P0335 Crank Position Sensor A Circuit Malfunction

[dougefresh_]

Anyone know what may cause this? Besides 'a bad sensor' lol. The only 2 threads I found didn't really have any info on it... just 'sensor is bad.' Wondering if anyone has replaced it, and if it's difficult or not.

thx

[crazyp]

oooh Im getting this as well. Gotten twice and cleared it twice interesting

[dougefresh_]

I took a vid just now of cold start to see what's up w/ VVT.... I can't tell. I'm gonna make a new thread, bc no one is going to check this thread but us, lol

[crazyp]

yeah Im not gonna lie, i only found this thread because I searched for p0335 lol

I have about the same mileage as you, 41000

[dougefresh_]

Skates is sure it's VVT.... gonna post vid now

EDIT: It's not vvt, I later had vvt, chain, & tensionor replaced... still throwing it.

[SSinstaller]

Pull your valve cover and do the test in the VVT TSB, it's not that hard, and is 100% conclusive if your actuator is bad..

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller Pull your valve cover and do the test in the VVT TSB, it's not that hard, and is 100% conclusive if your actuator is bad..

I'll check out the tsb... I'd rather not pull my valve cover outdoors though. Plus I have to disconnect my oil + coolant lines to get at the valve cover (compressor outlet rests on VC and needs to be clocked up). Though I do need to change my coolant lines anyways. Hmmmm.... I'll check the tsb, thanks SS!

Originally Posted by crazyp oooh Im getting this as well. Gotten twice and cleared it twice interesting

And you found this and only 2 other useless threads I bet, haha

[Tomas]

I was at the the track today doing laps and the car started spluttering and misfiring. Rough idle and at the least amount of load the car will fall on its face. Had to get it towed back home.

The code I am getting is P0335.
Checked the connections of the Crank Postion sensor and all seems ok. Also cleaned it.
The car will idle a little rough but revving it in neutral goes ok. It's just when it's in gear it spluters.

AFR at idle is around 9.5 for whatever reason.
Fuel Pressure is ok. when revving in neutral is about 1750 psi.

What's going on? I am thinking if the sensor is bad the car would not start at all. I also see here this could be a VVT issue?

Need help. Can't drive the car now.

I have a 2009 MS3 which I believe has the upgraded VVT actuator. Correct?

[chimmike]

If you have a TDC tool I'd say check to make sure the sensor is lined up right and didn't get out of time somehow.

I agree if the sensor was bad it probably wouldn't start. Also if you bent valves or something I think you'd notice.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by chimmike If you have a TDC tool I'd say check to make sure the sensor is lined up right and didn't get out of time somehow. I agree if the sensor was bad it probably wouldn't start. Also if you bent valves or something I think you'd notice.

I've moved the sensor back and forth fully to one side and the other within the range of the slots and that does not change anything. That only changes timing by a few degrees which is hardly noticeable.

Yeah, no bent valves. That would be noticeable. When moderating the throttle at 2-5k rpm in neutral the engine revs as if all was ok.

Where can I get the VVT TSB? I am looking all over MSF and cant find it.

[bmylez]

Tomas, not saying that the position of the crank sensor is causing anything since you've tried, but each tooth is 6 degrees. If you move it all the way in one direction, I'm pretty sure you're off by more than half a tooth. Dustin lectured me on this very thing, which is why I got under my car today and aligned the crank sensor correctly.

Obviously your actual problem is something more serious, but just wanted to let you know that proper crank sensor position is very important. If you are running retarded timing (let's say 3 degrees/half a tooth), then you will run rich at idle.

[dougefresh_]

I threw P0355 again today. After they did the vvt, chain + tensioner, it was still throwing P0355, so they swapped it out with a known 'good' one. It hadn't seen it since, but I threw it this afternoon ~120 miles after the vvt fix. I'm not sure if they retimed the motor after swapping sensors or not, but I'm gonna give them a call on Monday to find out.

[Tomas]

Can someone explain the connection between the crank angle sensor and VVT? How the fuck are they related and why would a faulty VVT throw this code?

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by Tomas Can someone explain the connection between the crank angle sensor and VVT? How the fuck are they related and why would a faulty VVT throw this code?

It doesn't, really.... The code is generated when the ECU does not see a voltage from the crank sensor for ~4.2 seconds while the MAF is at 2.0 grams/second... I think that some of these problems might extend from the wiring harness or connection issues, either at the sensor plug, of the ecu side of the harness.

The VVt problem and a code generally is associated with crank sensor position in relationship with the cam sensor along with ignition timing. This code is usually a multiple misfire code. (P0300)

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon It doesn't, really.... The code is generated when the ECU does not see a voltage from the crank sensor for ~4.2 seconds while the MAF is at 2.0 grams/second... I think that some of these problems might extend from the wiring harness or connection issues, either at the sensor plug, of the ecu side of the harness. The VVt problem and a code generally is associated with crank sensor position in relationship with the cam sensor along with ignition timing. This code is usually a multiple misfire code. (P0300)

If my maf cal if screwed up at idle, could this possibly cause that ckp code, or no? That's funny, I never threw P0300 even w/ my chain stretched 1/2" and my vvt rattling around. I hope this is just something stupid.

[SilverDemon]

Originally Posted by dougefresh_ If my maf cal if screwed up at idle, could this possibly cause that ckp code, or no? That's funny, I never threw P0300 even w/ my chain stretched 1/2" and my vvt rattling around. I hope this is just something stupid.

I am not sure on how the MAF cal will play into this (since I do not have an AP... I know I suck...hahha) All I do know is if those 2 criteria are not met, then the code will be set.

On the P0300 code, unless the mechanical timing slipped (or the other 10 items that the service manual states) it would not set this code.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon I am not sure on how the MAF cal will play into this (since I do not have an AP... I know I suck...hahha) All I do know is if those 2 criteria are not met, then the code will be set. On the P0300 code, unless the mechanical timing slipped (or the other 10 items that the service manual states) it would not set this code.

I should just bump my idle from 950 to like 1,200 so it idles at 3 g/s and it'll never see the fucker again, lol.

[SilverDemon]

Hahaha... in theory that might work, but if the sensor is slow to respond, or erratic, then it might still set the code.

You have the shop manual, correct? It is very easy to check the wiring for shorts/opens with a basic multimeter.

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon Hahaha... in theory that might work, but if the sensor is slow to respond, or erratic, then it might still set the code. You have the shop manual, correct? It is very easy to check the wiring for shorts/opens with a basic multimeter.

Just the one that's on here, but I have to download it again as I recently formatted the aids off my laptop. I have a multimeter too. Just no where to work... waiting to hear if I can use my buddy's garage (it's up to his wife as they have a newborn, etc etc).

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon I am not sure on how the MAF cal will play into this (since I do not have an AP... I know I suck...hahha) All I do know is if those 2 criteria are not met, then the code will be set. On the P0300 code, unless the mechanical timing slipped (or the other 10 items that the service manual states) it would not set this code.

Ok. This is what the service manual says

2011-12-18_0741 - CrownImperial's library

So yes, I don't see either how VVt could be related to this. Just wondering why superskater said it was VVT related.

[chimmike]

Tomas, I think you brought up VVT earlier and need to just narrow the crank sensor out first without thinking VVT at all.

Rent a TDC tool and properly set the crank sensor according to the fsm, see if that helps. Then we'll go from there. If VVT actuator was bad, you could hear chain slap, and there'd be a rattle can sound for about a second after startup.

[Tokay444]

Vvt doesn't mean chain slap.
That's tensioner/chain stretch.

[chimmike]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Vvt doesn't mean chain slap. That's tensioner/chain stretch.

I had marks in my VC due to VVT actuator going and allowing extra chain 'freedom'.

[Tokay444]

Hmm.
I believe that's culmination of the three problems all together.

[chimmike]

It's highly possible. There are very few members who track their cars like Tomas does.

[Tokay444]

Did you replace your tensioner and chain at the same time as the vvt.

[atvfreek]

dougefresh_, I would give a good visual inspection of the harness going to the ckp sensor. If its a new sensor, then it can really only be wiring or pcm that causes a circuit failure code., and i highly doubt its the pcm. I would also check all your ground connections... Can you pinpoint around the time you started having this code come up, and what mods you were playing with/installing. If so look in those areas for something the is out of place or rubbing.



Tappin

[Tomas]

ok. I have a short/ continuity between terminal C and ground on the CKP plug.
I'll come back later and report what I find. I am gonna try tracing the cable to the ECU harness

[dougefresh_]

Originally Posted by atvfreek dougefresh_, I would give a good visual inspection of the harness going to the ckp sensor. If its a new sensor, then it can really only be wiring or pcm that causes a circuit failure code., and i highly doubt its the pcm. I would also check all your ground connections... Can you pinpoint around the time you started having this code come up, and what mods you were playing with/installing. If so look in those areas for something the is out of place or rubbing.

The only thing that changed since going BT was I added the venturi set up (but that was shortly after install), and then I put the egr back on for inspection. The code seem to come up out of the blue, and DJ told me not to sweat it, if it was just once. Well, once it kept coming back, that's when I checked the vvt, and sure enough it was shot. It got to the point where I'd throw that code every 5 miles. They still threw it within 5 miles after the vvt fix, which is why they put in the new sensor.

Skates had told me to check for little bits of metal in my oil when I do my oil change. He was thinking that perhaps some small bits of metal maybe got hung up in the sensor I think. I'm going to ask him, because I wanted to know how that happens w/ a bad vvt.
superskaterxes

[SilverDemon]

Crank sensor will not pick up metal from the oil (the sensor is external), it can pick up metal from road debris. The cam sensor, however, will pick up metal from the oil, and I have cleaned it before for this reason (shortly after the built motor was installed)

I am voting on a bad wiring harness/plug.... but check it out before buying anything.

[Tomas]

Well it it not a connection issue as far as I can tell. I meassured pretty much everything the manual says to measure except AC current with an oscilloscope on the sensor.

Gonna get a sensor and see if that fixes it.

But its weird. I've had bad sensors on other cars and they would not run at all. Disconnectiong the sensor on the MS3 will also not let it get started. Right now it idles a little rough and pig rich. AFR's in the 9's. It also stutters on throttle tip in and its overall undriveable. I am going to guess we have a HAL optical sensor and not a variable reluctance one. May be this can happen with HAL only as opposed the VR?

I find it extremely hard to believe the toothed wheel got somehow dis-aligned or anything mechanical. Everything looks ok visually. No rattle can noises or anything else. The toothed wheel also looks completely straight and not dinged in any way.

[bmylez]

I believe the cam sensor is Hall but the crank sensor is reluctance...

[Tomas]

^^^ I think you are right actually. I put a wrench to it while meassuring voltage and it haz magnetizm.

[bmylez]

I don't have problems like you're having...but they are similar. I have a thread right under this one talking about idling a little rich *and* the car occasionally falls on its face when I give it high throttle input, then all of a sudden, it gets up and goes. It's the worst in 1st gear. If I slam it at let's say 3500 rpm, I almost smack my head on the dashboard, then the car comes alive a second later. It also seems to richen up a lot on tip-in. I have a log showing it dipping to 10.8 AFR when I punch it in 3rd, then it slowly goes back to target.

Our problems *might* be related, but yours is much worse.

[SilverDemon]

Tomas and bmylez, are both of your cars built? Or, have they had the timing components removed and reinstalled?

My timing slipped about 1/2 of a tooth on the crank pulley, and the cams were also just a touch out of alignment....although my car did not set a 335 code, it would set a p0300 code and run rich at idle. The car did not make any noises as far as sounding like anything was hitting i.e. valves tapping the tops of the pistons. This is just a stab, but you guys might check mechanical timing (if you haven't already). It seems that we have all had something in common with these issues, just different end results...

[Tokay444]

What are your guys' ignition advance at idle?
It should be a pretty steady 10*

[crazyp]

I get the code randomly also. So much so That I have started not clearing it. It will go away on its own then a week later it will come back. some days it will come back in a couple of days, other times right away. Cold days seem worse. Its just so random. My car doesnt suffer performance wise at all.

[bmylez]

Originally Posted by SilverDemon Tomas and bmylez, are both of your cars built? Or, have they had the timing components removed and reinstalled? My timing slipped about 1/2 of a tooth on the crank pulley, and the cams were also just a touch out of alignment....although my car did not set a 335 code, it would set a p0300 code and run rich at idle. The car did not make any noises as far as sounding like anything was hitting i.e. valves tapping the tops of the pistons. This is just a stab, but you guys might check mechanical timing (if you haven't already). It seems that we have all had something in common with these issues, just different end results...

I do have a built motor, yes. Previous owner had it built. I don't have the timing tools, so I have no way of checking mechanical timing, but I've also NEVER had a crank related CEL. No misfires, nothing. The only codes I've thrown since I've noticed my whacky fuel trims are lean at idle one week, then it went to rich at idle the next week, haha. Now, the trims don't stay positive or negative long enough to throw a code. The hesitation to accelerate has me scratching my head.

Originally Posted by Tokay444 What are your guys' ignition advance at idle? It should be a pretty steady 10*

Are you sure this is standard across our cars? I looked at my log and it actually varies a fair amount. Bounces between 11 and 13.5.

[Tokay444]

Yes.
10* at idle is the the factory setting.
Your sensor could be out of position.

[bmylez]

I just aligned it yesterday. The line on the sensor is smack dab in the middle of the 20th tooth. One thing, though...the fuckin shop that built the motor broke one of the bolts that holds the sensor, so it has some back and forth play, but I lined it up as best I could. I was thinking of checking the air gap, since I just read about it in the manual. If airgap is off, I'm sure that will affect it.