Another Smoking Issue Thread

[arrestmered07]

Hi Guys,

My boyfriend does all of the work to my car and ever since the downpipe install I've had the "smoking issue" that I know many others have had too. I have heard that upgrading the fuel pump internals fixes this problem from a couple other mazda owners but my boyfriend is not convinced that the fuel pump has anything to do with the issue and therefore won't fix my problem. I have already purchased an oil restrictor bolt which my bf installed but it didn't help my problem. The next step is to purchase an access port so that we can raise the idle to try to fix the problem. If that doesn't fix it then I'm honestly not sure what I'm going to do.

Does anyone have any recommendations on where I should look for an access port for a good price? I'm willing to purchase a used one as well if anyone knows someone selling one.

Also has anyone else heard that upgrading the internals to fix the smoking turbo problem? I have already had the PCV system replaced under warranty by mazda which included the new valve cover and all that to attempt to fix this issue but I'm still smoking after idling for a while. If you are curious I previously recorded it here on youtube.

[Link: http://youtu.be/x3OrwdB0EUI

Any help is much appreciated.

Thank you!

[speed23]

Fuel pump has nothing to do with smoking. Raise the idle with an AP. You can buy them on here once you become a member (then you can see the for sale section). welcome!

[Poohster]

Smoke at idle fixes, my thoughts and notes

Long history. Reducing back pressure increases likihood of turbo smoking. Oil is seeping through the turbo seals and into the exhaust.

[arrestmered07]

Originally Posted by speed23 Fuel pump has nothing to do with smoking. Raise the idle with an AP. You can buy them on here once you become a member (then you can see the for sale section).

Thank you! That is what I'm going with. I will work on becoming a member I wasn't sure where the for sale section was. My bf was telling me to look there but this is really the first time I've ever used the forum.

Originally Posted by Poohster Smoke at idle fixes, my thoughts and notes Long history. Reducing back pressure increases likihood of turbo smoking. Oil is seeping through the turbo seals and into the exhaust.

Yea that is what everyone has told me, I know that is the problem I just heard from someone yesterday that that would fix the problem. I'm def looking into buying an AP now.

[Sid3wayS]

Use rotella t6 oil. It is thicker and will not seep thru the seals as easily. Also if you have a dp installed you might want to get something to monitor your fuel presaure.

[TiGraySpeed6]

Two ways of addressing the smoking stock K04 turbo-
1) Guaranteed permanent fix- change turbos to a design that doesn't smoke
-or-
2) thoroughly address the symptoms-
-A) Raise idle
-B) Better quality, heavier oil (Shell Rotella T6 5w40)
-C) Oil Restrictor Bolt, often referred to here as the 'bnoon bolt'

Higher idle speed increases vacuum at idle to help pull oil ffrom the turbo
Better, thicker oil helps keep it from pushing through the seals
Oil restrictor bolt to prevent excessive amount of oil in turbo so the first two work even better.

Is a three legged stool, and needs all three to balance properly.

[arrestmered07]

Originally Posted by Sid3wayS Use rotella t6 oil. It is thicker and will not seep thru the seals as easily. Also if you have a dp installed you might want to get something to monitor your fuel presaure.

Thanks, I'll look into that Oil. I currently use 5w-30 Mobil One Synthetic.

[Sid3wayS]

Originally Posted by arrestmered07 Thanks, I'll look into that Oil. I currently use 5w-30 Mobil One Synthetic.

Yeah you might want to change. It is super thin oil that shears quickly and is prone to oil dilution. It really is the worst choice for a disi motor. Switch over and Im sure the smoking will be instantly gone. A local here decided to switch to mobil for some reason and he had the whole smoke screen in affect. Switched to rotella and on first crank left his car idleinf for an hour because he could not believe fixxed it that easily and quickely.

[arrestmered07]

Originally Posted by Sid3wayS Yeah you might want to change. It is super thin oil that shears quickly and is prone to oil dilution. It really is the worst choice for a disi motor. Switch over and Im sure the smoking will be instantly gone. A local here decided to switch to mobil for some reason and he had the whole smoke screen in affect. Switched to rotella and on first crank left his car idleinf for an hour because he could not believe fixxed it that easily and quickely.

What weight do you use/recommend?

[Sid3wayS]

Used by almost everyone here is the blue/purple bottle labled t6 I think it's 5w-40. It says on the package that it is for diesel and the guy behind the counter will probably try to talk you out of it but dont let it bother you.

[arrestmered07]

Originally Posted by Sid3wayS Used by almost everyone here is the blue/purple bottle labled t6 I think it's 5w-40. It says on the package that it is for diesel and the guy behind the counter will probably try to talk you out of it but dont let it bother you.

Okay cool, I will get this for my next oil change then.

Thank you!

[tastysi2004]

the bnoon bolt helped me with that issue. also, i have a cpe catless. the cobb ap will do wonders for you. after the AP, upgrade the rmm and see if you can get it tuned by the tuners here, the over the shelf tunes that cobb provides arent the best but is good for beginer users and beginer tuners-(in my opinion).
lastly, welcome

[tddvrrn]

hey, just a heads up: you probably will want fp internals..

you had dp/internals linked in your mind because adding a dp usually increases the airflow, which increases fuel demand. this can max out your fuel pump's ability to keep up with demand, hence the rule of thumb on here that, when you get a dp, you usually need fp internals as well.. i'm sure you read that, but forgot exactly why the fp and dp were linked..

an ap is a great idea for you, though. with the dp/intake/fmic, you really should have a tune..

[bigriver]

1. Get AP and fuel pump internals, then tune.

2. Stop listening to your boyfriend when it comes to your car.

3. Donate

4. Meet up with local nator guys so they can help you fix it. Especially if you need new seals.

[arrestmered07]

Originally Posted by tddvrrn hey, just a heads up: you probably will want fp internals.. you had dp/internals linked in your mind because adding a dp usually increases the airflow, which increases fuel demand. this can max out your fuel pump's ability to keep up with demand, hence the rule of thumb on here that, when you get a dp, you usually need fp internals as well.. i'm sure you read that, but forgot exactly why the fp and dp were linked.. an ap is a great idea for you, though. with the dp/intake/fmic, you really should have a tune..

Thank you for the response, but I've got a question about this. In order to need more fuel you have to increase the air flow into the engine, I get that, but replacing the exhaust doesn't have anything to do with air getting in, it helps air get out. It doesn't seem like the down pipe should have any effect on getting air into the engine so how does this increase the fuel demand?

I just heard from someone who I briefly described my problem too that internals would fix the smoking issue that is why I posted the original question.

&& my Access port came in the other day I'm going to raise the idle and see if that fixes my problem. After that I do plan on upgrading the fuel pump internals and getting it tuned. Those are on my list for sure.

Thanks!

[speedms6]

read post 50 in this, and post 52 has pics, this has worked for me, smoked like it did for a couple weeks after i installed it, then completely went away and has not come back since no matter how long i idle for or how long/hard i drive it for

smoothing out my tune

i only installed the one on top from the valve cover vent since i have an OCC with a check valve already

[bigriver]

Originally Posted by arrestmered07 Thank you for the response, but I've got a question about this. In order to need more fuel you have to increase the air flow into the engine, I get that, but replacing the exhaust doesn't have anything to do with air getting in, it helps air get out. It doesn't seem like the down pipe should have any effect on getting air into the engine so how does this increase the fuel demand? I just heard from someone who I briefly described my problem too that internals would fix the smoking issue that is why I posted the original question. && my Access port came in the other day I'm going to raise the idle and see if that fixes my problem. After that I do plan on upgrading the fuel pump internals and getting it tuned. Those are on my list for sure. Thanks!

The catalytic converter in oem dp restricts airflow and creates backpressure on the injector seals to keep oil out. A catless dp or one with a high flow cat significantly eliminates this backpressure which creates the potential for oil to get past the seals and go into the cylinders. If you Google on how an internal combustion engine works, this will make more sense.

Just do what we are telling you to do before you blow shit up.

[speedms6]

Originally Posted by bigriver The catalytic converter in oem dp restricts airflow and creates backpressure on the injector seals to keep oil out. A catless dp or one with a high flow cat significantly eliminates this backpressure which creates the potential for oil to get past the seals and go into the cylinders. If you Google on how an internal combustion engine works, this will make more sense. Just do what we are telling you to do before you blow shit up.

this is wrong.

yes it does reduce back pressure, but this doesnt have anything to do with injector seals.

it has to do with turbo seals and the crankcase venting system. you're turbo smoking at idle after a min or so is not going to cause you to blow up, it will just cause your engine to get dirty and lose power. injector seals dont have anything to do with oil. the help keep combustion chamber pressure, which in turn will help piston rings seal better as well as having a good working crankcase venting set up that keeps the crankcase in vacuum.

[bigriver]

Originally Posted by speedms6 this is wrong. yes it does reduce back pressure, but this doesnt have anything to do with injector seals. it has to do with turbo seals and the crankcase venting system. you're turbo smoking at idle after a min or so is not going to cause you to blow up, it will just cause your engine to get dirty and lose power. injector seals dont have anything to do with oil. the help keep combustion chamber pressure, which in turn will help piston rings seal better as well as having a good working crankcase venting set up that keeps the crankcase in vacuum.

Thanks for the correction!

[tddvrrn]

Originally Posted by arrestmered07 Thank you for the response, but I've got a question about this. In order to need more fuel you have to increase the air flow into the engine, I get that, but replacing the exhaust doesn't have anything to do with air getting in, it helps air get out. It doesn't seem like the down pipe should have any effect on getting air into the engine so how does this increase the fuel demand?

if you think of the engine as a giant air pump, which it kinda is, it sucks air in, burns the fuel and air together and then pumps it out. if you restrict any part of the pathway, it will reduce the overall flow of the system. in the simplest terms, it can only take as much air in as it can blow out. and the downpipe lets it blow out a whole lot more air, since the cats are no longer restricting flow.

so, if you open up the exhaust and that was the point of restriction in the system, it will increase airflow throughout the whole system up to the level where the next limiting factor is.

does that make sense?

[arrestmered07]

I've got my access port and the ATR I'm just not exactly sure what I'm supposed to change to raise my idle. Anyone know where I can find a thread on how to do this, or have tips? I have tried searching but most people just say raise the idle and I haven't found details on how to do that yet. I attached a picture of what I'm looking at. Thanks again for the help & direction.

[BigBoost]

Originally Posted by bigriver 1. Get AP and fuel pump internals, then tune. 2. Stop listening to your boyfriend when it comes to your car. 3. Donate 4. Meet up with local nator guys so they can help you fix it. Especially if you need new seals.

Originally Posted by bigriver The catalytic converter in oem dp restricts airflow and creates backpressure on the injector seals to keep oil out. A catless dp or one with a high flow cat significantly eliminates this backpressure which creates the potential for oil to get past the seals and go into the cylinders. If you Google on how an internal combustion engine works, this will make more sense. Just do what we are telling you to do before you blow shit up.

I'll be polite since I don't post here really, just read, but I love it, you tell her not to listen to me, but just by the following post it's easy to see how much anyone should listen to you. Fortunately someone else came in and corrected your complete fallacy of a post.

Then you make demands to donate, when your advice wasn't worth .02

I don't claim to know a ton about these direct injection engines, but I certainly know that a fuel pump isn't going to solve oil being pushed past the shaft seals. Or that a backpressure has anything to do with oil leaking past injector seals..

I was really surprised/disappointed when the restrictor bolt didn't fix the problem, but hopefully adjusting the idle with AP today will.

Thank you to everyone else who actually had valuable input to the situation, these cars seem to not follow the path of "conventional" tuner cars..

[TiGraySpeed6]

<<sigh>>
for the 9,264,721st time

- DI engines have a high pressure fuel pump since we run 1700-1800 PSI at WOT
- the OEM HPFP is pretty much maxed out in stock trim
- adding a DP is a known killer of the HPFP as it allows enough air flow to require more fuel than the OEM HPFP can handle.


Add to that the K04 turbo relies on back pressure to maintain seal integrity and prevent oil seepage.

So, having a DP can & will cause problems with the HPFP and trigger the smoke symptoms.


To resolve the smoking symptoms there are two things to do
1) replace the turbo with a design that does not smoke
-or-
2) address the symptom with three steps
2a - raise idle for higher vacuum at idle
2b - use high quality thicker oil such as Shell Rotella T6 5w40
2c - use a better design of oil restrictor bolt

Higher vacuum to pull oil out better at idle
better thyicker oil to help prevent seeping past the seals
bolt to help prevent excess oil to begin with.


So, you can see that these things are indeed tied together
you can also see that this ain't your momma's small block.

Learn the platform, or step away before you blow her engine.

.

[BigBoost]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 <<sigh>> for the 9,264,721st time - DI engines have a high pressure fuel pump since we run 1700-1800 PSI at WOT - the OEM HPFP is pretty much maxed out in stock trim - adding a DP is a known killer of the HPFP as it allows enough air flow to require more fuel than the OEM HPFP can handle. Add to that the K04 turbo relies on back pressure to maintain seal integrity and prevent oil seepage. So, having a DP can & will cause problems with the HPFP and trigger the smoke symptoms. To resolve the smoking symptoms there are two things to do 1) replace the turbo with a design that does not smoke -or- 2) address the symptom with three steps 2a - raise idle for higher vacuum at idle 2b - use high quality thicker oil such as Shell Rotella T6 5w40 2c - use a better design of oil restrictor bolt Higher vacuum to pull oil out better at idle better thyicker oil to help prevent seeping past the seals bolt to help prevent excess oil to begin with. So, you can see that these things are indeed tied together you can also see that this ain't your momma's small block. Learn the platform, or step away before you blow her engine. .

1. I know that DI engines run excessive FP

2. Obviously the K04 has been used in plenty of cars before the MS3, all of which can run free flowing downpipes without smoking issues, it's Mazda's inability to remove oil from the turbo with vacuum alone. That's one of the first things I noticed about this car is how little vacuum it pulls at idle.


Now, no where did I question the fact of needing a new CDFP to account for the DP? I know that it's pretty much required. Some local with an MS3 is who told me to replace the CDFP to stop the car from smoking, so I'll pretty much refrain from listening to them.

I already read your first post, which I understand, and completely agree with so I don't know why you felt the need to post it again.

The only thing I pointed out was the guys post being completely wrong, which it was, as one of your other members corrected him.

Not sure why your getting all huffy, nothing I said was in any way directed at you.

And no SBC here bud

[TiGraySpeed6]

As your post reads currently I may indeed have been a bit quick on the trigger.

It's a common reaction unfortunately since so many expect this engine to follow normal behavior patterns only to discover the hard way that's not the case.

[BigBoost]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 As your post reads currently I may indeed have been a bit quick on the trigger. It's a common reaction unfortunately since so many expect this engine to follow normal behavior patterns only to discover the hard way that's not the case.

I know it shows that it's been edited but I assure you it was for a typo, I'm not here to act like I know everything, in reality its quite the opposite

But I understand, trust me, I was one of those that expected it as well, but I quickly learned that it unfortunately not the case.

I consider us lucky to have been running the car with the mods that it has for over a year without any problems(aside from the smoke).

[TiGraySpeed6]

Lolz- it's not an "unfortunately" thing- it's a good thing once you get over the learning curve....

Much like making the transition from carb to fuel injection, DI brings a lot of good things to the party. I suspect that if your TSi isn't a fluke, then once you get your head wrapped around the MZR engine you'll have a field day with it.

Should have been here 2, 3, 4 years ago..... The last year has been remarkably good to us, and there are great things going on. Not too mention some disturbingly talented folks in here

[BigBoost]

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Lolz- it's not an "unfortunately" thing- it's a good thing once you get over the learning curve.... Much like making the transition from carb to fuel injection, DI brings a lot of good things to the party. I suspect that if your TSi isn't a fluke, then once you get your head wrapped around the MZR engine you'll have a field day with it. Should have been here 2, 3, 4 years ago..... The last year has been remarkably good to us, and there are great things going on. Not too mention some disturbingly talented folks in here

I agree, I think that for what the MS3 is out of the box is pretty impressive for a 2.3 on a tiny turbo. I've never really owned a car on the " bleeding edge " of new tech so I'm sure the curve is something to overcome, and having to deal with a relatively limited aftermarket is certainly a challenge as well.

I've just always questioned their ability to handle massive power on the stock bottom end, and with a lack of any aftermarket injectors (for now at least, temporary I'm sure) it's got to be difficult to make big power, unless you can do it with fuel pressure alone. (Which for all I know you can)

Not only that but the 2-3-4 years ago you mention, I was reading forums/interwebz of these things going tits up left and right in stock or virtually stock trim so I never really gave them much thought and cast them aside as "weak". It's good to see that the following is large enough to drive new innovations/solutions to their inherit challenges.

[ms3rick]

Originally Posted by arrestmered07 I've got my access port and the ATR I'm just not exactly sure what I'm supposed to change to raise my idle. Anyone know where I can find a thread on how to do this, or have tips? I have tried searching but most people just say raise the idle and I haven't found details on how to do that yet. I attached a picture of what I'm looking at. Thanks again for the help & direction.

Any one!!?


Sent from my dizzLe using RaWr powers!

[TiGraySpeed6]

Yeah, setting the idle it can be tough-
the idle tables in ATR are craftily hidden away in a folder called, get this, Idle Tables

I know, crazy right?


4 tables to change
Idle Base AC - A (set all cells to 900)
Idle Base AC - B (set all cells to 900)
Idle Speeds Base - A (replace lowest 3 cells with 900)
Idle Speeds Base - B (replace lowest 3 cells with 900)

Save map, load new map to AP, flash car

easy peasy

[RoyalDex]

I wish I could mount my old E16g turbo from my talon

It sits in my trunk to remind me of faster days

[CW42]

Do you have the ventilation upgrade that Mazda officially offered to fix the smoking problem? Mine was smoking at idle but once they put on the new ventilation kit it stopped and hasn't smoked since. That was 8 months ago. I'm going to assume that any mods keep that "fix" from being effective though?

[arrestmered07]

Originally Posted by CW42 Do you have the ventilation upgrade that Mazda officially offered to fix the smoking problem? Mine was smoking at idle but once they put on the new ventilation kit it stopped and hasn't smoked since. That was 8 months ago. I'm going to assume that any mods keep that "fix" from being effective though?

I do have the pcv fix from mazda however it didn't help my smoking problem with the mods.

[arrestmered07]

I have flashed the ECU and raised the idle to 1100RPM in the Idle Base AC - A and AC - B tables and I changed the lowest numbers in the Idle Speeds Base - A and Base - B to 1100RPM && amazingly, I still smoke. I also did an oil change the other day I am using Rotella T6 oil and I still get the smoke at idle when the compressor kicks on. It seems to be at 17vac it smokes but when I shut off the air it goes to 20vac and stops smoking. I'm ordering a fuel pump this week (taking suggestions on which brand to get) and I'm looking into upgrading my turbo since I believe that will fix my problem.