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MazdaSpeed 3/6 - Suspension & Brakes Discussion for suspension items like coilovers, springs, sway bars, mounts,chassis bracing and brakes.


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 Old 01-06-2015, 01:58 PM   #281
 
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Looking at the BMW example, I think his rate results will be high by a factor of 2. He said he used the polar moment of inertia pi R^4/2 , but it appears to be the area moment of inertia for bending pi R^4/4 .

.
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 Old 01-07-2015, 10:50 AM   #282
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I think bushing deflection is our answer (or most of it, anyway). When I first did the test with the front ARB and stock bushings, I didn't take bar height measurements. I plugged everything into Excel and came up with ~half the expected rate. That prompted me to redo the test, but taking bar height measures at the bushings.

So, we'll work with this very accurate MSPaint technical drawing (haha):



To calculate the angle of the bar in this plane is simple if we assume it rotates around the center of the bar:

θ = sin[<Deflection B> / 9.25 ]


We take that θ to calculate the vertical movement at the end of the bar:

θ' = sin( <vert comp> / 18.5 )

<vert comp> = 18.5 x asin( θ' )


Then we just take that vertical compensation figure and subtract it from the total deflection:

<total deflection> - <vert comp> = <true deflection>


And the (somewhat closer) "true bar rate" is just:

<true deflection> / load = bar linear rate (lb/in)


__________________________________________________ ______

With real numbers:

Deflection B = .2266"

θ = sin (.2266 / 9.25)
θ = 1.40°

<vert comp> = 18.5 x asin(1.40°)
<vert comp> = .4531"

<true deflection> = .998" - .4531"
<true deflection> = .5449"

bar linear rate = 204.8 lb / .5449"
bar linear rate = 376 lb/in



Seems a bit more realistic?
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 Old 01-07-2015, 11:38 AM   #283
 
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You have eliminated the effect of the bushings (nice work) so the test should match the Puhn calculations, and 376 is close to 414 lb/in from Puhn.

If both deflections at B & C are the same magnitude, the center pivot assumption is correct. What was the C dimension that went with the B ?

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 Old 01-16-2015, 12:31 PM   #284
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
I think bushing deflection is our answer (or most of it, anyway). When I first did the test with the front ARB and stock bushings, I didn't take bar height measurements. I plugged everything into Excel and came up with ~half the expected rate. That prompted me to redo the test, but taking bar height measures at the bushings.

So, we'll work with this very accurate MSPaint technical drawing (haha):

To calculate the angle of the bar in this plane is simple if we assume it rotates around the center of the bar:

θ = sin[<Deflection B> / 9.25 ]


We take that θ to calculate the vertical movement at the end of the bar:

θ' = sin( <vert comp> / 18.5 )

<vert comp> = 18.5 x asin( θ' )


Then we just take that vertical compensation figure and subtract it from the total deflection:

<total deflection> - <vert comp> = <true deflection>


And the (somewhat closer) "true bar rate" is just:

<true deflection> / load = bar linear rate (lb/in)


__________________________________________________ ______

With real numbers:

Deflection B = .2266"

θ = sin (.2266 / 9.25)
θ = 1.40°

<vert comp> = 18.5 x asin(1.40°)
<vert comp> = .4531"

<true deflection> = .998" - .4531"
<true deflection> = .5449"

bar linear rate = 204.8 lb / .5449"
bar linear rate = 376 lb/in



Seems a bit more realistic?
Was compensation (bushing deflection) vs load a linear plot, with no initial high deflection (ie, bushing was installed compressed by the clamped housing) ?

If so, and it's true for the proper sized urethane, then the Puhn or Staniforth rate should be softened with a correction factor accordingly. Your bench test is for the actual installed condition. In the case of my Triumph, the split aluminum housing would be close to the equation rates ... big difference.

.
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 Old 01-19-2015, 07:48 PM   #285
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Has anyone taken the isolators bolted to the upper control arms in the front off? I did and I don't notice a damn difference. How about the rears? I also took these off and don't notice even a slight increase in NVH anywhere.
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 Old 01-20-2015, 05:22 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Was compensation (bushing deflection) vs load a linear plot, with no initial high deflection (ie, bushing was installed compressed by the clamped housing) ?

If so, and it's true for the proper sized urethane, then the Puhn or Staniforth rate should be softened with a correction factor accordingly. Your bench test is for the actual installed condition. In the case of my Triumph, the split aluminum housing would be close to the equation rates ... big difference.

.
The rubber bushings were very close to linear. They had a fairly large deflection at each step, so it was pretty easy to see. The poly bushings didn't have near the deflection of the rubber, so I can't really say for sure. I would need more load/measurements to say for sure.

Originally Posted by Tomas View Post
Has anyone taken the isolators bolted to the upper control arms in the front off? I did and I don't notice a damn difference. How about the rears? I also took these off and don't notice even a slight increase in NVH anywhere.
My rear ones have been off since I got the car; I don't think they were ever there. The fronts were taken off when I put the WL bushings in. Same as you, I noticed no difference. Weight savings, lol.
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 Old 01-20-2015, 02:30 PM   #287
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
The rubber bushings were very close to linear. They had a fairly large deflection at each step, so it was pretty easy to see.
I had always assumed, based on other generic curves I had seen, that there would be a lot of initial deflection for rubber, then much less at higher loads. This would be consistent with having a soft comfortable effect for normal driving. Your test shows the oem rubber bushings behave in a linear way, and the poly's provide about a 9% gain in net bar stiffness across the load range.

In Puhn's and Staniforth's books, they noted that it was assumed the pivot bushing locations were pinned, with none of the bushing deflection you measured. So there could be a correction factor for the rubber bushings, when calculting sway bar stiffness. It would be one value for your bar and others around the same dia with similar bushing geometry, separation, and material. But likely a different de-rate value for other bars with much different variables.

Originally Posted by phate View Post
The poly bushings didn't have near the deflection of the rubber, so I can't really say for sure. I would need more load/measurements to say for sure.
That seem odd. The pinned at the bushing calculated rate is reduced by 50% by the rubber bushings, and you get 9% back with poly bushings, so the decrease in compression, from rubber to poly, for a given force is only 8% per my calculations. Ref Post # 269 ???

From the data you have, could you plot just the measured bushing deflection for the two Front ARB bushings, both rubber and poly ?

If you have the bench test set-up, when you have time, would you do the same tests for the rear bar, oem rubber and poly? It would be great to quantify the effect of poly vs rubber on oem bar to show the improvement in rate, as the separation of the bushins at the rear bar is smaller vs front bar, which magnifies any give in the bushings.

.... The fronts were taken off when I put the WL bushings in. Same as you, I noticed no difference. Weight savings, lol.
Yup, 9% increase in bar stiffness would be hard to feel

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 Old 01-20-2015, 02:39 PM   #288
 
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If you're going to take measurements of the bars again, is there any way you could rig up a dial indicator on the sway bar adjacent to the bushing and actually measure how much it's deflecting? Seems like minimal extra effort to get actual results on something that's been now spawned a page of discussion.
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 Old 01-20-2015, 03:22 PM   #289
 
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Phate recently did that and reported the results on the top of this page. But to verify table stiffness, I had suggested measuring the housing deflection relative to ground (or measuring the table directly, near the bushings ) . But I was not clear, and he answered a different question about housing distortion. My bad.

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 Old 01-20-2015, 03:38 PM   #290
 
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
Phate recently did that and reported the results on the top of this page. But to verify table stiffness, I had suggested measuring the housing deflection relative to ground (or measuring the table directly, near the bushings ) . But I was not clear, and he answered a different question about housing distortion. My bad.

.
Totally missed that part of the discussion....carry on.

*back to interested lurking*
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 Old 01-30-2015, 09:15 AM   #291
 
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Originally Posted by phate View Post
@Tomas;, I forgot to post this. Just a quick and dirty drawing of the second bar's potential location.

I was just switching to a softer rear bar on my Rx7, and noticed the lower endlink attaches to the lower shock/strut bolt, just like your design. I could check some measurments of this stud with integral nut and extended length for the endling attachment, if you wish. There are some used part sources. But you could always make this stud with a mid length nut Lock-tited on, etc.

On the plate for the pivot bushing, you could extend the side plate upward to allow 2 bolts on one side, to stabilize the mount against rotation about the single bolt shown.

The forces in the rear bar are small, so 1/8" plate sounds thick enough. I made my brackets for the Triumph out of thinner material.

That said, I bet you have about finished the fabrication
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 Old 02-01-2015, 09:49 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I was just switching to a softer rear bar on my Rx7, and noticed the lower endlink attaches to the lower shock/strut bolt, just like your design. I could check some measurments of this stud with integral nut and extended length for the endling attachment, if you wish. There are some used part sources. But you could always make this stud with a mid length nut Lock-tited on, etc.

On the plate for the pivot bushing, you could extend the side plate upward to allow 2 bolts on one side, to stabilize the mount against rotation about the single bolt shown.

The forces in the rear bar are small, so 1/8" plate sounds thick enough. I made my brackets for the Triumph out of thinner material.

That said, I bet you have about finished the fabrication
I'll probably just use 12mm rod ends in single shear, similar to what I made for the front. They were very inexpensive to make. Like you said, the forces at the end links are pretty small, so it shouldn't be an issue.

If my measurements are right, the brackets will sit right up against the bottom of the toe boxes flats, preventing rotation.

I'm triple checking my arm measurements and space restrictions today before finalizing. Should be 4-6 weeks from there, due to heat treatment.
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 Old 02-03-2015, 12:37 PM   #293
 
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My rear bar on the GT6 was only 9/16" dia, and long with a high MR, with low stress levels. So I bought either pre-heat treated or nomalized rod and welded the ends to 3/16" thk cs lever arms, with small penetration welds on both sides (rod extended slightly beyond arm thickness). No problems. If it were a front bar, I would have used a stronger design.
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 Old 02-21-2015, 11:27 AM   #294
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Had some luck finding bushings for the rear suspension:



Trailing arm:




^compared to the old shell



Upper Control Arm:











Lower Control Arm:








__________________________________________________ _______________________


Everything is from http://www.polyurethan.ru/ Yep, straight from Russia. I sent a few emails back and forth and they confirmed these work so I picked them up. They also confirmed some front suspension bushings they make will work, as well. Links to their site:

The three I have for the rear suspension:

Lower Control Arm

Upper Control Arm

Trailing Arm



Three more they confirmed will work, for the FRONT suspension:

I think this is for the rearward LCA (the curved one):
http://www.polyurethan.ru/product/sa...eski-4-06-321/

Forward control arm, inner:
http://www.polyurethan.ru/en/product...yj-4-06-19621/

Forward control arm, shock mount:
http://www.polyurethan.ru/en/product...yj-4-06-19641/



This one they did not confirm will work, but should, anyway:

Front upper control arm:
http://www.polyurethan.ru/en/product...-oba-4-06-137/


__________________________________________________ __________________________

You might be wondering about the ordering process and how safe it is. They accept PayPal only, so it's as safe as any transaction through PayPal is. That sealed the deal for me. They have two shipping options: EMS Express and Russian Post.

I went with EMS Express. They hand off to USPS state side and tracking works along the entire route. It took 10 days from the time I ordered to the time it was delivered. Shipping cost for all 10 of those bushings was ~$45. If you add it all up, I spent less than $150 including shipping on all of these bushings. Substantially less than what I paid for any of the WhiteLine stuff...

The hardware total was <$100, so no duty fees afaik. I'm not totally sure if there will be duty fees if you go above $100, so maybe do some searching around before putting in a big order.

They were pretty helpful through emails, so hit them up if you have any questions for them. The actual ordering process is not typical for an online store. You submit your order and put in all of your shipping info, select the shipping option, then wait for them to invoice you through PayPal after shipping is calculated. It was all pretty quick, just remember they're on the other side of the world so if you email during the day, you might get responses at odd hours. They were always pretty quick to reply, though.

__________________________________________________ __________________________

They don't make any bushings for the toe links, which is what I really wanted. BUT, the LCA bushings are a smaller diameter than the toe link bushings....so I might just make a sleeve for the toe links and use the LCA bushings in there.

I'll press these into my extra arms in the next few weeks.
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 Old 02-21-2015, 12:17 PM   #295
 
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Looks great. Not sure if they provide Mazda6 components, but this Rx7 guy found "Super Now" suspension bushing upgrade kit featuring metal spherical bearings.FD-rx7 pandazrx-time-attack-build I suspect very expensive.
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 Old 02-23-2015, 06:38 PM   #296
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Fuck datza baller RX7 build
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 Old 02-23-2015, 08:06 PM   #297
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$4k for that set of sphericals. Too rich for me (and not allowed), haha.




I'm going to make the ID of the toe links the same as the ID of the LCA's by pressing in some sleeves. This way I can run those poly LCA bushings in the toe links and leave the LCA bushings stock for now and swap in new ones later if needed. I cleaned up the ID of the bushings in the meantime.

The desired affect is to counter some of the geometric toe-in bump steer by allowing the LCA (stock bushings) to deflect inward under cornering load while holding the forward section of the trailing arm more rigidly (with the poly). I'll probably put a set of poly bushings in my extra set of LCA's and have them on stand by. If the car gets all loosey goosey from these changes (doubtful), I can throw them on the car to see if it neutralizes some of this affect.
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 Old 02-24-2015, 10:14 AM   #298
 
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I'm note sure, but just looking at the FSM for the similar M6, the linkage for the rear suspension is overconstrained. By that, I mean if spherical bearings were installed in the upper and lower control arms, and the trailing arm, that would be sufficient to control suspension motion. But if the toe-link were added with spherical bearings, that would cause a binding condition during suspension travel.

If so, Mazda may have used all rubber bushings to prevent this binding condition, and allow adjustment of toe and camber. It just means something to keep in mind while converting to poly bushings.

Urethanes engineering
Fig 5-7 show shore A vs shore D in durometer ratings. I think most "hard urethane" bushing ratings are shore-D . see fig 4.

http://Urethane Guide
See pg 38, & fig 5-24 for load / deflection for hard urethanes (shoreD).
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 Old 02-24-2015, 04:29 PM   #299
 
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Originally Posted by KevinK2 View Post
I'm note sure, but just looking at the FWM for the similar M6, the linkage for the rear suspension is overconstrained. By that, I mean if spherical bearings were installed in the upper and lower control arms, and the trailing arm, that would be sufficient to control suspension motion. But if the toe-link were added with spherical bearings, that would cause a binding condition during suspension travel.

If so, Mazda may have used all rubber bushings to prevent this binding condition, and allow adjustment of toe and camber. It just means something to keep in mind while converting to poly bushings.
Yup. They did this on the MS3 as well.
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 Old 02-24-2015, 06:03 PM   #300
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Some info from their site about hardness:

http://www.polyurethan.ru/en/article...ane/tvyordost/

http://www.polyurethan.ru/en/article...i-poliuretana/

[If it doesn't come up in English, there's a toggle in the upper right hand corner with a Russian flag.]





They aren't terribly hard bushings - in the 68-76A range for these. Maybe not even much stiffer than the stock rubber, but likely much stiffer than the current bushings with 160k miles on them.

If you haven't browsed their site, check out this design:

http://www.polyurethan.ru/en/article...-sajlentbloki/
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 Old 02-24-2015, 07:48 PM   #301
 
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They appear to have very good products, and know what they are doing. They are using hardness similar to the oem elastomer, as you noted, like standard tire hardness. As you figured, suspension bind will not be a problem. As a comparison, the sway bar bushings that come with the Whiteline rear bar are much harder, measured on the D scale.

They are molded onto the inner steel bushing, like oem. I'm not sure if a Prothane or Energy kit would have that ... I recall some with a loose inner collar. But like oem's, they should be tightened with the car resting on the tires, as you know.

One thing they do is eliminate some of the air gaps found on some suspension bushings, which would stiffen that type of bushing.
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 Old 02-25-2015, 05:04 AM   #302
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All of my whiteline bushings have a floating inner sleeve. We'll see how these hold up.

I haven't touched the whiteline bushings since I installed them over a year ago and haven't had any squeaking issues. I'll be swapping clutches in a couple weeks and plan to pull the arms off and relube them while the subframe is out of the car.

Also going to get the car realigned and corner balanced once all of the new hardware is in. Hopefully around March 10th, then it's the first autocrosses the 21st and 22nd of March. I have the new tires mounted already. I went with BFG Rivals even though I didn't love my last set. 245/40 was on close out at TireRack, so I grabbed a set while they were still in stock.
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 Old 02-25-2015, 09:42 AM   #303
 
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Even if it were possible for Whiteline to find a hard polyurethane mold to the inner steel tube, you would not want to because of the rotation required at those suspension joints.

If anyone does have poly bushings that squeak, I suggest Permatex antiseeze paste, carried by most hardware or parts stores. Squea free at RB bar bushings on my tracked car for ~1000 miles at HPDE's.

Are going to shave the BFG's? My Kumho Vitoracers only had minor tread on the inside edge, so I just had them "heat treated" ... letting them spin on a turning roller with some minimal load, per tirerack.

Any update on custom rear sway bar??
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 Old 02-28-2015, 02:56 PM   #304
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First ones in and they fit great.



I'm waiting on some pipe to get turned down to the size of the toe link receiver ID and then I'll cut and press them in along with the LCA bushings. Trailing arms will be pressed in when I can judge the necessary angle (so no preload at ride height). The week after next is when everything will get done.

No arb news. It's slow going.
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 Old 03-10-2015, 03:55 PM   #305
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UCA's are in with the new bushings, as well as the toe links. 800lb springs are in, also. The trailing arm bushings didn't work out. One pressed in perfectly, the other dropped right through. No measurable difference in the OD of the bushing sleeves, so the trailing arms were slightly different.

Pic showing all 3 changes:



Whiteline bar is also back in for now.



Alignment and corner balance tomorrow morning.
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 Old 03-10-2015, 04:55 PM   #306
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Is there a specific reason you chose the Whiteline sway bar?
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 Old 03-10-2015, 05:03 PM   #307
 
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Lack of choice/options....
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 Old 03-30-2015, 11:26 AM   #308
 
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man this thread is super... this sounds like the best and biggest bang for your buck on suspension for the ms6.... If you don't mind me askin @phate; what did FCM charge you for the bilsteins? did u provide the bilsteins originally? if so wat did u pay for those? im looking to possibly get close to mimicking your setup but more for mt. driving and mostly street use. Ive read the thread all the way and it seemed to show tht u said they were still pretty comfortable on the street.

Sorry for the personal financial questions just tryin to see if this kind of suspension build is within my realm... Fuckin drivetrain engineers over here analyzing everything. I would of had no idea where to start.

Great work, keep it up, this is the best
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 Old 03-30-2015, 11:39 AM   #309
 
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Shaikh charges $250 per corner to revalve, you supply your own shocks.
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 Old 03-30-2015, 11:41 AM   #310
 
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I don't know about the FCM part but i got my bilsteins from tirerack and they were very cheap.. I think 100 something for the rears and 160 ish for the fronts.
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 Old 03-30-2015, 11:48 AM   #311
 
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Thts a great price, so say for $500 a corner u can have custom valved bilsteins? Guess I need to read back through to see links for all the other stuff. It sucks bein overseas and bein diff hours, hard to call. Internet fuckin sucks here too.
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Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
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 Old 03-30-2015, 12:25 PM   #312
 
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It would be $1,000 for a revalve of all 4 corners + cost of shocks + shipping charges. Shaikh sleeps until like noon and works very late, I talked to him several times at midnight here in TX.
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 Old 03-30-2015, 01:08 PM   #313
 
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Yup, he does good work for sure, but 1000 for a revalve was too rich for me.
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 Old 03-31-2015, 12:38 AM   #314
 
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Where can u buy the stock bilstein b6s from??
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 Old 03-31-2015, 04:56 AM   #315
 
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Shock Warehouse is where I got mine from, they have the set of four currently priced at $475 & free shipping.


Bilstein - KYB - Rancho - Monroe - Edelbrock Automotive Truck Shocks and Struts - Shockwarehouse.com
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 Old 03-31-2015, 05:10 AM   #316
 
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I didn't see @phate; if u were using the blue springs up front as well or the QA1's... R u still running the 850F/1000R??? I also only see a 5" OD with a free length of 8" not 7" is this wat u meant or did u actually get 7"?
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Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
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Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna
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 Old 03-31-2015, 05:30 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by MSP611 View Post
I didn't see @phate; if u were using the blue springs up front as well or the QA1's... R u still running the 850F/1000R??? I also only see a 5" OD with a free length of 8" not 7" is this wat u meant or did u actually get 7"?
The fronts are just a regular 2.5" ID, 8" free length spring available from pretty much every spring manufacturer. I currently have 850# Eibachs up there.

The rears are SSS (blue coils) 5" OD, 7" free length springs. I think they're labeled as torque arm springs in their catalog on their site. I have 800's out back right now.

If you don't need 800#++ rear springs, the QA1's work great.
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 Old 03-31-2015, 06:30 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Code Monkey View Post
It would be $1,000 for a revalve of all 4 corners + cost of shocks + shipping charges. Shaikh sleeps until like noon and works very late, I talked to him several times at midnight here in TX.
Is that code word for "I had to do dishonorable things late at night to get my Bills revalved"?
Did he at least give your breakfast when he woke up at noon?
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 Old 03-31-2015, 08:53 AM   #319
 
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In case it's not clear about Bilsteins, the B6-HD and B8-SP versions are the same shocks for stiffer springs, but the B8 is also designed for ~30-50 mm drop. It has a shorter rod, and shorter stroke, and keeps the extended and compressed distance about the same with drop springs.
Bilstein FAQs


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 Old 03-31-2015, 09:02 AM   #320
 
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I know I will be a lil heavier than you when I do my corner balance becuz I will be full interior with some bracing minus some weight obviously from cats and a couple extra things but prob pretty close to stock, so im thinkin of doin minimum 850sF/900sR or so in the rear....

Also other than the bump travel measurements I thought u needed a longer spring for the available 12" or so of full travel?... im sure im getting something wrong and my numbers r off, but jw why the choice of the 7" spring exactly

so technically @KevinK2; it would give you a lil more low? The real question is in the extra 30-50mm lowering r u wasting the space just for looks with less actual function?
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Suspenion/Bracing: Sonic tuning CO's revalved by Feal Suspension, QA1 600lb rear springs, 750lb front Swift springs,AWR front and rear sway bar endlinks,Whiteline RSB,SPC front adjustable ball joints,GT spec ladder brace,SU rear interior brace,NRG harness bar.
Drivetrain:SS brake lines,SS clutch line,Carbotech ax6 F&R, Southbend STG 3 endurance clutch and flywheel,SU rear diff mount,SU front rear diff mount,SP63 TC caps,DSS rear axles,AWR Trilogy mounts 70A,Hubcentric centering rings,2" brake ducting F&R,TWM STS stg 1 with bushing kit
Interior:Redline custom shift boot,Redline custom steering wheel cover,Redline custom ebrake handle cover Bride Stradia V.2 rep seats,Corbeau seat brackets,JBR heavy shift knob,Custom LED gauge cluster,Custom Steering column dual gauge pod,AEM wideband failsafe,AEM oil pressure gauge,Schrothe Rallye 4 harnesses,Escort 9500ix with mirror mount and hard wired with external controller,DIY ipod adapter.
Exterior: STI front lip,Enkei PF01SS 17x9 +48 wrapped in Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's 245/45/17,Full clear bra,Muteki SR48 blue locking lug nuts,RHO side plate mount,Smoked side markers, Shark fin antenna

Last edited by MSP611; 03-31-2015 at 09:02 AM. Reason: MSF Database - Automerged Doublepost
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