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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


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 Old 04-11-2016, 04:40 PM   #761
 
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I installed CS front and rear brace/bar and I didn't feel any difference at all. I was on stock suspension though so maybe someone with a lowered car would feel more of a difference.

IMO it's a waste of cash unless you've already upgraded everything related to handling
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 Old 04-11-2016, 06:43 PM   #762
 
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
Anyone here install the CS rear brace? Any noticeable difference in handling?
Thinking about getting one. But I am always suspicious of braces and other chassis stiffening thingeys.
Suspicious for a good reason. When I see a front strut brace for my M6 or a MS6, it's hard to see how it can be effective when the strut tops are in the corner triangulated with the firewall structure:
Front Strut Brace

On the Rx7 I tracked, the shock tops (upper & lower A-arms) are a good 14" from the firewall, and the R model came oem with those struts. When I put them on my model, I left one end barely tight and smeared grease there to see if there was relative motion to be eliminated with the brace. After some 2X exit ramps, I saw about 3/8" motion. Good way to quantitatively test effectiveness.


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 Old 04-11-2016, 11:10 PM   #763
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Yeah ok thanks that's what I thought.
Fuck all those braces.
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 Old 04-12-2016, 07:14 AM   #764
 
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I didn't mean to suggest that. Some braces may be effective, I questioned one type. You have to test for relative motion to be sure, thed sell the brace if it's useless. Mazda usually puts reinforcement bars where needed.

Here is an example of a few questionable reinforcement bars from a company called Showoff Imports (they do sell many other products from reputable vendors):
Showoff Imports.nl Mazda6 Braces

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 Old 04-12-2016, 08:02 AM   #765
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I agree that with vertical wheel motion, as the trailing arm rotates about the y axis from it's forward pivot, you get a twist about the same axis at both connections of the control arms to the trailing arm at the hub. There is also a small amount of x direction motion at these same connections to the hub. For the ~25" length to the lower control arm bushing, you get .02" forward motion at 1" drop from horizontal. So ignoring the toe-link for now, the control arm bushings at the hub need some x-direction (ie car fore aft) compliance, unless the trailing arm pivot can be kept soft enough to take this. And that leaves the unwanted rotation about the y-axis. If high durometer bushings are available, the cylindrical part of the OD that transfers load should be narrower than the orange soft version. For a custom plastic design, with inner collar, consider either a ~1/8" thk outer steel sleeve with a rubber isolater between it's od and the bore in the arm, or even a segment of reinforced heater/cooling hose, as a thin wall bushing.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that on my M6, the lower control arm two mounting points were not perpendicular to the centerline of the chassis, the inboard one is about 3/4" more toward the front. Based on the control arm ends being about 1/2" narrower than the openings they fit in, much of this offset could be eliminated, if the MS6 has the same offset.

Toe-Link

Although the M6 trailing arm with hub is one-piece stamped steel, vs the 2-piece MS6 with solid aluminum hub attached to a stamped steel forward trailing arm, the 7 pivot points seem to be about the same locations. I just inspected my rear ?, and one source of multi direction over-constraint seems to be the short toe link. It's inner pivot is fixed, but the instant center of the much longer upper and lower control arms changes with vertical movement, since the goal for those arms is to keep the hub vertical with proper camber compensation in a corner. So the axial loads in these 3 links will fight each other. Bottom line I think you have to keep soft bushings here if you stiffen the control arm bushings




Are you talking about stiff rings of plastic, fitted over the steel collar where it projects in the +/- x direction beyond the main poly bush? If so that would make the binding due to the trailing arm angle worse, if I understand correctly.

For the simple plastic bearing, similar to poly bushings, the plastic would have just a narrow section in the middle where the load is transferred ( as narrow as average contact stress allows), and figure for small wheel motions the misalignment will just round the edges. Of the two lateral control arms, the upper one just sees lateral loads, and that may be the best location to minimize lateral bushing flex (y-axis). The lower arm also supports the car.

I did make unidirectional stiff bushings for that old Triumph, with swing axles that take the full corner force and transfer it to the rear differential, soft mounted with vertical bolts. It was a simple matter of making thick nylon "washers" that were sandwiched in the bushing stack, and took the lateral load only.

I know you likely have thought of all this, but I figured I'd put it in text while thinking about it.


.
Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
First, I agree with your numbers.

So the semicircles in red are 2 hard pieces of plastic. As shown there would be concentrated stress on the flat closest to the steel collar, and possible yielding. The thin layer of poly would not last long, imho. You would also have to consider that the lower arm has the sprung weight loading the bushings in the vertical direction too.
EDIT: To elaborate, the softer orange part of the bushing is no longer bonded to the red parts, and that creates a pair of slip planes, that make the soft part more flexible in absorbing the .028" deflection along the 1.64" bushing length. But, with the lower arm, the weight bearing could wind up tearing the thin zones beside the center steel collar.

I would first exhaust all possible coaxial designs, before going with inserts and the related complications. You showed .028" across the bushing, due to a 2.81" drop from a neutral position with no trailing arm angle. But if you make 3 cylinders of say delrin, with only a 5/8" wide center ring pressed into the endlink bore, and the outer two clearanced at the OD acting as just spacers, then the delta is only .011", and may be able to be taken elastically if the Modulus is not too high. For example UHMW PE is considered a good bushing material, but it's modulus is 1/4 that of delrin. By using plastics vs polyurethane, you have much higher strengths to take advantage of.
Comparison Table for Plastics.




Not sure of what you have in mind. Is this a layer of orange poly left on the steel collar, with the whiteline bushing pressed over it, and ..... ?
Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
At this point, I wonder if you could just take the Orange type bushing, machine the od down, and perhaps make it narrower, and add a filament wound epoxy sleeve, press fitted at ID and OD, thus not adding steel volume to the bearing. So you stiffen the orange bushings in the control arm by decreasing wall thickness. There are commercial, multilayer sleeve/plain bearings that are made from filament wound FRP tubing, with a layer of bearing material on the ID, for normal hinge joints or shaft bearings.



.
I checked the control arm pickup points on the rear hubs so I could get an idea of the forces we're dealing with. LCA is ~9.5" from the ground, and the UCA is ~8.5" above that. For a 1.5g cornering force and 700lb corner weight for a rear tire, there is approximately a 2,000 lb compressive force applied to the LCA, and 1,000 lb tensile force through the UCA.

The contact stress (Hertzian stress) is too high to have the plastic insert sit directly against the inner steel bush, so a softer material in-between would be necessary to spread the load. I think having multiple concentric rings could be considered as "internal moving parts", which would not be allowed under that bushing rule...I don't find anyone else trying to do similar things to what we're discussing, so who knows.

I like your idea of simply decreasing the OD of the bushing receiver and machining the bushing to a smaller diameter. One thing about these orange bushings is that they are bonded to the inner steel bush, so the twist of the inner bush is transferred to the poly. If I'm having to machine the bushing down, I think starting with the larger diameter toe link (green bushing 4-06-127) would be better - it has a floating center and we already know it is compliant enough for the angular deflection between control arm and trailing arm. That, in itself, might be an acceptable solution without having to add hard inserts.

The UCA bushing diameters in the SPC arms are different than stock. I'll have to measure those this weekend and see if anything is available.

I think I want to build a simple test rig I can use in my press to test bushing stiffness (similar to tire and spring testing, but bushings need a fixture). I have extra orange LCA bushings, but not any toe-link bushings. I'll have to get a few of them ordered.

Agreed on testing bump steer in the rear suspension with and without the toe link. All of this is probably a next month project.
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 Old 04-16-2016, 02:15 PM   #766
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
....
The contact stress (Hertzian stress) is too high to have the plastic insert sit directly against the inner steel bush, so a softer material in-between would be necessary to spread the load. I think having multiple concentric rings could be considered as "internal moving parts", which would not be allowed under that bushing rule...I don't find anyone else trying to do similar things to what we're discussing, so who knows.
I had envisioned a press fit on the inner (steel) collar, with the clearance at the narrowed OD of the plastic bearing material. So making the bushing in one piece would spread the load at the ID, and reduce the stress when 3 separate rings are used. But I had said the angle from the trailing arm would be taken in the elastic range of the plastic. Even ignoring that angle, I'm still in trouble with the hertz stress at the 5/8" wide central raised OD, as you found with the case for an ID clearance. But, for pivot bushing like this, it is more common to use an allowable PV value based on projected area of contact. So you go to the curves for the material assuming the velocity is low, and read the allowable stress off the x axis of the plot (ref: prior link to designing with plastics).

Bottom line is this one you would have to test with the spare hardware you noted, and expect to be in the plastic range of the bearing material.



Originally Posted by phate View Post
I like your idea of simply decreasing the OD of the bushing receiver and machining the bushing to a smaller diameter. One thing about these orange bushings is that they are bonded to the inner steel bush, so the twist of the inner bush is transferred to the poly.

If I'm having to machine the bushing down, I think starting with the larger diameter toe link (green bushing 4-06-127) would be better - it has a floating center and we already know it is compliant enough for the angular deflection between control arm and trailing arm. That, in itself, might be an acceptable solution without having to add hard inserts.
Keep in mind that by effectively reducing the existing sized bushing OD, it will be stiffer as it handles the trailing arm angle. May need to narrow it also, to retain that flexibility.

Originally Posted by phate View Post
The UCA bushing diameters in the SPC arms are different than stock. I'll have to measure those this weekend and see if anything is available.

I think I want to build a simple test rig I can use in my press to test bushing stiffness (similar to tire and spring testing, but bushings need a fixture). I have extra orange LCA bushings, but not any toe-link bushings. I'll have to get a few of them ordered.

Agreed on testing bump steer in the rear suspension with and without the toe link. All of this is probably a next month project.
My concern was not to break the rules, in particular the one that says the ratio of metal to elastic parts in the new bushing must be the same as the original. My original thought was to reduce the OD of the bushing for increased stiffness, and use a filament wound fiberglass tube piece to press into the bore to take up the space. You are doing something similar, by taking and over-sized toe-link bushing and reducing the OD, but then go a step further using the stiffer material.

This company in Russia seems to encourage lubrication for their poly bushings that rotate on a fixed steel tube/collar.
Silent Blocks with a Press Fit inner steel tube.



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 Old 04-16-2016, 06:09 PM   #767
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Thanks, those bushings are probably next on my list. We're back at it tomorrow and we just finished prepping everything.

Shifting the subframe to correct the cross camber worked. The upper eccentrics netted another -0.5° camber on each side, also. Right now the minimum camber I have in the front end is -1.7°, and the maximum is -3.9° with the upper ball joints maxed out. Hoosiers will be on tomorrow, and I have the car set at -3.5°/-4.0° camber front/rear and 0 toe all around.

Accelerometer is packed and ready, and I have a go pro mount set up to capture the bushing deflection of the rear LCA. Hopefully there's enough light to see things under the car. Anxious to get out with them.
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 Old 04-17-2016, 08:19 AM   #768
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
..... Hoosiers will be on tomorrow, and I have the car set at -3.5°/-4.0° camber front/rear and 0 toe all around.

Accelerometer is packed and ready, and I have a go pro mount set up to capture the bushing deflection of the rear LCA ......
Good luck today, and hope for warm weather, for the Hoosiers.

I assume those green rims have 25mm offset, the Enkei's 38mm, and oem 55 mm. That puts the nominal track width with the Hoosiers at almost 2-1/2" more than stock, and 1-1/3" more than the Hankook's you used last race. I increased the track width by 2" in the rear only (mistake) on the Triumph (narrower track to start with) and on the 1st hot lap at Summit Point, I under-steered so badly almost drove off the track on turn 1. Serious toolbox activity followed to complete the runs.

As you know the only way to reduce total weight transfer for say a 1G corner, is to reduce the CG height, or increase the track. So I'd expect more grip for several reasons.

I meant to compliment you on your excellent video display to date, and look forward to the suspension cam.


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 Old 04-18-2016, 10:58 AM   #769
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Yesterday was a real eye opener as to what the car is capable of, especially after working through the accelerometer data. I was the only one driving the car, Johanna was driving her MS3. It was fun, there was a lot of downtime between runs so I had a chance to play with tire pressures and get a feel for where they need to be. I had them as low as 39/37 front/rear and as high as 45/43, with the lower pressures feeling a little better. 2psi difference between front and rear was a bit too much oversteer, and 3psi difference felt great. When the car was in its sweet spot, the grip was immense, I just need to work on getting it there more consistently.

The downtime between runs was great for checking things out, but the tires cooled off a TON between runs. I was coming in with them around 140°F, and I checked them right before some of my runs and they around 100°. I could really feel them "come on" after the first couple inputs, and that lack of heat at the beginning caused me some troubles at the beginning of runs. Hoosier's recommended range is 110-140°. With Johanna co-driving, it shouldn't be an issue and we'll likely need to spray them for cooling between runs.

The surface seemed to be a little less grippy than the last asphalt surface we were on, looking at other cars out there. It's near a gravel pit, so there's a very fine gravel across a lot of the surface that gets somewhat cleaned off in the first couple run groups. Luckily, I ran in the last heat so it was mostly cleaned off. In terms of feel, the car feels softer on the Hoosiers than on the Hankooks. Likely due to having a slightly stretched 255 on a 9.5" wheel versus the 275 on a 9.75" wheel. I feel like I wasn't braking as hard as I could have been - likely due to the new Hawk pads that are less aggressive. I had a couple occasions braking at just over 1g, but it was mostly around .85g decel. It'll take a couple events to get used to everything and start pushing it closer to its overall potential.



Sustained 1.2g lateral was common, and there were brief periods of 1.25g. I knew the grip was up, but it didn't really hit me until I had a smaller passenger getting thrown around like a rag doll through the slalom (ha!). I was really distracted after that, hahaha. New seats next year, hopefully. This wasn't my fastest run due to cones, but scratch time was similar:


Out of 136 drivers, I was 7th overall, and 5th fastest door car (1 & 2 were shifter karts) being 0.666s behind the fastest door car.

The car needs more negative camber! Heat gradient across the tires (front and rear) for nearly every run was even with a slight bias towards the outside shoulders being a few degrees hotter. I'll probably try somewhere around -4.0/-4.5° front/rear next time on asphalt, and I'm betting we'll need something around -5° or slightly above on much grippier concrete.





Rear suspension videos aren't as helpful as I would have liked. It seems like the mount may have been flexing a little bit so I can't say for sure how much bushing deflection there is just from the videos. I may work on a more secure mount for a second try at this. I had it mounted to the subframe, above the seam where the LCA receiver box is:




Still a neat perspective, but nothing conclusive:

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 Old 04-18-2016, 11:19 AM   #770
 
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I almost got a heart attack, so let's clarify

Originally Posted by phate View Post
Hoosier's recommended range for autocross is 110-140
and the recommended range for road racing is 180-200.

Do you have data on oil pressure? I wonder if at some point you will run into oil starvation issues with 1.2g lateral forces, but my guess is in your case these periods are too short, on a road racing course you could have a long sweeper that could potentially lead to oil starvation (happens on Evos for sure).
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 Old 04-18-2016, 11:25 AM   #771

 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post

Sustained 1.2g lateral was common, and there were brief periods of 1.25g. I knew the grip was up, but it didn't really hit me until I had a smaller passenger getting thrown around like a rag doll through the slalom (ha!). I was really distracted after that, hahaha. New seats next year, hopefully. This wasn't my fastest run due to cones, but scratch time was similar:
In before phate breaks physics.

Please don't get us knocked out of ESP before we get to nationals.
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 Old 04-18-2016, 11:56 AM   #772
 
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That rear LCA sure looks like it is flexing all about but does it actually affect the suspension geometry?
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 Old 04-18-2016, 01:13 PM   #773
 
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Default MS6 Suspension Data &amp; DIY Bilstein Coilovers

I see flares, we require more pics
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 Old 04-18-2016, 01:57 PM   #774
 
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Originally Posted by aviator
That rear LCA sure looks like it is flexing all about but does it actually affect the suspension geometry?
By Aviator: "That rear LCA sure looks like it is flexing all about but does it actually affect the suspension geometry?"

It looks to me like it's 95+% just swinging like a control arm should. Hard to see 2 - 3 mm of bushing flex. But I could see using a thin plate with an arc relative to the center of the pivot, tacked onto the frame plate, and marking an arc with an extra mm in radius on the control arm side. With same camera angle as the 2nd half of the video, you would see a constant 1mm gap, except when the bushing compresses.


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 Old 04-18-2016, 02:07 PM   #775
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
......
Rear suspension videos aren't as helpful as I would have liked. It seems like the mount may have been flexing a little bit so I can't say for sure how much bushing deflection there is just from the videos .....
It may help to create a "visual gap gauge" as I noted in my reply to aviator. It was interesting watching the the coil spring. Any way to show the G-graphic on the same video?
At first I though it was odd to see so much droop, but it was obviously during hard braking, esp into right handers. Nice work!


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 Old 04-18-2016, 03:49 PM   #776
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
I almost got a heart attack, so let's clarify



and the recommended range for road racing is 180-200.

Do you have data on oil pressure? I wonder if at some point you will run into oil starvation issues with 1.2g lateral forces, but my guess is in your case these periods are too short, on a road racing course you could have a long sweeper that could potentially lead to oil starvation (happens on Evos for sure).
No oil pressure gauge, just running on faith. I don't look at the gauges during runs, so the engine would probably be screwed even if I had one and it lost pressure.





Originally Posted by xfeejayx View Post
In before phate breaks physics.

Please don't get us knocked out of ESP before we get to nationals.
Luckily, no one is campaigning an MS6 at that level!





Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
By Aviator: "That rear LCA sure looks like it is flexing all about but does it actually affect the suspension geometry?"

It looks to me like it's 95+% just swinging like a control arm should. Hard to see 2 - 3 mm of bushing flex. But I could see using a thin plate with an arc relative to the center of the pivot, tacked onto the frame plate, and marking an arc with an extra mm in radius on the control arm side. With same camera angle as the 2nd half of the video, you would see a constant 1mm gap, except when the bushing compresses.
Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
It may help to create a "visual gap gauge" as I noted in my reply to aviator. It was interesting watching the the coil spring. Any way to show the G-graphic on the same video?
At first I though it was odd to see so much droop, but it was obviously during hard braking, esp into right handers. Nice work!
I definitely need better references on the subframe and control arm to see relative movement. The camera mount moving (I think it is, anyway) doesn't help this at all.

I can put the g-g diagram on one of them, I have everything separated already so it's pretty easy to do.







Originally Posted by davychronic View Post
I see flares, we require more pics








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 Old 04-18-2016, 03:52 PM   #777
 
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They look so good
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 Old 04-21-2016, 07:30 AM   #778
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
..... I definitely need better references on the subframe and control arm to see relative movement. The camera mount moving (I think it is, anyway) doesn't help this at all.
At work, I (mostly my technician) often used LVDT's to measure relative motion between parts. But this would be a tough application.
LVDTs Linear Voltage Displacement Transducers There are also non-contact gap measuring instruments.

I
Originally Posted by phate View Post
I can put the g-g diagram on one of them, I have everything separated already so it's pretty easy to do.
I think that would help tell you on the LCA videos when you were seeing high lateral loads on the bushings, causing the camber change.

BTW that car looks great! Not overdone, but not quite a sleeper with that wide stance and flares.



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 Old 04-21-2016, 07:37 AM   #779
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
snipped awesome pics cause it's just wrong to quote pics again if you don't really need to.....

Looks great- you should really share one or two of your favorites with CanyonRider. He'd get a kick out of not being the only serious 6 with flares.

And yes, I'm totally discounting any other 6 or MS6 that uses flares for looks, cause then they're just stupid
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 Old 04-21-2016, 07:58 AM   #780
 
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Watching that video of the rear wheel again, I don't think you could have achieved that level of suspension response to the track surface, and related grip, by slapping on much stiffer sway bars that reduce the independence of the suspension. Nice!


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 Old 05-01-2016, 05:15 AM   #781
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Busy busy. Skies have momentarily cleared so we're chancing it at autocross today with the Hoosiers. Same site as last time, dialed in -3.8/-4.5° camber at 0 toe. -3.8 was all I could get in the front end after correcting toe.
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 Old 05-02-2016, 05:05 PM   #782
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Yesterday started out with a damp course and it was 65°-ish during our heat. Johanna co-drove and we were running 1st heat. That just meant we would be the ones cleaning off the course for everyone else, haha. The GoPro, once again, has come up with nothing but corrupt videos...

The car was really great, all around. The stutter that has plagued my car didn't show up at all. There weren't any sweepers, so hopefully it isn't a false positive - the car pulled cleanly all day. I honed in on tire pressures pretty quickly (44/41 front/rear) and the car was pretty forgiving. The alignment settings seemed a little closer, just based on tire wear (had the pyrometer, never thought to take temp gradients ). The tires weren't ever hot to the touch after a run, but grip was still phenomenal.

Johanna, having never driven a car on r-comps of any kind, adapted pretty quickly. If you've never driven on them, they're absolutely amazing up to the point where they just completely let go. They can be a handful because they aren't very communicative in any way. It takes some time to know where the limits are, and those limits are quite a bit higher than what we've had with street tires.

Results - I would have sworn and put money on my fastest run being blown, but somehow they recorded it as clean without penalty in the unofficial results. That run landed me as the fastest car with doors (and first in class), only behind a smoking fast shifter kart. Johanna wasn't too far behind and ended up 2nd in class and 9th fastest overall. There were 118 drivers, total.



The car still has more, and it's mostly down to us learning the limits of this ludicrous grip and trusting that it will stick. I was still being apprehensive about throwing the car into some sections and braking too much, just to find myself wishing I would have trusted it. Lateral and braking forces were both up compared to last time (and with a colder day/damp surface!), with 1.3g lateral being on the outskirts of common and hovering around 1g braking.


And in other news, I broke the first flare:



2 weeks until the next event
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 Old 05-03-2016, 11:48 AM   #783
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Yesterday started out with a damp course and it was 65°-ish during our heat. Johanna co-drove and we were running 1st heat. That just meant we would be the ones cleaning off the course for everyone else, haha. The GoPro, once again, has come up with nothing but corrupt videos...
GoPro is a big company, and should be able to help you out if it's a problem beyond your control. They advertise the camera in much more extreme applications, vs mounted on the side of a car.

Originally Posted by phate View Post
The car was really great, all around. The stutter that has plagued my car didn't show up at all. There weren't any sweepers, so hopefully it isn't a false positive - the car pulled cleanly all day. I honed in on tire pressures pretty quickly (44/41 front/rear) and the car was pretty forgiving. The alignment settings seemed a little closer, just based on tire wear (had the pyrometer, never thought to take temp gradients ). The tires weren't ever hot to the touch after a run, but grip was still phenomenal.

Johanna, having never driven a car on r-comps of any kind, adapted pretty quickly. If you've never driven on them, they're absolutely amazing up to the point where they just completely let go. They can be a handful because they aren't very communicative in any way. It takes some time to know where the limits are, and those limits are quite a bit higher than what we've had with street tires.
Hope that loose wire connection was the cause of the stutter. Seems like the 3 psi differential in tire pressure you found to be best during the last event on the RS3's still holds with the Hoosiers.

I never tried "ultimate summer tires" at track events, I went from "~best generic 175-70-13 street tires for autox in the early 80's, and switched to R-Comp Kumho VictoRacer V700 for all big HPDE type events over many years. I did try the Porshe 924T on all seasons (tons of feedback/noise) once before my first time on R-comps .... huge difference as you'd expect.

What was your estimated time advantage going from the RS3's to the Hoosiers?

Originally Posted by phate View Post
Results - I would have sworn and put money on my fastest run being blown, but somehow they recorded it as clean without penalty in the unofficial results. That run landed me as the fastest car with doors (and first in class), only behind a smoking fast shifter kart. Johanna wasn't too far behind and ended up 2nd in class and 9th fastest overall. There were 118 drivers, total.

The car still has more, and it's mostly down to us learning the limits of this ludicrous grip and trusting that it will stick. I was still being apprehensive about throwing the car into some sections and braking too much, just to find myself wishing I would have trusted it. Lateral and braking forces were both up compared to last time (and with a colder day/damp surface!), with 1.3g lateral being on the outskirts of common and hovering around 1g braking....

2 weeks until the next event
First, I wonder if readers are getting numb to the fact that you are just one shy of FTD in a ~3500 lb sedan, among a field of 118 drivers, that I assume include modified classes. Amazing, both car prep and driving!

Getting back to the rear bushings, in the two weeks off, could you add the G-force output to the video of the rear wheel from a prior race in March, Angle 2 ?? I think it will help to see how much is bushing flex vs body roll. If it's the latter, a step stiffer springs would help, if it's still in the range of the shock tune.
videos of front and rear tires
Best if the graphicis are close to and beside the rear wheel.

When I used a very large screwdriver to try to flex the upper and lower control arm, and toe link bushings, with the big trailing arm at full droop on my M6 with similar/same geometry, I could not get them to budge! I believe that is because of the overconstraint caused by the toe-link, as we discussed. It could be worst at full droop where I tested the flex. It's hard to imagine that these preloaded bushings flex more under race conditions.
Perhaps you can check the over-constraint by removing a spring and sway bar link, putting one bolt in one end of the toe-link, just snug tite on the nut and checking what dia drill bit can pass through the other end, vs vertical displacement, to quantify the over-constraint it causes.


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 Old 05-03-2016, 10:13 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Hope that loose wire connection was the cause of the stutter. Seems like the 3 psi differential in tire pressure you found to be best during the last event on the RS3's still holds with the Hoosiers.

I never tried "ultimate summer tires" at track events, I went from "~best generic 175-70-13 street tires for autox in the early 80's, and switched to R-Comp Kumho VictoRacer V700 for all big HPDE type events over many years. I did try the Porshe 924T on all seasons (tons of feedback/noise) once before my first time on R-comps .... huge difference as you'd expect.

What was your estimated time advantage going from the RS3's to the Hoosiers?
I'm guessing with the current driving, they're worth ~1 second over the RS3's on a 45 second course. It's tough to say, we're autocrossing in a different region and I haven't figured out who the good 'measuring sticks' are just yet. They'll be worth more after more time on them.

Looking at PAX/RTP standings with this club, I went from 28th at event 1 (RS3), to 15th at event 2 (Hoosier), to 5th at event 3 (Hoosier). 3 of the 4 ahead of me trophied at Nationals last year, and the other was just barely out of the trophies. Seems like we're on track, but I've never put much stock in PAX results.





Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
First, I wonder if readers are getting numb to the fact that you are just one shy of FTD in a ~3500 lb sedan, among a field of 118 drivers, that I assume include modified classes. Amazing, both car prep and driving!
Thank you. We've come a long way, that's for sure. This region doesn't have a large crowd of mod-class cars, except for the KM shifter karts which are just blazing fast. The SP classes, as a whole, make up a small percentage of the total (<10%) in this region. It's not like the club we run with in central IL where just my SP class makes up 10-15% of the total.





Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Getting back to the rear bushings, in the two weeks off, could you add the G-force output to the video of the rear wheel from a prior race in March, Angle 2 ?? I think it will help to see how much is bushing flex vs body roll. If it's the latter, a step stiffer springs would help, if it's still in the range of the shock tune.
videos of front and rear tires
Best if the graphicis are close to and beside the rear wheel.
Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
When I used a very large screwdriver to try to flex the upper and lower control arm, and toe link bushings, with the big trailing arm at full droop on my M6 with similar/same geometry, I could not get them to budge! I believe that is because of the overconstraint caused by the toe-link, as we discussed. It could be worst at full droop where I tested the flex. It's hard to imagine that these preloaded bushings flex more under race conditions.
Perhaps you can check the over-constraint by removing a spring and sway bar link, putting one bolt in one end of the toe-link, just snug tite on the nut and checking what dia drill bit can pass through the other end, vs vertical displacement, to quantify the over-constraint it causes.
Both of these will be projects for next week, this week has really stacked up. Good idea on checking how over-constrained the linkage is, I'll try to do this as well as re-measure bump steer with and without the toe-link in place.
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 Old 05-04-2016, 10:19 AM   #785
 
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Is it just my computer, or have the quotes dissappeared on at least this page ???


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 Old 05-04-2016, 10:21 AM   #786
 
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I see quotes on this page, quite a few- phate's post just up has 4 of em
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 Old 05-04-2016, 11:06 AM   #787
 
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I'm still seeing them as well.
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 Old 05-04-2016, 11:13 AM   #788
 
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Thanks guys, I can now see them too.
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 Old 05-04-2016, 02:07 PM   #789
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Just found this on my phone and uploaded to youtube. It's the only video from the autocross that I have! This is from the last or next to last run in the heat, Johanna driving. The dark areas on the pavement are the damp areas.


I did talk to the folks at GoPro and have some troubleshooting steps to go through. Hopefully we can narrow it down. First step was to reformat the card, which I did after this first occurred. Now that it's happened again, the next step is a different SD car, then reflashing the GoPro firmware if the SD card doesn't clear it up.
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 Old 05-04-2016, 02:23 PM   #790
 
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The way it settles so evenly is sweet. Really looks aggressive & fast...


not gonna lie, kinda hate you just a little bit right now. ...
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 Old 05-10-2016, 12:10 PM   #791
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Rear suspension videos aren't as helpful as I would have liked. It seems like the mount may have been flexing a little bit so I can't say for sure how much bushing deflection there is just from the videos. I may work on a more secure mount for a second try at this. I had it mounted to the subframe, above the seam where the LCA receiver box is:

Still a neat perspective, but nothing conclusive:
Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post

Getting back to the rear bushings, in the two weeks off, could you add the G-force output to the video of the rear wheel from a prior race in March, Angle 2 ?? I think it will help to see how much is bushing flex vs body roll. If it's the latter, a step stiffer springs would help, if it's still in the range of the shock tune.
videos of front and rear tires
Best if the graphicis are close to and beside the rear wheel.
I'm going to re-take some of these perspectives with a more rigid mounting system, rather than relying on those videos. I've been using GoPro's suction cup mount, which is just a single suction cup that becomes a little wobbly when extended out far enough to be useful. I suspect in the under-car video that the entire gopro was shifting from lateral forces, skewing the frame; as well as vibration of the camera. I picked up a better mount and aluminum extensions that should stiffen up the system quite a bit.






I've placed an order for a set of toe-link bushings to test out for the rear LCA's. I'm guessing they'll be here late this month or early June. I'm going to start on rear suspension testing/measuring tomorrow. Skipping autocross this weekend...I'd rather be autocrossing, but I'm graduating on Saturday. Hopefully lots of autocrossing after that, starting again on the 21st. Official results were posted from the last event and my fast run was, in fact, clean.





I need to do some poking around in the front end, too. I'm pretty sure the forward LCA's (straight ones that take nearly all of the lateral force) slipped in their receivers (bolt diameter is smaller than hole diameter). I heard a couple pops during the autocross and the alignment is a bit skewed now. Looking into the receiver, I can see a clean area where the bushing was sitting at some point...I didn't measure camber/toe afterwards, so I'll be checking things out soon. I had them torqued on the low end of spec, but I'm not sure even the high end of spec will keep them from slipping if I don't tighten them down in the inward-most position. I think I'll test this out by utilizing the slop to get extra negative camber this time around and torquing to max spec. I'll make some marks in the receiver so I can more clearly see if things have moved around.
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 Old 05-10-2016, 08:51 PM   #792
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
... I've placed an order for a set of toe-link bushings to test out for the rear LCA's. I'm guessing they'll be here late this month or early June. I'm going to start on rear suspension testing/measuring tomorrow. Skipping autocross this weekend...I'd rather be autocrossing, but I'm graduating on Saturday. Hopefully lots of autocrossing after that, starting again on the 21st. Official results were posted from the last event and my fast run was, in fact, clean......
When it come to testing sway bar bushings, it's simple because there is no preload to worry about, if installed properly. But for the bushings connected directly or by link or control arm to the rear trailing arm, based on my simple big lever testing, there is obvious preload from overconstraint that made them appear to be super stiff, compared to other suspension bushings I've tested the same way. Point is interpretation of the testing perhaps should be in conjunction with the degree of overconstraint due to the toe-link, that likely changes with suspension travel.

EDIT: I suggest you repeat the test I did to feel the bushing preload and apparent induced stiffness (at full droop in my case), using an extra heavy duty screwdriver (12.63" lg x .63" wide flat at tip) or equal. I'd assume Mazda used a CAD program to to optimize the rear trailing arm links for geometry control, as well as minimal toe-link overconstraint at normal ride height.


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 Old 05-13-2016, 06:34 PM   #793
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This week somehow got busier than ever, despite being off the past 3 days. I only got the front end tweaked with the lca's reset to give max negative camber. I still need to mark their position in the receiver, but won't be able to get back to anything until mid next week. Reset toe back to zero, but I'll get it on the rack after I do the rear suspension things next week.
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 Old 05-18-2016, 05:53 PM   #794
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Interesting bump steer readings. This graph compares to the original data set I took way back when with the original bushings:



Not at all what I expected. Seems like the whole point of the toe link is to reduce the bump steer that is inherent to the 3-link trailing arm system. Without the link, the bump steer is pretty nasty.

There are 2 unknowns that we're dealing with here - 1) how the stiffer trailing arm bushing is affecting the links (I doubt much), and 2) how lateral load affects the suspension (because the bushings will deflect).
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 Old 05-18-2016, 06:19 PM   #795
 
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Interesting that the softer stock bushings result in the least rear bump steer. Did you use the same toe link bushing with oem and orange bushings in the arm?

As I said before, the 2nd variable is complicated by the preload from the overconstraint of the trailing arm, and that preload at a bushing has to be exceeded by the lateral load before it will move, imho.


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 Old 05-18-2016, 07:16 PM   #796
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Interesting that the softer stock bushings result in the least rear bump steer. Did you use the same toe link bushing with oem and orange bushings in the arm?

As I said before, the 2nd variable is complicated by the preload from the overconstraint of the trailing arm, and that preload at a bushing has to be exceeded by the lateral load before it will move, imho.


.
Right now, I have green bushings (harder than stock) in the toe links and orange bushings in the lca's. I'm think the ratio of stiffness between the bushings those two links is at play. Going from memory, the stock toe link bushings seemed very stiff compared to the stock LCA bushings.

The preload from the bushings renders the three lower arms nearly rigid at full droop, that's for sure.
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 Old 05-19-2016, 07:52 PM   #797
 
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hey @phate; when u ran the whiteline RSB did u have to enlarge the sway bar endlink bolt holes? Cuz i have to, the fuckin stock bolts wont fit neither will the aftermarket AWR supplied bolts tht came with my adjustable endlinks. And they arent even close id say they are like atleast .010" off in diamater maybe more cuz ive been drilling them out for a min and still wont fit. im fuckin pissed, jw if anyone else has had this problem... Ud think whiteline would do some QC and check if the holes are even the right diameter.
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 Old 05-20-2016, 06:03 AM   #798
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Nope, I've never heard of that issue. A long time ago, I stopped assuming aftermarket parts would fit properly. Once you expect issues like that, life becomes much simpler, with much less rage.
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 Old 05-20-2016, 07:04 AM   #799
 
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@Tomas; could tell you a thing about WL RSB problems....

MS6 Whiteline RSB The Shit It is Not
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Was a Mazdaspeed6 GT #3476 TiGray slicktop
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 Old 05-20-2016, 07:16 AM   #800
 
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
hey @phate; when u ran the whiteline RSB did u have to enlarge the sway bar endlink bolt holes? Cuz i have to, the fuckin stock bolts wont fit neither will the aftermarket AWR supplied bolts tht came with my adjustable endlinks. And they arent even close id say they are like atleast .010" off in diamater maybe more cuz ive been drilling them out for a min and still wont fit. im fuckin pissed, jw if anyone else has had this problem... Ud think whiteline would do some QC and check if the holes are even the right diameter.
That sucks bro. I just installed my RSB a month or two ago and had no fitment issues. I went with the Steeda endlinks for the Fusion.
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Power & Drivetrain BNR S3v2 / AP V3 + 100% Meth / Autotechs / JBR Tru 3.5" SRI w/ 51R Battery / ETS TMIC / DO Meth D07 @ 100% / ACT6 Puck w/ Streetlight FW / 80mm CorkSport Exhaust / SLS Test Pipe / Turbosmart BPV / Techna-Fit SS CL / AP Shift Hammer / Bosch 3Bar / Grimspeed EBCS / NGK 1 Step Colder / JBR Boost Tubes / ProSport Sammich Plate / Rotella
Suspension & Mounts KWv2 Fronts & Bilstein Rears / AIDS Rear Diff Mounts / Whiteline RSB / Prothane Lowpro Bushings / Steeda Endlinks / JBR 88RMM / JBR Solid Bushings
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fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 7 This thread Refback 08-23-2015 04:39 AM
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BC coilovers VS. H&R coilovers - Page 15 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 08-26-2014 07:50 AM
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