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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


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 Old 04-19-2018, 11:36 AM   #1041
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Too small!




It looks like, if you extrapolate the points out for angle of attack, the lift will continue to decrease and and the coefficient of drag levels off a bit. So, max height (10") at an angle of or very near vertical will give the most dramatic change in rear lift.
How do you arrive at 10" being the optimal height by extrapolation?
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 Old 04-19-2018, 12:57 PM   #1042
 
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10" is optimal given it is the maximum allowed...
and Bigger = Better

Mic drop.
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 Old 04-19-2018, 07:06 PM   #1043
 
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Wow.. This thread............. <3 _ <3
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 Old 04-23-2018, 11:12 AM   #1044
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
How do you arrive at 10" being the optimal height by extrapolation?
The first chart (reposted below from an earlier post) shows coefficient of lift vs h/l. Where h is the vertical height of the spoiler and l is the wheelbase length, going all the way out to a h/l of 0.12...and the coefficient of lift continues to go negative with the bigger ratios.

The MS6 wheelbase is 111.4", so a 10" vertical spoiler would yield a ratio of 0.090. Laying it back 30° from vertical would yield a ratio of 0.072.

The second chart shows how the larger ratios nearing 0.100 producing an even more significant reduction in lift at low yaw angle...






Seems to me that bigger would be better, but I'm limited to 10" by the class rules. There's some really great info in a few threads on GRM by Steve Stafford, who is an aero engineer.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...ormance-wings/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...force-sorcery/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...-aerodynamics/

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...-spoiler-tips/

This podcast is worth a listen, as well. He talks specifically about the class spoilers I'm looking to build adding 100-200 lb downforce at 45mph. [Another point he makes in the podcast is that autocross cars should go for max downforce, regardless of drag increase.]




If you take a look at that third article, he describes a qualitative (somewhat quantitave, but no actual measurements) method of testing aero effects using paint dots on surfaces and looking at how they streak during a drive. Similar to the string or yarn method, but easier since you don't have to record the string movement and analyze video. I just got some powdered paint he recommends so I'm going to do the testing after I have a prototype or 2 for some back to back testing.
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 Old 04-23-2018, 03:13 PM   #1045
 
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Speaking of a 10 inch spoiler...
I also got a ricer flyby from him with that sweet popcorn crackles or whatever that garbage is

Speaking of garbage, my phone takes garbage pictures... It's an rx8 with what looks like sheet metal riveted on to the rear....
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 Old 04-23-2018, 03:21 PM   #1046
 
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That's not near big enough.
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 Old 04-23-2018, 05:53 PM   #1047
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Back at it tonight after a weekend at the dragon. It was really nice to get some drive time in with the new setup. It's a totally different feel than last year, it's like the world got smoother. I'm reserving judgment until I get the car to an autocross on the hoosiers.


Anyway, spoiler things. I started over after putting a nasty fold in my first piece of foam board. Instead of praying that i didn't do it again, i made vertical folds every 1" on this piece to make it a little easier to contour around the trunk lid profile. It's still very stiff with just some duct tape holding it at the bottom.

This will be my vertical spoiler mock up piece. It's not as wide as the car, so I picked up a 4x8' piece of foam board to extend it outboard as far as possible without going beyond the top view profile of the body. I also picked up a 4x8' sheet of lexan for when I'm ready to transfer foam cutouts to real lexan that I will test with.

Spoiler supports are on their way. I contemplated making my own, but it doesn't make sense cost wise considering how long they'll take me to make.

Edit: These are going to get cut down to 10", I'm getting the trunk profile in these pics before cutting to final height.
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 Old 04-25-2018, 04:45 AM   #1048
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This is very close to actual height and max width. I'll trim it down for testing if width affects the performance. It's ready to transfer to lexan.

I started on the laid back version after this, but it's definitely not as easy to mock up. I'll work on it more this week and next.






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 Old 04-27-2018, 05:34 AM   #1049
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I worked more on the angled spoiler last night. Starting with a single piece and trying to trim it to conform was really difficult, so I changed my strategy for this one. I cut a bunch of short, narrow pieces of foam board and taped them in place at the desired angle.




I then pulled that off and transferred it to a larger single piece. That got me about 90% to where I needed it to be. I stuck the new turnbuckles on with double stick tape to mock them up. This piece still needs trimmed down to the 10", as it sits in this pic it is about 15" tall.




I'll resume this project next week.
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 Old 04-27-2018, 06:12 AM   #1050
 
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I don't think this will look half as bad as I had imagined a ten inch spoiler would look.
Good work so far
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 Old 04-30-2018, 01:56 AM   #1051
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do those support rods have hem joints at the ends? If yes, brand and place of purchase please?
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 Old 04-30-2018, 04:16 AM   #1052
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
do those support rods have hem joints at the ends? If yes, brand and place of purchase please?
Sure do. Try this link.

If that doesn't work, check out Wehrs machine, part numbers including WM57. The ones with heims come in pairs.
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 Old 04-30-2018, 06:26 PM   #1053
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Perfect dude. Price is win.
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 Old 05-03-2018, 07:21 AM   #1054
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I haven't spent much time on the spoiler this week. I've been taking care of a few small things and reorganizing the trailer a bit.

I wanted to try to at least get the vertical fence rough cut from Lexan last night. Turns out to be really easy to work with.

Transferred the pattern to the big sheet:



Cut a big rectangle:



This thing worked like a champ:



And then we have something that looks roughly like a spoiler:





I'll do more work next week. Headed to Indy this weekend for a Sunday autocross.
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 Old 05-07-2018, 10:05 AM   #1055
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The car flat out rips, and it's never been easier to drive. I took first on overall pax and Johanna took 2nd out of about 100 drivers yesterday.

The updated dampers smooth out the world and the car is tough to upset with bumps or quick inputs. The difference from last year is really incredible. It's such a soft ride on course at full tilt, but all of the response is still there and the grip is absolutely immense.

The LSD is doing work, or more likely a combination of the changes over winter are preventing the inside front from spinning. I gave it hell at every opportunity and save for a bit of understeer in a couple places it just explodes out of corners. I just told myself to get the car aimed early and plant my right foot as soon as I could muster the courage. I still need work.


For my last run, I decided to try out launch control. It works, and it definitely covered up (time wise) the couple screw ups I had on course. My previous run was much cleaner driving, but .1s slower. Can't complain, but there's more out there.




Test and tune in 2 weeks, and a couple things to get finished before then - mostly the spoiler and to start thinking about a front air dam and splitter.

At the test and tune, I want to get data on tire temp gradients to dial in the alignment just a bit more. I also want to have the spoilers available for testing.





Re: Launch Control. I figured this out a few weeks ago, but don't think I ever posted about it because I wanted to make sure it actually worked again.

With the Cobb AP, your launch control and flat foot settings are part of the tune file. If you could send someone your tune file and they flash their car with it, it would also flash the LC/FFS settings.

With VersaTuner, the launch control/FFS/DTC's are a part of global settings, and they're only local to the device you set them on. So, I had flashed from my tablet to update a couple minor things before 2016 spring Nats not knowing this - as opposed to my laptop that I use for more intense tuning. Unbeknownst to me at the time, it flashed the 'local device' global settings...which turned off LC and FFS entirely because they hadn't ever been set on my tablet. 6700 rpm limits and 2 transfer cases later...you get the picture.

So, moral of that story - LC is back on and no more excuses. The car is back to being the whole package.
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 Old 05-08-2018, 02:07 PM   #1056
 
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That. Was. Awesome to watch.

I didn't see any body roll. Wish my car handled like that. Nice work taking it as far as you have!
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 Old 05-10-2018, 06:33 AM   #1057
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Well you finnaly beat Johanna.
What you do to the dampers? Lower both comp. and reb.?
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 Old 05-14-2018, 04:48 AM   #1058
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I've been really hesitant to start mounting the spoiler(s) onto the trunk lid because you know...that requires drilling lots of holes in it. So, I picked up a regular Mazda6 trunk lid that originally didn't have a spoiler. The final version will be transferred to my original trunk, because technically I can't swap them (yeah, I know...).

I started out swapping key cylinders, but that was pointless because the entire striker assembly needs swapped out. The Mazda6 has a shorter striker assembly, so it isn't long enough to capture the striker plate on the bottom. There's pretty much no chance of me swapping cylinder and striker plate at a TnT, so I'm going to tape the Mazda6 lid shut with some gorilla tape for testing purposes. Should be plenty strong for some autocross.


New old trunk lid. Now I can really stop caring and start drilling.




But first, I wanted to check out some edge seals I purchased. This is the one I decided to go with. It's an aluminum reinforced EPDE push on rubber seal.




That helps me out so I don't have to get the lexan perfectly contoured to the trunk lid. I trimmed the lexan probably 5 times before I was really happy with it. This edge seal grabs on hard, which is pretty obvious when you struggle to push it onto the edge. But, it's on -




I guess I forgot to take pictures mid drilling and installing riv nuts. I used M8 hardware for the angled brackets and M6 hardware for the turnbuckles. First stab at it:




I was really slacking on the pictures. I trimmed the lexan to be 9.75" off the deck lid. The rules state it can't overhang original bodywork when viewed from above - so I took a plumb bob and marked and trimmed the left and right edges to be barely within those confines.










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 Old 05-14-2018, 05:02 AM   #1059
 
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It doesn't look as ridiculous as you'd think a 10" spoiler would look.
I think the lexan being clear aides in that. Doing good work here....
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 Old 05-15-2018, 06:03 AM   #1060
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Non-spoiler things.

Alignment! The car was a little loose at high speed, and the alignment is partially to blame. The front tires wore pretty evenly, and could use a touch more negative camber. The rears, though, barely touched the insides:



So I'm adding -0.4° to the rear and -0.2° to the front.





To follow up on the subframe bushings - they didn't move!

Front:


Rear:






Non-performance related - I'm going to replace the hazy headlight covers. $50 on Amazon for these and they look like they're identical to OE (possibly from the original supplier to Mazda, idk).






Popping couplers - I had trouble at the dragon and again last weekend popping the throttle body coupler off. Turns out the crappy reducer coupler I got is a little short for the throttle body. Twofold fix for this - Chris from Speed Solutions sent me a throttle body with a bead welded onto it, and I'm getting a longer coupler with new clamps.







Splitter! I can't just go increasing rear stick without trying to improve front stick. Actually, the spoiler will likely result in a slight increase in front end lift, so this is to balance the aero load a bit. I started with a sheet of 1/2" birch ply:

Mark your corners in case you kick it out of place:



The rules state it can't protrude beyond the perimeter of the original bodywork, so I'm putting the plumb bob to use again. Instead of holding it and trying to mark it separately, I got some paint and let the plumb bob do the work:



Make a bunch of dots:



Cut with a jigsaw:




I'll pick this back up when I have the car ready to go for the TnT this weekend.
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 Old 05-15-2018, 11:09 AM   #1061
 
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are you going to do a separate splitter or do an entire undertray combo pan/splitter? I would think you could pick up some efficiencies with doing a single piece undertray and spoiler combo. Ditch the crappy barely functional plastic one and create a singular smooth surface. Hell you could even extend it back a tad further to seal up the engine bay area and contour it to create channelled air underneath.
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 Old 05-15-2018, 11:21 AM   #1062
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Originally Posted by GroceryGtr View Post
are you going to do a separate splitter or do an entire undertray combo pan/splitter? I would think you could pick up some efficiencies with doing a single piece undertray and spoiler combo. Ditch the crappy barely functional plastic one and create a singular smooth surface. Hell you could even extend it back a tad further to seal up the engine bay area and contour it to create channelled air underneath.
Here's the ruling:

A spoiler/splitter may be added to the front of the car below the bumper. It may not extend rearward beyond the front most part of the front wheel well openings, and may not block normal grille or other openings, or obstruct lights. Splitters may not protrude beyond the bumper. Openings may not be used for the purpose of ducting air to the radiator or oil cooler, but they may allow air to flow through a permitted oil cooler provided no ducting is used. The spoiler may not function as a wing. This allows a vertical air dam/spoiler above a horizontal splitter, but splitter fences or longitudinal vertical members that serve to trap air on top of the splitter by preventing it from flowing around the sides of the car are not allowed.


There's also no specific mention of removing stock undertrays until Street Modified. That's faster than my current class, and where I don't want to end up. Since it's not specifically allowed, I'm keeping the stock undertray...So, with that in mind and the limitation of not extending rearward beyond the wheel well opening, I'm doing a separate dam/splitter.


Going through the literature, I'm looking for a maximum extension downward of 100mm (I'm using the stock undertray as the upper plane to measure from), or a minimum height off the ground of about 50mm. I think the 50mm ground clearance will be the limiting factor, but I haven't gotten to that point, yet. I also don't want trailer loading/unloading to become a chore, so I'm looking at different methods of 'quick' attachment that are still sturdy, and also have some small height adjustment.
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 Old 05-15-2018, 11:55 AM   #1063
 
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Time a Futura trailer.

video
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 Old 05-15-2018, 12:03 PM   #1064
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
Time a Futura trailer.

video
Those things are definitely awesome, but don't think I'd give up the enclosed trailer for one.
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 Old 05-15-2018, 12:41 PM   #1065
 
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They certainly know how to appeal to our crowd...
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 Old 05-16-2018, 05:28 AM   #1066
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
Well you finnaly beat Johanna.
What you do to the dampers? Lower both comp. and reb.?
Lots more low speed, lots less high speed.
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 Old 05-16-2018, 05:39 AM   #1067

 
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Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
Well you finnaly beat Johanna.
What you do to the dampers? Lower both comp. and reb.?
He typically beats me by 0.2-0.8 seconds . I trophied at Nationals in the Ladies class, but if the car had held together for him and I had run in his class, he likely would have beat me, based on day 1 times. Every year, I set out to make it the year where this trend reverses...

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 Old 05-16-2018, 09:59 AM   #1068
 
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Hey this forum still exists! Glad to see you're doing so well with the car Clint! I'm sure you're aware but the cool thing about the 315 vs the 335 hoosiers is that they're the same height. Curious to see what you come up with for the tcase reinforcement.

Also, I'm not sure how heavy that wood is but I'm using .25" HDPE for my splitter on the evo. 4x8' sheet bought at menards. All said and done should weigh around 20-25lbs (for me) including hardware, and it's very abrasion resistant. If you want to get really light you can use alumalite but it's not the cheapest stuff.
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 Old 05-16-2018, 10:28 AM   #1069
 
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Cut out foam board, add hole reinforcements, wrap in carbon fiber, vacuum bag it, set it out in the sun to cure.
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 Old 05-16-2018, 12:09 PM   #1070
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Cut out foam board, add hole reinforcements, wrap in carbon fiber, vacuum bag it, set it out in the sun to cure.
You buying?

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 Old 05-18-2018, 05:17 AM   #1071
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Here's the ruling:

I also don't want trailer loading/unloading to become a chore, so I'm looking at different methods of 'quick' attachment that are still sturdy, and also have some small height adjustment.
Pfft with enough race ramps there is no such thing as too low. My abarth sits on the ground when in downforce mode and I had no issues getting it on a non-low boy...now granted I needed like 12 feet of load space behind the trailer to lay out the long ass ramps... I have a set in my basement if you want to try them out.
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 Old 05-18-2018, 05:38 AM   #1072
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Originally Posted by GroceryGtr View Post
Pfft with enough race ramps there is no such thing as too low. My abarth sits on the ground when in downforce mode and I had no issues getting it on a non-low boy...now granted I needed like 12 feet of load space behind the trailer to lay out the long ass ramps... I have a set in my basement if you want to try them out.
I think I'll just need to get the nose up high enough that it doesn't scrape the trailer ramp. Shouldn't need a whole lot even if the splitter is 2" off the ground. At the TNT this weekend, I'm going to test what minimum height the front end gets to under cornering/braking. I'll continue the splitter project next week if this weekend goes well.

I'm all loaded up, headed down after work.
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 Old 05-18-2018, 08:29 AM   #1073
 
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You could be the first to develop a front suspension hydraulic lift system on a speed 6. That would be boss!
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 Old 05-21-2018, 05:30 AM   #1074
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The spoiler stays. We had the car out for the test and tune both Saturday and Sunday. Ran tons of runs with the stock spoiler to the point we were consistent and not getting any faster (on 285/30 Bridgestone RE71R's). Swapped trunk lids and within a couple runs went 0.4s faster on a 40s course.

It just makes the car a hair more stable at high speeds. I really noticed it in the giant slalom where I would normally have the back end step out, it just didn't step out quite as much and was faster to catch traction once it did start to slide a touch.

We threw the Hoosiers back on and it's even more noticeable. We're carrying more speed with them to start with, and aero forces increase at the square of velocity.


Tried out my new IR camera I stuck it on pointing at the left front tire. This is Johanna driving, me riding shotgun and narrating, haha. On the first 2 runs watching the heat gradient, I knew that they weren't being pushed very hard. You can literally see the tire utilization in corners using this thing - and when you do utilize them they light up across the whole tire and the grip they generate is really incredible. It's just a matter of putting them there every single corner.





We ended yesterday with the car running out of fuel, so I'm interested to see how low it actually is now running dual pumps. I'll fill it up this week before loading it up for Lincoln.
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 Old 05-21-2018, 05:51 AM   #1075
 
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Nice, I need a race wife. If I take off from a stop light too fast in my 150 hp ltd the wife says she's gonna throw up.. LOL
Awesome the spoiler is gonna work out.
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 Old 05-24-2018, 04:42 AM   #1076
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I transferred the spoiler to the original trunk lid. I remade the brackets from 304 stainless, and used all stainless hardware this time around.
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Shocks for a daily driven Mazdaspeed 6 This thread Refback 12-05-2015 09:07 PM
Whats New/General Speed 6 Discussion - Page 296 This thread Refback 11-29-2015 05:42 PM
fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 7 This thread Refback 08-23-2015 04:39 AM
fe1rx Ohlins Installation - Page 6 This thread Refback 04-25-2015 01:24 PM
Prepping as dedicated track car - Page 56 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 02-21-2015 12:36 PM
BC coilovers VS. H&R coilovers - Page 15 - Mazda 6 Forums : Mazda 6 Forum / Mazda Atenza Forum This thread Refback 08-26-2014 07:50 AM
Whats New/General Speed 6 Discussion - Page 297 This thread Refback 07-28-2014 08:03 PM
racing aspirations » Suspension Geometry Calculator This thread Refback 06-21-2014 02:57 AM
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