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 Old 04-04-2011, 10:55 PM   #1
 
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Default Part throttle knock question???

I am getting 6.0 part throttle knock when cruising and very slightly letting off the throttle. If I let off throttle completely it goes to 0.0. If I hold the throttle steady when it starts to get knock retard it slowly goes to 0.0, but if I let off slightly it goes to 6.0 again. If I go wot even if it's reading 6.0 kr it goes to 0.0 instantly. Just wanted to know if anyone else has seen this and is it the normal pt knock I've read about. I never get more than 0.7 to 1.0 of kr at wot.Needed you guys input. I've been monitoring things since I changed timing chain and tensioner. Tryin to see if this is the norm
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 Old 04-05-2011, 04:40 AM   #2
 
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forget about it, it's perfectly normal at part throttle. its just the car adjusting timing for mpg's.

search there are plenty of threads like this.
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 Old 04-05-2011, 06:56 AM   #3
 
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Thanks! That's what I found searching the forum. Just like to hear it from fellow msf members. Lot of you all have much more knowledge about the idiosyncrocies of this little fagwagon than I. I knew some pt knock was normal but wasn't sure how much,cause I didn't start monitoring till my timing chain slack was causing a shit ton of audible kr and stuttering, so I have never seen what the kr is suppose to actually be doing.
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 Old 04-05-2011, 09:38 AM   #4
 
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its been posted about numerous times, theres debate on if it false knock or true knock. ive tried adjusted timing which never got it to go away. its completey random when it occurs.

I only worry when its large amounts like 6-7 degrees. Make me wonder. inthe mean time i just let off the gas when it does it then get back on
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 Old 04-05-2011, 09:52 AM   #5
 
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there is no need to let off and the reason why changing timing does nothing cause the ecu still wants to maximize timing for fuel efficiency until it hits that point of knock then it backs off. by letting off you don't let the ecu learn that timing at part throttle so it will just continue the process. this is why I stopped monitoring knock or monitoring at all unless i'm really beating on the car.
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 Old 04-05-2011, 09:54 AM   #6
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Sounds like the OP has something loose under the hood.
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 Old 04-05-2011, 12:19 PM   #7
 
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Nothing loose. Checked everything more than a few times. If I'm at a constant cruz it doesn't get kr. Only does it when I let off throttle from a steady Cruz. Like when you top a hill and have to let off a little to maintain your speed, it goes to 6.0 kr and drops to 0.0 kr over the next 5 to 6 seconds. I thought it was random at first but the more I studied it I saw the pattern. I can almost make it knock on command by modulating the throttle like I explained above. Just curious if you guys get the same shit.
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 Old 04-05-2011, 12:30 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by cbspeed3 View Post
.... I can almost make it knock on command by modulating the throttle like I explained above. Just curious if you guys get the same shit.

Uhm, no.... If you are SURE there is nothing vibrating (resonant frequency, not flopping loose) then you may be running real lean at part throttle.

A few deg of KR once in a while (not at WOT) is fairly normal, but 5-6 sounds a bit excessive to me.
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 Old 04-05-2011, 02:12 PM   #9
 
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Fuel ratios look good. 14.7 for light throttle and cruzin. Goes to 0.0 kr instantly if I go wot. Never get above 1.0 kr at wot. Only wit the slight depression og the pedal is when I get it. It might not be 5 to 6 second, just guessing. It goes down by increments. 6.0, 5.0, 3.5, 2.8,........ Till it hits zero. I will not get kr again unless I let of the pedal just a bit, it's like a kr sweet spot. Fuel trims are within +\-7%. The only lean I ever see is when I punch the gas hard I will get 15.0 for a split second and then the afr drops like it should and I don't get any knock during acceleration.
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 Old 04-05-2011, 05:02 PM   #10
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When cruising the engine will start at 6 degrees of knock retard and count backward to zero. This is not the engine knocking. It is the ecu maximizing spark timing. Knock is audible.
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 Old 04-05-2011, 08:10 PM   #11
 
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Ok I toke you fellas advice and started to look for loose shit under hood. Didn't find anything so I looked deeper since I just replaced timing chain and tensioner I pulled the valve cover just to take a look. Everything looked good and right when I was bout to button everything up I noticed the vvt solenoid was loose, the 10pm bolt that holds it down was backed out about 1/8 inch or so. Tightened it down and put it back together. First thing I noticed is my ltft's went from-6.0 to 1.3 at idle and all other break points started to change as well. And the pt kr is much better. I will check back in after a few more miles to let it continue to relearn. But I think that was the issue. Funny cause I never touched that bolt before today
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 Old 04-06-2011, 03:46 AM   #12
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Sweet. But the ecu is programmed to count backwards from 6 degrees of knock retard to zero at part throttle cruising to maximize efficiency. Good find though. Probably aided in preventing some other kind of catastrophic failure.
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 Old 04-06-2011, 06:20 AM   #13
 
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Yeah, I'm sure a bolt bouncing around in the valve train wouldn't be too good
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 Old 04-06-2011, 03:32 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by cbspeed3 View Post
Ok I toke you fellas advice and started to look for loose shit under hood. Didn't find anything so I looked deeper since I just replaced timing chain and tensioner I pulled the valve cover just to take a look. Everything looked good and right when I was bout to button everything up I noticed the vvt solenoid was loose, the 10pm bolt that holds it down was backed out about 1/8 inch or so. Tightened it down and put it back together. First thing I noticed is my ltft's went from-6.0 to 1.3 at idle and all other break points started to change as well. And the pt kr is much better. I will check back in after a few more miles to let it continue to relearn. But I think that was the issue. Funny cause I never touched that bolt before today
Told ya so! Nah Nah Na Nah Nah! I've found many of the PT KR issues are indeed "false". There are many things under the hood that can buzz/rattle at various resonant freqs and be heard by the knock sensor...
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 Old 04-06-2011, 05:19 PM   #15
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Not to be rude, but I bet he'll still get 6 degrees of timing retard counting down to zero at part throttle cruising. It's just what the ecu does.
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 Old 04-06-2011, 08:02 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Tokay444 View Post
Not to be rude, but I bet he'll still get 6 degrees of timing retard counting down to zero at part throttle cruising. It's just what the ecu does.
Not being rude either, but whadda you wanna bet? 6 deg of KR is NOT "normal".
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 Old 04-06-2011, 08:21 PM   #17
 
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+1^^^^^
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 Old 04-06-2011, 11:03 PM   #18
 
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Yes I still get 6.0 pt kr, but it counts down almost instantly and it doesnt do it as much as before. My ltft's went from -5.5 at idle to -1.6, fuel trims at all the other break points got closer to zero as well. I think the solenoid for vvt was so lose it wasn't adjusting timing correctly. Got the same wacky fuel trims when vvt and timing chain was bad on my car. Thanks everyone
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 Old 04-07-2011, 04:04 AM   #19
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I have a completely stock motor on a stock tune, and when cruising on the highway, my dashhawk routinely displays 6-5-4-3-2-1-0 in the knock retard field. It's not knock. It's timing being pulled by the ecu for fuel maximization and a lot of people know about it. It's not that your car is knocking. The sensor isn't hearing any knock at all most likely. It's just what the ecu does to save you gas. But I digress.
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 Old 04-07-2011, 06:40 AM   #20
 
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You could be right, it is labeled knock ratard. It could just be the ecu pulling timing. Will we ever really know if it's knock or timing being pulled to prevent knock?????
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 Old 04-07-2011, 06:46 AM   #21
 
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if you actually had knock that high you would hear it
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 Old 04-07-2011, 06:57 AM   #22
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I thought that it was common knowledge that the ecu pulls timing like this at cruising between 2800 and 4500 rpm to maximize economy.
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 Old 04-07-2011, 09:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Tokay444 View Post
I have a completely stock motor on a stock tune.....
I'm going to step out of this thread and leave you guys to yourselves. I should have known better.
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 Old 04-07-2011, 09:17 AM   #24
 
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A great way to solve this issue is to log kr, closed loop etc, and compare logs @ light load and part throttle conditions.
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 Old 04-07-2011, 09:23 AM   #25
 
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My dashhawk is on and monitoring knock every time i drive and i've never seen this backwards count from 6. maybe the australian ECU is different
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 Old 04-07-2011, 09:27 AM   #26
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Cruise steady at 120km/h in sixth for about ten minutes and watch it.
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 Old 04-07-2011, 09:30 AM   #27
 
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Originally Posted by Toddy22587 View Post
My dashhawk is on and monitoring knock every time i drive and i've never seen this backwards count from 6. maybe the australian ECU is different
See @Tokay444 's post above.
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 Old 04-07-2011, 02:00 PM   #28
 
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The only audible knock I have heard is when timing chain and vvt was bad and it registered 8.0 on my dashhawk. And this happened several times and it was always 8.0. So you may not hear 6.0 kr.
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 Old 04-07-2011, 02:07 PM   #29
 
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I think the ecu advances timing, to increase fuel economy, until it detects knock, then it pulls timing back. It rides the edge of the knock threshold for fuel economy. I knew this before I made this thread. I was just curious if other people was seeing it (kr) as I described, the count backward from 6 to 0.

Just paranoid since the timing chain vvt issues I've had.

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 Old 04-07-2011, 02:14 PM   #30
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I see 6 counting down to zero every time I cruise steady at about 3000 rpm. If I floor it, or let go, it goes immediately to 0.
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 Old 05-28-2011, 02:10 PM   #31
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UP!

When I'm getting this part throttle Knock and then going WOT, my car still knock! That's should turn back to 0° in OL, does it?
But when I WOT again, no Knock!

Do you know what cause this issue?
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 Old 05-28-2011, 02:19 PM   #32
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english please.
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 Old 05-28-2011, 02:24 PM   #33
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Sorry for my bad english, I live in Europe...
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 Old 12-12-2011, 08:00 AM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by Tokay444 View Post
I see 6 counting down to zero every time I cruise steady at about 3000 rpm. If I floor it, or let go, it goes immediately to 0.
sorry to revive, but was just doing some reading, and this is the exacttttt same tihng that happens to me, jsut good knowing its normal
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 Old 12-19-2011, 11:38 AM   #35
 
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I wanted to add to this thread. I am with the theory that PT kr is caused by too much timing advance.

I recently started increasing low load timing to improve mpg which resulted in high counts of pt kr.
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 Old 12-19-2011, 12:03 PM   #36
 
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Originally Posted by RichieRichness View Post
I wanted to add to this thread. I am with the theory that PT kr is caused by too much timing advance.

I recently started increasing low load timing to improve mpg which resulted in high counts of pt kr.
if that is the case. We would have to pull up to 6 degrees timing in low loads,And determine if when it occurs its only use the CL timing table. Could be using the part throttle timing.

It seems everything i try to catch it in a log it never happens.

Edit: it occured quite a bit on me on my trip to ny for the holiday, it only seemed to occur before reaching full operating temp, usually around 170 from what i could tell by monitoring the dashhawk. Almost did it everytime i hit the on ramp after a nap. Ive noticed it most commonly just before full operating temp on my ways to work in the morning. And it does not occur in the summer months for me. I feel its related to ambient temps, and coolant temps, as well as possible timing
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 Old 12-19-2011, 12:12 PM   #37
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I have cruise know for almost my entire drive to work every moning.
3200rpm in 6th.
Just repeats the backward count from 6 every kilometer or so.
Sometimes it doesn't start as high as 6, and sometimes it doesn't get to zero before it jumps back up and starts counting down again.
I only see low events of WOT kr with 91 octane and never any WOT kr with 94.
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 Old 12-19-2011, 02:48 PM   #38
 
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strange because i never get it while on cruise control. its always shortly after a shift in higher guys, withing 5 secs of a shift when slowly on the gas.

i cruised at that for about 4 hrs at a time the other day with not one once of knock.
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 Old 12-19-2011, 07:41 PM   #39
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I have never once turned cruise control on.
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 Old 12-19-2011, 07:51 PM   #40
 
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I have never seen that level of PT knock in 6th gear cruising. I have probably driven 500 highway miles in the past week, and my AP was monitoring knock the whole time. I never witnessed the backwards countdown Tokay mentions.
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