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 Old 05-22-2012, 09:13 PM   #1
 
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Default low comp + leaky leak down = inj seals?

@Boost_creep was attempting to do an e-tune for me and we came across some knock. it just wouldn't go away. we tried everything but it persisted.

eventually, i did a compression test. initial results were not favorable. now, in hindsight i did not hold down the gas pedal properly. but these were what i got.
cyl 1: 182
cyl 2: 182
cyl 3: 165
cyl 4: 185

so, i went and bought a leak down tester. this is what i got, but it's wacky.
cyl 1: 15%
cyl 2: 30%
cyl 3: 50%
cyl 4: 2%

not convinced i had the leak down tester working properly, i decided to do the compression test again. this time, i held down the accelerator the entire time.
cyl 1: 190
cyl 2: 185
cyl 3: 172
cyl 4: 190

so, they were not the same numbers but the proportions were the same. this time i went and added 1/2 teaspoon of oil into cyl 3. then i retested the compression.
cyl 3: 178

i know the theory is that if you add oil and it increases compression, then you have bad rings. but this barely increased pressure.

on the other hand, i have read that if you have a leaky fuel injector seal, then you will have high loss on the leak down test.

questions:
is it possible that the leak down tests were accurate?
is it possible that replacing the injector seals will cure my problems?
is there something else i am missing?


thanks


<edit #1>
this is what i ended up deciding to do:
*clean valves
*install PTP seals & injector studs
*SURE 1/8" intake TIG
*replace the OEM retainer on my fuel pump b/c the one in there had some wear on it

<edit #2>
post installation test results
*massively reduced knock

*leak down
1 - 35 / 33 (5%)
2 - 33 / 24 (27%) through the oil filler
3 - 33 / 21 (37%) through the oil filler
4 - 33 / 32 (3%)

*compression:
1 - 185
2 - 182
3 - 170
4 - 187
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Last edited by jack_hammer; 06-04-2012 at 07:34 PM.
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 Old 05-22-2012, 10:40 PM   #2
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When doing the leakdown test, where was the leak? You can listen for it and see if it's coming from the crankcase (rings), intake manifold (intake valves), exhaust manifold (exhaust valves).
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 Old 05-23-2012, 07:18 AM   #3
 
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i could not figure out where it was leaking. i did not hear anything from the crankcase. how can you hear from the intake or exhaust valves?

in all honesty, though, i'm not 100% sure i did the test correctly. it's either that or they leak like a mofo.

the instructions said to put the regulator on the tester to be 10psi lower than the source. i put my compressor at 40psi and the regulator to 30psi. but when i connected it to the hose going into the cylinder, the gauge pressure dropped way lower than 30. however, the pressure on my compressor still showed 40.

i thought maybe i had missed TDC somehow (on 3 of 4 cylinders? seems unlikely, though)

see my illustration below. these may not be the exact numbers b/c i didn't write them down. however, you should get the idea.

Attached Images
File Type: png leak down test.png (18.3 KB, 798 views)
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 Old 05-23-2012, 07:25 AM   #4
 
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Best of luck getting this worked out. You are in good hands with Boost_Creep. He may be lesser known e-tune wise, but knows all of the tables in and out.

If you eventually decide to do the seals, have you seen the Toyota diesel option that seems to be working well for everyone?
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 Old 05-23-2012, 07:35 AM   #5
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Best of luck buddy, I'll help you out when I get there. If it was a valve or a valve seal it would be smoking so I also agree on the injector seals theory.
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 Old 05-23-2012, 07:38 AM   #6
 
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Originally Posted by broncojd78 View Post
i could not figure out where it was leaking. i did not hear anything from the crankcase. how can you hear from the intake or exhaust valves?
You can listen for an intake valve leak at the intake/throttle body, and you can hear exhaust valve leak if you listen at the end of you exhaust. Worn piston rings and that kind of stuff you would be able to hear air coming through the dip stick. And if its a head gasket or something like that you should get bubbles in your coolant tank.
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 Old 05-23-2012, 07:47 AM   #7
 
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I had been working from the assumption that if the injector seal was bad enough to show up in a leak down test you would be getting the primary symptoms- some KR, and be able to see fuel, maybe even hear it?
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 Old 05-23-2012, 08:17 AM   #8
 
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@broncojd78 You did the LD test on the compression stroke right?
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 Old 05-23-2012, 08:29 AM   #9
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
Best of luck getting this worked out. You are in good hands with Boost_Creep. He may be lesser known e-tune wise, but knows all of the tables in and out.

If you eventually decide to do the seals, have you seen the Toyota diesel option that seems to be working well for everyone?

i am aware of the toyota seals, but thanks for checking. i had read a few posts in it before, but i just read the entire thing. i don't know that i'm convinced, though. i'm really tempted to go with the HPFPupgrade seals. the theory of "well if they fail i only wasted $8" is not something i buy. i enjoy working on my car, but i don't want to do the same job twice. but, being as cheap as i am, i'm considering them. i just haven't decided.

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 View Post
I had been working from the assumption that if the injector seal was bad enough to show up in a leak down test you would be getting the primary symptoms- some KR, and be able to see fuel, maybe even hear it?
was definitely getting KR. not real high levels, but constant levels throughout my WOT logs. jason pulled 2 degrees of timing and it still knocked.

Originally Posted by smoogs12 View Post
@broncojd78 You did the LD test on the compression stroke right?
i did them at TDC. i had a long socket extension in the cylinder. i turned the crank and my wife told me when it got to TDC. then i would do the leak down test.
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 Old 05-23-2012, 08:43 AM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by broncojd78 View Post
i did them at TDC. i had a long socket extension in the cylinder. i turned the crank and my wife told me when it got to TDC. then i would do the leak down test.
Did you confirm that it was tdc on the comp stroke?

Your compression tests dont really seem to lend themselves to a 50% leakdown.
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 Old 05-23-2012, 08:45 AM   #11
 
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Originally Posted by smoogs12 View Post
Did you confirm that it was tdc on the comp stroke?

Your compression tests dont really seem to lend themselves to a 50% leakdown.
damn, i guess not. how do you do that?
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 Old 05-23-2012, 08:55 AM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by broncojd78 View Post
damn, i guess not. how do you do that?
The way I do it is just kind of "plug" the spark plug hole with something. I like to use something light like tissue paper.

The idea behind this is that if the cylinder is on its compression stroke it will move the paper do to the air being forced passed it. If its on the exhaust stroke you would not see the paper move due to the exhaust valve being open.

Edit:you could also determine it through the firing order of our engine (not 100% sure what it is)
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 Old 05-23-2012, 09:04 AM   #13
 
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that sucks, because it is a pain in the neck to do everything to be able to do that test.

on the other hand, if it was bad rings, when i added the oil i would have expected to see a bigger increase in compression. so, doesn't that lend to the idea of the rings being OK?

at this point, i'm really leaning toward replacing the seals. and while it is disassembled, replacing the injector studs and cleaning the valves as well.

i am trying to make sure that there is not some red flag right now that pointing to piston rings, meaning that the injector seals are probably good and replacing is a wasted effort. if i have to, i will do the leak down test again. but i'm leaning toward just doing this to know for certain that i have done everything possible. for the relatively small expense of doing it and finding out 100%, it might be worth it, regardless of a new leak down test.

if the compression is legitimately dropping, i'll have to consider cutting my losses with the car and moving on. i'd rather not.
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 Old 05-23-2012, 09:08 AM   #14
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exactly this^ just place a small piece of tissue over the s.p. hole it will float up when on the comp stroke-- not sure why I repeated it, just want to seem smart to I guess.
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 Old 05-23-2012, 09:16 AM   #15
 
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Originally Posted by smoogs12 View Post
The way I do it is just kind of "plug" the spark plug hole with something. I like to use something light like tissue paper.

The idea behind this is that if the cylinder is on its compression stroke it will move the paper do to the air being forced passed it. If its on the exhaust stroke you would not see the paper move due to the exhaust valve being open.

Edit:you could also determine it through the firing order of our engine (not 100% sure what it is)
Firing order courtesy of SSinstaller:

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 Old 05-23-2012, 06:08 PM   #16
 
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Ordered ptp/hpfpupgrade injector seals and stud kit. I am going to shoot to install next weekend.

Also snagged a SURE intake TIG on clearance.

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 Old 05-23-2012, 10:43 PM   #17
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Cleaned your valves yet? May want to nut that shit while you're in there. It works fanfuckingtasticly.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 05:35 AM   #18
 
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Originally Posted by themytb View Post
Cleaned your valves yet? May want to nut that shit while you're in there. It works fanfuckingtasticly.
No i have not. However, that is most definitely on the to-do list. Well i probably won't media blast, but i will clean them.

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 Old 05-24-2012, 05:46 AM   #19
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Firing order is the same on all flat plane crank 4 cylinders, and the leak down test is best performed with the valve cover off.
You can see by cam orientation that your at tdc, and it's much easier to locate leaky valve seals.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 01:01 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by broncojd78 View Post
No i have not. However, that is most definitely on the to-do list. Well i probably won't media blast, but i will clean them.

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I have done both the solvent and media methods, and honestly the walnut takes about the same time(I was using a way undersized compressor) but the results are in comparable.
Plus the smell of roasted walnuts the first time you fire it up afterwards is lovely LOL.

Sorry for being a dick and derailing the thread.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 01:41 PM   #21
 
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you're not being a dick, you're bringing up a really good point about cleaning the valves. i only have a small pancake compressor that holds a couple gallons and has max pressure of 100psi. i am just reluctant to shoot matter into the heads. even if i "should" be able to get it out completely, why take the chance? i have read that methanol pretty much dissolves the carbon build up, so i am going to try to acquire some.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 01:43 PM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by broncojd78 View Post
you're not being a dick, you're bringing up a really good point about cleaning the valves. i only have a small pancake compressor that holds a couple gallons and has max pressure of 100psi. i am just reluctant to shoot matter into the heads. even if i "should" be able to get it out completely, why take the chance? i have read that methanol pretty much dissolves the carbon build up, so i am going to try to acquire some.
Yellow bottle HEET = METH.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 01:48 PM   #23
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
Yellow bottle HEET = METH.
this?

Heet 28201 - Fuel Treatment | O'Reilly Auto Parts

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 Old 05-24-2012, 01:51 PM   #24
 
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Yes sir. 99% methanol.

I spray it like it is going out of style. LOL
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 Old 05-24-2012, 01:52 PM   #25
 
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Curious how the meth compares to denatured alcohol for cleaning the valves?

The DA worked well for me, but open to new ideas on the subject for sure
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 Old 05-24-2012, 01:54 PM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 View Post
Curious how the meth compares to denatured alcohol for cleaning the valves?

The DA worked well for me, but open to new ideas on the subject for sure
According to Daddy Chinkus, dentaured alcohol > meth.

I have been contemplating spraying some denatured alcohol occasionally.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 02:00 PM   #27
 
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not sure that there is enough duty cycle time from spraying to get any real major cleaning benefit.

Keeping things clean may well be another story tho, I dunno.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 02:04 PM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 View Post
not sure that there is enough duty cycle time from spraying to get any real major cleaning benefit.

Keeping things clean may well be another story tho, I dunno.
Auto clean (if it works) > mani removal LOL. Sorry Bronco for the derail.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 02:07 PM   #29
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
Auto clean (if it works) > mani removal LOL. Sorry Bronco for the derail.
i sent you a PM to avoid the derail, but whatever. i'll get this back on track once i get the seals installed...

how many miles would that $2.30 bottle last?

also, the cleaning benefit of meth is not to be discounted. sure, you get more power, cooler bats, etc... but the cleaning benefits are significant.

however, the expense of the set up and the risk of hydrolock are greater than the additional power or cleaning benefits, in my opinion.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 07:27 PM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
According to Daddy Chinkus, dentaured alcohol > meth.

I have been contemplating spraying some denatured alcohol occasionally.
you got me looking at the differences between the meth kits and what you can / can't run.

according to the snow performance website:
• Isopropyl/Denatured Alcohols: These can be used, but are not as good as methanol. They have a lower BTU, or energy content, and a lower latent heat of vaporization (fancy way of saying how much heat they absorb) as well as a lower octane rating compared to methanol.

Snow Performance : FAQ gasoline
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 Old 05-24-2012, 07:41 PM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by broncojd78 View Post
you got me looking at the differences between the meth kits and what you can / can't run.

according to the snow performance website:
• Isopropyl/Denatured Alcohols: These can be used, but are not as good as methanol. They have a lower BTU, or energy content, and a lower latent heat of vaporization (fancy way of saying how much heat they absorb) as well as a lower octane rating compared to methanol.

Snow Performance : FAQ gasoline
LOL. I didn't mean to turn you onto meth / spark an interest. Daddy Chinkus once did a write-up comparing how effective a couple of cleaning fluids were on our valves and denatured alcohol had the best cleaning properties.

(IIRC, he used meth, denatured alcohol, b12 chemtool and seafoam).
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 Old 05-24-2012, 08:19 PM   #32

 
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I just used the b12 last weekend and it did a good job. Where in Dallas are you?
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 Old 05-24-2012, 08:40 PM   #33
 
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i have denatured alcohol and seafoam already. maybe i'll get the b12 and heet and do a comparison myself.


and i live in oak cliff.
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 Old 05-24-2012, 08:59 PM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
Daddy Chinkus once did a write-up comparing how effective a couple of cleaning fluids were on our valves and denatured alcohol had the best cleaning properties.

(IIRC, he used meth, denatured alcohol, b12 chemtool and seafoam).

Cobb did the same as part of their high mileage service bulletin- clicky-clicky
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 Old 05-24-2012, 09:18 PM   #35
 
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Anybody think denatured 100% ethanol would work well? I have a ton of the shit at my disposal.

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 Old 05-31-2012, 12:14 AM   #36
 
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tomorrow / today / thursday - i'm going to get to work. replace the studs and seals, plus give the valves hell as best i can.

i'll let you guys know how it goes.
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 Old 05-31-2012, 11:47 PM   #37
 
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alright, so i had written a big post but then accidentally hit the "back" button and lost it all. so, i'm not writing it all again.

bottom line: not completed yet. valves were gross. 71000 miles. no EGR block off. no catch can. no meth. nothing. i've read a lot of the valve cleaning threads the last week or so. i did not see anything that looked worse than my valves.

had to use a combination of denatured alcohol, gun cleaning brushes, a screw driver, and walnut blasting. the meth made the buildup become a gross goo. i actually drove to harbor freight and bought the blaster and media before i finished the first valve. they were that bad. unfortunately, my 3 gal 100psi compressor didn't do very well for powering the blaster. but, i got everything sufficiently cleaned through fortitude and perseverance.

so, valves are cleaned. still need to remove the fuel rail and install the seals and studs.

is there any trick / tip to removing that? i started to try getting that removed, but it did not come right off. it was late so i did not fight with it. i just left it alone for tomorrow.
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 Old 06-01-2012, 04:10 AM   #38
 
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@broncojd78 did you ever do another leak down test? Or are you saving that for once you are done with cables and seals?


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 Old 06-01-2012, 04:56 AM   #39
 
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I believe most guys use a combo of injector seal threads, but this is thanks to dougefresh_:

How To CPE Injector Seals + Studs + EGR Delete

Also, google "nicked" injector seal and you should come up with what seems to be a common thing to look out for when re-installing.
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 Old 06-01-2012, 05:51 AM   #40
 
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Originally Posted by smoogs12 View Post
@broncojd78 did you ever do another leak down test? Or are you saving that for once you are done with cables and seals?


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No i did not retest. either this fixes it, or not. And then we go from there.


Originally Posted by rfinkle2 View Post
I believe most guys use a combo of injector seal threads, but this is thanks to dougefresh_:

How To CPE Injector Seals + Studs + EGR Delete

Also, google "nicked" injector seal and you should come up with what seems to be a common thing to look out for when re-installing.

I read that thread before. I'm talking about removal of the fuel rail. When i pull, nothing happens. It does not want to budge. I don't think I'm holding my nose right. That's what I was asking about. or are there bolts that hidden?

I was thinking i might try removing the crows feet and trying to take our the rail and injectors at one time. Then i could just remove the injectors from the rail. Voila, injector removal tool. Haha



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