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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


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 Old 07-02-2018, 06:51 AM   #1081
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Back at Indy over the weekend, same site as the champ tour. This one was smaller, only 120ish drivers each day. Saturday, I took the overall for pax and Johanna took 2nd only 0.015 seconds behind me. Sunday, Johanna took first overall on pax and I took 2nd.

Splitter stuff -

We did a couple runs Saturday with the stock bumper, then switched to the bumper and splitter combo. It definitely changes the behavior of the car. We went from mild high speed push where you really had to work for rotation to very easily induced rotation. I don't think it's as noticeable as the spoiler - but all I needed was a little more front end grip to balance the car and I think we got that.

The splitter was pretty high off the ground Saturday, and I lowered it 1/2-5/8" for Sunday. That seemed to help even more, and it was just barely scraping the outer edges in turns over wavy sections of concrete. It's ~2-3/8" off the ground right now, and I'll leave it there until the next event. It seems like a simple tool for altering behavior of the car.
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 Old 07-02-2018, 09:47 AM   #1082
 
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I like the ingenuity in the splitter design... especially the carabiners! Are you leaving it wood or do you have a material in mind for a replacement? Depending on how you did it Id think fiberglass might be a bit lighter. Obviously CF is out for the ridiculous cost and molding process. I had a buddy do one out of a giant piece of abs with aluminum L bracket ribs for support, but it was a huge pita to get right and from what I remember wasn't that much lighter.
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 Old 07-02-2018, 10:30 AM   #1083
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Originally Posted by GroceryGtr View Post
I like the ingenuity in the splitter design... especially the carabiners! Are you leaving it wood or do you have a material in mind for a replacement? Depending on how you did it Id think fiberglass might be a bit lighter. Obviously CF is out for the ridiculous cost and molding process. I had a buddy do one out of a giant piece of abs with aluminum L bracket ribs for support, but it was a huge pita to get right and from what I remember wasn't that much lighter.
I've been weighing (lol) the options today. Alumalite seems to be the material of choice, but I'm not convinced it's worth the extra time and money.

4'x8' 1/2" ply - 45lbs

4'x8' 10mm alumalite - 32lbs

I used maybe 25% of the full sheet, so going to alumalite will save just over 3lbs, but will require larger hardware to affix the fence and other hardware.

So, net savings of maybe 2lbs for $200 and the time it takes to remake the splitter...Plywood is looking just fine, I think.
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 Old 07-02-2018, 04:39 PM   #1084
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Rather than a normal hex nut as a jam but, I opted for wing nuts. Should make it a little easier.

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 Old 07-12-2018, 12:18 PM   #1085
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
The spoiler stays. We had the car out for the test and tune both Saturday and Sunday. Ran tons of runs with the stock spoiler to the point we were consistent and not getting any faster (on 285/30 Bridgestone RE71R's). Swapped trunk lids and within a couple runs went 0.4s faster on a 40s course.

It just makes the car a hair more stable at high speeds. I really noticed it in the giant slalom where I would normally have the back end step out, it just didn't step out quite as much and was faster to catch traction once it did start to slide a touch .....
Been AWOL, but great work on the spoiler ! I initially had thought in terms of measuring the change in pressure on the trunk lid, as later suggested in a link of yours that recommended a Magnehelic gauge. I have one for differential pressure (2 hoses) that I used to optimize the intake on the Rx7. Great tool for ~$60. But there's a lot of issues making sure you get just the static pressure, vs any velocity head from swirling air.

But I think the .4 sec's on a 40 sec run is a good quantitative measurement, if very repeatable. And the feel of the car that you noted sounds positive.

---------------

Regarding the front Torsen, I suggest changing the oil after a month or so, and having an oil analysis test done. Perhaps it will show it's fine, but my experience with the rear Torsen on the Rx7 was that it turned black from high frictional heat (not from contaminates like with eng oil), while the trans oil looked new, for the same miles used.

Great research and work on the Spoiler Clint !
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 Old 07-17-2018, 07:17 AM   #1086
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Down south at Bristol for the match and champ tours - they were back to back and made for a great week. We got there the day before the match tour on the 4th so we could hit the test course. It's another asphalt lot and I came in wanting to focus on trail braking better. Took it for a couple test runs and then Johanna did the same. She was braking way better than I was and I re-calibrated my mind on the last couple test runs and was pretty happy with everything. We got starting pressures and hot pressures during test runs.

The lot was EXTREMELY bumpy - big humps in the pavement that tossed around cars with stiff suspension and little suspension travel. I have neither of those limitations, so the car didn't misbehave at all over these sections. I didn't give up my driving line or have to back out of the throttle at any point because of surface variation, and that turned out to be massively beneficial. I really felt like my braking was on point, and as a whole I feel like this was the most effectively I've ever driven the car.


The results were good. At the match tour's first day (2 sets of 3 runs, one set in the morning, another set in the afternoon), I won the class and took first on overall pax. Johanna had a full class in ESPL and took the class win there, also. She ended up 13th on overall pax.


The match tour's 2nd day ended up getting rained out for the challenge, but we had a few more runs in the morning for qualifying. We both qualified for the challenge and knew that rain was a potential, so we hauled the rain tires down to grid with us just in case. As the challenge was starting in the afternoon, a pretty nasty thunderstorm rolled in and put us on a lightning delay that held long enough for them to just cancel the rest of the day. The champ tour course needed to be set up, still.

Video from the match tour's first session. I was really struggling with the new app, solostorm. It ended up downloading the same video for most of our runs, and I attempted to resolve this by wiping the SD card. That didn't fix it and we lost all the high resolution videos, so I was left with only the low resolution previews...









At the champ tour, I was running open class and Johanna was running in ESPL again with a full class. That was probably helpful because it was HOT for both events and the turnaround time for 2 driver cars was extremely short. We were able to manage tire temperatures pretty well, and it looked like 2 driver cars were having a tough time keeping them cool.

The first day went well. At the end of runs, I was leading by 1.3s and Johanna was leading her class by just over 0.5s. Johanna was running in first heat, and the 2nd day (5th day in a row of running the car) brought some excitement. I'll digress for a moment - nationals competition has made me rethink my approach to runs. I used to use my first run to get heat in the tires and not worry so much about cones. It was a look at the course at speed, without much regard for a clean run. With nationals, you only get 3 runs each session, and hitting a cone first run puts you in a position where you're pressured to 'get clean' on your 2nd run - that usually means holding back a bit and maybe not going as fast as you could, otherwise.

Now, my tactic is to go out first run and be clean and just have one in the bank in case I cone on subsequent runs or something happens to the car. There's less pressure and I'm more comfortable pushing harder on subsequent runs with a clean one in the books. This has proven to be beneficial. In finger lakes, I only got 1 run in on the second day and it was enough to hold onto my lead. Had I coned, I would have coned away the entire event and been out of the trophies entirely. Back to Bristol competition...

2nd day champ tour, I remind Johanna to try to get a clean one in the books on her first run. Her first run looks ok and no cones, but when she pulls back into grid the car is misfiring...not good. We go through the diagnostics of plugs first, and that's not it. Take a look at fuel pressure with the engine off and it's dropping like a rock - I suspect the relief valve and we decide not to run it anymore. No good, because I still have a heat to drive later in the day. One of Johanna's competitors offers up her F Street Mustang as a replacement to at least get runs in and we agree to it. But, Johanna's first run was fast enough to hold onto the lead and she ended up winning the class, anyway!

My heat rolls around and I'm thinking that I just need to do my best to minimize the damage (lol). It's been a really long time since I've driven a powerful rear drive car and I've never even sat in this one before now, so I go out on first run and the car reminds me that throttle steer is a thing (ha). I get a little too throttle happy way early in the run and get the car out of sorts and go off course rather than mash a wall of cones. I use the rest of that run to familiarize myself with the car - being smooth on the throttle is the way to go. 2nd run I've changed my mindset to this car and put together a respectable time, the car is actually pretty easy to drive when you aren't twitchy on the throttle. 3rd run in the Mustang and I'm feeling great about it until the mid course slalom where I gave it a bit too much loud pedal in a slalom and had to check the car which cost me probably over a half second. That run ends up being 0.3s slower than my 2nd run.

I'm going to digress again - if you look at F Street times, my 2nd run would have put me in 2nd place in that class for the day. I'm pretty pleased with the car and my driving in it. I haven't driven much outside of MS3's and MS6's in a very long time and I think I'll start trying to get drives in other cars after nationals this year. Having diverse experience with skilled drivers is what helped me out in my first few years of autocrossing, and I want to try that out more.

Anyway, while all of that is going on, my competition is doing their best to diminish the lead I had coming in to second day runs. The 2nd place driver from day 1 lays down some smoking fast runs and takes over 1st place. The 3rd place driver from day 1 cuts down the lead, but it isn't enough to overtake me for 2nd place. Overall, I'm still pretty pleased with a 2nd place finish.






The misfire ended up being the cyl1 injector being stuck open. This is the same failure as Lincoln several weeks ago, so I have some fuel system work to do. The set of injectors from Lincoln (I replaced them all) is headed to Canada for cleaning and maybe they'll be able to tell me it was just contamination. After a 2nd failure, I'm thinking definitely contamination so I need to go through the system. I'll check that the fuel filter is still attached to the pump in the tank and look for debris. I'll also check the component filters in the system that remained after the new set of injectors went in. There's one on the relief valve, so the new RV takes care of that. I think there's also one on the y-fitting at the HPFP, so I'll see if that's degraded.












Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Been AWOL, but great work on the spoiler ! I initially had thought in terms of measuring the change in pressure on the trunk lid, as later suggested in a link of yours that recommended a Magnehelic gauge. I have one for differential pressure (2 hoses) that I used to optimize the intake on the Rx7. Great tool for ~$60. But there's a lot of issues making sure you get just the static pressure, vs any velocity head from swirling air.

But I think the .4 sec's on a 40 sec run is a good quantitative measurement, if very repeatable. And the feel of the car that you noted sounds positive.

---------------

Regarding the front Torsen, I suggest changing the oil after a month or so, and having an oil analysis test done. Perhaps it will show it's fine, but my experience with the rear Torsen on the Rx7 was that it turned black from high frictional heat (not from contaminates like with eng oil), while the trans oil looked new, for the same miles used.

Great research and work on the Spoiler Clint !
Thanks, the spoiler and splitter working together is a good combo. Now that I have all of the 'big' stuff done that are within the rules, I have a few things I want to go back to and tweak. The rear suspension's LCA bushings are, I think, a big weakness right now. I have to run almost a degree more camber in the rear than the front and you can see the camber loss in pictures - it should be gaining a LOT of camber through bump travel, but I think the bushing compliance is negating it. [No changes until after nats in September, though.]

Now that we have a little bit of down time, I'll probably change the trans fluid. It's been on my mind, but I haven't noticed a change in performance since it first went in.
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 Old 07-18-2018, 07:28 AM   #1087
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Catching up to this past weekend we had a local event with Indy SCCA. Tiny lot was tiny, but the course was fun. Another bumpy lot (not as bad as Bristol), but they made good use of the space.

I played around with SoloStorm more and think I have it working ok. Not sure why the timer stops prematurely, maybe the course routed too close to the finish and it picked up on that (via GPS). I successfully imported the high res version of the video and did the overlay, though it could be synced better (my own fault).



Ended up first overall on both index and raw time. Johanna was a couple tenths behind and landed 2nd on index.
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 Old 08-06-2018, 11:10 AM   #1088
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Went up to Oscoda, MI for the ProSolo this past weekend. It's been about 2 years since we did a pro, and the car has been running well aside from the recent injector issues. Got up there Friday afternoon and did a bunch of practice starts (pros start with a drag racing tree). Car felt pretty good, turned down launch control due to lots of grit on the concrete. Walk the courses afterwards and head to the super awesome lake house AirBNB.

Saturday morning first session goes pretty well. Johanna ran in a huge bump class of L1, and was sitting in 2nd after her morning runs. I go out for my runs and think the concrete isn't as grippy as expected and struggle with the finish on each side, but am sitting in 3rd in my huge bump class.

2nd session is in the afternoon and Johanna closes the gap onto 1st. I take the car out for my second set of runs and the 1st run on the left course the car feels strange, it went loose in a right hander that I should have stuck in. Think my driving is to blame and regroup. Swap to right side course and the car plows HARD in a big right handed sweeper...I must suck at driving today so I start to creep back in. About 10 seconds later going slow because the run is blown the back end steps out HARD...so now I know something is screwed up but there's no odd sounds going on. Here's my 2nd run - at 21s the car plows hard and I go off course. Around 32s is where the back end steps out while driving slow:



At this point I'm thinking something is loose in the rear suspension, but haven't heard anything knocking around. So I decide to take a 3rd run to confirm it's really screwed up. Same results, car goes crazy loose when it shouldn't - decide to pull the car out and check things.



Get the car on stands, check every suspension bolt and they're all tight as can be. Check wheel bearings and they seem fine. That leads us to the rear differential. With someone spinning a rear tire I can feel a light tapping from inside the diff while touching it. Drain fluid - no chunks. Refill with fresh fluid and take it for a drive and we have fun new sounds:



So it looks like I'll be pulling the diff out starting tonight. I'm going to have the alignment checked on a rack so I know where it's at. I like how it's set up, and I want to be able to go back to it.



Johanna ended up holding onto 2nd in her class, and I dropped back to 6/10 since I was only standing on my first session's times (there's 3 sessions total).



_____________________________________


On a positive note, I made the car quieter. Since we've been dinged for sound at every event this year, I decided to make a permanent change with a muffler. I called up Coast Fab and they made a repackable muffler that weighs only 3.6 lbs. I had the piping redone from the downpipe coupler, back. Pics are attached.

We've consistently been in the high 90's and peaked right at 101dB at the other events. Oscoda saw a max of 95dB with the wind blowing directly at the mic from course, so that's a worst case situation. Most readings were 92-93dB, and a LOT of cars were getting warned for high sound levels. Seems to work really well and no difference in performance. I think it still sounds pretty good, too - it just brought the overall sound level down a touch.
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 Old 08-06-2018, 11:15 AM   #1089
 
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Looks like you went to the local machine shop for metal shavings to use as packing material.
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 Old 08-09-2018, 08:35 AM   #1090
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As expected, problems in the rear diff. The clutch plates broke a tab off on each side. They probably got wedged in and locked the diff solid for it to exhibit the behavior that it did.

This diff had 72k miles on it and roughly 700 autocross/drag strip runs.




I picked up a 39k mile unit yesterday and should have it back together tomorrow night.
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 Old 08-11-2018, 07:46 PM   #1091
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
.... Thanks, the spoiler and splitter working together is a good combo. Now that I have all of the 'big' stuff done that are within the rules, I have a few things I want to go back to and tweak. The rear suspension's LCA bushings are, I think, a big weakness right now. I have to run almost a degree more camber in the rear than the front and you can see the camber loss in pictures - it should be gaining a LOT of camber through bump travel, but I think the bushing compliance is negating it. [No changes until after nats in September, though.]

Now that we have a little bit of down time, I'll probably change the trans fluid. It's been on my mind, but I haven't noticed a change in performance since it first went in.
I thought all bushings back there were the Russian ones? Not stiff enough @ LCA? The manual trans oil's are usually gear oils, and hold up well 'till you notice clunky shifting as those shifting additives give it up. It's the front diff oil I was concerned about. And based on the rear's demise, perhaps a more frequent change back there will extend it's life. It's that torque (and resulting side gear separating force) coming out of the corners that heats it up at the cones and clutches.

Also, in one of those pics, you were lifting the inside rear wheel more than a bit, braking into a sharp corner. Ok if you want to induce oversteer, but the loss of rear WT and dramatic skew in roll axis, result in a higher rear roll center and roll couple (based on Puhn logic), usually not good things.


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 Old 08-11-2018, 07:58 PM   #1092
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I thought all bushings back there were the Russian ones? Not stiff enough @ LCA? The manual trans oil's are usually gear oils, and hold up well 'till you notice clunky shifting as those additives give it up. It's the front diff oil I was concerned about.

Also, in one of those pics, you were lifting the inside rear wheel more than a bit, braking into a sharp corner. Ok if you want to induce oversteer, but the loss of rear WT and dramatic skew in roll axis, result in a higher rear roll center and roll couple (based on Puhn logic), usually not good things.


.
Not stiff enough bushings, I believe. I think those were similar to stock stiffness. I'm going to try the toe link bushings in the lca, at least in one side (they're a harder poly). I'll measure the actual stiffness of both before I do that. I also need to see what it does to bump steer.

Rear grip has been really good even under very heavy trail braking. So far so good, and seems to be a limitation of droop travel with the rear bar settings. I don't want to give up any roll stiffness, though - the higher spring rates this year was in part to prevent tire lift. Front grip on corner exit was the top priority, and I think we nailed it between the front lsd and higher spring rates.

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 Old 08-12-2018, 06:16 PM   #1093
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The car is back together with the new diff. I took it on a short drive and everything seems good. I had the alignment dialed back in to -2.8° front camber and -3.5° rear camber with 0° toe all around.

Local event back home next Saturday, then a test day in Indy that Sunday. Nats is the first week in September!
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 Old 08-21-2018, 05:33 AM   #1094
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We took the car out one last time before Nats in 2 weeks. We were back home in central Illinois this time, and took 1st and 2nd on pax by a small margin Saturday. Corded 3 tires and the brake pedal has been feeling progressively worse the last few events.

Pulled the front pads last night and replaced them (HP+). Everything feels normal again. Going to do the rears tonight.


I cashed in all of our Hawk winnings last week so I had replacements on hand Along with these four sets, I also ordered a set of DTC-30 for the front for testing next season. They aren't making another run of anything in that compound for 1-2 months, so I'm just waiting on them. And a set of front pads for the truck since it will probably need them next year.
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 Old 08-23-2018, 10:22 PM   #1095
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Not stiff enough bushings, I believe. I think those were similar to stock stiffness. I'm going to try the toe link bushings in the lca, at least in one side (they're a harder poly). I'll measure the actual stiffness of both before I do that. I also need to see what it does to bump steer.

Rear grip has been really good even under very heavy trail braking. So far so good, and seems to be a limitation of droop travel with the rear bar settings. I don't want to give up any roll stiffness, though - the higher spring rates this year was in part to prevent tire lift. Front grip on corner exit was the top priority, and I think we nailed it between the front lsd and higher spring rates.
Bottom line is you nailed the better front grip on corner exit, well done! The implication is that the lift in the rear was not a bad effect ... looking at pics of the nationals over the years shows cars lifting F, R, or F & R (Porsche) .

Did you measure the stiffness of the toe-link bushings, current vs new? We talked about the overconstraint at the trailing arm attachment points, and perhaps both the toe-link and upper control arm could be dedicated to resisting the moment that changes camber, by using stiffer bushings.

Just curious, the stock track is 60.6", what is your current estimated nominal value, center to center @ zero camber ? Looks like a bunch !



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 Old 08-24-2018, 05:10 AM   #1096
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Bottom line is you nailed the better front grip on corner exit, well done! The implication is that the lift in the rear was not a bad effect ... looking at pics of the nationals over the years shows cars lifting F, R, or F & R (Porsche) .

Did you measure the stiffness of the toe-link bushings, current vs new? We talked about the overconstraint at the trailing arm attachment points, and perhaps both the toe-link and upper control arm could be dedicated to resisting the moment that changes camber, by using stiffer bushings.
I never measured the stiffness, directly, only the effect on bump steer. One of my winter projects is to measure more of the bushings' stiffness.



Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Just curious, the stock track is 60.6", what is your current estimated nominal value, center to center @ zero camber ? Looks like a bunch !
It is a lot, haha. Outside to outside is approximately 78" front and 77" rear - so 66" and 65" center to center. The car is definitely wide...

Their is this stigma in the autocross community that making a car wider is an absolute no-no (it's the number 1 thing people ask me about, aside from why I built an MS6). The numbers made sense, and I don't really understand why the stigma exists, because we picked up a TON of grip this year. It absolutely offsets the wider track and larger drive radius that it requires.
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 Old 08-25-2018, 12:21 PM   #1097
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Their is this stigma in the autocross community that making a car wider is an absolute no-no (it's the number 1 thing people ask me about, aside from why I built an MS6). The numbers made sense, and I don't really understand why the stigma exists, because we picked up a TON of grip this year. It absolutely offsets the wider track and larger drive radius that it requires.
People are scared about the extra offset width you need to travel to traverse slaloms, without considering the magnitude of the benefits everywhere else on the course.

Lots of people preach driving the shortest line you can, to the extent that they will even sometimes sacrifice corner speed/radius to drive a shorter path. It's a tough theory to quantify if you're only getting 3 runs, unless you're dead consistent and have a quality DAQ that allows you to microanalyze each course element.
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 Old 08-25-2018, 01:40 PM   #1098
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Originally Posted by Crarrs View Post
People are scared about the extra offset width you need to travel to traverse slaloms, without considering the magnitude of the benefits everywhere else on the course.

Lots of people preach driving the shortest line you can, to the extent that they will even sometimes sacrifice corner speed/radius to drive a shorter path. It's a tough theory to quantify if you're only getting 3 runs, unless you're dead consistent and have a quality DAQ that allows you to microanalyze each course element.
Yeah, I understand their reasoning...but it doesn't make sense. I'll post the math later, it ends up being SUPER simple and you only have to make 1 assumption that can be pretty conservative.

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 Old 09-08-2018, 07:31 PM   #1099
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Yeah, I understand their reasoning...but it doesn't make sense. I'll post the math later, it ends up being SUPER simple and you only have to make 1 assumption that can be pretty conservative.
I recall on my GT-6, the oem F&R track were 49/48", but I upgraded the rear "swing axles" to late model Spitfire ones, for 49/50" track. Bottom line is most of the time on the slaloms I had strait lines in mind and got away with it. Interested in your math exercise

I never measured the stiffness, directly, only the effect on bump steer. One of my winter projects is to measure more of the bushings' stiffness.
If possible this winter, please measure the oem rear sway bar stiffness with stock bushings installed. This will give two data points (MS6 F & R ) for bar stiffness, and allow determination of an imperical correction factor equation for softening due to rigid body motion. That was your correct conclusion for why the measured rates were so much lower than calculated (Puhn) rates.


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 Old 09-11-2018, 03:39 PM   #1100
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Back from Nationals. The debrief:

We arrived on site Monday, but weren't running until Thursday/Friday. We wanted to hang out a few days and we had nothing planned until Wednesday for a couple test and tune sessions. CAM challenge and the prosolo had already completed their run days so tons of people on site when we got there. Lots of paddock parties, lots of fun.

Tuesday was first day of competition, and it was WET. It poured all day...it was absolutely the wettest autocross I've ever seen. I believe they got over 4" of rain in one day, which meant lots of excitement on course and we watched some of the action throughout the day.



Wednesday we hit the TNT course, and wouldn't you know it it's totally dry for both of our morning and afternoon session. No chance to test out the wets still with a chance of rain for the next couple days for our run groups. Car feels great. No changes intended and none made, those runs were just for scrubbing in new tires and getting the jitters out.


Sometime Tuesday, JG Pasterjak asked if he could do an interview with me about the MS6 for Grassroots Motorsports magazine. After the test and tune session, we pulled the car over to their booth and I answered a few questions for them. Was super cool for them to ask about the car.



Pic of the GRM guys doing their thing:








Thursday is our first run day. I'm running 2nd heat, Johanna is running 5th heat. I'm feeling pretty good about everything. 1st run out, about 2/3 of the way through the run I hear a coupler explode. Great. But, timing is screwed up and they are granting me a rerun. Work furiously to replace it while running back to the trailer to get a spare, but don't get it in time for the rerun. Oh well, 2 runs left. I'm still feeling pretty good about the day and lay down a decent 2nd run but it's still about .5s back from 1st. 3rd run I make very minimal mistakes and land myself in 1st with a 0.084s lead going into day 2. Tomorrow will be a battle.


First day's fastest run:




Day 2 - The weather is somehow holding up so far, but the forecast says we'll likely get moisture at some point. I'm feeling pretty good, it's strange to be sitting at the front of the class at this level. Run 1 is fast, the car feels great, but I'm on the gas just a split second too soon coming out of the slalom and just barely scoot the last cone out of its box. I can make up for that. The guys trailing me are laying down solid runs. I take it out for run 2 and go into the slalom too hot, push wide and get behind, and again tag a cone. Slow run, not good. 3rd run rolls around and I can't figure out wtf I'm doing in this slalom. Get behind again because I'm definitely overdriving it, keep it clean, then blow another corner later in the run. All that drops me back to 4th spot.

Disappointing, because I've been "on" with the car all season. I've elevated my driving this year like no other, and really think Bristol was the best driving I've ever done. I just couldn't recreate it this weekend. There's always next year...Anyway, this is my 1st run from Day 2, since it was the best driving of the 3.


The overall is skewed a bit since about half of the 1,347 drove in damp or wet conditions, but overall I was 11th out of everyone. The competition really is that good, it's been an incredible year running with these guys.








Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I recall on my GT-6, the oem F&R track were 49/48", but I upgraded the rear "swing axles" to late model Spitfire ones, for 49/50" track. Bottom line is most of the time on the slaloms I had strait lines in mind and got away with it. Interested in your math exercise
I'm uploading a video to explain it. Thought it might be a little more coherent than me typing away at it.


Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
If possible this winter, please measure the oem rear sway bar stiffness with stock bushings installed. This will give two data points (MS6 F & R ) for bar stiffness, and allow determination of an imperical correction factor equation for softening due to rigid body motion. That was your correct conclusion for why the measured rates were so much lower than calculated (Puhn) rates.
I no longer have the stock rear ARB. I think I got rid of that in the move to Michigan.
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 Old 09-12-2018, 04:56 PM   #1101
 
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I still have my old rear ASB if that'll help. I don't have the bushings though.
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 Old 09-13-2018, 06:22 PM   #1102
 
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Congrats on a great effort among the top drivers in the Nation !

I noticed excellent power being put down early coming out of the big corners. On Day 1, the video seemed to show you needed a better line making the final left turn before the "strait" with slalom to the finish. Still, to get your best run after rushing to install a coupler is impressive!

How did Johanna do?


.
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 Old 09-13-2018, 07:25 PM   #1103
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Congrats on a great effort among the top drivers in the Nation !

I noticed excellent power being put down early coming out of the big corners. On Day 1, the video seemed to show you needed a better line making the final left turn before the "strait" with slalom to the finish. Still, to get your best run after rushing to install a coupler is impressive!

How did Johanna do?


.
Thanks. They were great courses that required a lot of precision rather than brute force. They were really fun and challenging. That corner into the final slalom was especially tough to get "right", and there is still discussion about what the best entry was.

I'll let Johanna tell her story about Nats.

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 Old 09-13-2018, 08:22 PM   #1104

 
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Congrats on a great effort among the top drivers in the Nation !


How did Johanna do?


.


Drove poorly on day 1.
Tested out the virgin rain tires on day 2.
Spun 3 of my 6 runs. Coned 2 of the other 3 runs.

Have maybe almost contemplated quitting autocross since then.

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 Old 09-15-2018, 10:40 PM   #1105
 
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Originally Posted by MS3johanna View Post


Drove poorly on day 1.
Tested out the virgin rain tires on day 2.
Spun 3 of my 6 runs. Coned 2 of the other 3 runs.

Have maybe almost contemplated quitting autocross since then.

Not your weekend. You know you normally kick butt and finish close to Clint's times, +/-, but it's time consuming to do right, & you could bail with pride. The 2 years I won my class I never ran in the rain (luckily my #1 competitor didn't do rain either), and never did any of my decade of HPDE's in the rain. I did have an instructor for laps around a track's constant radius, wetted loop in their rwd car .. fun but not fruitful.

I do suspect a little less rear bar would have helped you avoiding those spins.


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 Old 09-17-2018, 05:47 AM   #1106
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I do suspect a little less rear bar would have helped you avoiding those spins.
Me too, so I unhooked it before her first run. We took Hoosier's recommendation of running the wets slightly higher by 2-4psi. I went on the low side only adding 2psi over our normal cold pressures, and it sucked. 2nd run I dropped them by around 5psi front and rear and it was better, then dropped them another 3-4 for the last run and it was better.

It was not the place to do it, but it was a learning experience. Had it been slightly warmer out (it was in the 70's) and with more water on the ground (it wasn't puddling, yet), higher pressure may have been ok. But, with the surface just barely glistening with water and the low temps, we needed the tires to roll to actually get the tread on the ground.
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 Old 09-18-2018, 03:25 PM   #1107
 
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 :

Originally Posted by KevinK2
.... We talked about the over-constraint at the (four) trailing arm attachment points, and perhaps both the toe-link and upper control arm could be dedicated to resisting the moment that changes camber, by using stiffer bushings on those two links (edit)
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
I never measured the stiffness, directly, only the effect on bump steer. One of my winter projects is to measure more of the bushings' stiffness...
The pics show a lot of camber change at the rear, where the lateral moment from the side load at contact patch, is resolved by a short lever arm via the upper & lower links, vs a much longer lever at the front. By "stiffer" I mean a soft poly, at a minimum of one end of the toe link, that is loaded more than the upper link.



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 Old 11-05-2018, 03:54 PM   #1108
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
Back from Nationals .......

I no longer have the stock rear ARB. I think I got rid of that in the move to Michigan.
Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
I still have my old rear ASB if that'll help. I don't have the bushings though.
Phate,

With all the effort you put into this DIY SCCA Solo National contender thread, it would be great to finally provide a real spring rate for the oem rear bar, with both oem and poly bushings. The rear bar has that severe hump to clear the rear diff, and the Puhn rate formula does not apply. Your measured rate was with an over-sized poly bushing, and not accurate. If time permitted, simple solid aluminum bushing blocks could be made (and sold) to get the actual Puhn type rate. This would provide another data point to determine the correction factor mentioned below. Aluminum bushing blocks are often found on race cars (including my GT-6 and they never squeaked).

I know you are busy, so I could provide the bushings, and Fstrnyou has generously offered the oem rear bar.

Effect of Pivot Bushing Flex, Front Bar

Pivot bushing flex allows the bar to take a degree or two of chassis lean, without flexing of the bar (aka rigid body bar motion).

When you bench tested the front bar, we found that the poly bushing flex reduced the Puhn equation value (no bushing flex assumed) by about 50% , as I recall. And the oem rubber bushings were not much softer.

So for a correction, based on just one data point, it could be K = R ^1.4, where:

R = ratio of (bar-end hole span)/(pivot bushing separation) = .6 for front bar
Kp = correction factor, for poly bushings, for Puhn rate.

Plugging in the numbers, K = (.6)^1.4 = .49 (approx., I can look up the actual values).

Hope you can work this in during the cold, winter months up there!


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 Old 11-09-2018, 08:31 AM   #1109
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No guarantees, and probably unlikely.

At the last autocross of the season, I blew a hole in the transmission. After tearing it down, I found the bolts that hold the new LSD halves together had all backed out. One of those caught an internal edge and popped a hole in the transmission case. Looks like there wasn't any loctite on these.

The good news is that the diff, itself, was ok internally and the external surface is just cosmetic damage. I'm replacing the bearings, one got chewed up pretty badly. I have a new used trans this time around and need to tear it down.


In other news, I'll likely be moving in the next month or two. Currently searching for a house with the intent of getting things settled in the next couple months. For now, that means I want the car running before the move so it's easier to transport.

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 Old 11-09-2018, 09:00 AM   #1110
 
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Dang man. Sorry to hear the bad news. Kinda looks like the bolts were overtorqued and pulled the threads out...but you said the diff is fine.
Loctite isn't always necessary, but is nice insurance to have. I didn't loctite my main studs, rod bolts, or head bolts. And those are things you never want to come loose on accident.

Where ya moving to?
Across the street? I can rule this out since you're wanting the car drivable.
Across the state?
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 Old 11-09-2018, 11:18 AM   #1111
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Dang man. Sorry to hear the bad news. Kinda looks like the bolts were overtorqued and pulled the threads out...
Don't think so. It looks more like the bolts got loose, backed out, and now the torque for one side's half shaft was taken in shear at the threads, flattening them all around as the bolt slowly turned. With those bolts properly torqued, this torsional shaft load (from the Torsen's internal gear thrust loads against that end cover) is taken by the frictional contact at the clamped interface, in compression. The bolts should just see constant preload tension, and no drive torque dynamic load ... I think.

Phate, I guess since this was a custom assembly, either the cover bolts were not properly torqued, not loctited if that's the norm, or least likely, there is some flex in the joint that worked the bolts loose. Those socket head cap screws, per ASTM A594, are 20% stronger than Grade 8's, and equal to metric 12.9's in strength but tougher, fyi.

You could see if the threads of the bad bolts mesh with new bolts, as a quick check against gross yielding.


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 Old 11-09-2018, 01:39 PM   #1112
 
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Ya sorry. Upon a closer review, it does appear like the bolt threads are worn flat.
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 Old 11-13-2018, 10:24 AM   #1113
 
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Default Transfer Case & Trans Gears, Stronger ?

I know this has been discussed before, based on gear failures, and I had brought up "shot-peening" as a way to improve strength. I have used this relatively inexpensive process to solve many industrial shafting failures in the past.

Just found this being used, with material changes, to upgrade gearboxes for professional track use of the 3rd gen Rx7, with reported success.

Phate, something to consider!

Close Ratio gear kit for Rx7, using shot peening:
https://osgiken.net/c-1280298-transm...gear-kits.html

This is the company I used, "metal improvement co", bought up by CW:
https://cwst.com/shot-peening/overview/


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 Old 11-13-2018, 11:24 AM   #1114
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Dang man. Sorry to hear the bad news. Kinda looks like the bolts were overtorqued and pulled the threads out...but you said the diff is fine.
Loctite isn't always necessary, but is nice insurance to have. I didn't loctite my main studs, rod bolts, or head bolts. And those are things you never want to come loose on accident.

Where ya moving to?
Across the street? I can rule this out since you're wanting the car drivable.
Across the state?
Across the country?
Just a little ways south/southwest, about 45 minutes away, to be more central for our jobs.



Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Don't think so. It looks more like the bolts got loose, backed out, and now the torque for one side's half shaft was taken in shear at the threads, flattening them all around as the bolt slowly turned. With those bolts properly torqued, this torsional shaft load (from the Torsen's internal gear thrust loads against that end cover) is taken by the frictional contact at the clamped interface, in compression. The bolts should just see constant preload tension, and no drive torque dynamic load ... I think.

Phate, I guess since this was a custom assembly, either the cover bolts were not properly torqued, not loctited if that's the norm, or least likely, there is some flex in the joint that worked the bolts loose. Those socket head cap screws, per ASTM A594, are 20% stronger than Grade 8's, and equal to metric 12.9's in strength but tougher, fyi.

You could see if the threads of the bad bolts mesh with new bolts, as a quick check against gross yielding.
Agree on them simply coming loose. I didn't find loctite residue, and I didn't assemble the case before it went into the trans. So, I can't say for sure if they were all torqued properly, or not. They didn't yield - they all threaded ok for those last few good threads before the rolled over section.

Was talking to another friend/racer/machinist, and he mentioned some of his OEM Toyota differential materials specify high temperature loctite for the same application as this.

The joint is a tight fit - one channel running around the circumference, as well as a locating dowel in place of one bolt. You can see what look like two studs in this picture, but the right stud is actually the broken bolt, and the left stud is the dowel. But, with the bolts backing almost completely out, the diff halves probably had a lot of freedom to move relative to each other, regardless of fits.





Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I know this has been discussed before, based on gear failures, and I had brought up "shot-peening" as a way to improve strength. I have used this relatively inexpensive process to solve many industrial shafting failures in the past.

Just found this being used, with material changes, to upgrade gearboxes for professional track use of the 3rd gen Rx7, with reported success.

Phate, something to consider!

Close Ratio gear kit for Rx7, using shot peening:
https://osgiken.net/c-1280298-transm...gear-kits.html

This is the company I used, "metal improvement co", bought up by CW:
https://cwst.com/shot-peening/overview/
I didn't see any wear on the torsen gears or the diff and trans gears.
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 Old 11-15-2018, 09:37 AM   #1115
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
.... I didn't see any wear on the torsen gears or the diff and trans gears.
Peening would be to prevent fatigue failures at the root of the thread. Guess I was thinking of 4th gear failures for the Greek guy drag racing with ~700+hp on his AWD MS3.

No gear tooth failures, no need for shot peening. But if you ever do ...


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 Old 11-15-2018, 10:28 AM   #1116
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
They didn't yield - they all threaded ok for those last few good threads before the rolled over section.
I would not expect any yielding there. It would show up on the threaded section that is not initially engaged with female threads at torque-up. That's why I suggested trying to get a new bolt's thread to "seat" into the threads of the damaged bolt, placing them side by side. Or a caliper measurement. But just based on the visual, doesn't look like they were overtorqued, likely the opposite.

As Fastrnu said, loctite is not essential, and not used on rod & main caps, where high preload on high strength bolts are used.

Was talking to another friend/racer/machinist, and he mentioned some of his OEM Toyota differential materials specify high temperature loctite for the same application as this.
Would have to see if perhaps there was a unique reason for the loctite. I thought the shop made a few of these special MS6 front Torsens ... any chance of having the bolt torque checked on these? .. and seeing if they were supposed to be loctited ? The basic design is the same as there standard Type-1 or Type-2 units, so you could ask the Torsen manufacturer if loctite was required ?

You did not have many races on this unit, and the car is trailered to the tracks, so it may have been loosening up from the start, most likely because these very high strength bolts were not properly preloaded, or, there was a design flaw that prevented that side cover from seating properly against the main diff housing. You have to double check their design work. Compare with prior oem rear diff failure:

"As expected, problems in the rear diff. The clutch plates broke a tab off on each side. They probably got wedged in and locked the diff solid for it to exhibit the behavior that it did.

This diff had 72k miles on it and roughly 700 autocross/drag strip runs."

I assume the 6 spring washers on your finger, go on the ends of the 6 outer gears that are not in hard contact with that cover plate, to remove float?


.
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 Old 11-15-2018, 10:58 AM   #1117
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I would not expect any yielding there. It would show up on the threaded section that is not initially engaged with female threads at torque-up. That's why I suggested trying to get a new bolt's thread to "seat" into the threads of the damaged bolt, placing them side by side. Or a caliper measurement. But just based on the visual, doesn't look like they were overtorqued, likely the opposite.

As Fastrnu said, loctite is not essential, and not used on rod & main caps, where high preload on high strength bolts are used.
The torque used on those bolts was 30 lbft. That seemed reasonable, to me. The old bolts were sent back with the diff to the shop for inspection. Decided we could use 5mm longer bolts, so I'm wondering if there wasn't sufficient engagement with the first bolts.



Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Would have to see if perhaps there was a unique reason for the loctite. I thought the shop made a few of these special MS6 front Torsens ... any chance of having the bolt torque checked on these? .. and seeing if they were supposed to be loctited ? The basic design is the same as there standard Type-1 or Type-2 units, so you could ask the Torsen manufacturer if loctite was required ?

You did not have many races on this unit, and the car is trailered to the tracks, so it may have been loosening up from the start, most likely because these very high strength bolts were not properly preloaded, or, there was a design flaw that prevented that side cover from seating properly against the main diff housing. You have to double check their design work.
I let the other 2 guys know. 1 is not likely coming back out of the trans in the short term, and the other guy just had a baby. So we probably won't find out any time soon.

The diff shop said they were supposed to be loctited. The diff halves seem to seat completely, so I don't think that is it.



Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I assume the 6 spring washers on your finger, go on the ends of the 6 outer gears that are not in hard contact with that cover plate, to remove float?
They sit between the axle gears (side gears - the ones the axles spline to), and remove some float and offer some preload. I've attached an image that shows the breakdown series so you can see how they fit into the diff.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Diff.jpg (888.0 KB, 10 views)
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 Old 11-15-2018, 01:09 PM   #1118
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
The torque used on those bolts was 30 lbft. That seemed reasonable, to me. The old bolts were sent back with the diff to the shop for inspection. Decided we could use 5mm longer bolts, so I'm wondering if there wasn't sufficient engagement with the first bolts.
The rule of thumb is 1*D min engagement, 1.5*D max used even if longer, assuming bolt modestly stronger than tapped material. What was the bolt dia/pitch, like M10 x 1.25 ?

This is a great bolt preload calculator that is very accurate (consistent with a spreadsheet I had already tediously made), but it's not for metric. Still can learn from it:
UN Bolt Calculator

They sit between the axle gears (side gears - the ones the axles spline to), and remove some float and offer some preload. I've attached an image that shows the breakdown series so you can see how they fit into the diff.
I see the washers go in the middle, thanks for the pics!

How did the diff oil look, blackish?

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 Old 11-16-2018, 05:39 AM   #1119
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
The rule of thumb is 1*D min engagement, 1.5*D max used even if longer, assuming bolt modestly stronger than tapped material. What was the bolt dia/pitch, like M10 x 1.25 ?

This is a great bolt preload calculator that is very accurate (consistent with a spreadsheet I had already tediously made), but it's not for metric. Still can learn from it:
UN Bolt Calculator
The bolts were M8x1.25.


That's a nice calculator, thanks.


Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I see the washers go in the middle, thanks for the pics!

How did the diff oil look, blackish?

.
I'd say it was a light brown, with a heavy aluminum colored tint with some chunks of aluminum for added effect.

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 Old 11-16-2018, 01:18 PM   #1120
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
The bolts were M8x1.25.

... I'd say it was a light brown, with a heavy aluminum colored tint with some chunks of aluminum for added effect.
Lots of life left in that oil, thanks for the pic.

30 ft-lbs sounds right for those 8mm SHCS, that have min tensile strength of 180,000 psi. The preload would be about 6500 lbs each, 71,000 total. If they were torqued close to this, they should not have come loose. Sounds like a major mistake by that shop, after all the good design work for the fit.


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