HPFP issues on WOT pull - with swapped internals

[LilGator]

Never got a hold of superskaterxes for his tester, so I ordered a DW65c to replace mine and rule that out as an issue.

StreetUnit's been dicking around though, I ordered on the 12th... 8 days later it's still processing. Should have ordered from Edge but SU had the removal tool rental.

[phate]

Just curious, how much does that pump cost?

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by phate Just curious, how much does that pump cost?

$149

[LilGator]

13 days later it finally ships. Hopefully I'll see it Thurs., get this thing installed with fingers crossed.

[LilGator]

Swapped in the DW65c. There is a ridiculous high-pitched whine coming from it at idle and until ~1000psi. I primed and drove it a couple miles last night, pressure was pretty rough. 1000-1200 at best.

This morning in to work it was a lot better, but we're still not there yet. First couple gears it seemed to be rising and holding but no more than 1400-1500psi range. Saw a peak in the upper 1700's which is the first time in a long time. Fourth gear as I slowly gave it more throttle it would rise to 1300-1400psi and then start to drop down to 900-1000.

I'm not fully convinced that it won't be better since it's improved in the few miles I've put on it, but I don't know what the break-in period is like on these?

And if it turns out this doesn't do the trick, what do I look at next? RV is fine because it immediately starts building pressure when I turn the car off.

[phate]

Did you check out and/or replace the filter while you were in there?

[Lex]

An electric fuel pump does not have a break in period ... this sounds very strange. Can you iterate in one post what you've swapped out already just so it's nicely summarized?

[LilGator]

Originally Posted by phate Did you check out and/or replace the filter while you were in there?

Yes, forgot about that part. Filter looked dirty, but didn't realize the one that comes with the DW65c doesn't work. You can't use it with the assembly that slides over the bottom of the pump and clips to hold the regulator in place. This isn't mine, but a pic of that:



This is from a WRX guide for the DW65c, and it shows the filter that comes with the pump- just connects directly to the pump itself. I tried it this way but the regulator really needs that clip to hold it in. I heard a pop when I tried it this way, opened it up and the regulator had popped out. So I put the old filter back on and that's where I'm at now. Can you buy that filter by itself?

Originally Posted by Lex An electric fuel pump does not have a break in period ... this sounds very strange. Can you iterate in one post what you've swapped out already just so it's nicely summarized?

Sure thing, I was actually just about to do that:

1. Original HPFP, stock internals.
2. Swapped internals with Autotechs (I don't have logs from this point as it wasn't long before I did DP- but I recall pressure holding fine here)
3. Downpipe install, Sure 3" AEROS and Lex's base tune flashed
4. WOT log showing pressure dips
5. Brand new OEM pump with Autotechs swapped in to rule out spill valve -> no change
6. Swapped the new OEM internals into my original pump to rule out Autotechs -> no change
7. Pressure holds/builds to ~1700psi after car has been running and then shut off, PRV *should* be fine because of this
8. ITFP swapped with the DW65c (old filter is still on though) -> so far, no change

[phate]

Once upon a time, in the land of E85, I had a clogged filter. I didn't know it, so I bought an entire ITFP basket. The fuel pump seemed fine, but the filter was NASTY. It was doing similar things to yours, but eventually got so bad I would see fuel pressure drop to 0psi. My original fuel pump was also very loud at the time because it was working overtime trying to pull through the nasty filter.

[LilGator]

Is the whole basket the only way to replace the filter?

So I've got that on my radar along with the fuel rail pressure sensor and on much lower priority the RV.

[phate]

Filter: LFB6-13-ZE1

I didn't know what was wrong with mine, so I ordered the entire assembly. Parts shotgun ftw.

[LilGator]

Awesome. Got one on the way, worth a shot. No local dealer has it, but OnlineMazdaParts is nearby in Charlotte so it shouldn't take long.

Parts shotgun. I like it. I feel like I'm doing parts whack a mole.

[LilGator]

This gives me a little hope:

Originally Posted by Dano so after my ITFP replacement I was still getting cut and low pressure drop. That is, until about 5-7 good WOT runs at which time pressure drop went away and everything is back to normal where FP is concerned. I have no explanation why it didn't resolve the issues immediately and would like some input on why this could have been the case. there is no doubt the ITFP/filter resolved the issue in the end but why not immediately?

Of course Dano's issue was ultimately fixed with the sensor, and his fuel drops were not like mine are.

[LilGator]

So much for that hope. On the drive home I had dips down to 40psi.

[LilGator]

Getting worse, making the drive to and from work extremely difficult keeping my eye on pressure watching out for these drops. I can't go more than 30-35mph. Here's a snippet, log attached.

Hopefully should see the ITFP filter tomorrow. Having a hard time believing that will cause this... or why it decided to start doing this now. But phate having had the same issue is a good sign. Fingers crossed (again).

Time	Accel.	AFR	Boost	Load	HPFP A	HPFP D
3.18	11.7	14.59	-6.39	0.39	1203.77	1273.39
3.32	12.09	14.59	-6.32	0.39	1197.97	1263.23
3.46	12.09	14.81	-6.18	0.39	1186.37	1292.24
3.6	11.7	14.7	-6.25	0.4	1228.43	1292.24
3.74	11.7	14.7	-6.39	0.39	1228.43	1283.54
3.88	11.31	14.59	-6.54	0.38	1206.67	1242.93
4.04	11.31	14.7	-6.54	0.38	1186.37	1232.78
4.18	11.31	14.7	-6.54	0.38	1164.61	1232.78
4.32	11.31	14.7	-6.61	0.38	1155.91	1232.78
4.48	11.31	14.81	-6.61	0.38	1164.61	1232.78
4.62	11.31	14.7	-6.54	0.38	1173.31	1232.78
4.76	11.7	14.7	-6.54	0.38	1171.86	1232.78
4.9	11.7	14.7	-6.46	0.38	1155.91	1232.78
5.04	11.31	14.7	-6.46	0.38	1158.81	1242.93
5.18	11.31	14.7	-6.46	0.38	1164.61	1253.08
5.34	11.7	14.7	-6.39	0.38	1176.21	1242.93
5.48	12.09	14.7	-6.32	0.39	1168.96	1263.23
5.62	12.09	14.81	-6.18	0.39	1182.02	1273.39
5.76	12.09	14.7	-6.25	0.4	1173.31	1283.54
5.9	12.09	14.7	-6.18	0.39	1176.21	1283.54
6.04	12.09	14.59	-6.32	0.39	1173.31	1273.39
6.18	12.09	14.7	-6.18	0.4	1141.41	1273.39
6.32	12.09	14.7	-6.18	0.4	1151.56	1283.54
6.48	12.09	14.7	-6.18	0.39	1137.06	1273.39
6.62	12.09	14.59	-6.18	0.4	1124	1283.54
6.78	11.7	14.7	-6.25	0.39	1126.9	1273.39
6.92	11.7	14.59	-6.32	0.38	1112.4	1253.08
7.08	11.7	14.7	-6.46	0.38	1089.2	1232.78
7.22	11.31	14.7	-6.46	0.38	1060.19	1232.78
7.36	11.31	14.7	-6.54	0.38	1039.88	1224.08
7.5	11.7	14.7	-6.54	0.37	984.77	1232.78
7.66	11.31	14.7	-6.32	0.38	910.8	1242.93
7.8	11.7	14.81	-6.32	0.38	720.81	1232.78
7.96	11.31	14.7	-6.39	0.38	585.93	1242.93
8.12	11.31	14.7	-6.25	0.38	329.22	1232.78
8.26	11.7	14.47	-6.39	0.38	201.6	1232.78
8.4	11.7	14.59	-6.32	0.38	23.21	1232.78
8.54	12.09	18.83	-6.18	0.38	15.95	1253.08
8.68	0	24.92	-8.83	0.24	14.5	707.76
8.82	0	27.68	-10.48	0.15	15.95	430.75
8.98	0	28.83	-10.77	0.11	18.85	430.75
9.12	0	29.29	-10.41	0.12	15.95	430.75
9.26	0	29.29	-10.12	0.14	21.75	430.75
9.4	0	29.29	-9.91	0.16	117.48	430.75
9.54	0	29.29	-10.41	0.16	200.15	430.75
9.68	0	22.62	-10.48	0.13	368.38	430.75
9.82	0	17.69	-10.48	0.13	393.04	430.75
9.96	0	16.31	-10.27	0.14	417.69	430.75
10.1	0	16.08	-10.05	0.16	459.75	430.75
10.24	0	15.96	-10.19	0.16	469.91	430.75
10.38	0.39	15.16	-10.05	0.16	474.26	430.75
10.52	2.34	14.93	-9.26	0.18	472.81	430.75
10.68	3.51	14.47	-8.9	0.23	514.87	539.52

[LilGator]

OK, a few updates. Got the filter replaced last night. So far I can give it as much throttle as I want, no scary pressure drops like earlier this week. On a minor note, my fuel level gauge is stuck on E with about a quarter tank filled up, so it looks like I've got to go pull it out again.

Now, in doing this I've also noticed I'm not hitting boost targets. In fact, I'm not really hitting boost, couple psi tops. Partly because I've been driving like a grandma for the last month, and partly because I've always watched Act. HPFP on the AP while driving I'm sure it's been like this for awhile I hadn't really noticed until now.

Checking for leaks I noticed a good bit of leak in the turbo/downpipe area. Pulled IC and heatshields and found one of the five nuts had worked i's way completely off- it was gone! Another had worked it's way to the end of the bolt. These were the bottom two. The top three seemed fairly snug still. I got a new nut on and wrench tightened not even quarter turns at a time as much as I could, but I can't get a socket on there from up top. Must have to get those from the bottom?

Could this have been at least partially the cause of my issues?

[Constantin]

MS6FL, would you like to share you experience of having to miss 2-3 nuts missing from your DP or you MS6?

[LilGator]

Found it. Damn! His bolts were missing?

[MS6FL]

Originally Posted by Constantin MS6FL, would you like to share you experience of having to miss 2-3 nuts missing from your DP or you MS6?

Yup, found 3 bolts were gone! 2 on the top closest to the motor and 1 on the bottom. Car was running like complete shit. Didn't wanna idle AFRs all over the place and mostly very rich. Hard to get too. I ended up getting a stock mazduh DP gasket(the one that came with the dp was complete shit) Turbo came out and the new gasket and bolts were put on and torqued the fuck down.

[G26]

Originally Posted by LilGator Found it. Damn! His bolts were missing?

You couldn't even put your face in the turbo area without the fumes stinging your eyes.


Sent from my...

[LilGator]

Got the leak issues resolved. Bolts torqued down, and my extra o2 sensor bung had come off!

Now, I've noticed a good bit of white smoke out the exhaust at idle. But only sometimes. Lex should I raise idle on that map a bit?

I think I still have issues holding fuel pressure. I need to check the logs I took, and it's not the severe double digit drops I had before replacing the ITFP filter, but it looks like it's dropping down to ~600psi range when I start to lay into it. I'll post up some logs here shortly to verify.

[LilGator]

Snippet here, with the full log attached. I don't even know what to think anymore, what is going on?

Time	Accel	AFR	Boost	BAT	Load	HPFP A	HPFP D
18.3	0	12.98	-11.49	101.75	0.14	1147.21	430.75
18.44	0	12.63	-11.99	101.75	0.08	1079.04	291.52
18.58	0	14.93	-11.99	101.75	0.04	1077.59	430.75
18.72	15.6	15.85	-6.68	101.75	0.09	1032.63	627.99
18.86	27.69	14.7	-2.09	101.75	0.6	1137.06	1521.39
19	31.98	14.01	-0.87	102.88	0.67	1151.56	1769.4
19.14	37.05	13.78	2	101.75	0.94	1081.94	1808.56
19.3	39	12.29	3.29	101.75	1.05	945.61	1808.56
19.44	46.41	13.09	4.87	101.75	1.14	864.39	1808.56
19.58	47.97	12.17	7.31	101.75	1.27	815.08	1808.56
19.72	47.97	11.83	9.61	100.62	1.37	703.41	1808.56
19.86	47.97	12.06	9.75	99.5	1.42	616.39	1808.56
20	47.97	11.94	9.32	99.5	1.39	623.64	1808.56
20.14	47.97	11.94	9.25	98.38	1.36	668.6	1808.56
20.3	47.97	11.71	9.03	98.38	1.36	588.83	1808.56
20.44	47.58	11.83	8.82	96.12	1.34	603.34	1808.56
20.58	47.97	11.83	8.6	96.12	1.33	613.49	1808.56
20.72	47.97	11.83	8.6	96.12	1.32	601.89	1808.56
20.88	48.75	11.71	8.82	95	1.33	672.95	1808.56
21.02	50.7	12.06	10.54	93.88	1.39	651.2	1808.56
21.16	51.09	12.06	10.97	92.75	1.45	601.89	1808.56
21.3	51.48	11.94	11.18	92.75	1.47	581.58	1808.56
21.44	51.48	11.71	11.11	92.75	1.47	556.93	1808.56
21.58	51.48	11.71	11.26	92.75	1.47	522.12	1808.56
21.72	51.48	11.71	10.61	91.62	1.47	525.02	1808.56
21.88	50.7	11.6	9.75	91.62	1.38	616.39	1808.56
22.02	50.31	11.71	9.39	90.5	1.37	627.99	1808.56
22.16	50.31	11.71	9.32	90.5	1.37	574.33	1808.56
22.32	49.92	11.6	9.18	90.5	1.36	593.18	1808.56
22.46	48.36	11.48	9.1	89.38	1.34	675.85	1808.56
22.6	48.36	11.6	9.1	89.38	1.33	686	1808.56
22.76	48.36	11.6	9.1	89.38	1.32	626.54	1808.56
22.9	43.68	11.48	8.6	89.38	1.31	648.3	1808.56
23.04	35.88	11.48	7.81	89.38	1.27	672.95	1808.56
23.18	33.15	11.6	7.02	89.38	1.22	742.57	1808.56
23.32	28.86	11.48	5.87	89.38	1.18	742.57	1808.56
23.46	24.57	11.25	4.58	89.38	1.11	802.03	1808.56
23.6	17.94	12.75	1.07	89.38	0.93	934.01	1808.56
23.74	0	11.94	-7.83	89.38	0.74	1029.73	1560.55
23.88	0	10.91	-11.56	89.38	0.13	1263.23	430.75
24.02	0	12.06	-11.99	89.38	0.06	1221.17	291.52
24.16	0	14.93	-11.99	89.38	0.04	1231.33	291.52
24.3	0	20.56	-11.99	89.38	0.04	1232.78	291.52
24.44	0	24.92	-11.99	89.38	0.04	1235.68	291.52

[LilGator]

Any ideas guys, I really don't even know where to start poking next?

HPFP internals are good.
Spill valve is good.
Relief valve is good.
ITFP and filter is good.

Dips to 500-600psi range at 50% accel pedal.

[jack_hammer]

Is there an inline filter? I have no idea, man.

Probably sent from a toilet

[LilGator]

I don't believe so, at least I haven't heard of one yet.

[jack_hammer]

yea, i just looked... it seems we do not. i can't help you but here's a bump in case someone can.

[Enki]

If you are running high concentrations of corn, don't soak the internals in oil. You could have high speed sticking of the internals due to black/sticky death, caused by bad reaction between oil, temps and corn sauce.

While my method may not work for everyone, I reassemble my pump dry or with a little bit of lighter fluid, and sometimes if the spill valve is off I won't reinstall it until the pump is on the car; before that I'll squirt some lighter fluid in there and then put the spill valve back on so it doesn't start dry (though priming a couple of times should work just fine instead of that).

[LilGator]

No corn yet, besides the at-most 10% in 93 here. I swapped the Autotechs into a brand new OEM pump and got the same result, as well as swapping the original internals back in.

Maybe it's time to put a cp-e pump in just to be sure. I'm really just grasping though, I have no idea what the deal could possibly be.

[LilGator]

So fucking pumped right now. Check out this log.

I spent the afternoon searching for HPFP threads with issues and read probably all of them. It gave me the motivation to pull the pump out for the 37th time and reassemble just because you never know.

[phate]

What did you do differently?

[LilGator]

The only thing I really did differently than other times was the nut that tightens around the internals. I torqued it 3 or 4 times with all I had to get it tighter, just because it was something I hadn't tried before. Maybe that did it.

[Enki]

Strange; I only go to hand-tight with a tap on the end of the wrench with my palm. I don't torque mine.

[LilGator]

That's what I had done the past times, as it goes from hand tightening to a lot of resistance pretty quick.

[skiptowncat]

Glad you got it sorted, keep monitoring and report back in a week or so.

[Lakespeed6]

Originally Posted by LilGator The only thing I really did differently than other times was the nut that tightens around the internals. I torqued it 3 or 4 times with all I had to get it tighter, just because it was something I hadn't tried before. Maybe that did it.

Any more logs.
I'm having a similar issue right now.
I'm targeting 1750 and right around 4500-5500 RPM I dip into the 1500s-1400s sometimes less.
This is also around a 2.4+ load.
The autotechs have less than 3k on them.

[Enki]

How much corn are you running?

I see you have meth AND a GTX30 turbo; if high concentrations are being run, you're probably legitimately running out of fuel. With a high mix of corn, you really don't need meth, btw.

If you are running corn and wanted to "fix" this issue on the same fuel mix and other settings on the map, you could neuter the VVT in that RPM range to provide a bit more fueling.

[Lakespeed6]

Originally Posted by Enki How much corn are you running? I see you have meth AND a GTX30 turbo; if high concentrations are being run, you're probably legitimately running out of fuel. With a high mix of corn, you really don't need meth, btw. If you are running corn and wanted to "fix" this issue on the same fuel mix and other settings on the map, you could neuter the VVT in that RPM range to provide a bit more fueling.

I'm not using any E as of now, closest station is a 45 min drive.

I shouldn't be running out of fuel as of now, only putting down 320WHP or so Virtual Dyno.
Tuned back down to 290WHP and same results.

I did check/clean my spill valve and looked over my autotechs for scrapes or other issues and they looked clean.

[LilGator]

I haven't pulled a new log yet, I'll get some more. Monitoring pressure while driving it is holding well now ~1850psi range.

You did verify your relief valve is good by watching pressure build after you shut the car off?

[LilGator]

4th gear WOT log attached

[phate]

Originally Posted by LilGator 4th gear WOT log attached

Fuel pressure looks good, but holy KR. You need to look for things rattling around in the engine bay, or run some high octane fuel to double check it.

You also have a spike in calc'd load when VVT -> 0°. It's an MS6 thing that started with one of the last few releases of ATR. If you keep VVT just above 0 through the top end rev range, it won't spike. Ghetto work around, but it works and you won't lose power. That (the spike) will put you in higher load cells, where you will run less timing = less power.

Analysis workbook and screenshot attached.