent amount in the rear considering what we saw on concrete at the last event.

Camber: -2.0/-2.5° Front/Rear
Toe: ~0.2/0.0° out Front/Rear (total)
Final Hot Pressures: 38/36.4 psi Front/Rear nominal (rears cooled to 36.0 for the last couple runs)
Springs and bars went untouched from last event

With all that said, the car still needs more negative camber in the rear. The outer shoulders were hotter by upwards of 20°F and we were looking for rear grip from the start. The blooper reel shows this a little bit The front tires' heat gradient was pretty even, but I think we could have more grip with lower pressure (which might need a slight bump in camber). At some point I had the fronts a little lower and the car was too loose so I let them climb in pressure with the heat to 38 psi. I think the stock-like Orange poly in the rear control arms is hurting us a little bit, as well as the UCA's soft rubber bushing on the inside (the one I couldn't change). I'm going to email the bushing company to see if I can get some harder bushings made. I also want to stick a camera down there to see if I can actually see them deflecting any significant amount.


Brakes. I'm changing things up. The current setup - yellows up front, carbotech XP8 or 10 in the rear - has a bit too much initial bite and high enough friction levels that it's making the brakes touchy and a little hard to modulate. The suspension reacts so quickly that we don't need the brakes to exaggerate input, so I'm moving to something that will hopefully be more forgiving. I've been thinking about doing this for quite a while, but wanted to wait until the pads were worn out.

I put some Hawk HPS 5.0 in the rears on Saturday with fresh rotors. I did the prescribed bedding process, but the pads weren't using the entire rotor annulus yet on Sunday morning with only a few miles on them. I'm getting a set of used Hawk HPS (not the 5.0) for the front to test out the combo. I HATED these pads in the past because they lacked bite and high friction, but I'm hoping it's the cure for my current woes. Both Johanna and I have had troubles locking up tires getting into the brakes too quickly, and I think it makes both of us a little hesitant at times, which in turn makes us slower. I've had a couple of the fast folks drive my car in 'fun runs' and the brakes have been the only complaint I've heard, and it's from every one of them.

Overall, though, once we figured out tire pressures the car was behaving nicely. I smoothed out the throttle a BUNCH last week. I was using OTS throttle mapping from VT and it had two abrupt changes that translated to jerky throttle input. Much better this time around. Easy to get the back end rotating with a slight lift.

I'm working with the guys at VersaTune to get some throttle issues sorted out. I've started a thread over here: SWAS issues I tested a slew of tables yesterday and they didn't fix it. You can see in the videos around 35s, coming out of the big left hander the pedal position is pegged and DBW Throttle % is reduced (it's actually getting into fuel cut). Hopefully we can solve that.

I almost forgot. We worked on the rear flares a little bit Saturday. They're on, but still need some heat gun work to get them flush all the way around. I think next weekend we'll be able to finish them up. Two weekends from now is another autocross, then the week after I'm heading to tail of the dragon.

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 Old 04-04-2016, 10:30 PM   #735
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
I almost forgot. We worked on the rear flares a little bit Saturday. They're on, but still need some heat gun work to get them flush all the way around. I think next weekend we'll be able to finish them up. Two weekends from now is another autocross, then the week after I'm heading to tail of the dragon.
Looking forward to seeing the fenders at ENM. Going to have them painted?

Hoping to catch a few more rides with you if you would oblige. Ill be more prepared this year and maybe my under titties won't sweat this time.

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 Old 04-05-2016, 05:49 AM   #736
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Originally Posted by ItsNox View Post
Looking forward to seeing the fenders at ENM. Going to have them painted?

Hoping to catch a few more rides with you if you would oblige. Ill be more prepared this year and maybe my under titties won't sweat this time.

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I doubt I paint them. I have a feeling they're going to get beat up by cones at autocross, so I don't want to invest the time. Sure thing on the rides.
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 Old 04-05-2016, 09:46 AM   #737
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Here's the good stuff: ..... I think next weekend we'll be able to finish them up. Two weekends from now is another autocross, then the week after I'm heading to tail of the dragon.
For those like me that did not know, the "Tail of the Dragon" is a famous, ~deadly, long and windy hill climb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16YnmJN0fc


.
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 Old 04-05-2016, 10:17 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
For those like me that did not know, the "Tail of the Dragon" is a famous, ~deadly, long and windy hill climb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16YnmJN0fc


.
In a beautiful part of the Appalachians! It's a public road, but there's a lot of crazies down there. We go for the company (epic nator meet) and the scenery, I don't risk the car or my wallet, haha.
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 Old 04-05-2016, 10:19 AM   #739
 
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looking at the glowing brake rotor, and knows phate's version of not risking is much higher than mine
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 Old 04-05-2016, 10:24 AM   #740
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Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 View Post
looking at the glowing brake rotor, and knows phate's version of not risking is much higher than mine
LOL. Something something...."not anymore..." The glowing rotor is from down there, but maybe not how you think. I was playing with left foot braking and got the brakes super hot not going terribly fast. Pulled into the motorcycle resort and didn't even know it, but some friends who were waiting there nabbed those pictures (which are really awesome).
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 Old 04-05-2016, 07:15 PM   #741
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
..... I think the stock-like Orange poly in the rear control arms is hurting us a little bit, as well as the UCA's soft rubber bushing on the inside (the one I couldn't change). I'm going to email the bushing company to see if I can get some harder bushings made. I also want to stick a camera down there to see if I can actually see them deflecting any significant amount .....
When you compare the front and back suspensions, the front strut and rear trailing arm take the moment from the two outer wheels when your in one of those 1G corners. The front moment has a tall moment arm, with the high upper control arm. But at the rear, the height between upper and lower lateral arms is much less, increasing the loads on those rear bushings, and causing more camber change for the same deflection, in a way similar to the MR^2 for the spring reaction.

So decreasing displacement at those bushings is the way to go, and the 70 durometer orange ones may have an 80 durometer blue option, as you noted. Even better would be designing narrow plastic bushings to be used in the toe link or lower arm, at least at one end. You'd have to run the numbers. Designing With DuPont Plastics, fwiw


.
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 Old 04-05-2016, 08:09 PM   #742
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
When you compare the front and back suspensions, the front strut and rear trailing arm take the moment from the two outer wheels when your in one of those 1G corners. The front moment has a tall moment arm, with the high upper control arm. But at the rear, the height between upper and lower lateral arms is much less, increasing the loads on those rear bushings, and causing more camber change for the same deflection, in a way similar to the MR^2 for the spring reaction.

So decreasing displacement at those bushings is the way to go, and the 70 durometer orange ones may have an 80 durometer blue option, as you noted. Even better would be designing narrow plastic bushings to be used in the toe link or lower arm, at least at one end. You'd have to run the numbers. Designing With DuPont Plastics, fwiw
.
I chatted with the polyurethan.ru folks a little bit earlier today. I have a request in to have the rear LCA and UCA bushings (part #'s 4-06-2792 and 3-06-694) made of a harder material.

The LCA and UCA take the brunt of the lateral load in a corner. I'm interested to hear back because the LCA and UCA bushings have pretty significant misalignment due to the changing angles between the trailing arm/hub assembly and the LCA.




Section of rules pertaining to bushings:

Suspension bushings may be replaced with bushings of any materials (except metal) as long as they fit in the original location. Offset bushings may be used. In a replacement bushing the amount of metal relative to the amount of non-metallic material may not be increased. This does not authorize a change in type of bushing (for example ball and socket replacing a cylindrical bushing) or use of a bushing with an angled hole whose direction differs from that of the original bushing. If the standard bushing accommodated multi-axis motion via compliance of the component material(s), the replacement bushing may not be changed to accommodate such motion via change in bushing type, for example to a spherical bearing or similar component involving internal moving parts. Pins or keys may be used to prevent the rotation of alternate bushings but may serve no other purpose than that of retaining the bushing in the desired position.
Edit: ^That is why I replaced the SPC's spherical bearing with a poly bushing.


I believe that leaves me with using something that has sufficient compliance for that misalignment or I risk binding the rear suspension.

Whiteline has bushings with voids that I presume takes care of this issue, at least partially.



A bushing that has different stiffness in the two planes would be ideal. Soft in the y-z plane, and stiff in the x-y plane (stiff along the axis drawn between control arm bushing centers, really). Axis system for reference. I'm wondering, if the Russian company can't or won't do harder bushings, if I can insert hard delrin or nylon pieces on either side of the inner steel bushing in the x-y plane. I have an extra set of used poly LCA bushings and LCA's I could test things on.
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 Old 04-06-2016, 11:39 AM   #743
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
I chatted with the polyurethan.ru folks a little bit earlier today. I have a request in to have the rear LCA and UCA bushings made of a harder material.

The LCA and UCA take the brunt of the lateral load in a corner. I'm interested to hear back because the LCA and UCA bushings have pretty significant misalignment due to the changing angles between the trailing arm/hub assembly and the LCA.
I agree that with vertical wheel motion, as the trailing arm rotates about the y axis from it's forward pivot, you get a twist about the same axis at both connections of the control arms to the trailing arm at the hub. There is also a small amount of x direction motion at these same connections to the hub. For the ~25" length to the lower control arm bushing, you get .02" forward motion at 1" drop from horizontal. So ignoring the toe-link for now, the control arm bushings at the hub need some x-direction (ie car fore aft) compliance, unless the trailing arm pivot can be kept soft enough to take this. And that leaves the unwanted rotation about the y-axis. If high durometer bushings are available, the cylindrical part of the OD that transfers load should be narrower than the orange soft version. For a custom plastic design, with inner collar, consider either a ~1/8" thk outer steel sleeve with a rubber isolater between it's od and the bore in the arm, or even a segment of reinforced heater/cooling hose, as a thin wall bushing.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that on my M6, the lower control arm two mounting points were not perpendicular to the centerline of the chassis, the inboard one is about 3/4" more toward the front. Based on the control arm ends being about 1/2" narrower than the openings they fit in, much of this offset could be eliminated, if the MS6 has the same offset.

Toe-Link

Although the M6 trailing arm with hub is one-piece stamped steel, vs the 2-piece MS6 with solid aluminum hub attached to a stamped steel forward trailing arm, the 7 pivot points seem to be about the same locations. I just inspected my rear ?, and one source of multi direction over-constraint seems to be the short toe link. It's inner pivot is fixed, but the instant center of the much longer upper and lower control arms changes with vertical movement, since the goal for those arms is to keep the hub vertical with proper camber compensation in a corner. So the axial loads in these 3 links will fight each other. Bottom line I think you have to keep soft bushings here if you stiffen the control arm bushings


Section of rules pertaining to bushings:

I believe that leaves me with using something that has sufficient compliance for that misalignment or I risk binding the rear suspension.

Whiteline has bushings with voids that I presume takes care of this issue, at least partially.

A bushing that has different stiffness in the two planes would be ideal. Soft in the y-z plane, and stiff in the x-y plane (stiff along the axis drawn between control arm bushing centers, really). I'm wondering, if the Russian company can't or won't do harder bushings, if I can insert hard delrin or nylon pieces on either side of the inner steel bushing in the x-y plane. I have an extra set of used poly LCA bushings and LCA's I could test things on.
Are you talking about stiff rings of plastic, fitted over the steel collar where it projects in the +/- x direction beyond the main poly bush? If so that would make the binding due to the trailing arm angle worse, if I understand correctly.

For the simple plastic bearing, similar to poly bushings, the plastic would have just a narrow section in the middle where the load is transferred ( as narrow as average contact stress allows), and figure for small wheel motions the misalignment will just round the edges. Of the two lateral control arms, the upper one just sees lateral loads, and that may be the best location to minimize lateral bushing flex (y-axis). The lower arm also supports the car.

I did make unidirectional stiff bushings for that old Triumph, with swing axles that take the full corner force and transfer it to the rear differential, soft mounted with vertical bolts. It was a simple matter of making thick nylon "washers" that were sandwiched in the bushing stack, and took the lateral load only.

I know you likely have thought of all this, but I figured I'd put it in text while thinking about it.


.
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 Old 04-06-2016, 03:50 PM   #744
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Stiffer bushings will not be available from polyurethan.ru, I heard back earlier today.




I need to rearrange your post a little bit

Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I agree that with vertical wheel motion, as the trailing arm rotates about the y axis from it's forward pivot, you get a twist about the same axis at both connections of the control arms to the trailing arm at the hub. There is also a small amount of x direction motion at these same connections to the hub. For the ~25" length to the lower control arm bushing, you get .02" forward motion at 1" drop from horizontal. So ignoring the toe-link for now, the control arm bushings at the hub need some x-direction (ie car fore aft) compliance, unless the trailing arm pivot can be kept soft enough to take this. And that leaves the unwanted rotation about the y-axis. If high durometer bushings are available, the cylindrical part of the OD that transfers load should be narrower than the orange soft version. For a custom plastic design, with inner collar, consider either a ~1/8" thk outer steel sleeve with a rubber isolater between it's od and the bore in the arm, or even a segment of reinforced heater/cooling hose, as a thin wall bushing.
Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Are you talking about stiff rings of plastic, fitted over the steel collar where it projects in the +/- x direction beyond the main poly bush? If so that would make the binding due to the trailing arm angle worse, if I understand correctly.

For the simple plastic bearing, similar to poly bushings, the plastic would have just a narrow section in the middle where the load is transferred ( as narrow as average contact stress allows), and figure for small wheel motions the misalignment will just round the edges. Of the two lateral control arms, the upper one just sees lateral loads, and that may be the best location to minimize lateral bushing flex (y-axis). The lower arm also supports the car.

I did make unidirectional stiff bushings for that old Triumph, with swing axles that take the full corner force and transfer it to the rear differential, soft mounted with vertical bolts. It was a simple matter of making thick nylon "washers" that were sandwiched in the bushing stack, and took the lateral load only.

I know you likely have thought of all this, but I figured I'd put it in text while thinking about it.
This is generally what I'm thinking of, and it's completely open to suggestions:



Forgot coordinates, so this would be a rearward, yz plane view. The lateral load would be normal to the red semi-circle flats. The orange represents polyurethane and the red represents a much harder material - delrin/nylon/pvc/etc. The vertical misalignment would be allowed in the same fashion as it is now - taken up by the poly. The inserts would need to be cylindrical, without any rounding, axially, to be in compliance with the rules (I think, arguably, it could be perceived as a ball and socket joint if they were rounded to allow for this z-axis rotation). The inserts might need pinned to prevent them from rotating in the receiver, but it's allowed and easily accomplished.

The ±y direction misalignment was my first concern with trying to stiffen that direction with something solid like delrin or nylon. Just based on the summed 2D geometry, this is what I come up with (high res version attached):



That's if we assume the pivot point is at the edge of the receiver, which would be worst case (I think). .03"...I'm thinking a thin layer of poly left over on the inner sleeve could take this up pretty easily. Kevin, or anyone else still left reading, do you think it would still need or be beneficial to have a layer of softer poly on the OD?






Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Toe-Link

Although the M6 trailing arm with hub is one-piece stamped steel, vs the 2-piece MS6 with solid aluminum hub attached to a stamped steel forward trailing arm, the 7 pivot points seem to be about the same locations. I just inspected my rear ?, and one source of multi direction over-constraint seems to be the short toe link. It's inner pivot is fixed, but the instant center of the much longer upper and lower control arms changes with vertical movement, since the goal for those arms is to keep the hub vertical with proper camber compensation in a corner. So the axial loads in these 3 links will fight each other. Bottom line I think you have to keep soft bushings here if you stiffen the control arm bushings
The toe link over-constraint is a fun one. Currently, I have stiffer bushings in this link for 'strategic deflection' of the trailing arm under load - just meaning with the softer LCA bushings, the trailing arm should be bending to give toe-out (or at least less toe-in) when subjected to cornering forces. Stiffer LCA bushings should lessen this affect, but if that gains camber control it will hopefully outweigh the benefits of this toe-out under load behavior. I will need to remeasure bump steer both before (because of the bushing changes) and after. Moving back to a softer bushing in the toe link would be easily accomplished.
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
For those like me that did not know, the "Tail of the Dragon" is a famous, ~deadly, long and windy hill climb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K16YnmJN0fc


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 Old 04-06-2016, 07:20 PM   #746
 
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Back at you tomorrow


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 Old 04-07-2016, 08:39 AM   #747
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Stiffer bushings will not be available from polyurethan.ru, I heard back earlier today.

Even if you told them you would buy the whole lot of 20 or so of the manufacturing run?
I guess they cannot just change the polyurethane in the hopper melter thing or however it works...oh well.
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 Old 04-07-2016, 10:43 AM   #748
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Kevin, or anyone else still left reading, do you think it would still need or be beneficial to have a layer of softer poly on the OD?
Just spitballing here, but I might be more worried about overall durability without some softer material on the OD (I'm just picturing that center area getting torn up more quickly and/or "falling out"/disintegrating without it), but I honestly don't know...

Are you thinking these will simply be press-fit or somehow bonded in another way?
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 Old 04-07-2016, 04:18 PM   #749
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Forgot coordinates, so this would be a rearward, yz plane view. The lateral load would be normal to the red semi-circle flats. The orange represents polyurethane and the red represents a much harder material - delrin/nylon/pvc/etc. The vertical misalignment would be allowed in the same fashion as it is now - taken up by the poly. The inserts would need to be cylindrical, without any rounding, axially, to be in compliance with the rules (I think, arguably, it could be perceived as a ball and socket joint if they were rounded to allow for this z-axis rotation).
First, I agree with your numbers.

So the semicircles in red are 2 hard pieces of plastic. As shown there would be concentrated stress on the flat closest to the steel collar, and possible yielding. The thin layer of poly would not last long, imho. You would also have to consider that the lower arm has the sprung weight loading the bushings in the vertical direction too.
EDIT: To elaborate, the softer orange part of the bushing is no longer bonded to the red parts, and that creates a pair of slip planes, that make the soft part more flexible in absorbing the .028" deflection along the 1.64" bushing length. But, with the lower arm, the weight bearing could wind up tearing the thin zones beside the center steel collar.

I would first exhaust all possible coaxial designs, before going with inserts and the related complications. You showed .028" across the bushing, due to a 2.81" drop from a neutral position with no trailing arm angle. But if you make 3 cylinders of say delrin, with only a 5/8" wide center ring pressed into the endlink bore, and the outer two clearanced at the OD acting as just spacers, then the delta is only .011", and may be able to be taken elastically if the Modulus is not too high. For example UHMW PE is considered a good bushing material, but it's modulus is 1/4 that of delrin. By using plastics vs polyurethane, you have much higher strengths to take advantage of.
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Stiffer bushings will not be available from polyurethan.ru, I heard back earlier today.
....... That's if we assume the pivot point is at the edge of the receiver, which would be worst case (I think). .03"...I'm thinking a thin layer of poly left over on the inner sleeve could take this up pretty easily. Kevin, or anyone else still left reading, do you think it would still need or be beneficial to have a layer of softer poly on the OD? .......
Not sure of what you have in mind. Is this a layer of orange poly left on the steel collar, with the whiteline bushing pressed over it, and ..... ?

The toe link over-constraint is a fun one. Currently, I have stiffer bushings in this link for 'strategic deflection' of the trailing arm under load - just meaning with the softer LCA bushings, the trailing arm should be bending to give toe-out (or at least less toe-in) when subjected to cornering forces.
But as far as the trailing arm "stratigicaly" bending at the toe link, it does not look like it was designed to flex (I think the trailing arms on my prior Porsche(/VW) 924T had flat plate trailing arms designed to flex a bit). That's what all those soft oem bushings are for.



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 Old 04-08-2016, 07:11 AM   #750
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
I've had a very minor clunk in the front end for a short while, now. I thought it was just the rod ended sway bar links doing their thing, so I wasn't too worried about it. Last week it got a little worse so I thought I better check it out. Turns out the steering gear (32-119E in the diagram) has some radial play.


So I thought I had a bad tie rod or something and just have not had time to troubleshoot. I replaced inner tie rod where I felt clunk from but the old one seemed fine and still have same issue. Outer tie rod seemed fine and I didnt have a replacement on hand. Now if rack was bad why is the clunk only on the DS? If I pull down or push up on the tie rod down while steering wheel is jerked back and forth to the clunk dulls. Doesn't seem to to be a bushings as rack is not moving but its hard to get hands up there and car was only up on ramps so not much room. When I had it up last time it was on jack stands and it would not make the noise but I could feel it in the tie rod which is why I replaced. Would seem like a bad upper BJ in upper control as it only make the noise when the front end is loaded arm but its not.
Sorry wrong thread for this but just need to figure this out today so I can go buy rack today and replace tonight.

Edit,
Is the radial play of the steering gear that you had basically that the shaft was loose in the housing causing the clunk? As thats what it seems like I have.

TIA
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 Old 04-08-2016, 08:06 AM   #751
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I'll come back to the bushings later. Going to shift my front subframe today to get rid of cross camber. There was 0.8° difference between the sides when both were max negative. 2.5/3.3, so I'm hoping to see an even 2.8-2.9° available with the shift. I'll also twist the upper eccentrics for max negative which should net another 0.5° on each side. If the Hoosiers need more than that, I'll have to get a little creative.

Originally Posted by aviator79 View Post
So I thought I had a bad tie rod or something and just have not had time to troubleshoot. I replaced inner tie rod where I felt clunk from but the old one seemed fine and still have same issue. Outer tie rod seemed fine and I didnt have a replacement on hand. Now if rack was bad why is the clunk only on the DS? If I pull down or push up on the tie rod down while steering wheel is jerked back and forth to the clunk dulls. Doesn't seem to to be a bushings as rack is not moving but its hard to get hands up there and car was only up on ramps so not much room. When I had it up last time it was on jack stands and it would not make the noise but I could feel it in the tie rod which is why I replaced. Would seem like a bad upper BJ in upper control as it only make the noise when the front end is loaded arm but its not.
Sorry wrong thread for this but just need to figure this out today so I can go buy rack today and replace tonight.

TIA
Sounds just like when mine went bad.
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 Old 04-08-2016, 08:18 AM   #752
 
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Originally Posted by aviator79 View Post
..... Now if rack was bad why is the clunk only on the DS? If I pull down or push up on the tie rod down while steering wheel is jerked back and forth to the clunk dulls .....
Edit,
Is the radial play of the steering gear that you had basically that the shaft was loose in the housing causing the clunk? As thats what it seems like I have.
TIA
I think you are correct. What you described is a worn rack housing on driver side. Don't think there is a replaceable bushing, based on illustration, but Phate was in there and would know better. When you found the clunk was dulled while moving steering wheel back and forth, that is because you load the rack against the pinion gear, and that pushed the rack against the housing bore.

Not likely affecting performance.

note: I did replace the rack and inner joints on that old Triumph, after I lost it on black ice, and got a lateral punch load on a front wheel that bowed the rack.





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 Old 04-08-2016, 08:24 AM   #753
 
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Not likely affecting performance.



.
Probably not but I am not selling the car with it clunking. Heading to pick one up now.
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 Old 04-08-2016, 08:44 AM   #754

 
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Sorry for the minor thread jack, Phate.

I got some Russian bushings. They've been on the car for a bit. I want some more. Shipping is expensive, so I'd rather split it. If anyone wants some of the bushings that Phate is talking up in here, and you're interested in splitting shipping cost, shoot me a PM.

Please don't clutter up the thread with stuff about the logistics, cost, and such. I'll answer those questions in PM.
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 Old 04-08-2016, 09:04 AM   #755
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Going to shift my front subframe today
Did you ever look if it is possible to elongate the subframe holes for less caster, an 1/8" or so?
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 Old 04-08-2016, 09:27 AM   #756
 
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Did you ever look if it is possible to elongate the subframe holes for less camber, an 1/8" or so?
You mean caster?
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 Old 04-08-2016, 09:41 AM   #757
 
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Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 View Post
You mean caster?
Duh, fixed.
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 Old 04-08-2016, 10:54 AM   #758
 
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
... But as far as the trailing arm "stratigicaly" bending at the toe link, it does not look like it was designed to flex (I think the trailing arms on my prior Porsche(/VW) 924T had flat plate trailing arms designed to flex a bit). That's what all those soft oem bushings are for.
Rather than a calculation, it would be informative to remove a bolt from one end of a toe-link, and one from the bottom of the shock, pull the spring and exercise the 3 link, 5 joint suspension, and see how much misalignment occurs at the toe-link - both lateral and angular. The suspension w/o the toe-link would not be over-constrained, assuming pinned joints.

With my stock bushings in the M6 rear suspension that is geometrically the same as the MS6 arm, with 40K miles, I can see the toe-link bushings have a lot of cracks in the exposed rubber, and when I used a big screwdriver as a wedge to try to flex each of the 7 bushings, there was very little if any bushing deflection ( except at the front of the trailing arm) , all due to the over constraint and related preload at each joint.

At this point, I wonder if you could just take the Orange type bushing, machine the od down, and perhaps make it narrower, and add a filament wound epoxy sleeve, press fitted at ID and OD, thus not adding steel volume to the bearing. So you stiffen the orange bushings in the control arm by decreasing wall thickness. There are commercial, multilayer sleeve/plain bearings that are made from filament wound FRP tubing, with a layer of bearing material on the ID, for normal hinge joints or shaft bearings.



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 Old 04-11-2016, 11:43 AM   #759
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Anyone here install the CS rear brace? Any noticeable difference in handling?
Thinking about getting one. But I am always suspicious of braces and other chassis stiffening thingeys.
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
Anyone here install the CS rear brace? Any noticeable difference in handling?
Thinking about getting one. But I am always suspicious of braces and other chassis stiffening thingeys.
i have the SU one from way back before they were complete garbage and changed to SURE, but i have not installed it yet or tested it... looks like a nice piece and from my research it does have some stiffening abilities.... I also have CS front strut tower bar and GT spec ladder brace as well... (all not installed or tested yet, but i can let u know when the cars running how they feel compared to stock)
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In progress:
Engine: Built long block by Keefover. Keyed crank,keyed cams/VVT,Crower 65lb valve springs,Wiseco pistons,Manley H beam rods,AFI t3 stock location mani,Comp turbo CT4x 53-56,Kozmic 6th port PI with 2200cc bosch injectors,N2MB WOT box,Relentless ported intake mani,Kozmic oil feed line,Custom oil return line,Ramfab 3.5" intake,Ramfab alum. crash bar,Ramfab IC piping,TR10 IC,Saiko Michi and JBR dual custom catch can setup, Guardian angel v3 with 4bar map sensor,Dual Deatschwerks in-tank fuel hat with bigger pickup,-6an nylon braided fuel lines,Fuel labs FPR,SP63 3 port EBCS,Mishimoto oil cooler, HKS SSQV1,BSD,Autotech FP internals,CPE injector seals EGR delete,TB coolant bypass delete,M2 Ebay DP
Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
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LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f12/mazdaspeed-6-suspension-data-diy-bilstein-coilovers-161806/
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Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 50 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum Post #48 Pingback 03-14-2014 12:36 PM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 46 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 01-20-2014 11:02 AM

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