HPFP issues on WOT pull - with swapped internals

[LilGator]

Swapped internals (Autotech). This was a few hundred miles ago. Using the AP to monitor, everything seemed normal. Beginning to have Lex work on a tune, got a WOT log (didn't get a chance to monitor during the pull) and took a look later when I got home. Dipped down to 700psi, average over the WOT was 1100psi. Log attached.

Monitoring a few trips back and forth from work since that pull, everything seems normal. Peaks at upper 1800's, doesn't drop below 1800psi until I let off the throttle. This is no more than 3-4 seconds at a time- bit paranoid. But even still, I never saw 1800psi in the WOT log until my foot was off the pedal at the end of the log!

How best should I troubleshoot? I'm not sure how to reproduce, and probably shouldn't be doing WOT pulls?

phate

[TWOptSL0W]

Did you properly install them? Clean with gas, soak in oil, assemble in oil, then break in properly?

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W Did you properly install them? Clean with gas, soak in oil, assemble in oil, then break in properly?

Check, check, check. What is the break in procedure? I primed by starting with gas pedal to the floor- didn't see anything about break in?

[TWOptSL0W]

let idle until you get to operating temperature and then take it easy for at least a hundred miles....or did you go WOT right away

[phate]

Did you happen to pull the spill valve off when you did the internals? If so, did you tighten it down to the exact spot as before?

I would first check the internals for scuffing. If no scuffs, then I would look into the relief valve.

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W let idle until you get to operating temperature and then take it easy for at least a hundred miles....or did you go WOT right away

Idled and took it easy, but no I didn't wait a hundred miles to go WOT.

Originally Posted by phate Did you happen to pull the spill valve off when you did the internals? If so, did you tighten it down to the exact spot as before? I would first check the internals for scuffing. If no scuffs, then I would look into the relief valve.

As far as I recall I didn't touch the spill relief valve at all. I'll pull 'er out and check both. Thanks.

[LilGator]

Pulled pump and checked out the internals, looked like they did out of the box, no scuffing. The relief valve never got touched, and checking it out doesn't look like I can tighten it any more than it was.

Re-soaked the internals in gasoline, cleaned and coated in fresh oil. Reassembled, idled and i'll take it easy for a while and get a new WOT pull and see what we're looking at.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by LilGator Pulled pump and checked out the internals, looked like they did out of the box, no scuffing. The relief valve never got touched, and checking it out doesn't look like I can tighten it any more than it was. Re-soaked the internals in gasoline, cleaned and coated in fresh oil. Reassembled, idled and i'll take it easy for a while and get a new WOT pull and see what we're looking at.

You don't have to go full WOT to see that they hold pressure. In the last log you sent me pressure was low from the beginning and did not hit targets. Ease into the throttle watching pressure ramp up and if all is well become more and more aggressive with the throttle. Pressure once it climbs above 1.00 load or so should be no lower than 1700 psi.

[scubasteve711]

Originally Posted by LilGator Check, check, check. What is the break in procedure? I primed by starting with gas pedal to the floor- didn't see anything about break in?

@56k when I put my autotechs in, the spill valve area was pretty clean. I pulled it off and cleaned it up anyways, but it was more or less a waste of time. We have had 10% ethanol fuel up here for years now for what that is worth.

** When you put this thing back together, let the system prime via the fuel pump - cycle the key on, wait about 5 seconds, turn it off. Repeat a few times. **

Edit... day late, dollar short... Sorry - this for some reason didn't post up last night and I found it tonight....

BTW relief valve is on the fuel rail... My car is currently at the dealer (extended warranty might as well use it) getting the fuel rail done and hopefully the valves cleaned when they inspect them (while its all apart) to replace the failed relief valve.

[speedms6]

just an idea, bc this all seems odd, but did you kink any of the hardlines?

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by Lex You don't have to go full WOT to see that they hold pressure. In the last log you sent me pressure was low from the beginning and did not hit targets. Ease into the throttle watching pressure ramp up and if all is well become more and more aggressive with the throttle. Pressure once it climbs above 1.00 load or so should be no lower than 1700 psi.

I gave it a little bit last night easing into it, and it seemed worse holding pressure than it was before. This morning on the way to work it seemed OK, 1700-1800psi fairly aggressive but not near WOT. I didn't do much with it, but didn't notice any dips. Scared to push any more.

Originally Posted by scubasteve711 @56k when I put my autotechs in, the spill valve area was pretty clean. I pulled it off and cleaned it up anyways, but it was more or less a waste of time. We have had 10% ethanol fuel up here for years now for what that is worth. ** When you put this thing back together, let the system prime via the fuel pump - cycle the key on, wait about 5 seconds, turn it off. Repeat a few times. ** Edit... day late, dollar short... Sorry - this for some reason didn't post up last night and I found it tonight.... BTW relief valve is on the fuel rail... My car is currently at the dealer (extended warranty might as well use it) getting the fuel rail done and hopefully the valves cleaned when they inspect them (while its all apart) to replace the failed relief valve.

I let it prime a couple times cycling the key (heard it) and also attempting to start with gas pedal on the floor.

OK, so spill valve is on the pump itself. Relief valve is here: HOW-TO: Replace Relief Valve (RV)

I don't know why anything would have changed there but I'll take a look.

According to this the test for relief valve is monitoring AP pressure while the car is off? Fuel Pressure Relief Valve Question

Of course that thread ended with suggestions to get new internals. I thought I'd skip the PTP / KMD nonsense and go straight to Autotechs...

Originally Posted by speedms6 just an idea, bc this all seems odd, but did you kink any of the hardlines?

I'll take a look and make sure.

[LilGator]

Monitor fuel pressure while the car is off (~30 minutes after it was running) started at 1233psi and slowly dropped at a rate of 30psi/min.

Edit:

Originally Posted by crazyp Remember guys, quick RV check is with the car off fuel pressure should be 900 psi or higher. If its 100 or lower its the RV

Originally Posted by event FP will go down after it sat for a while. With the car fully hot and off, it should reach 1800+ psi in a few minutes. It will eventually start going back down to 50-60 once everything cools off. If it only gets to 1600psi with everything FULLY hot, then it sounds like it may be the RV. Did your friends good RV not help?

I guess I can try looking at it after I just shut it off and watch to see if it climbs to 1800+psi.

[LilGator]

After ~10mins of driving watched the pressure with the car off and it climbed to 1774psi before turning around. I assume it's likely not the relief valve.

If it's not the relief valve, and not the spill valve, internals look fine...

[Lex]

What part is easiest for you to swap with a local speed3? A complete pump or the RV?

At least you'd isolate it to one issue or the other. Don't swap internals, swap the entire pump itself.

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by Lex What part is easiest for you to swap with a local speed3? A complete pump or the RV? At least you'd isolate it to one issue or the other. Don't swap internals, swap the entire pump itself.

Did the same test this morning after driving in to work ("fully hot") and it climbed to the exact same pressure 1774psi before turning around.

The how-to for RV doesn't look terribly difficult, but getting the pump out is only a ~10min job really.

I'm pretty tempted to order an upgraded RV and cp-e pump just to swap one at a time and test both ways. But now I'm reading about the in-tank pump and filter...

[LilGator]

This makes sense to me:

Originally Posted by G26 Basically yes it would cause it to wear out. Think about it, with the oem fuel pump, fuel pressure never goes beyond 1870 (oem valve open pressure). Now with internals when going wot, we pass 1870 a couple times a second, causing the valve to open and vent pressure. So we took something that is never supposed to open, and now we are cracking it open many times a second.

In that case, assuming it was good, when the car is off shouldn't pressure build to ~1870 before releasing?

And so if the pressure with swapped internals is over 1870 on pulls, but the relief valve is opening ~1774 that's where issues are arising?

I don't know if I'm looking at this right.

[G26]

I have my ptp relief valve for sale. Let me know.

[mituc]

FRP drop with aftermarket internals in good shape and decently clean spill valve may indicate some problems in the fuel tank (the ITFP or the fuel filter there).

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by G26 I have my ptp relief valve for sale. Let me know.

It sounds to me like from your description and other things I'm reading Autotech internals are typically going to give you many spikes over the ~1850psi the stock valve opens at. So no matter what it's probably going to wear eventually. I wonder why this isn't more common though?

I know there's no point in replacing it with another stock valve, so I'd go with the PTP anyway. I'll shoot you a PM about yours.

[G26]

Depends on other factors I guess, friend of mine had 75k on his stock relief valve, he installed auto techs and 1 week later the oem rv took a shit.

[EdgeAutosport.com]

Im guessing its the spill valve even if it looks good. I had a very similar problem as you OP swapped the spill valves and was good to go.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by eric@edgeautosport Im guessing its the spill valve even if it looks good. I had a very similar problem as you OP swapped the spill valves and was good to go.

Spill valve in the pump or relief valve in the rail?

[EdgeAutosport.com]

The spill valve

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by mituc FRP drop with aftermarket internals in good shape and decently clean spill valve may indicate some problems in the fuel tank (the ITFP or the fuel filter there).

That's what I'm not hoping for.

Originally Posted by G26 Depends on other factors I guess, friend of mine had 75k on his stock relief valve, he installed auto techs and 1 week later the oem rv took a shit.

Makes sense to me. Just saw you have the 2150 RV, seems everyone is having cut issues with that one. PTP Rail Valve for Gen2

That sucks. Getting a 1950psi upgraded valve is only 100psi over stock, but seems to be the only one working for most people.

I'm thinking I might just scrap plans and get a BRZ or gen coupe.


Kidding. Haha.

Should I pull off the spill valve and clean it, or just swap with another? Where can one be acquired?

[LilGator]

Sounds like I need to pick up another OEM pump to replace spill valve.

[LilGator]

Acquired a new OEM pump. Swapped the Autotechs in and installed. Doesn't seem to be doing well, in fact it may be worse than it was. Monitoring I'm not even seeing pressures spike past the 1700's, much less hold pressure up to that point or higher.

Slowly accelerating to the 1300-1400 range and give it more throttle it dips to 1000 and lower. Just not holding.

Bit of driving log attached, and a little example here:

Time	Accel.	AFR	Boost	BAT	Load	HPFP Act.	HPFP Des.
278.98	0	26.07	-12.06	117.5	0.04	1144.31	291.52
279.12	9.75	26.18	-9.84	118.62	0.16	1087.74	430.75
279.26	14.82	18.95	-7.76	118.62	0.3	994.92	1025.38
279.42	14.82	15.16	-7.11	118.62	0.34	1105.15	1134.16
279.56	16.77	14.47	-6.03	118.62	0.36	1116.75	1224.08
279.72	20.67	14.47	-4.03	118.62	0.46	1255.98	1411.17
279.86	21.45	14.36	-4.6	118.62	0.47	1305.29	1451.78
280	23.4	14.24	-5.03	119.75	0.43	1325.6	1392.31
280.14	23.4	14.81	-3.02	119.75	0.53	1332.85	1521.39
280.28	23.79	14.7	-2.59	119.75	0.56	1392.31	1521.39
280.42	24.96	14.59	-2.02	119.75	0.62	1379.26	1550.4
280.56	26.52	14.59	-1.3	119.75	0.65	1386.51	1679.48
280.7	28.08	14.81	-0.22	119.75	0.69	1409.72	1808.56
280.86	31.2	14.13	0.92	119.75	0.81	1354.6	1808.56
281	31.98	13.9	2.29	119.75	0.85	1319.8	1808.56
281.14	32.76	13.55	3.51	119.75	0.97	1224.08	1808.56
281.28	33.15	12.98	4.29	119.75	1.01	1158.81	1808.56
281.44	33.93	13.55	5.23	119.75	1.05	1155.91	1808.56
281.58	35.88	13.44	5.73	119.75	1.07	1081.94	1808.56
281.74	35.88	13.09	5.8	119.75	1.11	1119.65	1808.56
281.88	35.49	12.4	5.8	118.62	1.11	1084.84	1808.56
282.04	35.49	12.29	5.87	118.62	1.11	1099.35	1808.56
282.2	35.49	12.17	6.02	118.62	1.11	1060.19	1808.56
282.34	30.42	12.4	4.73	118.62	1.06	1071.79	1808.56
282.5	18.72	13.09	-0.3	118.62	0.93	1124	1808.56
282.64	12.87	13.55	-3.6	118.62	0.54	1421.32	1521.39
282.8	0	12.75	-9.91	117.5	0.25	1406.82	430.75
282.94	0	15.62	-11.92	117.5	0.04	1329.95	291.52
283.08	0	22.39	-12.06	117.5	0.03	1332.85	291.52
283.22	0	26.87	-12.21	117.5	0.04	1332.85	291.52
283.36	0	29.29	-12.21	117.5	0.04	1334.3	291.52
283.5	0	29.29	-12.21	117.5	0.04	1334.3	291.52

At this point the spill valve would be ruled out. The relief valve seems to be ruled out since it slowly builds pressure to 1764psi when the car is shut off. You would think the internals would be ruled out since they are new Autotechs, but maybe that's worth replacing? If these were the stock internals we wouldn't think twice about saying replace the internals after seeing the symptoms, no? eric@edgeautosport Is that a possibility (swapping with another set)?

[LilGator]

Datalog

[Lex]

At this point, swap the stock internals back in. The problem is so severe now that the stock internals would rule out the Autotechs. They would hold pressure fine at 5psi.

[LilGator]

Makes sense, I'll do that today.

[LilGator]

Swapped stock internals back in. Not looking good. These were the brand new internals that came with the new pump.

Time	Accel	AFR	Boost	Load	HPFP Act	HPFP Des

1.04	0	29.29	-11.99	0.07	511.97	430.75
1.18	2.73	29.29	-11.56	0.08	482.96	430.75
1.32	7.02	22.97	-9.98	0.18	432.2	430.75
1.48	9.36	18.6	-8.83	0.22	448.15	619.29
1.62	10.92	16.08	-7.69	0.32	735.32	1015.23
1.76	14.04	14.93	-6.11	0.36	861.49	1203.77
1.9	16.38	14.81	-5.39	0.38	891.95	1312.55
2.04	16.77	14.24	-5.03	0.43	906.45	1372.01
2.18	16.77	14.36	-4.96	0.43	900.65	1382.16
2.32	16.77	14.59	-4.96	0.44	910.8	1392.31
2.46	16.77	14.47	-5.03	0.44	893.4	1392.31
2.62	16.77	14.59	-4.82	0.45	896.3	1421.32
2.76	16.77	14.59	-4.74	0.45	899.2	1421.32
2.9	16.77	14.59	-4.82	0.45	903.55	1421.32
3.04	17.16	14.59	-4.46	0.46	913.71	1441.62
3.2	22.23	14.7	-3.24	0.51	903.55	1521.39
3.34	23.4	14.7	-2.66	0.56	864.39	1521.39
3.5	27.3	14.59	-1.52	0.61	854.24	1620.01
3.64	29.64	14.59	-0.8	0.68	839.74	1749.09
3.78	30.03	14.7	-0.37	0.69	799.13	1808.56
3.92	29.64	14.59	-0.08	0.73	806.38	1808.56
4.06	30.03	15.04	0.21	0.74	788.98	1808.56
4.22	31.59	14.81	1.07	0.8	788.98	1808.56
4.36	31.98	14.47	1.5	0.83	774.47	1808.56
4.5	33.54	14.24	2.36	0.85	720.81	1808.56
4.64	35.49	14.13	3.29	0.94	696.16	1808.56
4.78	35.49	13.44	4.01	0.97	675.85	1808.56
4.92	35.49	12.63	4.58	1.03	616.39	1808.56
5.08	35.88	13.44	5.08	1.04	603.34	1808.56
5.22	35.88	13.32	5.37	1.07	598.98	1808.56
5.36	35.88	13.21	5.73	1.09	581.58	1808.56
5.5	35.88	12.86	5.73	1.08	559.83	1808.56
5.64	36.27	12.75	5.73	1.09	536.62	1808.56
5.78	35.88	12.75	5.59	1.09	581.58	1808.56
5.92	20.67	12.86	1.35	0.79	648.3	1808.56
6.06	12.87	13.32	-3.24	0.64	728.06	1550.4
6.2	0	13.09	-9.55	0.36	858.59	728.06
6.34	0	13.55	-10.77	0.1	841.19	430.75
6.48	0	14.36	-11.49	0.07	797.68	291.52
6.64	0	15.5	-11.92	0.05	784.63	291.52
6.78	0	19.06	-12.06	0.05	784.63	291.52

[phate]

Could be the in tank pump going bad, or the filter getting clogged.

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by phate Could be the in tank pump going bad, or the filter getting clogged.

What do you think I should hit next, replace relief valve or replace in-tank pump?

When I read threads where the OP suspects needing to replace in-tank pump, people suggest the RV and that was what fixed the issue for some people.

Yet when I read relief valve threads, people are saying their pressure with the engine off is ~65psi or it doesn't build pressure. Mine still builds to 1764psi after I shut the car off.

I think I will pull the relief valve off and check it out. It's supposed to be like a check valve, and if I can blow through it then I'll know it's bad.

[anavrinIV]

Originally Posted by LilGator What do you think I should hit next, replace relief valve or replace in-tank pump? When I read threads where the OP suspects needing to replace in-tank pump, people suggest the RV and that was what fixed the issue for some people. Yet when I read relief valve threads, people are saying their pressure with the engine off is ~65psi or it doesn't build pressure. Mine still builds to 1764psi after I shut the car off. I think I will pull the relief valve off and check it out. It's supposed to be like a check valve, and if I can blow through it then I'll know it's bad.

if you're getting to 1700+ psi it's not the RV. Have you put the stock internals back in to see if they hold pressure? It very well could just be a bad set of internals...shit happens. And if that's the case a swap back to stock should tell you, then you can get a new set from autotech under warranty.

[Lex]

The "clean" way to check if the in tank is providing adequate fueling is to put an in-line gauge on the feed line to the HPFP. You need a couple of fittings and a gauge since it's low pressure. I would do that before pulling the in-tank pump.

[phate]

Originally Posted by LilGator What do you think I should hit next, replace relief valve or replace in-tank pump? When I read threads where the OP suspects needing to replace in-tank pump, people suggest the RV and that was what fixed the issue for some people. Yet when I read relief valve threads, people are saying their pressure with the engine off is ~65psi or it doesn't build pressure. Mine still builds to 1764psi after I shut the car off. I think I will pull the relief valve off and check it out. It's supposed to be like a check valve, and if I can blow through it then I'll know it's bad.

If you pull the relief valve, you can sometimes blow through them if they're completely effed. If not, use an air compressor. If it passes that test, you could get it checked at a hydraulics shop. I took my hprv to a shop and it held 1900psi, and they didn't even charge me to test it.

I agree that I don't think it's the RV, though.

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by anavrinIV if you're getting to 1700+ psi it's not the RV. Have you put the stock internals back in to see if they hold pressure? It very well could just be a bad set of internals...shit happens. And if that's the case a swap back to stock should tell you, then you can get a new set from autotech under warranty.

Yes, just put stock internals in last night. Log above. It seems the internals are fine.

Originally Posted by phate If you pull the relief valve, you can sometimes blow through them if they're completely effed. If not, use an air compressor. If it passes that test, you could get it checked at a hydraulics shop. I took my hprv to a shop and it held 1900psi, and they didn't even charge me to test it. I agree that I don't think it's the RV, though.

It sure doesn't seem to be the RV. I'll see if I can pull it out and check for anything obvious.

Originally Posted by Lex The "clean" way to check if the in tank is providing adequate fueling is to put an in-line gauge on the feed line to the HPFP. You need a couple of fittings and a gauge since it's low pressure. I would do that before pulling the in-tank pump.

Is there a listing of fittings needed to do this somewhere? I found superskaterxes tester here so maybe I'll see if he has that available to use: In-Tank Fuel Pressure Tester

We can't yet, but if we did assume it's not the RV or ITFP, where do we go from there?

[anavrinIV]

Originally Posted by LilGator Yes, just put stock internals in last night. Log above. It seems the internals are fine.

gotcha, I didn't see that the log was with stock internals.

just a thought, but are you torquing everything in the pump back to where it should be? If the cylinder isn't tight enough it can definitely cause problems.

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by anavrinIV gotcha, I didn't see that the log was with stock internals. just a thought, but are you torquing everything in the pump back to where it should be? If the cylinder isn't tight enough it can definitely cause problems.

No problem man.

That's a thought, I hadn't torqued that down to a specific number in any of the internals swaps I've done. I have tried getting about as tight as I could and I've also tried not going past where it gets difficult to tighten (there's a pretty obvious point using a ratchet where it hits a wall and you have to start getting pretty tough). Somewhere I read someone had issues when it was over-tightened and recommended not much past hand tightening.

Is it 55 ft-lbs?

I've got the original pump with new stock internals in the car right now, and I have the Autotechs inside the new pump sitting at my desk so I can torque that to the correct value and swap back and see what happens.

If anyone around here needs to pull their HPFP, I've got this thing down. Of course, I may end up being the one guy who figured out how to screw up an FP internals swap, so ymmv...

[anavrinIV]

I'm just spitting out what few thoughts I have.

when I do internals I don't actually torque them to any spec, but I keep going until they really don't want to turn. As long as they're going without a whole lot of fight, I keep turning. Once they kinda "stop" I give them one last hurrah and that's it, just kind of a verification tug. I've done 2 sets, very soon to be ~5 once the other guys get theirs in, and so far I've been successful.

There's a chance you have another problem, but can't hurt to eliminate potential issues with your hpfp first. Just seems weird that the itfp would crap at the exact time you change internals.

[scubasteve711]

Should double check the pressure to the pump from the tank...

Maybe I missed it, but you said you swapped the spill valve?

Also - as an aside, since I've seen a couple threads with this stuff now, check the connection to the fuel pressure sensor on the fuel rail (it is on the pass side of the rail)

Been a few people that have seen issues like this where the sensor connection was causing issues.